EFT and PanAm???

[Princess PP]

Hi everybody,

I was looking at European Flight Training's website at http://www.europeanflighttraining.com/ after a few people on PPRuNe had reccommended them, and it seems quite good.

I noticed that the two men who now run EFT happen to be PanAm's two "top guys".

Does anyone know what the situation is with PanAm now? I noticed on another thread someone was speculating that PanAm were about to lose their JAA approval.

I dismissed it as a rumour, but after noticing that Captain Trevor Brackston and Captain Ben Wood (both JAA Examiners for PanAm) had now started their own flying school, I began to wonder!

I would be grateful if anybody could shed some light on this matter. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

Many thanks,

PPP

[Princess PP]

Just refreshing the topic. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

[VFE]

To date PanAm has JAA approval. I have heard no rumour that they may lose it, has anyone else?

Where did you hear that then?

[Princess PP]

It was a comment "Jumbo Flaps" made at the top of this thread... http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/Forum2/HTML/008534.html

[gazelle507]

To answer your question re, Pan Am, they are not in fear of loosing thier JAA Approval, far from it they are now looking to expand and offer more courses.
On the subject of EFT, Trevor and Ben are two very experienced and dedicated guys and will make sure that any graduate from thier school will have the best possible training.
In deciding what training provider to go with is a long and arduous task, but one that is most important. You must look into all aspects of that training provider. If you do decide to go with EFT, you won't go far wrong.
Good luck with your aviation career.

[Gucci Cockpit]

Princess,

I think you are one of the few people who are going about getting their forzen ATPL in a modular path but at the least cost.
Could you please send me your email address? I would like to ask you for your advice, if you're not too busy. I know you're doing your exams at Bristol


------------------
"Mayday Mayday! The sim has lost one of it's legs!"

[Princess PP]

Thankyou Gazelle -

You speak as though you know Trevor and Ben quite well, have you had first-hand experience of EFT?

Will they still have a hand in PanAm? If not, I imagine they will leave quite a hole in PanAm's expertise?!

PPP

[kalik]

Er , Princess , I think you will find that the gentlemen in question were pushed from Pan Am some months ago . I'm sure this information was in a thread last year ?

I don't think they started a new school out of choice .

[herniair]

Sorry to spoil the selling by Gazelle & co. but any praise for this place is premature:
-EFT seems to have no approval and no track record.
-examiners are not allowed to instruct.
-there is a world of difference between being an employee and running your own business.
These guys may be truly wonderful but so are some of my friends, who couldn't run a sack race properly.

I wish EFT the best of luck - they'll need it with the flying school failure rate in Florida and, also, there are ever more competitors and nasty customers.

[inyoni]

What Herniair says is quite correct - there is a world of difference between being an employees and reuniting your own business.
People who are about to invest heavily in their flight training should look at the prospective provider of this training in the same way that a Bank Manager looks at giving a loan to a start up business.
If I were a local Financier in Florida these are some of the considerations I would be making in regard to investing in a new company.

1)Does the company offer a unique selling proposition? Unlikely it is pretty much the same as is on offer by next-door neighbor PAN AM and nearby Flight Safety (who no longer have a specialist divisionproviding this type of training - why?)
2)What is the track record of the owners of the new company - both of them were involved with the failed Air Safety International at Vero Beach, which left creditors and students in the lurch when they filed for bankruptcy. Whether or not they were directly to blame is not an issue for a banker it is just another low score on the credit rating, however unjust that may be.
3)What is the track record of similar ventures in Florida? The field is littered with the corpses of failed FTO's both FAA & CAA. The buildings that Pan Am now occupy were formerly used by another company offering the same services as now is on offer from EFT and again the directors did a disappearing act leaving both employees, creditors & students in the lurch. The fact that one of the directors is now set up again at an airfield in fairly close proximity in the state just shows one how easy it is escape the consequences of these actions.
4)What are the tangible assets of the company? I understand they are renting offices at the Aviator flight School at Fort Pierce and renting their airplanes. I would if I were a financier like to see real assets or financial backing that the company has before I would invest in it at least to a amount equal to 50% of the asset base.
5)Who are the competitors? Here it is customary to do a 'SWOT' analysis ie 'Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats. The threats and the associated weaknesses for any start up are apparent: FSI and Pan Am are unlikely to bide any competition in their local arena, both are cash rich by comparison and could easily undermine a small competitor in no time. Pan Am has already invested heavily in their own operation and I doubt if they are likely, or even expect, to realize a return on their investment for some time to come.
6)Gaining a CAA approval is no guarantee of the financial health of the company, unlike the protection offered by the CAA/ABTA arrangement that protects holidaymakers.

