plans vs sat nav

[Pilot.Lyons]

Hey,

Just a question.

I just bought air nav pro and flew to wellesbourne yesterday

I planned flight as normal paper and maps etc and had sat nav running next to me.

My friend came up from another field and im sure he only used sat nav so heres the question... Who uses the traditional method? Is it just me?
Or do people use sat nav and just keep a map and cross reference although using gps as a main source?

[fwjc]

Chart first, gps as backup. There's a requirement to carry an up to date chart, it's there anyway so I'd use it. Gps is nice to have, but having a background in space physics I have a tiny niggle of mistrust in them.

[stuartforrest]

Oh my goodness that will stir up the juices!

In my opinion technology is great. My plane has 2 garmin GNS430, 1 Garmin 296, and an Ipad with skydemon on it. If I get lost I am pretty poor.

In addition I know how to work the adf and I know how to track vor's.

I also carry a map and I find it quite interesting to look out of the window and look at ground features.

I think it is great to use all navigation features. If you can do them all and practice regularly you will be fine. I wouldnt pick one over the other.

For me its technology all the way as my primary choice. I would love to have synthetic vision. I imagine it is a great safety feature but it is currently too expensive but I am sure it will save lives over the traditional methods of nav which quite clearly dont give you the same situational awareness.

[Pilot.Lyons]

True im the same, i would feel, almost like being out without my iphone... Somewhat uneasy!

Do you plan in the way you were taught? Or do you get in, programme sat nav an have a chart double check your sat nav isnt broke :confused:

[achimha]

There are people with car navigation that refuse to make use of it and rely on paper street maps.

There are people that enjoy car navigation but have street maps in their glove box in case they might need them.

The average age of group #1 is probably higher than that of group #2.

Indeed, you are legally obliged to carry up to date maps, however that doesn't have to be on paper. Still, paper remains the most reliable way of compliance. I rarely use paper maps enroute but I still carry them.

What I would NEVER do is rely on an iPad as my sole source of map data. I've had the damn thing fail too often enroute, more the fault of buggy apps than the hardware. I've had the expensive certified Garmin GNS430W fail on me as well.

[Pilot.Lyons]

Well me trip to welles purne was spot on and i did plan it the way i was taught... Waypoints and resetting timer etc... On the way back i used the gps more so than my plan but i was checking that i was in the same place that my gps told me i was.... And it was spot on all the way.

If it failed i had my paper planned route but boy was it a long winded pain in the a*s way round it ( he says now he sees how easy sat nav is) :)

With the instruments we have and detailed maps and the odd "practice pan" im sure we could find our way out of trouble :p if i missed out the long winded paper planning

I just feel like im cheating on the way i was taught

[Stephen Furner]

It's not either/or you need both; sometimes "The Machine Stops".


REF: H0524/12 From: 2012-Mar-26 Mon 07:00 To: 2012-Mar-30 Fri 16:00
Schedule: 0700-1600
ICAO: EGTT SFC to 40000FT AMSL
GROUND AND GPS JAMMING WI 54NM RADIUS OF 5229N 00045E (STANFORD
TRAINING AREA, CAMBRIDGESHIRE). AIC P 009/2012 REFERS. CTC 0207453
6530/6535 OR STANTA RANGE CONTROL 01842 855235. 12-03-0017/AS 4

[Pilot.Lyons]

Wow good point...

[dublinpilot]

I would love to have synthetic vision. I imagine it is a great safety feature but it is currently too expensive

3D synthetic vision (uncertified) is available as part of the PocketFMS app currently in the Android Market (erm..Google Play! now!) and shortly the Apple app store.

I gave up drawing lines on maps years ago for flying in Ireland. If I go further afield, I will draw a line on the chart.

In all cases I will have a plog, even the most simple of flights, because my GPS software (PocketFMS) will produce that plog for me with no effort, along with a list of all the freqnecies that I need.

I always carry a paper chart though (though giving consideration to only carrying a digital chart in the future, with a second digital backup). So if for some reason GPS is unavailable, I still have my plog, and paper chart.

If you choose the right GPS/flight planning system combination, then producing your plog and 'programming' the GPS are just one task one two. So having your plog is no more effort than just using GPS.

As for which one is primary, and which is secondary is a mute point. Know where you are according to both. If one is suggesting that you are somewhere different than the other is suggesting, then figure out which is right and which is wrong!

Most likely the GPS is right, but they can lose signal, freeze up or have the incorrect route put in! However your GPS is unlikely to continue functioning, updating your position, heading and speed, and show you in the wrong position! Most unlikely indeed!

Most errors when using GPS seem to be in vertical navigation.

[Pilot.Lyons]

Thanks dublin makes complete sense as do all the comments

I guess im just trying to get out of doing my vfr planning sheets!

