A question for Instructors and experienced PPL's

[AOB9]

I'm 17hrs into my PPL training and my financial situation has taken a "dip". So much so that there is now a growing gap between each lesson which is leading to a lack of continuity. The Irish weather has often delayed my ambition but financial reasons are now my biggest stumbling block. My instructor blames (and I agree) the long gaps between my recent lessons as a barrier to going solo. These are now stretching to 4 weeks. My question is simple...should I stop and wait until my financial situation improves or should I continue and fly the occasional lesson for the fun of it? Personally, I would opt for the latter as I love every minute of it and I'm under no pressure to gain my license. However I'm a bit concerned that my training school would consider me a "second class" student due to my lack of progress. It's all a bit depressing as I hadn't envisaged this situation when I set out on my training last year.

Any tips from "the wise" would be greatly appreciated. PC based Flight Simulator is no replacement for the real thing no matter how good the recent add-ons are (and some are really good)

[Mark 1]

It sounds like you've answered your own question. If you enjoy it, keep going. It will be slow, but you will progress.

As an alternative, if you have more time than cash, then try a gliding club, especially if there's a cheap winch launch for the early stages. The skills you gain will pay you back when you return to powered flying.
Motorglider training is often cheaper than regular powered and just as good for learning the skills (some would say more so).

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that you need to look to the long term. Assuming that you are able to pass your PPL eventually - what sort of real fun are you going to get out of your flying post qualification?

It sounds to me that you really want to look for cheaper ways to learn, and then to fly. Have a look at the costs and possibilities at your local gliding and microlight clubs, for example.

G

[goldeneaglepilot]

Good advice about the SLMG or microlight route. Another alternative is to look at saving up and doing a block of hours to get over the solo hurdle.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi AOB9,

I think you should also consider changing to three-axis microlighting. These aircraft are often much better than the Group A variety, that I assume you are flying now, and are significantly cheaper to fly.

Another alternative is to stop flying for the time being but set up a 'flying fund' to save money over a period and then go to the States for a concentrated course in a couple of years time.

BroomstickPilot

[thing]

I would recommend the saving up and battering it to death approach as well. There are guys at my club who started well before me who still haven't got their PPL. No reflection on them, they are perfectly capable, they just don't fly frequently.

Conversely it took me about 9 months without really straining to do my PPL, Night and IMC. I must stress I'm no superman when it comes to flying, I just had the money saved up and also could fly more or less anytime, plus I didn't have to think about money if the weather was going to be CAVOK for a week and you have chance to put ten or so hours in.

The more often you do something the quicker you learn it. You need to think about flying afterwards as well, the money pit doesn't stop when you have your license...:)

I came to powered after 20 odd years of gliding, purely because I could only afford to glide and I didn't want to do the 'dribs and drabs' approach to getting a PPL. That doesn't mean that gliding is second best, far from it, most glider pilots would say it requires far superior piloting skills. It's a superb sport that has without any doubt at all made me a better powered pilot.

Good luck anyway and above all be it microlighting, gliding or Class A, enjoy it!

Edit: Just realised your post was aimed at instructors and experienced pilots, apologies for butting in!

[Dan the weegie]

It sounds to me that you really want to look for cheaper ways to learn, and then to fly. Have a look at the costs and possibilities at your local gliding and microlight clubs, for example.

More sound advice you could not receive. Too many people sit their PPL and don't know what to do with it after, Microlights get you flying and keep you there for a lot less money.

[BackPacker]

Agree. Go back and ask yourself what your motivation really is.

There are far cheaper ways to fly than a PPL on your average spamcan. They can be just as much fun, but equally there are some limits (long-distance touring is generally a bit harder to do, for instance).

On the other hand, there is absolutely nothing wrong with continuing what you're doing now. As long as you are open and upfront with your instructor about your situation (not enough money to continue at a reasonable pace, not necessarily interested in going solo quickly, but just wanting to have fun).

[Heston]

I'd definitely look at the microlight route.

Whether or not you stop for a while to build up funds or keep going in dribs and drabs is likely to be a choice only you can make - depends on how you feel about flying, what your motivation is and so on. For what its worth, no decent school or instructor will treat you as a "second class" citizen just because you fly infrequently. Sure it will take more hours to get your PPL, but if you're enjoying the flying and the learning, that may not matter to you. I have students in just your position - and over time they make very good and safe pilots.

G is right though - if finances are a challenge at the moment, you need to think about what your goals are going to be after you gain your licence and make sure you can continue to fly.