Whilst I have no doubt that the individuals involved in EFT are of the highest calibre in the instructional field, I would caution the potential client to be extremely wary of investing anything substantial up front until the company has proved to have a sound track record in providing the services on offer. I would suggest that anything more than a small deposit to secure training places that could be held as a buffer against daily transactions etc should considered with caution. Treat with extreme caution incentives and discounts in return for large sums in advance. Paying daily as one goes on a credit card would be another wise precaution. If the company would be happy with these arrangements then they will probably be genuine and able to provide a good service to their clients. Getting off to a good by providing good financial assurances will auger well for the success of this venture. If they have these principals in mind then I can only wish them all the success for the future.

[FAAJAA]

email [email protected] Princess. I'll give you the whole story.
P.S. "Captain" As far as i know neither of these guys have commanded much more than a Seneca...

[Princess PP]

Thankyou everybody for your replies!

Inyoni - you have raised many issues that I had not considered when vetting a prospective school, I have taken heed!

I had actually been looking favourably at using PanAm, but as a result of many recommendations of EFT, I was reassessing my options, now I will definately be doing more homework!

I was sent the PanAm glossies very recently, and if Kalik's info. is correct, I am quite miffed that they are still marketing the aforementioned Captains as their main guys.

Does anybody know who has replaced them at PanAm - if anyone? I am worried about what impact this could have on the JAA training / approval.

Many thanks again,

PPP

[Altimeter]

Hi there

Basically, Pan Am is still up and running and if anything just getting stronger and stronger.

The new head of training as arrived, Michael Gill - direct from BAe in Australia, and founder of Gill Airways UK- with more connections than you can possibly imagine.

All the approvals and ratings stand - fully approved for JAA CPL/IR licences and all the senior staff have remained even after Wood and Brackston leaving.

Of the students who Ben and trevor tried to get to go with them - how many went - ZERO, none, all stayed at Pan Am.

All the facilities at Pan Am will be on-line and fully up and running by the end of March, there are brand new seminoles about to arrive to join the new arrow this month and the 6 or 7 2001 Archer IIIs. There are some older Warriors, which JAA standardly use (but you can pay more) but these are all fully equipped and perfectly adequate.

PS. The last time I saw Ben and trevor was when they were being removed from Pan Am's property after some extremely "dodgy" goings on got the better of them one afternoon!

['I' in the sky]

FAA JAA

This is a long shot, but did you once work at one of the Ft Pierce schools ?

[Altimeter]

Nope - just telling it how it is. There are of course problems with Pan Am - not great ones and probably not ones you don't get elsewhere, but on the whole there is no problem with them and any major problems they once had seem to be getting sorted - the arrival of Mike Gill, for example, can be nothing but good news, can it?

[FAAJAA]

Draw your own conclusion about where I work. Sorry, for my own protection.

[EFT.CFI]

From: Ben Wood, CFI European Flight Training

I would like to reply to the questions and comments raised.

Both myself and Trevor brackston (Head of training) resigned from Pan-am at the end of Dec 00 by choice.

Both Trevor and myself have taught between us many hundreds of PPL, BCPL, Mult, IR and FI students. We would be more than happy to give out referrals upon request.

Both Trevor and Myself hold examiner approvals for PPL,IMC,MEP, F170 CPL(A)/IR(A),FRTOL and Ground Examinations.
This does not prevent us from instructing our own students.

Trevor brackston ran a very successful business in the U.K before his aviation carrer and I have Managed and ran flight schools for the past 7 years.

Due to the fact of EFT being a new start-up business, we only require a small deposit from a student before their arrival for the CPL(A)and IR(A) courses, due to the booking of Examiners in advance.

EFT will be offering a service with very different training philosophies compared to some of the larger schools. Positive Customer service and satisfaction, value for money, kept promises, uncompromising standards and safety to name but a few.
What is often forgotten at larger schools is that the student is also the customer

Both Trevor an myself have worked for a number of schools, setting up and gaining CAA and JAA approval.

