Spanish ATCOs earning £800,000 two years ago! Anything changed?

[dodos9]

Hello guys!
I was doing some research and this came to my attention: Newsvine - Spanish air traffic controllers' salaries are 'millionaire salaries' (http://greywolf.newsvine.com/_news/2010/12/03/5576378-spanish-air-traffic-controllers-salaries-are-millionaire-salaries)

I have heard about this before, but now I looked at the date of these articles (there were more than just this one) and it is January 2010, making it 2 years old. I am wondering whether anything has changed since then. From what I have read, the government wanted to bring the average salary down as soon as possible. It's been two years now and it would be great to have a slight update on what is happening now and whether the wages have been lowered, raised (I doubt! ;p) or stayed the same.

Thanks

[Spitoon]

Ooooh, this is going to be fun.....

[GAPSTER]

Well dodos9 you've obviously found this site before...perhaps a little more reading would take you where you want to be....

....though like Spitoon I'm pulling up a chair for the show:}

[thebeast]

they have indeed been replaced by automatic systems which say

'standard routing' ...'standard routing';)

[dodos9]

I actually thought of putting 'disregard the automatic system part' because it's very controversial and most importantly that is not the point of this article I would like to talk about. It is the figures that I am interested in. Have they changed?

If I wanted to talk about the automatic system I would have asked 'What do you think about automated ATC as stated in this article' but I am not. ;)

Thanks and any news about sorting these wages out?

[dodos9]

I have actually changed a link to a different article which states THE SAME figures as the previous one, but without the unnecessary, controversial part.

[Sonnendec]

Hello,

First of all, those figures were just government propaganda. I´m a spanish controller working since ten years ago at one of the acc´s as supervisor/instructor and I have never seen such salaries, nor even close, even when the big overtime was needed and rewarded generously.

Right now, and only talking about the salary: We supposedly earn 200.000€ average, but we haven´t seen that amount of money either, i think we must be around 140.000€/average for around 1700 working hours and 24h/365days on call duty.

Best regards.

[ron83]

Well which still gives almost 12k a month and only salary as you said. Pretty nice figures,would like to see it all around Europe:} Do you have shortage of ATCO's up there in the island?:E

[clyclayton]

Spanish ATC is the worst, IMHO, in Europe.

[prascho]

Italian is the best:}

[dodos9]

@Sonnendec
Thanks for your reply! It is always nice to hear from someone who definitely know what they are talking about. Yours and the article's figures differ significantly, but as you said if it is a propaganda then it is very exaggerated. I have to admit that I actually believed in those figures from the article in first place. However, as you stated the average being 140,000EUR, then this means that a lot of controllers earn more than that so that the salary can average out at this figure including all the new ATCOs who earn less I believe.

@ron83
I am wondering why the salaries differ so much from other countries. Also, from looking at AENA's website (not thoroughly though, I have to admit) I don't think they are looking for new candidates at the moment.

@clyclayton, prascho
I can't really comment on these myself

[Lssar]

Just my 2 cents: the average my colleague mentioned (140.000€) is before taxes. In Spain, with that income, taxes rise up to 47-49%, depending on the region you live in.

[dodos9]

@Lssar
No way!!! Almost 50% of taxes! That seems like a lot! Well, that sort of pulls it towards what other countries' ATCOS earn I believe.

[Sonnendec]

Of course, average 140.000€ is BEFORE taxes, sorry for not clarifying that in my first post.

12k a month? hahahaha, i wish... :=

[blissbak]

never mind

[Out The Gap]

dodos9,

From what I recall, those meteoric salary figures headlined the media's attack on Spanish ATCOs when (I stand to be corrected here) just three of them, probably quite senior, out of the entire Aena ATCO workforce, agreed to work every single day of an entire year on a dual/parallel runway operations project at LEMD, hence the ridiculously obscene amount of overtime involved. Exactly what hours were involved, I have no idea...

Now that privatisation is rearing its ugly head at 47 of the towers in the airports and heliports, you can drastically reduce such figures for future TWR-only rated ATCOs. Read http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/477265-nats-atcos-spain.html for example and take a wild guess at what the eventual outcome will be.. but the salaries will most likely be paltry in comparison. Meanwhile, as mentioned above, the salaries in the ACCs and the towers yet-to-be-privatised don't fare too bad, compared with the rest of Europe and more importantly, the average income in Spain itself.

