D-Day looms For Skyhawks

[Samuel]

And you think you have a problem---? The RNZAF CAS is currently directing all commanders to place "leadership of change" at the top of their priorities in anticipation of a Govt. announcement that its strike capability is to be scrapped. CAS has said, "As your CAS and an airman with some 39 years' service, I cannot ignore the deep disappointment you will feel--.The RNZAF has a professional reputation second to none, and our mission will continue to be --to operate with professionalism and integrity".

That reputation was born from the time of 75 Sqn Wellingtons/Lancaster operating as part of the RAF. The very number 75 was gifted by the RAF (there is no RAF Sqn of that number.) Then operations with the RAF in every theatre post-war.

Politicians, particularly those with false. misleading,ideology driven beliefs really piss me off!

Now where is that bottle of single Malt

Edited as a result of finding not one but two bottles!



[This message has been edited by Samuel (edited 04 May 2001).]

[cribble]

The treasonous b*tch has actually done it. The A4s are to go within 6 months. In the old days she would pay with her head on a stake outside a city wall. i still find this image remarkably calming.

[Jackonicko]

The RAF will soon have 24 'spare' Tornado F3s back from the Italian lease. Alternatively, there are at least that many low-houred Jag instructional airframes, each with 2,000 hours gone of their 6,500 hour lives. The latter could be Jag 97s for the cost of a major and about £500k per jet.

Either might be a come-down after an APG-66 equipped A-4M (but I doubt it) or the promise of an F-16C. But surely either would be better than nothing.

[Tobbes]

Well, what is there to say? Firstly, secondly and thirdly, I'm appalled by this piece of errant stupidity and wanton vadalism, (and, dare I say it historical desecration). What will this mean for the "closer defence realtionship" with Australia? A Herc or an Orion (whatever their other capabilities) is not much use as a missile simulator in support of the RAN!

(As an aside, I believe that 75 Sqn was transferred to the RNZAF immediately after the Great War, not WWII.)

However, Jacko is quite right. Surplus Jag (Tonkas presumably too expensive) upgraded to '97 (GR3A) standard would provide a credible ground attack and recce capibility for c. 15-20 years that is deployable (in support of UN ops), is PGM capable (politically restrictive RoE), and is reasonably cheap. Sounds like a perfect solution (and therefore extremely improbable.)

Appalling! My best wishes to the Air Attack Force.

Tobbes

[ORAC]

75 Sqn was RAF up to April 1940 (Anson then Wellington). The RAF sqn disbanded on 8 April 40; The New Zealand Wellington Flight at Feltwell was reformed as 75 (New Zealand)Sqn on same day. Sqn was disbanded on 15 Oct 45 and the sqn number formally transferred to the RNZAF.

During the war 75 Sqn was equipped with Wellingtons, Stirlings and Lancasters.

RAIDS FLOWN:
Wellington: 291 bombing; 24 mine laying; 4 leaflet; 1 photo recce.
Stirlings: 103 bombing; 107 mine laying.
Lancaster; 190 bombing; 18 mine laying; 1 leaflet.

SORTIES & LOSSES:
Wellington: 2,540. 75 ac lost (2.9%)
Stirling: 1,736. 72 ac lost (4.1%)
Lancaster: 3,741. 47 ac lost (1.3%)

Victoria Cross: Sgt J A Ward, 7/8 July 41, Munster. Later KIA on raid on Hamburg 15/16 Sept 41.

Carried out fourth highest number of bombing raids in Bomber Command heavy Sqns.

Flew most sorties in 3 Group and in the whole of Bomber Command.

Suffered the second highest casualties in Bomber Command.

Believed to have dropped the third greatest tonnage of bombs in Bomber Command (approx 21,600 tons) and second highest total of mines (2,344).

[This message has been edited by ORAC (edited 04 May 2001).]

[Samuel]

There , will be NO replacement, Jag or otherwise. The treehuggers, are dismantling the whole strike infrastructure, against the advise of five former Chiefs of Defence Staff and two former Defence Secretaries, all of whose views were dismissed out of hand.

