Sector Entries/ Holding Patterns

[newifr]

I hope somebody can assist with this.
On our Oz approach plates all the Sector Entries associated with Holding patterns are clearly marked and deciding which entry you make is relatively simple. However there are a number of Jepp Charts when operating outside Oz that just depict the Holding Patterns but with no sector entries drawn.
The problem occurs when an entry to the pattern could be close to being either a Sector 1 or Sector 2 entry and where the mental gymnastics come in to play constructing the sector entry boundaries in your head.
Is there some way that you can mentally construct the boundaries by just looking at a 360* compass rose without resorting to pen and paper and drawing the entries before determining which entry that should be performed.

Thanks.

[Scamp Damp]

Let the FMC work it out - its NEVER wrong :=

[kellykelpie]

Some people use their index finger and thumb - however I'm not completely familiar with this technique - someone else please explain (sorry Pauline).

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

I don't have any "tricks" wrt remembering which is where (110/70) and maths works for me, but I can suggest when you have a choice (and remember the 5deg of flex is heading dependant, which is why atc never give a particular sector - they don't work out your drift) the preference would be sector 2 is best, followed by a sector 1 and the sector 3 is last choice.
To understand why, look at which of the entries (when you have a choice) will have you conducting the entry closest to it's design.

Eg. If you have a 1/3 choice, the sec 3 entry will have your outbound leg a lot closer to the inbound leg. You will overshoot the turn and have to reintercept inbound. While the sec 1 will be further away on the reciprocal to the inbound, the intercept turning inbound will be easier.:ok:

[Hugh Jarse]

Jarse's Proven Process:

Left hand for a left pattern. Right hand for a right pattern.

1. When tracking directly to the hold fix, align your index finger straight ahead on the HSI.

2. Spread thumb and second finger like Mr. Spock. The angle between your index finger and thumb could be considered 110 deg (Parallel or sector 1). The angle between your index finger and second finger could be considered 70 deg (Offset or sector 2).

3. What is the OUTBOUND track of the hold? Find where it falls on your HSI. Between thumb and index finger? Sector 1. Between index finger and second finger? Sector 2. Everywhere else (in the bottom of your HSI) is Direct entry.

Piece of piss, Kellykelpie :8

[Oktas8]

First, thoroughly memorise the diagram of a standard hold with the sector divider line drawn in. (The one at 70 degrees to the inbound track.) It's necessary to be able to visualise this at a moment's notice in the cockpit, provided the rest of the picture is available.

Have you an HSI?

Align the course bar with the inbound track. Imagine the outbound track parallel with the CDI, either left or right of it.

In this picture, the holding fix is at the centre of the HSI and you imagine yourself flying from the six o'clock position to the centre of the instrument.

In most cases you'll be able to visualise which entry to do. You'll have to practise of course - perhaps on paper, with only the inbound track provided, an aircraft approaching from the bottom of the page always as if it were an HSI instead of a piece of paper.

Cheers,
O8

[Shed Dog Tosser]

Sector entries are arcaic procedures that much of the global aviation community laugh at us over, much like the NDB and shagging sheep, oh hang on, thats not us :O?

Its not that hard to wing it, Im here and need to be going that way, or arc onto the radial, or even better let the FMS work its magic.

Why we make it harder than it needs to be is beyond me.

[Wally Mk2]

Some good advice here, you guys have gotta get a life though!:ok:

Anyway technically if yr OCTA & you have an approved LRN GPS then a sector entry as we know it isn't required as such as long as you stay at or above the LSALT which you can guarantee to stay in & should know due that GPS system then you can maneuver around anyhow you like to do a sector 3 (direct)making it so simple.

All NDB's & their associated procedures (sector entries) are surveyed way out to buggery for safety reasons not that that's an excuse to go wander off 'till you get close enuf:-)
The +/- 5 deg's tolerances although a legal requirement is bloody near perfect anyway if you can steer it in TS's & and an old fixed card ADF:ok:


Wmk2

[LeadSled]

Folks,
I have used the "Three Bears" method since I was on the DC-3 --- which is when we changed from the 4 sector entry.

Think about/visulaise the three sectors;
the "big" sector, represents Daddy Bear, and;
the next sector, smaller, is Mummy Bear, and;
the smallest sector is Baby Bear, then;

Daddy Bear goes straight in, Mummy Bear lies on her back, and Baby Bear is "under 30".

Works for me, and every other pilot who did their Link for an initial instrument rating with a remarkable instructor, no longer with us, Jock Roberts, ex-RAF and long time Qantas in the good old days.

Tootle pip!!

[Tee Emm]

Years ago when Ansett got their first glass cockpit 737-300's one of them was required to take up a holding pattern associated with Sydney 07 ILS. The FMC did a perfect pattern causing the ATC controller who was watching on his radar, to say to the crew, "Oh is that how a holding pattern is flown" - referring presumably to all the abortions of holding pattern tracks he had seen in the past.