[beachbumflyer]

Sonnendec, 24h/365 days on call duty?

[Lord Spandex Masher]

€140000 gross is €87900 net, so about €7300 a month. There are regional variances but only 1 or 2%.

Spain's average annual income is roughly €2300 a month. Maybe a bit more.

1700 hours a year is 36 hours a week assuming you get 6 weeks leave per year, you do get your month off in one go don't you?! So 24/7/365 is crap isn't it.

Plus you're all rubbish and unprofessional and the worst "service" I have ever received in Europe.

Is it "because you're worth it"?

[Sonnendec]

beachbumflyer said:

Sonnendec, 24h/365 days on call duty?

Yup. We have a theorical 1670h working hours limit per year, plus around 50 training hours, plus 80 extra hours more. BUT, and here is the trick, we can be forced to work any day, any shift, out of our roster, (and they do) and those hours don´t count for the so-called working hours limit.

At the end, you are available 24/365 for Aena. By law.

:ugh:

[aldegar]

Plus you're all rubbish and unprofessional and the worst "service" I have ever received in Europe.


Wow, thanks for the feedback! Very useful, you've opened me eyes. I'll try to be a better ATCO from now on.

[Johnny Tightlips]

Some of these people don't even know the difference between indicated airspeed and groundspeed! Last week going into Madrid we reduced speed to 250 kias as requested (with 125 track miles to go of course) and the next thing the controller asked us in the usual abrupt and sarcastic way why had we not reduced speed as told and said we were doing 360! Yes we were doing a groundspeed of 360, the VMO on my aircraft is 340:rolleyes: The Captain tried to explain this and even gave him a bit of a lesson on the effect of altitude on indicated airspeed, but the controller just didn't get it.

Of course the Iberia ahead who was also told to do 250 had obviously slowed to 220 without telling anyone to try and f!@k us over and that didn't help things....

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Wow, thanks for the feedback! Very useful, you've opened me eyes. I'll try to be a better ATCO from now on.

You've seen the video right? Just trying to be an ATCO would be a pretty good start.

[aldegar]

Thank you so much again, so much wisdom in your words... I'm really learning a lot. Please, continue. By reading you (as well as Johnny) I may even get to be an ATCO some day.

[FLSV]

Some of these people don't even know the difference between indicated airspeed and groundspeed! Last week going into Madrid we reduced speed to 250 kias as requested (with 125 track miles to go of course) and the next thing the controller asked us in the usual abrupt and sarcastic way why had we not reduced speed as told and said we were doing 360! Yes we were doing a groundspeed of 360, the VMO on my aircraft is 340 The Captain tried to explain this and even gave him a bit of a lesson on the effect of altitude on indicated airspeed, but the controller just didn't get it.

Of course the Iberia ahead who was also told to do 250 had obviously slowed to 220 without telling anyone to try and f!@k us over and that didn't help things....

If this is true do you think this is a problem coused by managements lack of understanding that you have to give controllers education or do you think it is because the controller is stupid?

[Not Long Now]

I think it should be impossible to be an ATCO and not know the difference between IAS and ground speed.

[Plazbot]

Hey dodos9, why do you care? Sounds fishy.

[Johnny Tightlips]

If this is true do you think this is a problem coused by managements lack of understanding that you have to give controllers education or do you think it is because the controller is stupid?

I don't know really! Of course they should be taught all of this theory but if this controller had any genuine interest in his job he would know this very very basic stuff....

I think it should be impossible to be an ATCO and not know the difference between IAS and ground speed.

Spain has to be the only place where this can be possible.

[Sonnendec]

I think it should be impossible to be an ATCO and not know the difference between IAS and ground speed.

Spain has to be the only place where this can be possible.

With all respect, i think its stupid to think that we, spanish controllers, don´t know the difference between GS and IAS (It´s simply impossible). For what you have told about the situation, i´m sure the controller just didn´t believe you when you said that you were maintaining 250IAS. :ugh:

Best regards.