H

[Big_Buddha36]

Harsh as this will sound, whilst you feel you are at best, treading water, what you're actually doing is going backwards and if you're in the circuit, you're becoming institutionalised to the circuit which will cause problems when you leave.

As an instructor for over 4yrs, my advice (as I've seen this again & again) is to break-off until the funds are there.

What you're doing is really just a series of trial lessons for someone who can just about circuit the aircraft.

Its one of the worst places to stall in your progress ( only nav is more expensive).

It doesn't take much, if you're in the circuit, I'd budget getting yourself solo again in around 5-10hrs. Sounds a lot, but since you've stopped your regular flying, how many have you already knocked up without progress? Going solo is about reaching a peak, getting pushed of the edge (the instructor saying " ok, make this one a land, I'm getting out!!) and then consolidation afterwards.
As such, your flying needs to ramp UP, not just bounce along

Bb

[mad_jock]

I agree with budda

and also have a good think about whats going wrong in the circuit. Is it just the flare your making a pigs ear of or are you maxed out the whole way around.

If its just the flare continue just doing circuits.

If its the whole thing go and practise the previous exercises until your good at doing everything in the circuit apart from the landing.

[maxred]

AOB9 - in 1995, I was exactly like you. Stuck in the circuit, infrequent flying, 16 hours and going nowhere. A problem.

All of the above is good and wise words. I always reckoned that there are four things that prevent anyone from progress in flying

1.Weather
2. Availability of instructor/aeroplane at a time that suits your schedule.
3.Finance
4.Will

As stated above there is always an answer, you have just got to find it. My view is you will go nowhere if you continue ad hoc, so, if budget is the main concern, look at Micro/Ultra/Gliding. If budget can be overcome, save up for a block, to get over the stages. Hang around the flying club, get to know people, and go flying with them. Befriend a lonely pilot!!!

You can do nothing about weather at this stage. The other three are do-able.

[rusty sparrow]

I gave up flying when I could no longer fly enough to consider myself safe. Managing to make the minimum hours with insufficient funds was stressful and removed the fun.

When Northern Rock crashed, I decided to take out my money and get my licence back. That took a few hours refresher and then a skills test - all done in a week between contracts. I then got a share in an LAA aircraft and fly at an affordable cost.

I'd put training on hold until you have the funds - in the meantime, keep your hand in by taking up the offers of spare seats on the top of this forum.

[mad_jock]

To be honest if I didn't fly for a living....

I wouldn't bother with the club GA scene.

I would be microlights if I could find one that I could fit my arse into or gliders.

[InfraBoy]

I second all of the comments above regarding gliding and 3-axis micro-lighting. I fly many different GA types and am studying my ATPL Groundschool while working full time but I still fly Eurostars when able even though the hours count for nothing on my licence - they're just so much fun and so more capable VFR than a Cessna or whatever most people learn on these days.except perhaps the new Tecnam my club has just taken delivery of!

Also, ask you instructor to introduce you to people he thinks you wouldn't learn bad habits from if you went flying with. Maybe they'll let you do the RT and nav as well as being good for the to talk you through what they're doing.

[piperboy84]

Can't really give you advice on whether you should pause till funds allow or continue a limited training schedule, however when i was getting my private back in the early 90's in the US I had the same problem with funds. One of the things i did was to become what they called a "hanger rat" which basically involved hanging round the airfield every weekend and getting to know the aircraft owners and licensed pilots who rented and making them aware that i was available to go right seat for flights and to act as a second pair of eyes. I also asked the aircraft owners and the flight school to let me know if there was any "maintenance flights" where aircraft were being re-positioned to other fields for repairs and I would end up splitting the cab fare back with the pilot/CFI. Browsing through my logbook these flights accounted for some of the best flying experiences I've had. They included going both right and left seat with a CFI delivering a Warrior to a new owner from Los Angeles to New York over 3 days, taking a C210 from San Diego to Oklahoma for a new paint job, and an Beach Barron (left seat!!) to Arizona for a avionics upgrade. In addition to these flights I probably got about 80 hours of local re-positioning flights. A lot of the aircraft brokers would hire CFI's from flight schools to do the deliveries and the CFI's were only to happy to have someone else there for company, share a lunch stop, or a beer on a delivery that required an overnight in some god forsaken place. Obviously some of it could not be logged, but a lot of it could and it was a very educational experience. I was always amazed at how many, dare i say, mature and perhaps rusty pilots/owners wanted to take their aircraft (that were not your usual flight school types, but 182, Cherokee 6 complex types etc) for a flight but felt more comfortable with another "aviator" (and not there wife) in the right seat. Off course this is in no way a substitute for a proper PPL training program but it keeps your hand in the game when paying full freight for rental + lessons is not an option.