[thing]

I use the whole shooting match. I have the map marked up, the stopwatch hanging off the yoke, the ADF and VOR's tuned in, a SkyDemon plog and the GPS on. The stuff is there to use so use it, the most you have to do is reach over and tune in and get an ident, it's not rocket science. Having said that I can get back home purely visually now up to about a 50 mile radius from the airfield, which is handy if all of my electrics go pop, the GPS gets jammed, the E2 explodes and the map blows out of the window.

I had my first flight exactly a year ago and I remember getting lost in the circuit once....totally lost the runway. I'm off to Breighton on Saturday and could probably get there blindfolded now. Amazing what a year does.

[RookieCaptain]

If the technology is there then use it. I fly conventional cockpit as well as glass cockpit And the planning always start with the chart. I wouldn't want to find myself in a situation where solely trust GPS. Have a back up plan like using VoR or ADF. Get the freq down for all nav aids just in case.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

However your GPS is unlikely to continue functioning, updating your position, heading and speed, and show you in the wrong position! Most unlikely indeed!
I've had one update the position but lose the direction, showing me pointing north whatever the real heading was. I didn't bother to look at what groundspeed it was telling me whilst it was in this mood!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

The stuff is there to use so use it
Yes indeed, you're paying money to haul all this kit around, you might as well switch it on and tune it. (Though I have to admit I don't always bother to turn on the GPS.)

[peterh337]

Most likely the GPS is right, but they can lose signal, freeze up or have the incorrect route put in! However your GPS is unlikely to continue functioning, updating your position, heading and speed, and show you in the wrong position! Most unlikely indeed!Unless it is the one in the Ipad2 :)

Somehow that manages to do stuff I have never seen on a GPS before. Or maybe that is just the app (Memory Map).

I just feel like im cheating on the way i was taught If you really feel that way, I suggest a cure would be to attend one of the utterly gripping lectures put up by the Royal Institute of Navigation :E However to get in you will need to dress up like this

http://www.costumes.org/history/quicherat/HenriIV.JPG

(I could not find a pic properly showing the obligatory sock full of sand which you stuff down the front of your trousers)

[Pilot.Lyons]

Haha ;) :D

[Pilot.Lyons]

The gps i intend to use more often would be air nav pro on an ipad 2 with the gns 5870 (i think if i remember correctly)
With an ipad 2 kneeboard

I would also have the same software on my iphone 4 stuck on side window

And of course my chart

Im feeling from responses that i should just use sat nav a primary and have a chart with my line and go with the flow... Im never too far away from a vor adf any way

[dublinpilot]

I don't know if AirNavPro can produce plogs of you or not. If it can, then print it off and bring it with you.

Not rely on ANP to show the correct airspace boundaries...double check with your chart.

Always know where you are on the chart, so that if you need to you can quickly swap over to using the chart.

Apart from that, your approach seems sensible to me.

[peterh337]

I think most people who use a GPS use it to establish their position on the printed chart.

That is the most sensible simple way to go about it.

The next best thing is to have the "printed" chart running as a GPS moving map. This capability has been about only recently (mostly due to map copyright issues, etc) but now there are numerous products which will give you that. Then you never need to actually look at the paper chart (I have that "system" for the whole of Europe, and the printed charts stay on the back seat, and in some cases I will carry only small sections of them, printed off as required).

The next stage is to run a GPS moving map which shows the ground and the airspace as dynamically generated shapes. This is what the old "aviation" GPSs do (again for historical reasons to do with Jeppesen effectively owning the databases) but IMHO most of the traditional ones (e.g. Garmin 496) are rubbish at it, with loads of clutter and no easy way to see the vertical airspace extents, especially on a small screen. The newer programs (PocketFMS, Skydemon) do this a lot better, but it works well only with a reasonable size screen, say 8" diagonal.

But regardless of how you actually navigate enroute, there really is no reason not to use a computer to knock up the plog, pre-flight. I have been using goode olde Navbox Pro for that, ever since the day I got my PPL in 2001. It is simple, has near-useless map representations (no good as a GPS moving map, although it will do that too) but does the job fine, and has a very good European coverage, with good airport info obtainable by clicking on the airport (phone numbers, etc).

[Pilot.Lyons]

Thanks guys, thats what i will do from now.

Appreciate all the advice

Stay safe

[piperarcher]

I have had my license for about 5 years. Over time you will fine tune your own methods depending on the hardware and software resources available to you, and your comfort in using (or trusting) them.

For me, I always carry a CAA chart. If I am going outside my local area I always draw lines on it and circle any danger areas, gliding sites and airspace level changes. I tend to draw routes that can make use of VOR tracks in case I need to fly IMC.

I do carry a PLOG but dont bother with wind / drift calculations or leg timings like I did pre-license - I draw the wind direction and speed on my chart and calculate the max drift angle so I can make rough calculations. I do use the PLOG for listing OCAS levels I can fly at, as it helps me with my planning. I also list a radar service I might be able to call up if I need it (saves having to flick through pages of paper, or hunt for numbers on the chart). My PLOG also has frequencies pre-printed for airports in the vicinity of my local area.