[Johnny Tightlips]

With all respect, i think its stupid to think that we, spanish controllers, don´t know the difference between GS and IAS (It´s simply impossible). For what you have told about the situation, i´m sure the controller just didn´t believe you when you said that you were maintaining 250IAS. :ugh:


He clearly said 360 indicated. I could not believe it at first either but we asked him to say again as we taught we heard it wrong, but no....

[Phalconphixer]

dodos 9... 16 yrs old huh...

Sorry son, but at 16 you do not have the life experience to comment on anything other than the relative merits of Maccy D's vs Burger King or Coca- Cola vs Pepsi.

Either that or you lied about your age and are in fact some sad old journo or forum troll looking to stir the pot.

What is important here is that AENA and the Spanish Government shafted the ATC controllers in exactly the same manner as Thatcher stuffed the miners and steelworkers in the UK, using exactly the same tactics. Poison the public with half truths and out and out lies, recruit and manipulate the media, and when that doesn't work out send in the heavies...

Seen it all before and believe me you haven't seen an end to it yet; across Europe the peasants are revolting against labour reforms which are geared to ensure that they get screwed whilst the top 5% get a whole lot richer.

[beachbumflyer]

Sonnendec,

And what about your month vacation?

And Johnny, your spelling isn't that great either.

[Sonnendec]

He clearly said 360 indicated. I could not believe it at first either but we asked him to say again as we taught we heard it wrong, but no....

Well, i can´t understand that kind of confusion in a controller (spanish or not), but i´ll take your word and believe that it was a "lapsus linguae". Can´t find any other explanation.

Thx. Best regards.

[Sonnendec]

Sonnendec,

And what about your month vacation?

And Johnny, your spelling isn't that great either.

They can just cancel my holidays if they need it on behalf of "service continuity" and reassign them for me. Same applies to everything else.

Best regards.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Sonnendec,

So you still get your month off?

Aldegar,

If you're after sympathy or empathy why don't you tell us what you are doing to improve the service you are supposed to be providing and getting paid €7000/month for.

[aldegar]

Aldegar,

If you're after sympathy or empathy why don't you tell us what you are doing to improve the service you are supposed to be providing and getting paid €7000/month for.

I read all your posts, isn't that enough? :}


Ok, ironic mode off.


The question is not what I'm doing to improve the service but what is my company doing about it.

I certainly try to do my best. I regularly visit FAA and CAA websites and download manuals and documents, I read forums like pprune, subscribe to magazines like Pilot, try to fly as much as possible with my PPL as well as with the Flight Simulator... (ok, I actually do this for fun rather than to improve the service, but it helps!).

HOWEVER, it's been more than three years now since my company has taken me to the simulator (you guys go at least once a year), and no plans to go in the near future. Incredible as it may seem, we don't get to simulate changes in our airspace, new procedures, unusual situations, emergencies... Is that to blame on us?

Just as an example, there is a sector at my ACC in wich I haven't worked at since last september (as air traffic drops with the end of the high season it is usually closed). In about three months (around june) I'll come to work one day and find that I'll have to control that sector (with no simulator practice beforehand, of course). After almost one year without sitting in that sector, do you expect me to be "professional"?

I'm eager to learn, practice, simulate... but my company does nothing about it (and I have complained about it, with no answer of course).

And then I come to this forum and get INSULTED by you ("rubbish", "unprofessional", "worst service"...) and Johnny (I'm so fool I don't know the difference between IAS and GS). Believe me, I'm not after your simpathy/empathy...

[SINGAPURCANAC]

I have to....

I do understand Spanish atcos position. " ..to loose what you had...." I have passed it many times ,sometimes personally ,sometimes I have witnessed it...
I work with colleagues who lost T&C, overnight, literary. From 3 to 4 000 DM to just a few, war, refugee status and rest came as "additional benfits"
So "Spanish ATC Case" is nothing,believe or not.

Nevermind, I have worked so far, for three different ANS providers. Different systems, different countries, different money....
But None of these has ever received so many negative comments on public forums, social networks and so on. I do feel that if they recieve by any means of communications 1 % of comments given on AENA service, there will be managers hangin' on local square,as an example to others http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif

From my point of view, something is very wrong. you may blame whoever you want, but something is wrong.
We have special threads at least at two different places only on this forum, plus negative public view plus very negative consumer rate( the most important thing) .
There is no ANSPs,at least in Europe with such rating. Google it, if you do not believe.