Oh and i would add one more thing. Another benefit of this was you really got to know about different aircraft makes,model and equipment etc, as a large percentage of CFI's are right lazy bastards and on those cold morning starts they would stay in the pilot lounge "checking the weather" while I was sent to do the preflight etc.

[AOB9]

Thank you all for your replies, I didn't expect this much feedback. A curious thing happened today. A guy at the flight club (PPL) rang me to discuss a work issue ( we're both self employed). During the conversation he asked how my lessons were going and I told him exactly what I told you here. His reply was sympathetic as he has just sold his PA-28 as he can no longer afford the annual costs associated with it. BUT, he also owns a microlight. Having heard of some of the feedback received here he went on to offer me a flight to give me a taste of "true stick and rudder", his words. This is going to be an interesting and unexpected diversion and I would have been reluctant to try it out if it hadn't been for the advice received here, so thank you.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Thank you all for your replies, I didn't expect this much feedback. A curious thing happened today. A guy at the flight club (PPL) rang me to discuss a work issue ( we're both self employed). During the conversation he asked how my lessons were going and I told him exactly what I told you here. His reply was sympathetic as he has just sold his PA-28 as he can no longer afford the annual costs associated with it. BUT, he also owns a microlight. Having heard of some of the feedback received here he went on to offer me a flight to give me a taste of "true stick and rudder", his words. This is going to be an interesting and unexpected diversion and I would have been reluctant to try it out if it hadn't been for the advice received here, so thank you.

I have roughly equal hours on microlights and SEP, and am qualified to do a certain amount of instruction and test flying on both.

I think that in many ways your friend is correct - to my mind I fly a microlight, whilst I would operate a PA28. For the fun of flying on a nice day, I'll take the microlight any day.

Why do I choose to fly SEP then? Because I can go further, with more payload, and in cloud and at night. But if I want to fly for fun, I'll take a microlight pretty much every time.

G

[fwjc]

I was advised to save up and do a big chunk together, and I did that inadvertently. I've posted in another thread the reason why I took a year off lessons while I was pre-solo. In that year's break I saved some money up.

Ultimately it took me just over two years and around 12 1/2 hours to go solo, and the full PPL took 4 years and 46 hours, but I wouldn't recommend it as the way to do things. Save up some money, do it with as much continuity as you can manage. But don't worry if if takes you longer than you wanted to.

Don't fret about how many hours it takes, within reason. A ticket is a ticket. The only time to worry is if you're spending money unnecessarily. In which case make sure that you get the most from every minute you spend in the aeroplane.

The glider / microlight suggestion is well worth investigating, as are "stickandrudder" skills. These can open the way to flying that costs considerably less, and are even more fun.

[rusty sparrow]

Personally, I wouldn't recommend gliding. It's very expensive and you can spend a whole day at an airfield for ten minutes flying. As an example of cost, the London Gliding Club charges £640 for annual membership and an aero tow to 2000' plus an hours flying cost around £65. Gliding's great and I used to spend my weekends doing it in the 70s - but prices have gone up a lot since then.

Microlighting yes - I've had a couple of flights in flexiwings and looked over a couple of the three axis acft. Both types are fun to fly and I like the grass roots feel of the sport. In contrast gliding these days seems a bit snobby to me.

[thing]

I can't believe the prices you have just quoted. It's £200 a year and £6.50 for a launch at our gliding club. Even if you don't own or have a share in a glider it's only £24 an hour to fly a club glider. As for snobby, try getting out of the home counties sometime. Real gliding clubs are completely different.

[rusty sparrow]

REAL gliding clubs. I'd love to find one within reasonable distance from home - where's your's based thing? I'd love to complete my Silver C.

[thing]

Unfortunately quite a way, Darlton just by the side of Gamston's ATZ.

[peterh337]

it's only £24 an hour to fly a club glider

But... I think you will find that gliding is not a "drop-in" activity, where you turn up, fly, and sod off home. You are normally expected to spend the day, and probably the weekend, there, helping out, etc.

Gliding is a different community.

[Dan the weegie]

Absolutely it's definitely a patience game with gliding, I like the flying bit but not the waiting bit. There's only so much :mad: someone can talk before it becomes dull :D

[thing]

It is a different community, I don't find it dull because there's plenty to do. If you're not flying you can be on the winch or duty pilot, that sort of thing. If you view it as a day out with a bunch of like minded blokes who enjoy a laugh and there's some flying thrown in as well you won't be far short of the mark. Totally different mind set to the turn up, fly, go home mentality of the powered pilot.