My bet is the Maachi 339 will be next if she survives the next election. There are dangers to the whole technical trade infrastructure of course, not to mention Air New Zealand' prime source of pilots!

75 (NZ) Sqn was formed in England as a result of an RNZAF collection of 30 Wellingtons, which at the outbreak of war, were promptly offered to a grateful UK along with the crews.They thus became 75 (NZ.)Though there was an air force before WW2, it did not become the RNZAF until 1934., with very close links to the RAF of course.

[Suit]

Tobbes,

The actual a/c flown are not the issue here. What the NZ Govt has done is to make a decision that the nation does not need the capability at all, in any shape or form.

With no A-4 force there will be no need for the MB339 fleet, you can guarantee that they will be next to go. With the P-3 fleet losing it's ASW role and fit, and consideration being given to having a contractor take over and operate the fleet in an environmental partol capacity, where does this leave the RNZAF?
Even the Seasprite fleet is at risk as the RNZN faces losing it's frigate force.

Even at it's most extreme periods in power in the 70's the loony-left element in the Labour party here never proposed such drastic reductions in a nations defence capability.

Sad to see, it flies in the face of what every other nation on the pacific rim is doing and is comfirmation that the labour party in NZ is about as in touch with the real world as the Conservative party is here in the UK!

------------------
If the suit fits.........

[Samuel]

You're remarkably well-informed Suit! It was Labour of course which dismantled ANZUS by banning US ships from NZ ports unless they were nuclear free and said so, which of course they wouldn't.That cost the RNZAF in a way, because NZ ceased to be an ally, and had to buy spares from Lockheed instead of the USAF/USN, So the cost of operations spiralled upwards.

Looney left is absolutely on the nose.

[John Eacott]

The chances of NZ sorting itself out is currently quite remote, since their voting system is now so peculiar that it has allowed all sorts of minor parties a voice, and none of them are likely to allow a change back to a more representative voting system, since they would then effectively vote themselves out of power.

The whole system there is collapsing rapidly, not just defence, but all social services as well. Health is as bad as you can get. My father in law had to wait 18 months for a scan, having been diagnosed for a "pinched nerve" in his back. Tumour on the spine, not much hope. So much for the NZ health system, and if a Labour government can't get that to even partially work, there's no hope for the military.

[Chinook]

Gentlemen,

As an expat Kiwi who spent a number of years OHMS in the NZ Army I feel acutely for the RNZAFs pain.

But, if we see the big picture, if NZ can't afford health care or a decent education system, why thwn should defence be a sacred cow?

Sadly NZ never got the bombing in WW2 that it would have needed to develop a mature idea of regional defence requirements.

Remember all you NZ servicemen and women, you are there to do the biding of the government, and sometimes (Gallipoli, Sommme, Greece, Crete, et al) they f&*k it up.

You're not dead, so get up and get on.

Beers on me next time I meet a Kiwi in sdervice of the country.

[Charlie Luncher]

I was involved with your P3 upgrade program people so they could take our experience and learn from it. Their plans were not over ambitious or expensive but a capability lost will never be recovered and I feel it will be lost.

Happily there is no threat to Kiwi for now, come to think there is little threat to anyone in the developed world.
Until some political arse creates one and then they will call on those left to rush to defend their morals especially in an election year.

We will lose lives to save money for our masters and do. I would not encourage the US way of welcoming heroes? back from a bump with a fighter. But we currently have a generation untouched by war and hardship and thus life is cheap and respect is low for those that secure and have secured their future.
Ill raise a glass to the demise of the RNZAF just dont give me any of that purple sh*t!

[Dan Winterland]

What about NZs standing international defence commitment, the Five Powers Defence Agreement?

It's a shame, I enjoyed working with the NZ A4s.

[Samuel]

This is straying off the subject a little, but who, other than an expat and an Ocker who presumably lives inside the black stump, can justify such outrageous statements?

Monash University (Australian for those that may not have heard of it) has publicly stated that NZ'ers are generally better equipped educationally. Presumably all those well-educated immigrants from South Africa, the UK, and yes, even the US, see something you don't! And our cows are sane!