Stick to your job, do it professionally and you may expect improvements.
Blaming management and ministry for situations is ridiculous.
It won't change bad service,if it exists as such at all. And it is obvious that some bad practices exists.

Take wider picture, without efficient air service, you are at even bigger problem.

[clyclayton]

I do not wish to insult anyone. I keep words like "rubbish" etc. out of this forum.
But, as a matter of fact, in Spain there is the worst ATC service in western world. I do not have reason to be harsh with Spain in general and I do not give a XXXX on how much Spain's ATC controllers earn. The fact, and I do not think I am the only airline pilot around to think like this, is that their performance is definitely poor.

Try to ask Madrid or Barcelona for a shortcut...

@ aldegar (http://www.pprune.org/members/321087-aldegar) "worst service" is not an insult, it is not in English, it is not in Italian and I am pretty sure it is not in Spanish as well.

[beachbumflyer]

Well, I think ATC in Greece is even worse. It's been a while since I flew there.

[Denti]

Greek ATC isn't great either, but the do improve slowly and are by now quite a bit better than their spanish brethren. Sadly with their financial crisis at the moment there is not a big chance they will switch out their pre-WW II radios for some better units any time soon though.

[clyclayton]

Greece has improved a lot in the last 15 years. And, IMHO, is better than Spain.

[Syntax]

This video is always worth pointing out when we are on the subject. This behavior while on active duty is a good summing up.

They aren't being dishonest, they genuinely think they are the best. Their inability to comprehend how low in the rankings they stand is really the bit to marvel at.

Nepotism and cronyism run rife in many aspects of Spanish life and in civil service recruitment it has been particularly acute. This is what happens when you employ people who want to be civil servants for financial and security reasons and have no real interest in aviation, air traffic controlling or display any apparent aptitude for the job.

I expect that many of them will argue black is white in the face of incontrovertible facts to the contrary. We all have our national traits and this ability and tendency is theirs.

C7Wt7DfugaA

[INTERNATIONALATCO]

Spot on mate, spot on! The video says it all. :hmm:

[Akhorahil]

Spanish ATCOs are the best in the "flight plan adherence" iniciative by Eurocontrol. All pilots fliying in spanish airspace agree with that. 99% of flights or even more stick now to their flight plan in Spain, don´t you agree with that?.

Lots of pilots (spanish pilots in spanish forums also) complained about LEMD app, saying they were given vectos very far from the airport, sometimes up to 100 miles, and said London was a good example, with holdings when needed. Now they have holdings when needed and also complain. It is clearly imposible to make all pilots happy.

Our only "black hole" are the 47 class A incidents in 2010. But a spanish politician said they were "misssing" 2 weeks ago. Well, you really can´t expect we are up to the job if we can´t rest the minimum time per week establish by spanish law, 36 hours, than AENA has been "ignoring" for the last 2 years.

Finally slots and delays are never our fault. It is the system capacity. A controller NEVER issue a slot, it is CFMU, according to the capacity of the system. When I go to work I am told where to work and what is the capacity of the sector, have no option to change that, so don´t blame me for the system dessing failures. LECM has the same configuration as it had in 2003, and seems the traffic and demand has changed since then... don´t expect changes in the near future as the managment staff are totally inept for their job.

That´s all.

[Tom!]

Some tight vectoring over there
Incident: Brussels A319 and Iberia A320 at Barcelona on Feb 8th 2012, loss of separation on final approach (http://avherald.com/h?article=44c5f743&opt=1)

[Spitoon]

Spanish ATCOs are the best in the "flight plan adherence" iniciative by Eurocontrol,Mmmm, but Eurocontrol only did it for two days - see their website (http://www.eurocontrol.int/dmean/public/standard_page/FPL_ATFCM_adherence.html).

[Denti]

Well, lateral flight plan adherence in spain is pretty much 100%. Since they are too afraid to give directs and do not know how to do that in the first place of course lateral adherence is great. Vertical adherence however is very very low indeed because they are not flexible enough anymore to clear one up according to flight plan while changing the lateral path to accomodate that. Means that flying through spain costs quite a lot more fuel than calculated, several millions worth of fuel per year which is equally bad for the environment and of course the airlines.