[kellykelpie]

Thanks Jarse - would like a pictorial as still don't get - but glad you do:)

[newifr]

Jarse

Tried your method but still having to think about it. The point I tried to make was that if the sectors were drawn in like the OZ charts it would be simple. It becomes a problem when the sectors are not drawn and it is close to sector boundaries which means one has to do the calculation to the nearest degree. When the entry is in say the middle of a sector it is straight forward, it only becomes a bit more trying when it is close to the boundary of a sector and the instructor expects you you to get it right without you maneuvering to get it in to the sector of your choosing.

This is an exercise in a trainer which does not allow the use of an FMC.

If there are any mental short cuts to the caculations it would be appreciated.


Thanks

[Hugh Jarse]

Newifr,

message me your email, and I'll send you a handout that I wrote years ago :}

It'll all make sense then :ok:

[B747ERNG]

I use this method from Jeppesen IFR procedures training DVD.
Check the video 6:10 ~ 7:27

Holding Procedures Chapter 14 - YouTube

Hope this helps.
cheers

[aditya104]

I can suggest when you have a choice (and remember the 5deg of flex is heading dependant, which is why atc never give a particular sector - they don't work out your drift) the preference would be sector 2 is best, followed by a sector 1 and the sector 3 is last choice.


Thanks for those suggestions MakeItHappenCaptain. Makes sense.

NewIFR

AIP ENR 1.5 Para 3.3.1 tells us that the entry into the holding pattern must be according to the heading in relation to the three entry sectors recognizing a zone of flexibility of 5 deg.

I have experience of DAPs only and not Jeppessen. If you know the heading that is keeping you on track to the aid and if that heading is on the boundary of two sectors, then you can choose either of the two sectors provided the heading is +-5deg of sector boundary. Brief the instructor before doing this and explain why you are doing so.

As MakeItHappenCaptain said, Offset Entry>Parallel Entry>Direct Entry.
To understand why, look at which of the entries (when you have a choice) will have you conducting the entry closest to it's design.

Eg. If you have a 1/3 choice, the sec 3 entry will have your outbound leg a lot closer to the inbound leg. You will overshoot the turn and have to reintercept inbound. While the sec 1 will be further away on the reciprocal to the inbound, the intercept turning inbound will be easier.

[Grogmonster]

Geez guys does it really matter? Just track over the holding point outbound do whatever you want and track over the same point inbound. Job finished. Get on with the approach.

Groggy

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Yep, and try to remember, guys, the poster is after tips to help him pass his/her training and initial CIR, so let's not show just how good we all are (or think) by saying

"I'm Captain KissMyArse and I use the FMS" or

"just do whatever, it doesn't matter",

because
1) it's not helpful
And
2) odds are the ATO ain't gonna like it.:rolleyes:

[Hugh Jarse]

It's like doing a tacan point to point -

I wrote a handout on point-to-point nav way back when :8 I'll have to dig that out, too :}

[Howard Hughes]

I use the method in B747ERNG's video and have been for 20+ years, works everytime!:ok:

[ksa5223]

1. Set your inbound course of the holding pattern on your EFIS.

2. Look at where the head of the course you just set is.

3. For a left pattern go left 110 degrees, for a right go right 110.

4. draw a line through it with your melon from here. now you have your 3 sectors 110/70 & 180.

[Mr.Buzzy]

http://i512.photobucket.com/albums/t329/alfiephotobucket/IMG.jpg

I've found this very useful, hope you do as well.

bbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[kellykelpie]

Thanks Mr Buzzy!

[Capt Fathom]

Can't you just draw it on a piece of paper, and work it out from that. It's not that hard!

[Capt Casper]

Finally - To remember the sectors - Tiny 2 (70 degrees) & 1 + 2 = 3

[DeltaT]

Do you really think ATC are sitting there with a protractor on their radar screen complaining about which sector entry you did?

[Mr.Buzzy]

DeltaT Do you really think ATC are sitting there with a protractor on their radar screen complaining about which sector entry you did?


Nope, the Test Officer may see things differently though!

Bbbbzzzzxzzxx

[DeltaT]

Yeah exactly, the only time anyone in 'authority' worries if you are a few degrees out on the entry type...

[Oktas8]

I doubt you'd fail a test for being a few degrees out. Twenty or thirty degrees out might contribute to a fail with other things going wrong too. More likely, someone inexperienced might be so stressed worrying about the hold that he (she?) does something seriously wrong and fails for that.

I like the left hand / right hand rule. Never seen that one.

[Howard Hughes]

Do you really think ATC are sitting there with a protractor on their radar screen complaining about which sector entry you did?
I'm fairly sure I could hear them laughing at the entry/holding pattern I did the other day...:{