And pray tell what the hell not having been bombed has got to do with a defence attitude? The US has never been bombed either! NZ has always pulled its weight, and in fact has fought in every British war (and one American) since the South African War. Including the Gulf. We simply love other peoples wars. And yes, Gallipoli, Somme, Greece, Crete etc. were all British cock-ups.NZ (and Australia) simply provided the bodies. The RAF accepted NZ'ers in huge numbers, more per capita than any other Commonwealth country in fact.They did very well too! The BoB was led by Kiwi,(Park) as was the Desert Air Force, (Conningham) Two of the top ten RAF aces were Kiwis. There has been at least one post-war CAS RAF, and at least one CDS (Elworthy.)AVM Sir Kenneth Hayr RAF, of Gulf War involvement is a Kiwi ( and still flying his Nanchang (or is it a Yak?) for those contempories!).

Remember that Defence in a Westminster system of democracy is a tool of government. Have a go at the politicians by all means, but leave the troops alone! And keep to the thread!

[This message has been edited by Samuel (edited 06 May 2001).]

[Paterbrat]

Err yes Samuel, about straying from the thread. Skyhawks demise I believe

[Chinook]

Samuel,

Is that spleen vented at me or someone else?

email me if I have been misunderstood, for in NO way do I seek to diminish the efforts of NZ in the world .... merely pointing out that the NZ economy and society may not necessarily be able to afford to support the system that brought us the first female suffrage, atom split, social welfare system, free education, labour relations act the world ever saw.

I love my country, I will always ove it ... even when it is driven to obscurity by politicians and bean counters

Ake Ake Kia Kaha

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Park it, tie it down, lock it, lets go to the pub!!!!!

[Samuel]

Quite right Chinook! My sincere apologies! I was simply expressing my frustration having just seen that bloody woman on TV yet again espousing her ideology based argument for destroying a hugely important infrastructure.

It now appears that new Blackhawks are on the shopping list, as well as an AS 330, which will presumably spend a lot of time carting bloody politicians around! And the Herks are to be upgraded rather than replaced with the J, which might come as a relief to some given the problems!

[Visual Approach]

If, like me, you would still like to see at least one A4 in the skies over NZ then check out
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum12/HTML/005449.html

...and/or email [email protected]

[mrfish]

If you want a real laugh....disbanding the A4 and Macchi Sqns will leave the RNZAF a grand total of 33 acft on the inventory! (Assuming the Bell 47, yes we still fly them, counts)

You have to wonder at an Airstaff with 1 AVM, 4 AIRCDREs and 16 GPCAPTs.....nearly an aeroplane each.

'Tis the thin end of the wedge me thinks. Time to go.......

On that note if anyone has the appropriate email address for the RAF and RAAF appointer we have a dozen QFIs and QWIs looking for work...not to mention the young lads (and lady) who are mad keen to ply their trade somewhere where they maybe appreciated.

So long......

[Girt_bar]

Any advise for someone who has an interview with the RNZAF shortly?

Should I bother going??!!!??

[RATBOY]

A long ago U. S, president Calvin Coolidge once said "Can't we buy one aeroplane and let the aviators take turns flying it?" Looks like NZ is almost there.

[ozbiggles]

I thought God defend New Zealand was a national anthem, not a defence policy.

[Jackonicko]

Now let me get this right. An Island Nation getting rid of all Air Defence capability, and getting rid of anything capable of actually hitting an invading force?

If I were the king of Tonga, or the Tasmanian Mafia, I'd be thinking hard...

Seriously, though, isn't this the sort of lunacy that one AVM, four Air Commodores and sixteen Group Captains should be resigning over - en masse, having first briefed NZ tv, radio and newspapers as to their reasons for doing so?

Those who stay and do their best to implement these plans are effectively condoning them.

Today's news release reads:

You all will have heard or read about the Prime Minister’s Defence statement delivered earlier this afternoon in the house.

There will be many in the Air Force who will be deeply disappointed with the decision to disband the Air Combat Force by the end of this calendar year. However, the decision should not have come as a surprise. Earlier last year, Mr Quigley correctly highlighted the pressures on government regarding future defence funding and he urged for an ordering of priorities.