[belk78]

Congratulations! You can't say more bull**** with less words.. why don't you tell us the name of the airline you work for?

[dav_vader]

Guys, some of you are really funny.

After 6 years of ATCO in Fuerteventura what I ´ve learned is:

Italian pilots fly same as they play football. Cheating, lies, ... I´m really fed up of hear " TWR, in 2 minutes we arrrrrre rrrrready for push-back, Is possible an extension of the slot? WTF!!!!!

Some of the english, (fortunately not all) Mate you are not sitting in Manchester asking for a pint of guinness in your local pub, so if you don´t mind, speak aeronautical english, not slang.

So, Italian, English, French,.... Many of you Captains should do a little of self-criticism before saying "Spanish atc is the worst of Europe..."

By the way, German, IMHO are the best, polite and professional people flying our skies.

[pablo]

Spanish ATS (Air Traffic Services) can be a pain, but rather than pointing to the individuals that provide the service, why don't you care to look a bit further up the chain-of-command?

I'm not here to defend anyone, and I have been at the receiving end many times and I don't wear their shirt, but I'm pretty sure if an ATCO makes a mess because for a moment he/she decided to think outside the box and give a guy a direct or whatever, the rainfall of defecal matter from management could be of astronomic proportions (any of the guys here correct me if I'm wrong).

I think the company culture and mostly management are to blame for the lack of efficiency of AENA, not the individuals.

Same goes for most public services, government, etc... although sometimes I think maybe we Spaniards are to blame for allowing it to be like that.

btw... I read in this thread somewhere that the average salary in Spain is 2300€/month, that may be the statistical average, but the "normal" salary for a normal worker is 800-1000€/month, and cost of life and taxes are not much lower than the rest of Europe.

[Phalconphixer]

A little bit of thread drift, but in view of the fact that the OP has disappeared off the face of the earth, thus confirming my original suspicion that he is either a sick journo or someone just trying to stir the pot with a known inflammatory subject...

pablo... I totally agree with you...

Spanish ATS (Air Traffic Services) can be a pain, but rather than pointing to the individuals that provide the service, why don't you care to look a bit further up the chain-of-command?

I'm not here to defend anyone, and I have been at the receiving end many times and I don't wear their shirt, but I'm pretty sure if an ATCO makes a mess because for a moment he/she decided to think outside the box and give a guy a direct or whatever, the rainfall of defecal matter from management could be of astronomic proportions (any of the guys here correct me if I'm wrong).

I think the company culture and mostly management are to blame for the lack of efficiency of AENA, not the individuals.

Same goes for most public services, government, etc... although sometimes I think maybe we Spaniards are to blame for allowing it to be like that.

btw... I read in this thread somewhere that the average salary in Spain is 2300€/month, that may be the statistical average, but the "normal" salary for a normal worker is 800-1000€/month, and cost of life and taxes are not much lower than the rest of Europe.

This is so true... for those who may be interested and for the benefit of others so quick to decry the efforts of the Spanish people, two links which demonstrate just what the youth of today is up against...

1,000 euros a month? Dream on (http://elpais.com/elpais/2012/03/12/inenglish/1331575980_208983.html)

The frustration of young Spain | In english | EL PAÍS (http://elpais.com/elpais/2012/03/11/inenglish/1331494804_093749.html)

These people are Spain's future.

pp

[ALLSKY]

Hello everyone guys,
I was reading this 3D and I saw there were some replys from a couple of spanish ATCO like Sonnendec and Aldegar and that they seems two fair guys open to a talk.

I just would like to ask you a few things, without any polemics, just to better understand your point of view and the reason why you do what you r doing.

Since one year and a half I am based in BCN El Prat with Ryanair, we do a lot of domestic flights inside Spain and the fact I really dont understand is why you guys dont give any more direct routing or any FL changes.
I know you are fed up with AENA for many reasons, you would like a better contract etc etc, but I really dont see how acting with this kind of "white strike" (no shortcuts, no FL's) can help you to obtain what you want.
You then always answer :"I call you back if possible" when you, and us, already know its not gonna happen.