FAA regulations state that no school is allowed to push out a new school or conduct unfair business practices to interfere with said school.

Competition is good for everyone, it keeps the training providers on their toes, the student normally benifits from price reductions and better sevice.

Lastly if anyone requires further information about EFT they can go online at WWW.EuropeanFlightTraining.com (http://WWW.EuropeanFlightTraining.com) or email me direct at [email protected]

[gazelle507]

Hear, Hear. Excellent Ben.

[TooHotToFly]

Can all flying schools post an advert now?

[herniair]

Promises, promises........
are cheap.

[PPRuNe Towers]

TooHotToFly,

They're allowed a one off. Trevor was brave enough to send Mrs Towers solo at Brooksville long ago.

Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd
[email protected]

[Linda Mollison]

Inyoni

Your response above is one of the best bits of advice I have read on this forum for some time.

If everyone researched schools properly before spending their money, there would be fewer disapponted (and poorer) people around.

Are you who I think you are? (the non-English 'spokesman'?)

If so e-mail me on [email protected].

I am in touch with one of your countrymen who wants some advice on schools.

[N30PF]

In response to Mr Wood'S comments, here is a summary from the other side of the airport...
Rumers started circling around PAFPR (Pan Am Fort Pierce) about early Novembner time that Ben & Trevor were planning to start their own school up.

In December, including Ben & Trevor, we had 4 instructors on the JAA side and it was known that there would be the largest intake of JAA students so far (about 15ish I believe, taking our total JAA to just below 20) to arrive in the first week of January. This was leading to some concerns as to wether there would be enough instructors.

Just before new years day (when there is nobody around, Ben and Trevor resign by email. (The CAA approvals go with them in their name)

Pan Am finds itself screwed. No approvals to train, only 2 instructors and 15-20 students in a weeks time.
Could they do anything but beg Ben & Trevor to come back and pay them anything they asked for? (It's just my opinion but anyone else think this might have been planned?)

Ben & Trevor return at the end of the first week of Jan working under a contract from Pan Am with the newley formed EFT (which of course they own).

January continues with the two instructors and Ben & Trevor (who take on about 2 students between them - they obviously had a lot of sorting out to do with EFT to make sure that their pay checks never dropped below six figures, so couldn't strain themselves)

This left about 7/8 students each for the two instructors. So we all got to fly about once, sometimes twice a week if we were really good boys and girls. Ben & Trevor said that they were actively recruiting more instructors.

The situation becomes crazy with instructors working flat out to deliver that magic second lesson a week to some students.
The only people Ben and Trevor try to recruit are current students from Pan Am to their own school.
Eventually very public arguments become commonplace between them and the intructors.
Pan Am eject Ben & Trevor from the premises.

Trevor tries to prosecute on of the instructors for assualt, claiming that he "feared for his life" - Trevor is a black belt - the instructor probably would have problems wrestling a catepiller.
They also try to sue Pan Am for deformation of charactor.
As far as I know the both cases were dismissed.


Here's a few expansions on Mr Wood's comments:
>EFT will be offering a service with very >different training philosophies compared to >some of the larger schools.
Since we don't have any real backing we are likely to fold soon and take your money with with us.

>Positive Customer service and satisfaction, >value for money, kept promises, >uncompromising standards and safety to name >but a few.
We'll keep you here until you've funded our new school's setup, then we may pass you, since we are the examiners.

>What is often forgotten at larger schools >is that the student is also the customer
They have money we can take

>Both Trevor and myself have worked for a >number of schools, setting up and gaining >CAA and JAA approval.
And then attempting to destroying them - Air Safety, Flight Safety (anyone wondering why FS don't do CAA anymore?) and Pan Am.

>FAA regulations state that no school is >allowed to push out a new school or conduct >unfair business practices to interfere with >said school.
Perhaps you guys should have read that chapter before trying to steal the stduents from here. And if we needed any evidence YOU'VE GOT ONE OF OUR EX-STUDENTS AT THE MOMENT!

Life after Ben & Trevor
Magicaly we found some more instructors (strange that those two couldn't bring any along - must have been a shortage of unemployed pilots i guess!)
And now 3 flights a day, although tiring, is not unheard of. In summary their departure was the best thing that could have happened to Pan Am.