The Prime Minister has signalled on a number of occasions that her government has not been able to lift the Air Combat Force to sufficient levels of priority to justify the funds it would have needed over the next decade or so. Individually, we all will have opinions or views on this, but these sorts of decisions are what a government is for.

Only a government can decide national priorities in the light of its wide ranging, whole-of-government budgetary pressures. Our role is to provide advice, and that has been done very comprehensively throughout the course of the defence review process over the last year. Now that a decision has been made, it is our job to implement it. That we will do.

The Prime Minister’s other announcements are welcomed, particularly the Maritime Patrol Force, as it now removes the doubts over the future of this role. These announcements bode well for an active, modern and challenged RNZAF. Sure, the RNZAF will be smaller, but it will be very focused. It will require just the same sort of commitment, integrity, professionalism and teamwork as today.

Now to the broad effects of the government’s direction.


The Air Combat Force
The A4 Skyhawk and Macchi fleets will continue their flying tasks until 1 Dec 01, although we will cease live weapon useage after 1 July 01.

We will then withdraw No.2 Squadron from Nowra and disband Nos.2, 14 and 75 Squadrons by 21 Dec 01.

We expect that the 17 A4 aircraft will be sold off on an “as is” basis and they will be put into storage awaiting sale in 2002.

The Macchi fleet of 17 are a more modern and attractive item and are expected to be sold as a “going concern”. They will need to be maintained for sale in a flying condition.

Personnel
Clearly the disbandment of the Air Combat Force will have major effects on personnel. There are 600 posts directly associated with the air attack force. Not all are filled. Some affected personnel will be able to be moved to fill other vacancies within the Air Force, but we expect to have in the order of 200 uniformed personnel and 55 civilians surplus to establishment by the end of 2001, and a further 100 uniformed personnel surplus by mid 2002. Obviously, there is much detail yet to be worked out and we will do everything possible to re-deploy staff (who may wish it) to any available position that they could fill within the other two services, let alone within the Air Force.

Strategic Plan implications
Planning already announced and in train to close Hobsonville and move No.3 Squadron (helicopters) to Ohakea will continue.

Plans to move the initial flying training units with CT4-E aircraft (i.e. PTS and CFS) to Woodbourne will now be cancelled, as the imperatives for the move have disappeared now that facilities, flying training air space, and infrastructure at Ohakea will become available.

So the focus of operations at Ohakea will become initial flying training and helicopter operations. I expect that later next year we may also move No.42 Squadron (King Air twin engine training unit) to Ohakea as well.

We will have to develop some means of supplementary capacity to retrain those former Air Combat Force pilots that we wish to move into the Fixed Wing Transport or P3 operations. No.42 Squadron will be unable to raise its training capacity with its present resources.

Summary
We might have lost one of our roles, but our mission remains the same, “to carry out military air operations in defence of New Zealand’s strategic interests, with professionalism, integrity and teamwork”.

Note those qualities, as they are dependent upon our people, not our equipment or our roles. We have always recruited good people and will continue to do so. We train them well and mould them into a motivated, well-focused professional team

We, and our predecessors, have served on, or supported, operations all around the globe and we have built a reputation as professional military air operators that is second to none.

This reputation has not been a result of our tasks or our equipment. It has been earned as a result of how we meet those tasks and how we operate equipment. It is my expectation that this reputation will be maintained and enhanced as we now move to implement the government’s directed changes quickly and effectively.

ENDS. For further information please contact Squadron Leader Ric Cullinane, Air Force Public Relations Officer, Ph 025 443 651


[This message has been edited by Jackonicko (edited 08 May 2001).]

[Samuel]

Those words were spoken by CAS Jacko, and the body language, though carefully controlled, said a lot more!I guess the RAAF will gain some FJ pilots, and maybe some lineys, particularly the cracker-stackers.
As for resignations, that happens with no more frequency in NZ than it does in the UK I'm afraid.People with that sort of courage are usually gone before they make Wg/Cdr, let alone air rank!

