Cessna 172N purchase question

[Jidi]

Hello,

I am considering to purchase a Cessna 172N for private flying mostly. I might consider renting it to hour builders to get some cash for personal flying. Now, I've found two options within my budget and have a little dilemma. One has the H2AD engine but only about 300 SMOH and older avionics (Cessna ARC panel: comms, adf, transponder). I know that H2AD had a few problems in its early ages but I convinced they are mostly fixed. Also, the H2AD can not run on MOGAS and that could be a problem since AVGAS is quite limited in my area.
The second one it's fitted with the D2J engine, even if it's also N model. It has upgraded avionics, king comms, mode S transponder, king adf, etc. but it only has 300 hours left on the engine and a couple of years left. It has a MOGAS STC installed as far as I know and the exterior is worse than the first aircraft.

The price is the same on both airplanes.

Considering the limited availability of AVGAS in my area and the other aspects I described what would be your advice for me? What would you choose between these two options?

Also, as far as I understood getting an extension on the engine from CAA is very difficult to obtain since it's never been done before and they're not familiar with the procedures. I believe it's doable, but with quite some hassle and paper work.

Thank you very much in advance for your time and advice!

[Pilot DAR]

I would choose the non H2AD engine airplane every time. Yes, some are better now, but when they go bad, they go bad bad fast, and you're headed directly for expensive maintenance. You'll budget the overhaul cost into the hourly operating cost of the plane. Hopefully, you can convince the authority to allow you to operate the engine (in private operations) beyond recommended TBO. (it is only a recommendtion, not a hard limiting time). There is enough international success with this, that there is a good basis to ask for the privilage, with the international guidance material to support continued airworthiness.

Bear in mind (though I'll be tromped on for saying it), quality, non "oxygenated" Mogas is probably a better gasoline for that engine than Avgas. Avgas is a horrible compromise for the low compression aircraft engines, so the high compression aircraft engines could have a fuel, while to producers only had to make one product. If you can get good quality Mogas, that's what you should use in a Mogas STC'd Cessna. Be sure, that if you are using it with a Mogas STC, the Mogas you get meets the quality requirements of that STC. That might not be quite as simple as it might sound in some parts of the world.

[Dan the weegie]

I've known 2 172s with the H2AD engines and both were replaced very early in their life cycles, a little over 1k hours. A completely new 0-320 is about 20k, a new paint job is about 7k.

Better avionics is kind of irrelevant but okay :)

Mogas STC is very useful indeed although in the case of the Cessna I do think it's pretty much a piece of paper. As DAR said, be careful what fuel you buy.

300 hours is a heck of a lot of flying for one person and that couple of years left is only for aerial work - you can keep it running post 10 years on condition and so long as you're sensible with it there's little reason why you shouldn't. As for extensions, I've never known a lycoming or a continental that didn't get the extension without a big fuss. not that you need it if you're not hiring it out.

172s are great planes to own :).

You should not be paying more than about £25k for these machines.

[smarthawke]

The H2AD is renowned for camshaft problems - apart from by those who own them or are selling them....

[jxc]

Buna

Do you need it for IFR ? if not why don't you look at the permit aircraft

[Jidi]

Thank you all for your replies. Pilot DAR, I get your point and it's almost the same with mine in regards to the H2AD engine after all I've been reading about it. I've flown a H2AD Cessna for about 12 hours, but that's almost zero to have any relevant opinion on the engine also considering my overall limited experience in flying, having my PPL only for two years :)
In regards to the possibility to get an extension, from what I hear CAA will soon release the first extension for a newer Cessna 172 so having a precedence will probably help me getting mine. I'll call them on monday and ask details, rumors is all I have for the moment :)
I'll also have to look into the STC details for the MOGAS as you suggested. There are some major gasoline retailers in the area as OMV, Agip, MOL that have decent auto fuel, but I don't have any other details on the quality of the fuel. I know OMV's 100 gasoline is imported from Austria and not produced locally, same goes with MOL's 100 that is imported from Hungary. The regular gas is produced here by Petrom (OMV owned now) and sold by all others.

Dan, I am aware that the costs of a major overhaul or major maintenance costs versus a paint job. Probably a paint job here will not be more than 2-3k even less, depending on the shop. And you're right, they're priced around 30k euros, so pretty close to your estimated 25k pounds. Unfortunately is all the budget I have for the moment ... so I have two options, either to spend this money now on a pretty used Cessna, or wait a few more years and to hope I'll have a more relaxed budget in the future for a better airframe and engine and rent meanwhile ... hard decision :)

[A and C]

What Smarthawk said !!!