Second little point I dont like/understand is this general aggressivity and impatience that it comes out in your trasmissions especially when we start asking for a repetition of an instruction; stuff like "yes Sir, as I ALREADY TOLD YOU..." is very common to hear.
From my little exp. you dont really hear that in any other country.

Ok no I stop, I really hope we can open a nice discussion with you guys Spain ATCO.
Waiting for some feedback
A nice day

[mebur_verce]

Italian pilots fly same as they play football. Cheating, lies, ... I´m really fed up of hear " TWR, in 2 minutes we arrrrrre rrrrready for push-back, Is possible an extension of the slot? WTF!!!!!

I'm an Italian ATCO and work with (well, the right word would be 'for', if you believe in the 'service provider' thing) Italian pilots on a daily basis, so I know what you (think you) are talking about. Yes, there are some cheaters, but I've found that 99% of the pilots will underestimate their taxi time when they have an expiring slot, regardless of nationality/airline. By the way, have you ever tried saying "no" when it is clear that they won't make it? Works every time for me and that doesn't make me any more stressed. Actually, I wouldn't be doing any favour to my colleagues of the following sectors, should I let an aircraft depart outside of the slot tolerance window.

As for the Brits, in my experience they are amongst the most polite crews around. Clear, smart and cooperative. Oh and believe me, none of them has ever burped on my frequency following a drinking session in a Manchester pub - yet!

[Delta Whiskey]

Hands up all the pilots who have been saying disparaging things about Spanish (& other) ATCs and who work for an employer who imposes the working conditions endured by Spanish controllers.

I'd be pretty disinterested in doing a decent job regardless of how much of an "aviation person" I was.

I'd also expect a pretty darned good salary** to allow my employer to:

1. Compulsorily call me back to work on my off duty days - no arguments, no options, and no reinstatement of said "rest" days on alternative dates.

2. Cancel the annual leave I had had approved (and maybe had laid out a wad of cash on an overseas trip) without explanation other than to say it's for "service continuance" - ie we've buggered up the roster and you've been fingered to bail us out. If the leave is re scheduled for another date there's no reason the same thing will not occur.

Treat your workers fairly & well and they'll go the extra mile for you - treat them like s**t and you'll get back what you deserve.

** On second thoughts I'd tell him to stick his job up his bum!!

:ugh:

[pablo]

I doubt very much slowing down other traffics is a standard practice among IB captains. Probably there is an icehole or two, same as in any other company, but what you are saying I think is over the top.

And ATC giving priority to IB and ANS traffic, I find it hard to believe that it's also an standard practice.

I understand Spanish ATC service can be close to infuriating in some cases but... some of this stuff I think is too much, and I think you keep on blaming the "individual", instead of looking further up.

And I think IB pilots have nothing to do with IB Express.

[Tom!]

And ATC giving priority to IB and ANS traffic, I find it hard to believe that it's also an standard practice.
Happened a few times to me already that I was vectored to let an Iberia ahead.

Last time it was in Alicante where we were told to ''standard arrival and reduce minimum clean'' at 50+ miles out only to see on our right wing an Iberia A320 fly by at high speed to become number one...

[pablo]

I can't tell you are a liar or that it was a one-off occurrence what happened to you because it's been a long time I flew IFR in Spain (and never been an airline pilot), but if that's a standard practice it's unacceptable.

I know they have a bad habit of delaying GA traffic (including bizjets), but I expected airlines to be treated equally.

But even then, I think the guy providing the service is just the messenger, the orders come from above. If I wanted to land at Phoenix Sky Harbor in a DA40 and ATC management said it was not possible, even though the best intentions and wishes of the controller giving the service, I could not have landed there, I don't know if you guys follow me.

I will give you an example... I used to freelance for Flight Precision when they were doing navaid calibration for Aena, and the ones deciding when they could fly, perform approaches, etc... were the APP and TWR bosses and ultimately higher management from Madrid. In all Spanish airports they had a lot of restrictions, while in other countries their job was very easy.
So was it because all Spanish controllers are useless or maybe because the managers didn't want to push it? I'm talking 5-6 yrs ago.