"Without armament, there is no need for an sir force". Lord Trenchard.

[Chinook]

This whole sad situation reminds me of a piece on NZ military history usually lost in obscurity known as 'The Four Colonels Affair'. Four WW1 veterans who had stayed on in the territorials were so disgusted with the downgrading of NZ's defence power, coupled with a disturbing European situation, that they went to the GOC at the time with their troubles: Ignored. So they went to the governor General: Ignored.

In a last resort they wrote an open letter to the NZ Herald: Published.

That woke up the governement of the day and thay acted decisively ... sacking all of them.

When was this? ... 1938

Moral courage in the face of command ineptitude is a fine gesture, but it does the poor baggy assed private little good to see his BEST chance of a decent commander fall upon his own sword as a gesture ...

Stay gentlemen, and serve with honour until the idiots move on.

And what happened to the four Colonels?

Three were returned to ther active list in 1939 and commanded Battalions in WW2. Two were killed, one was captured.

The fourth remained home (against his will) to command the Home Guard.

No-one ever said 'thanks' for their foresight.

And the government pretended nothing happened .....



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Park it, tie it down, lock it, lets go to the pub!!!!!

[A7E Driver]

I must be missing something. Are you guys really complaining because a 1960/70s technolgoy attack a/c is being retired? Would anyone really want to go into combat in a Skyhawk?

[ickle black box]

AE7,

What they had was a little, but every little counts. Why should anyone help them, when they're not even trying to help themselves.

Imagine if the UK disbanded the RAF, relying on NATO instead; afterall, they have promised to help us in conflict. Each NATO country isn't that strong, but when you put them together, a decent sized force appears.

NZ have decided to take a gamble, and leech of other countries, for defence. If WW3 breaks out, we'll inevitably be too keen to cover our own ass, long before NZ's

ickle

[Fragnasty]

And on a more political note, a few years ago a skyhawk pilot was famously quoted as being able to go and drop a bomb on parliament (among other things). The idea seems a whole lot more enticing now. We just have to make sure that it's a day when Helen is in...

[Jackonicko]

From a news group:

If a submarine sank in NZ waters and no-one in a P-3 saw it, would it gurgle?

The PM has stated clearly that there never have been, are not and never will be any subs in NZ waters. I feel like asking her for the Lotto results for next week too!

Tonight on TV she was asked about joint RNZAF/Army exercises for close support etc. Her reply was that (she was told by the Army) the two forces had only trained together 3 times in the past 30 years. I'm well advised that at 0300 this morning 75 Sqn was ready to fly a live weapons exercise with an Army unit as a close support mission, and successfully flew the sortie later in the morning. And last week they delivered 28,000 lb of bombs in an Army Forward Controller exercise. Twice in a week, so I wonder when the other time was?

[Chinook]

Never been a submarine in NZ waters my my .... what bollocks!

Ask the Japanese about it...

She is ignorant

[Samuel]

You may not be surprised to learn that there was 'spin' put on that claim too. There were numerous submarine sightings, of which she lied. The fact of the matter is that NZ is a relatively wealthy country in the South Pacific which can and has afforded to hold our own in a collective security arrangement. The cost of one of the Skyhawk Sqns, (that based in Australia )was partially carried by Australia because it was there to train the RAN Navy. That training will go into limbo until the RAAF gets the Hawk on line, as the F18 has no real interest in ships!Helen Clark however, was a member of the Lange Labour Govt. which took NZ out of Anzus, and has been waiting for an opportunity ever since to further her own pet projects at the expense of Defence.As it's not an election year, the opposition can do SFA because it will be too late next year. All the sharp end guys will be in the RAF or RAAF. Good on'em, I hope you look after them!

There has been much criticism, (and some surprisingly good investigative journalism)but one of the best pieces has come from a former RAF Lightning pilot by the name of "Ching" Fuller, who came out to fly Skyhawks and stayed for 20 years! His final quote? "She is doing away with every offensive capabilty we have."

A7 Driver: spoken with all the assurance that 200 million taxpayers can give! NZ Has 4 Million.