I suppose gliding is more of a communal pastime. If you enjoy talking crap all day (in the nicest way), trying to out tall story the next guy then gliding is for you. Much like here really.

[peterh337]

It's often said that you divorce at the gliding club, marry at the gliding club, etc :)

[maxred]

Horses for courses. It would be great to hang out all day, shooting the breeze, the problem is that most time, with certainly my time at a premium, days spent 'flying', have to do precisely that - fly.

I think gliding is very worthwhile, teaches you great volumes regarding 'aerdynamics and stick and rudder', however, unless you are based at a gliding location that can give decent access to mountain wave, thermal activity, then, sporadic flights can be very short.:uhoh:

That said, nothing better than to while away the hours, sniffing the newly cut grass, just landed, and a beer in hand. When the sun shines obviously;)

[thing]

The only advantage of course of class A over microlighting is the ability to IFR. Which is one of the main reasons I did it, in this country IMO IFR is almost a necessity unless you are happy to pick the nice days, in which case I would have stuck with gliding. I wanted to open up the possibilities of travel with a powered license.

[thing]

The aircraft can be surprisingly affordableI would beg to differ, they may be cheap to run but a good 3 axis, in other words one that will take yourself and a passenger some distance is a damn sight dearer than your average 30-40 year old spammie.

I looked into microlighting and the LAA scene and was amazed at the prices that some of the better ones go for.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Depends what you want out of your flying.

An X'Air 582 would cost you around £7k, and a Jabiru around £18k, either will be around 10 years old and carry you and a pax for probably 3 hours, the first at about 60 knots, the second nearer 90, both costing around £40/hr all-in to run.

Yes, you can spend a great deal more - but then what are you comparing? A new CT or Dynamic at about £60k and costing about £50/hr to fly versus a new C162 at about £200k and costing about £75/yr to fly.

Microlighting, unless you judge it badly wrong, is a lot cheaper.

G

[thing]

I'm not going to argue with the man in the know, perhaps I should have another look at it.

[RyanRs]

I have not read the entire thread and therefore i apologise if what i am about to say has little or no relevance, but perhaps just for a bit of inspiration, there was a guy who trained at my local school who took 4 years to complete his PPL! But what was amazing was the fact he did it in 45 hours! Im guessing some of his exams must have expired so he would have had to do some twice but in all i think to do an average of 1 lesson per month and still pass within the minima is pretty amazing! I guess it shows that once you learn the basics, the handling and finally get past your solo, then it starts to become like riding a bike!

I think that because you are so close to going solo, you are quite possibly capable of doing the solo right now! however you are hanging on to the comfort of having your instructor with you using the excuse of 'being rusty from training gaps'. I think you should save up a couple of hours worth of cash, get a solid set of dual circuits done, on a day with goood weather,then just do that solo! after that, the 'like riding a bike' sets in and you 'technically' never forget! My instructor has a funny way of sending people solo, he tells them literally just before he steps out of the airplane, then absolutely refuses to take 'No i dont want to' as an answer! when he sent me solo, i hadn't had a lesson in two weeks, we went up, did one ok'ish touch and go, landed on the second, then he got out gave me some last sec advice (like 'if im going to crash make sure i throw his watch out of the window first' as i had to borrow it) then he walked off and left me too it! I absolutely crapped myself! but i did it! and it was easier than i could ever have imagined!

After that i come back a few days later and got 4 hours of solo circuits out of the way within 4 days, the landings did get a bit sketchy as i got more a little over confident, but by the time i was done i really did look at flying differently, I knew i had become a pilot!

Now, i did have a month gap a few lessons after doing solo circuits and i was scared that i would forget enough to end up killing myself, I did a dual nav exercise then my instructor got out and sent me back out to do it solo ...in reverse! Once again i had to overcome the fear of going 'solo' knowing i had not been in a plane in 4 weeks, however i got airbourne, everything came back to me, did the nav without issue and i returned to the aerodrome and performed the best & smoothest landing to date! i was so happy with myself!

[AOB9]

@RyanRs, thank you for the contribution and what you say is indeed very relevant. Of course there is a certain reluctance to go solo but not a "fear" of going solo as such. You are also correct when you suggest I am "using" the gaps as an reason for not going solo but I stop you at the point of using them as an avoidance excuse. When cash is tight I would be very mindful of wasting it on pointless lessons that do nothing but add lines on my logbook. My comments about flying for fun are equally relevant but I would definitely get more excitement and fun if I spend my €200 on flying solo at this point. So, solo is the ultimate goal for now and I have two options both of which have been suggested by your good selves.

