No escape route

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Apologies if posted before, but I saw this and thought it was definitely worth sharing to highlight the dangers of flying out of your depth (or that of the aeroplane) around high terrain, and the impossible situation you can find yourself in very, very quickly.

Sequence of events really begins around 6:10.

Fatal Plane Crash From Inside The Plane - YouTube

This was a fatal accident...

HBB

[stickandrudderman]

Very grim indeed.
The first mistake (after electing to fly beyond capability) was to fly down the middle of the valley thereby robbing himself of the space required to make a turn and any extra lift that might be had from the updrafts close to the slope.
The second was to turn right into the higher ground, which was a very bizarre thing to do.
The third was (presumably) to apply too much bank at high altitude, especially so close to the ground.
Whilst it is grim, it is I think, a very useful educational tool and should serve as a reminder to anyone contemplating such a flight to think very carefully about it.

[peterh337]

One should fly above the MSA...

[172driver]

Sad :(

More info here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabernash,_Colorado).

Density altitude, density altitude, density altitude.....

[FlyingStone]

One should fly above the MSA...

For an IFR flight, surely... But are you suggesting that you need to be above MSA for a safe VFR flight? Area sorrounding Innsbruck has a Grid MORA of 13800ft, but you can get in from almost any direction at 6000ft, perhaps even lower.

I agree with everything stickandrudderman posted, I'd just add it's usually not the bank at high altitude or close to the ground that will kill you, it's the steep turn at low airspeed while trying to maintain altitude that will eventially turn into a disaster - like the video shows very clearly.

In the end, the theory suggests that it is always better to make a controlled flight into top of trees than an uncontrolled flight into nice wide and long grass ruwnway.

[peterh337]

My comment about the MSA was a bit tongue in cheek...

I actually know somebody who did "land" in the top of trees, having flown into a valley in some very poor weather and found themselves cut off by low cloud in all directions. The "landing" was successful but after a brief moment the aircraft crashed down as the branches gave way and some if not all of the people got pretty nasty injuries.

There is a number of videos out there of people flying into terrain. Low flying, especially among significant terrain, is a thrill for many but evidently not all of them know how to do it right. I did once go on such a flight with a local pilot in Switzerland (http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m74/peterh337/matterhorn2big.jpg) and that was great, but we were always able to climb back out.

There is a well known case in the USA where 3 Bonanzas (IIRC) departed down a canyon, one behind the other, and all three crashed into the end of it. All that was left were three triangle-shaped piles of ash.

[goldeneaglepilot]

I remember a conversation with a friend who was a fireman - he had removed peoples bodies out of cars following impact with as little as a 4" (trunk diameter) tree. They are not as frangible as people think

[Ollie Onion]

Just goes to show how quickly things can go wrong :sad:

[ShyTorque]

Yes, looks like a stall in the turn finally sealed their fate. I didn't hear any increase in engine note, so I wonder if the pilot was unaware of his airspeed until it stalled. An escape route involving a turn towards rising ground is never a good idea.

[RTN11]

I didn't hear any increase in engine note, so I wonder if the pilot was unaware of his airspeed until it stalled

Either that or he was already at full throttle at the aircraft's service or possibly even absolute ceiling.

[ShyTorque]

Possibly, but I'd have thought he would have been aware of that and even more likely to have turned away from high ground in that case.

Tragic error, whatever it was. :(

[Maoraigh1]

This video should never have got into the public domain. I’ve viewed it several times, and read the accompanying YouTube comments. They are mainly horrible. If, as one commenter says, Ronnie was the pilot’s son, it makes it even worse. I don’t see comments like this from pilots after an aerobatic accident. The NTSB report is factual, and does not speculate on what led to the stall/spin. Low flying in mountains and over forests has increased risks, but I don’t see the pilot do anything stupid on the video. Taking off from Grandby, (8207’ altitude, 5000’runway) he would be well aware of density altitude. The crash was only 2000’ above his take offaltitude. He would notice his aircraft performance as he flew close to the ridges.
The sound on the tape seems to be mainly not engine.
He correctly crosses the ridge at an angle, low, but to the right of a pass. He decides to turn at a reasonable place. To make a left turn, he first heads to the right, to get more room. The flight so far is in calm air. A steep descending turn is a standard low g manoeuvre, and he appears to have room and height for this. (The view dependson the camera lens.)
The slope he is approaching looks to be in shade, and might have a katabatic downdraft. The crucial bits of the tape are missing – just before the stall sequence. A massive downdraft, with turbulence, might have prevented him making a left turn, pushing down his right wing. Or the engine lost power. Or a control restriction. And he has no safe options. The trees are too far apart for a stall into their tops, and they are tall.

(I have only a little experience flying a Pa28 and aC172, both 180hp, solo, at similar density altitude, in Utah and Colorado . I know nothing about the Cessna L19. My valley flying experience is at low density altitude.)

[peterh337]

From the Wiki entry:

The family of the deceased had put a 20-year moratorium (via the FAA) on the release of the film to the general public with the only stipulation that it (at the FAA's request to the family of the deceased) be shown only to flight instructors at conventions and workshops. The moratorium eventually expired and was not renewed, and thus the footage effectively became "public domain."

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Maoraigh1,

I think the issue with Youtube is that, in general, those who comment are either young kids with a tiny bit of knowledge who don't yet respect the freedom that anonymity gives them, or people who go on there with a few keywords in mind to punch into the search engine (on their chosen subject), with a mission statement of spreading their 'superior' knowledge all over the domain in an attempt to be the best armchair specialist out there.

Your point is very valid though, I agree.

[peterh337]

I think the issue with Youtube is that, in general, those who comment are either young kids with a tiny bit of knowledge who don't yet respect the freedom that anonymity gives them, or people who go on there with a few keywords in mind to punch into the search engine (on their chosen subject), with a mission statement of spreading their 'superior' knowledge all over the domain in an attempt to be the best armchair specialist out there.

and put that together with the Iphone generation and you get lots of bits of diatribe in small doses instead of a smaller number of bits of diatribe in large doses :)

That's the problem with running a "blog". The comments are nearly all banal, because of the way the system works and because of the audience that is willing to comment being largely of a specific type and having only a limited capacity for writing even if they wanted to say more (Iphone users). That's why I don't do my trip writeups using blogging software.

The only times I recall Youtube comments being worth reading were where somebody posted a video of some 1960s band, and one of the members comes on and tells what he is doing now and what great times he had then :)