Black Box: Nice sentiment mate, but I think the UK decided in 1940 that NZ and Australia were too far away to defend. All military assistance has actually been one way! Did you know for example that NZ loaned a frigate to the RN during the Falklands? It never went there, but it relieved a RN Frigate in the Indian Ocean which did!

[This message has been edited by Samuel (edited 10 May 2001).]

[Kiting for Boys]

"All military assistance has actually been one way!"

I'm looking at a name tape from a sailor's cap - 'HMAS Leeuwin'. My father wore it in 1942 when he was helping to train Australian sailors. He came home in 1943 and returned to the Pacific on an LST in 1944.

Not much military assistance...but

[Jackonicko]

Kiwis head for RAAF
By Christopher Niesche, New Zealand correspondent and Robert Garran, Defence
writer
May 10, 2001
A DAY after the announcement that New Zealand would dump its 17 Skyhawk
fighter jets, personnel at the jet base at Ohakea, on the north island, were
emailing applications to join the Royal Australian Air Force.

The RAAF can expect a raft of applications from disgruntled Kiwi pilots and
technical crew following the axing of New Zealand's air combat wing, with
little being done to stop the exodus.
About 700 jobs will go when the Skyhawks stop flying at the end of the year.
Most of the staff will be offered other positions in New Zealand's defence
force, but many are expected to seek jobs overseas.
Australia faces a serious shortfall of jet fighter pilots, with many leaving
for more lucrative jobs as commercial pilots as soon as their contracts are
fulfilled.
Recent figures show there are only 11 operational pilots for Australia's 34
F-111 fighter-bombers and 42 pilots for its 71 F/A-18 Hornet fighters.
An RAAF spokesman said a decision would be made on whether to approach New
Zealand pilots after talks with the New Zealand Air Force.
A spokesman for Australian Defence Personnel Minister Bruce Scott said the
RAAF would be interested in talking to potential recruits with appropriate
skills from any country.
There are about 20 pilots trained to fly the Skyhawks, and hundreds of highly
skilled technical and support staff.
"The RAAF certainly looks attractive because it's close to home and they have
got hi-tech aircraft and a very similar ethos to New Zealand, so that's quite
popular," said Wing Commander Nick Osborne, who is considering moving to
Australia.
Of the pilots, three are based at Nowra on the NSW south coast, 11 are at
Ohakea and the others are in non-flying roles. They earn between $NZ35,000
($28,700) and $NZ65,000 ($53,300).
RAAF fighter pilots earn between $45,000 and $62,000.
New Zealand Defence Minister Mark Burton acknowledged the likelihood of staff
losses, telling The Australian: "For the pilots in particular, yesterday's
announcement obviously does mean fundamental change and understandably they
will be looking at their own best future options.
"As it always has, for some that may well include looking at the Australian
air for ce."
But it seems little will be done to retain the staff.
It is understood that when Air Vice-Marshal Don Hamilton briefed air force
staff at Ohakea on Tuesday about the changes, he told them that the defence
service would help them join the RAAF or the Royal Air Force.
Air force personnel would usually be required to give months or even years of
notice before they could quit, but it is likely the defence force would not
stand in their way if they found new jobs.

Your feedback:
Sure, NZ is an isolated nation with no apparent threats but the issue is
wider than just dealing with current threats. We don't know what sort of
environment our region will become in the next 5 or 10 years or beyond.
Nations like China and Indonesia have indicated through their actions in
recent times that New Zealand, Australia or anyone for that matter cannot
afford to be complacent. For example, the situation in East Timor could have
turned out quite differently if Indonesia has wanted to play hardball over it
and the RNZAF Skyhawks may have been required to operate in the area and
conduct sorties to deter Indonesian air force activity and protect ANZAC
troops on the ground.
We live in an unpredictable world where threats can emerge very quickly and
free nations need to be able to respond rapidly and effectively when faced
with these challenges.
Helen Clark's decision to see NZ soldiers involved in peacekeeping with
upgraded equipment is a good move but short-sighted if they do so with the
threat of an enemy's air forces attacking them.