1.........transfer to microlight......better value and more affordable in the longterm

2.....save up for a block of lessons and get that solo done + a few hours solo circuit hrs in quick succession.

I will also add (in response to an earlier post) that I am not "maxed out " in the circuit at this point, everything is nice and fluid including very busy ATC comms as I train at a commercial airport. It's the elusive timing in my flare that I need to nail down. I'm confident that once I get that "picture" right in my mind it will stick like glue and my first major hurdle will be overcome.

BTW , knowing that somebody took four years and only 45 hours to get licensed is a huge comfort.

[mad_jock]

I know it sounds daft but try not to land.

Skim her a foot off the deck then take the power to idle and try not to land, while looking at the far end waggling the rudder so the instructor thinks you know what your doing with it.

[AOB9]

@mad_jock Coming from somebody with almost 6,000 posts I will take that as very sound advice and will certainly give it a go next time out. I understand your what you are saying, there is an urgency about sticking the plane to the ground when I get to a certain point.

[mad_jock]

Its not the post count that should count.

I have done a reasonable amount of ppl instructing, not as much as some here but enough.

The whole thing about short strips is to be at the right place at the right speed. To fast and you are stuffed. Alwasy make sure you are trimmed as well.

And if your not down by the certain point don't force her down when she still wants to fly , all that will happen is that you will balloon or the ground will reject you and she will bounce.

And instructors love it when students make the go-around call and just do it.
So you make the call and fly it.

What aircraft type and what approach speed are you using?

[Big_Buddha36]

Mad has sound advice there.

When landing, I tend to describe it as trying as hard as possible not to let the wheels touch, but getting lower and lower whilst you play that game. You'll usually lose (aka:land)

Try imagining where the wheels are and try to have the controls in motion, coming back as the wheels touch. Don't stop flaring

Bb

[AOB9]

Cessna 172 , Flaps stage 2; 70 knots............ normally . Also Flaps stage 3 @ 60-65 knots but this is purely for "variation" and is not standard. Runaway is "huge", over 2,000 m, Asphalt.

In many ways the runway makes training easier, whereas being a commercial airport there is great exposure to ATC comms and compliance.

@Big_Buddha36 "Don't stop Flaring". That's exactly what my instructor keeps saying "Keep the back pressure on the column"

I'll get there, I know I will.

[mad_jock]

C172 sometimes can be a sod because they just don't want to stop flying.

The one I used to instruct on it took me 150 hours to realise I had to hold it in the flare until you needed a marked increase in back pressure in the flare and the back end seemed to drop and it made a noise like airwolf.

Seen some quite spectacular bounces in them when folk try and put them on the ground before they are ready to stop flying.

[Big_Buddha36]

AOB:

heres an idea - I've had a few students that struggle at the flare. BUT... IF i simply keep saying "keep flaring,keep flaring, keep flaring" when they are actually doing it, they can produce some VERY nice landings - my point of talking when perhaps you shouldn't is 2-fold: 1) to show them that they DO have it within them & 2) Thats' the "voice" they should hear in their head as they are doing it with me being perfectly quiet, hands in lap

what most tend to do, is flare a bit, control a balloon, but then BRACE FOR IMPACT - i.e. they just fix the control column for fear that any further back pressure will restart the balloon. Don't think like that. "CHECK" any balloon, and just as you sense its about to go back down, just think, right, time to start flaring

you MUST try to have that CC in motion towards you as they touch. Another trick is to try as reduce the throttle at such a pace, so that it is fully idle, JUST before the wheels touch - remember, throttle controls UP&Down, so the pace at which you reduce throttle will also control the flare rate. move that slowly back and the pace will remain manageable - just cut it, & you're at the mercy of gravity.

****, going through all that, makes me want to get in a plane with you and just show you :O

but i still stand by my original post - save the cash THEN blast at it. All the other talk of TMG's etc are all good and interesting, but think about what you want out of flying - where do you want your ratings to go, what do you want to do when you fly. Ultimately, I think that Group-A gives you more flexibility to go to others, than the other way round - but thats just gut feel, not an informed statement.

BB

[AOB9]

Seen some quite spectacular bounces in them when folk try and put them on the ground before they are ready to stop flying

I've done one of those earlier on that required some real quick intervention by the instructor. Never did it again though.

****, going through all that, makes me want to get in a plane with you and just show you

I've got it, I completely understand what you are saying.

Thanks for the tips, really much appreciated.............and for free.