For navigation though, I do prefer to load up a route into my Garmin GNS430, and cross reference on a NATS aware. I do that mostly so I can enjoy the flying and the views, and not having to spend ages with my head down in the cockpit and worring about leg timings etc... I have an iPad 2 and have memory map and air nav pro, but as a P1 personally I think it encourages too much head down activity either looking at it, or changing views on it and stuff. I guess thats the advantage of panel mounted GPS's - at least your head is up and has a bit more peripheral vision. I still have my map and PLOG to fall back on if that stuff goes t*ts up.

[englishal]

I rarely draw on my chart these days. I plan the flight on skydemon, print out a PLOG and a couple of A4 maps, and then use the same waypoints that I used in Skydemon in the Garmin Aera. I try to use IFR reporting points so that I can also bung the route into the 430W, though that is not always possible for a VFR flight.

I do try to remember to update the take off time on the PLOG, just in case, but employ pilotage to make sure I am where the GPS thinks I am, in case we lost GPS.

If there are VORs/DME enroute I'd also tune them in.

[dont overfil]

Beware of anything using a Jeppeson database. Loads of smaller airfields, glider sites and parachute sites missing. It may also have you avoiding non existant restricted areas.

D.O.

[neutron]

Sorry for the thread drift but has anybody encountered any in-flight nav problems with the latest batch of GPS jamming trials?

It was historically the case that these trials were held either in the far W of Wales or the far NW of Scotland. Last year there was a big fuss made by the Scottish fishermen whose GPSs were jammed and the Scottish trials were cancelled.

Since then we've seen them at Spadeadum D510 and now there's this one scheduled in D208:

REF: H0524/12 From: 2012-Mar-26 Mon 07:00 To: 2012-Mar-30 Fri 16:00
Schedule: 0700-1600
ICAO: EGTT SFC to 40000FT AMSL
GROUND AND GPS JAMMING WI 54NM RADIUS OF 5229N 00045E (STANFORD
TRAINING AREA, CAMBRIDGESHIRE). AIC P 009/2012 REFERS. CTC 0207453
6530/6535 OR STANTA RANGE CONTROL 01842 855235. 12-03-0017/AS 4

Surely it is irresponsible to carry out these 'trials' beneath or close to such busy pieces of airspace?

[dublinpilot]

Beware of anything using a Jeppeson database. Loads of smaller airfields, glider sites and parachute sites missing. It may also have you avoiding non existant restricted areas.


Is the Jepp database really that bad? I knew that they were missing lots of the smaller airfields, but I hadn't heard before that they had non-existant restricted areas! That one is new on me!

[Winhern]

"If you really feel that way, I suggest a cure would be to attend one of the utterly gripping lectures put up by the Royal Institute of Navigation"

I tried attending one of these lectures, but couldn't find the venue :(

[peterh337]

Is the Jepp database really that bad? I knew that they were missing lots of the smaller airfields, but I hadn't heard before that they had non-existant restricted areas! That one is new on me! I am not aware of extraneous RAs etc shown for UK airspace but they have a habit of doing so for some other places e.g. Switzerland - here is a prize specimen I found a while ago, and no I can't work it out either:

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m74/peterh337/jepp-joke.jpg

(where apparently much of that airspace is active only by Notam - otherwise one look at that airspace would drive most people to do the IR :) )

and also I recall one bit over Italy.

Didn't they also recently show an NDB in Ireland, which had gone years before?

Ultimately, the accuracy of charts (and of flight planning software!) will be say 90-99% and the remainder will depend on how many pilots fly with it, and bother to flag up errors.

IMHO, very few people will bother to flag up errors to Jepp, in Europe, because very few people in Europe fly with the Jepp 1:500k "VFR/GPS" charts, and Jepps European customer service is atrocious. The biggest GA countries by far (UK, Germany, France) all publish their own high quality VFR charts. The German ones are also available electronically, within some pretty slick (German-only) flight planning software.

But if you want uniform representation over most of Europe, Jepp is the only option. They can also be found converted (scanned, probably) for Oziexplorer ;)

[dublinpilot]

The German ones are also available electronically, within some pretty slick (German-only) flight planning software.


And they are available within PocketFMS ;)

As for your Swiss example, I've come across some of those before where it wasn't possible to work out from the chart where the airspace went. (Had the same once or twice with the French IGN ones too!)

[peterh337]

Time I had a look at this PocketFMS thing of yours :)

And the SV option, too.

See ya at EDNY :)

[dont overfil]

Dublinpilot,
Have a look at how Jepp depicts the Otterburn ranges. Strangely they then ignore the Filingdales avoid area.
I took a 45 minute flight this morning from Perth to Insch.
On route was Drumshade gliding club, Aboyne and of course Insch none of which are in their database.
D.O.