And the amount of pressure we had from Aena management was not easy to bear for me, as I was 22-23 at the time and still fairly naive.
Besides I also worked for Aena in the ARO at LEVX, and in the FBO which involved dealing a lot with Aena staff and management.

So that's why I'm telling you to not really blame the controllers but look a bit further up, because I think I know what I'm talking about.

[mebur_verce]

I doubt very much slowing down other traffics is a standard practice among IB captains.

Not sure whether they do it on purpose or not, but they certainly do slow down other traffic when taxiing, at least in my experience. Any idea as to why they have such a ridiculously low taxi speed?

[pablo]

I thought you meant flying, that's why I was finding it really weird.
Taxiing... no clue really why they would taxi slow. Maybe you are catching them in the start of the rotation (if you are a lucky guy like me :} ), in the last day of the rotation they probably do better taxi speeds.

[Candor]

Hello guys!
I was doing some research and this came to my attention: Newsvine - Spanish air traffic controllers' salaries are 'millionaire salaries' (http://greywolf.newsvine.com/_news/2010/12/03/5576378-spanish-air-traffic-controllers-salaries-are-millionaire-salaries)

I have heard about this before, but now I looked at the date of these articles (there were more than just this one) and it is January 2010, making it 2 years old. I am wondering whether anything has changed since then. From what I have read, the government wanted to bring the average salary down as soon as possible. It's been two years now and it would be great to have a slight update on what is happening now and whether the wages have been lowered, raised (I doubt! ;p) or stayed the same.

Thanks With all due respect, I am so tired of hearing people and the mass media these figures around 800K€-900K€ annual salary. Therefore, I have just created this account to finally write here the TRUE figures of Spain and other European countries as well -I do not question the cost of living-.
I will not write about Spanish situation or political mismanagement. I am not criticizing anything. This is not my point of view, I just want you to know the truth. I will write down the reliable sources, accurately, not approximated figures read in forums or rumours.
Regards.

Spain:
The salary is established in the official state bulletin, concretely in the “BOE 9Marzo2011-4372”. This document changed the previous collective agreement and is the one under which AENA ATCO's are currently undergoing. In it you can read the gross salary in pages 140 to 145, which is divided according to the professional level. You can read the professional level division in page 66.
Annual working hours: maximum 1670 hours (plus max. 80 extra hours per year) in 2011 and 2012 , maximum 1595 hours (plus max. 80 extra hours per year ) in 2013 (Page 8).
Source: http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2011/03/09/pdfs/BOE-A-2011-4372.pdf (http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2011/03/09/pdfs/BOE-A-2011-4372.pdf)

Nevertheless, regarding the new TWR ATCO’s the situation is completely different. These are the true conditions that FerroNATS is currently offering in its towers, at least in LEJR (Jerez): with up to 4 years of previous experience a gross annual salary of 32K€, 4-7 years of previous experience 36K€ gross, more than 7 years of previous experience 40K€ gross. A bonus of 1120€-2400€ if you are supervisor, instructor or evaluator, and a 3000€ TWR complement.
Source: https://hotfile.com/dl/150437051/5fe98b3/Ferronats.pdf.html (https://hotfile.com/dl/150437051/5fe98b3/Ferronats.pdf.html)

Skyguide (Switzerland):
First license: annual salary of CHF 89'200 (74000€) to 99'500 (82500€).
One year after obtaining full licence: from CHF 105'627 (87500€) to 137'909 (114500€).
After 25 years: from CHF 151'359 (125500€) to 195'074 (161500€).
Source: http://www.skyguide.ch/en/company/careers/air-traffic-controller/ (http://www.skyguide.ch/en/company/careers/air-traffic-controller/)

Eurocontrol (MUAC):
Advanced trainee air traffic controller: 3178€ monthly net salary (3802€-Single expatriate).
Air traffic controller: 3716€ monthly net salary (4457€-Single expatriate).
“Household” and “Child” allowances and the “ATC allowance” are not included. Working shifts entitles staff to payment of a flat-rate shift allowance which is set at € 1530 for those working a 24/7 shift .
Source: http://www.eurocontrol.int/faq/air-traffic-controller-jobs (http://www.eurocontrol.int/faq/air-traffic-controller-jobs) (What is the salary of an air traffic controller at EUROCONTROL? (http://www.eurocontrol.int/faq/air-traffic-controller-jobs#faq_599))