[AN2 Driver]

Jidi, is it this one (http://www.planecheck.com?ent=da&id=17662)? And the other one this one? (http://www.planecheck.com?ent=da&id=17856)

If they are, then my money would be for the first one. I wonder if the hours he indicates are "since" or "to" TBO, otherwise 275 hours is about 3 years of flying at minimum plus you'd have the option to fly on condition thereafter. If you can get it to your budget, and the pre-purchase inspection is ok, then I'd say go for it. Also Avionikwise, I'd go for this one. Mode S, Autopilot and standard King's, that is better than the ARC Cockpit of the 2nd plane.

The 2nd one, apart from the engine, the Avionic is inferior to the 1st one in my opinion.

I have two options, either to spend this money now on a pretty used Cessna, or wait a few more years and to hope I'll have a more relaxed budget in the future for a better airframe and engine and rent meanwhile ...

Well, the point today is that GA is in huge problems. If you want to fly, do it now. You can wait and wait until the cows come home and in the end you'll look back and say "why the hell didn't I do it while I could".

I don't know about Romania, have flown in Bulgaria, where GA is actually on the way up.

[SkyHawk-N]

I have a 172N and my T-modded H2AD was rebuilt last year after having 2,100hrs put on it from re-manufacturer. The engine logbooks show absolutely no work on it at all during that time, no top overhaul, no valve issues and certainly no cam/follower problems. The only reason I had it rebuilt was that it was over TBO and I expect to keep it a good few years yet. Penn Yan, who did the work, examined the cam and followers and sent pictures of them, no evidence of pitting or corrosion on them at all.

I had the opportunity to have it rebuilt as a D2J instead but I chose the H2AD again as I like it so much. Always starts first time (it has 3 cylinder priming) and delivers smooth power. As long as you run it regularly, use the AD'd oil additive, give it regular oil changes (I do it at around 40 hrs) it should be just fine. I now also use Camguard which is supposed to help but for the majority of the time pre-rebuild this was never used.

What people have to understand is EVERY type of engine has it's issues, just look at the recent Lycoming crankshaft problems (which did not affect the H2AD). The H2AD issues were mostly dealt with by the T-mod, which you should ensure has been done to any you look at. Apart from that just do like you should do with all aircraft engines, use them regularly and spend lots of money on clean fresh oil. It's cheap insurance. :ok:

[Jidi]

AN2 Driver, yes, those are the two planes. They have the same owner and the first one, the SES I know pretty well and flown it for about 70 hours. The AP is INOP as far as I know, but probably fixable, I know the airplane since it was brought to Romania some 3-4 years ago and never saw it working.

GA in Romania is at it's very beginning I might say ... I'm not very familiar with the Bulgarian aviation, even that I travel to Bulgaria about 10 times a year, but always driving :) There are only a few airplanes to be rented here, in the Bucharest area .. let's say 2-3 Cessnas. A better situation is to be found in the north-west and probably in the east, at Tuzla where RAS is operating a fleet of DA20. The main issue is the AVGAS here near Bucharest that can only by found at LRBS at about 2.3 EUR/l plus VAT and you also have to pay a 50EUR landing fees just to refuel, not to consider a flight of about 50 minutes from Clinceni to LRBS and back. That's the main problem actually with the H2AD beside all the other aspects discussed here.

Thank you again for your inputs.

[Dan the weegie]

If that's the top of your budget, I would wait. EASA type aircraft are very expensive to run, I've known of multiple people who have bought either as a whole or part of a group this kind of plane and ended up much worse off than expected. Better to hold off and make sure you have 2-5k for running costs spare.

[AN2 Driver]

How is it with Mogas in that area then? I understand that the one plane has the MOGAS STC, that might be then very interesting.

If you were living more towards Serbia, Belgrade is nice as a fuel stop with very low fuel prices and low prices for landing and handling too.

[Jidi]

Not very close to Belgrad, I'm in Bucharest, so about 500 km ... not very attractive just to refuel :) Mogas should be alright, OMV and MOL both have 100 unleaded gasoline at about 1.5 EUR / liter VAT included, I believe it should be ok quality wise.

[achimha]

The Mogas STC is limited to 1% ethanol and your local gas stations either offer E5 or E10 fuel which contain UP TO 5/10%. It varies greatly over time. You might need a fuel alcohol tester (not expensive) or a relaxed attitude.

Personally I would recommend a good 172M over the N. The O320-E2D is very reliable, runs great on Mogas and in my experience, the M performs better than the N because it is lighter. I wouldn't be overly concerned about the TBO, you can run this engine well beyond TBO.