Gentlemen Officers of RNZAF,
The news that your Liberal Government has effectively disbanded its Air Force
is hard to understand here in the US. It would seem the move is ill-conceived
and irresponsible, leaving New Zealand at the mercy of any crackpot with a
couple of fighters (China's F-8s?). No matter how far away from the world's
travails a country may seem to be, disarmament is the first step to torment
through enslavement.
I hope all the pilots are able to find work doing what they do best and that
New Zealand is not threatened from the air.

It would appear we have a New Zealand trying to obtain their defence needs on
the cheap, under the umbrella of Australia's committment to the region.
Of course we have the process of Australian Air Force- trained pilots being
snapped up by commercial airlines. The airlines obtain their pilots on the
cheap, the Australian tax payer pays through the nose once more. The New
Zealanders, the mercenaries of the air, trained by the Australian Air Force
until they then jump ship for lucrative jobs with the airlines.
If you ask me the airforce should advertise as a first class training
organisation, on receipt of lucrative government grants from a bottomless
bucket.

The ADF has an opportunity. Actually assigning RNZAF personnel for duty with
RAAF Tactical Fighter and Strike flying units has obvious synergies for both
countries concerned. Australia desperately needs to improve its numbers in
terms of aircrew and technicians. NZ needs to do all it can to retain
relevance as our ANZAC partner. Why not make this the first ANZAC defence
venture since 4 RAR(ANZAC) toured Vietnam 30 odd years ago?

[Samuel]

Last post on this subject Jacko, (I can't keep up with a Journo!).You will gather that, in my 25 years or so RAF/RNZAF service, I have never had to listen to the ideological drivel espoused by this PM and her tree-hugger cohorts. I am seriously pissed off!

I live rather comfortably, within range of some excellent wine-producing areas, the products of which I enjoy at considerably less cost than the UK, which can't get enough. Tough!

I have never been burgled, so according to the PM I should remove all the locks from my doors and bin them.

We are relative to the UK in size, and affluent with it, but not as heavily populated. I know a beach where my footprints can be the first anytime I choose, and I can park my car!

Not too far away however, are countries where corruption is rampant, and power lies with military might, purchased at the expense of the population. To call this benign is complacency of the worst order, and to insult numerous professional officers for merely doing their duty in expressing concerns is bordering on meglomania.I too, as a former officer,share their frustration.

If the RAF, and RAAF hear from any of our former warriors, look after them. They feel a bit let down at the moment, but being FJ pilots they will be unlikely to suffer any long term ego problems! Go get 'em boys!

[This message has been edited by Samuel (edited 11 May 2001).]

[Archimedes]

I think it was FM von Mannerheim [sp?] who said something along the lines of:

'Every Country has an army - either its own or one of occupation'

Given the nature of military power today, the same could be said of Air Forces, surely? From what we know of China, it is seeking a blue water capability; is reputedly after aircraft carriers, its sub fleet is constantly reported as being on the verge of massive expansion, and it has a dispute with Malaysia over the Spratleys.

Also, isn't it the case that the RNZAF A-4s, although their upgrade was some time ago, still present viable opposition (just about) to likely near-term threats (I include pilot cunning and skill in this very rough equation)? It strikes me as being egregiously short-sighted to get rid of this.

While the 'army as peace-keeper routine', is attractive, it's the start of the slippery slope whereby the army becomes a 'paramilitary plus' force, and then little more than a police force with DPM uniforms. I'd have thought that the best role for NZ, in many ways, would be to go for 'niche' status - replace the A-4 with something that will match the likely regional threat for the medium to long term [since it would seem that the top end of the regional air threat is going to be the SU-27 or earlier block F-16s ??] and maintain the P-3 force at an appropriate level.

To my mind (such as it is...) it seems that it would be far better for the RNZAF to be able to contibute an air capability to PSOs. As for land component, the ability to deploy specialist troops (the NZSAS are the sort of unit that could come in very handy in a PSO environment) would be more important. I don't for one moment denigrate the capability of the NZ army, but wonder if it wouldn't provide a better force balance for NZ if it was the army that saw some reductions.

Philosophical musings off.