NATS (UK):
(2009/10 rates)
Once valid at a unit: £29,443 (35K€) - £32,814 (39K€), depending on the unit.
When you become an ATCO - on your third joining anniversary, subject to validation: £42,061 (50K€) - £46,878 (55800€) plus shift pay of £5,543 (6500€). After qualifying, you could potentially earn over £91,000 (108500€) (inclusive of shift pay) at Swanwick and Heathrow.
Source: http://atcocareers.co.uk/pages/air-traffic-controllers/faqs.html (http://atcocareers.co.uk/pages/air-traffic-controllers/faqs.html) (Terms and conditions>What are the salary and salary prospects?)

Belgocontrol (Belgium):
After training: 3100€ gross/month.
When you succeed in obtaining the title of ADR, ACS or APS: 5900€ - 6900€ gross/month depending on the position.
Source: http://www.belgocontrol.be/belgoweb/publishing.nsf/AttachmentsByTitle/FAQ_en.pdf/$FILE/FAQ_en.pdf (http://www.belgocontrol.be/belgoweb/publishing.nsf/AttachmentsByTitle/FAQ_en.pdf/$FILE/FAQ_en.pdf) (page 1)

LVNL (Netherlands):
At the start of your course, which lasts about four years: 26500€ gross per year.
After fully qualified: 75000€. Experienced ATCO: 120000€.
Source: http://www.studentenwerk.nl/vacatures/40591-the-sky-is-the-limit-als-luchtverkeersleider (http://www.studentenwerk.nl/vacatures/40591-the-sky-is-the-limit-als-luchtverkeersleider) (Goede verdiensten)

Naviair (Denmark)
During UNIT training, which lasts about 18 months: 18,000 kr.(2400€) per month.
A newly-qualified ATCO with the work in Copenhagen, serving the first year approx. DKK 550,000 (74000€) per year, increasing to approx. 900,000 kr.(121000€).
Source: http://www.flyveleder.com/Default.aspx?id=30&newsid30=6 (http://www.flyveleder.com/Default.aspx?id=30&newsid30=6) or
www.flyveleder.com/ref.aspx?id=218 (http://www.flyveleder.com/ref.aspx?id=218)

[atcsstudent]

allrounder99, Zapatero (Spanish prime minister until last year) said that the crisis was over, Bush said that in Irak he would find mass destruction weapons,... nonsense
What you just said in your post is nonsense!
But I'll tell you something if they paid me that per hour it would be great!!
I just ask you one thing believe what us, Spanish controllers, are telling you, if I could I would move to any country in Europe with all my family but no atcos offers at the moment.
Regards

[Out The Gap]

allrounder99, if that IFATCA article is the one I think it is, (circa Autumn 2010 in the build-up to the strike), it mentions three LEMD ATCOs who worked allegedly every single day for an entire year, giving them the colossal overtime that caught the attention of the media.

Thanks candor for exposing the figures and how Spanish salaries have been drastically slashed, almost overnight. Now lets see if the media will be as quick to excite/enrage the Spanish public as they did before... hardly.

[pablo]

Isn't it illegal to work 365 days in a row?
It's mentioned before in this thread that it was part of an experiment, but even so... what would be the scope of that? (other than a huge paycheck?)

[SINGAPURCANAC]

three LEMD ATCOs who worked allegedly every single day for an entire year,

stupid,
greed ,
or least likely, desperate for money(i.e they need money for something else other than greed motives such as bigger car, bigger flat, a new fashion collection...)?

and

what kind of system you have when some people work evry single day?
No one reacts,
managers,
union leaders,
profesional association excutives,
work inspection,
tax office.....

anyhow your system , not atcos, deserves large scale cleaning.
:ugh:

[Out The Gap]

Yes pablo, it was actually me who mentioned it earlier in post #16 ;) It was an IFATCA article with excerpts/interviews from Spanish ATCOs, that mentioned the dual-runways project at LEMD. Maybe it is illegal to work every single day of the year (I'm not sure of Spanish law), but it wouldn't be the first time Aena engaged in unsavoury work practices, now would it?

By the way, when will the first FerroNATS personnel 'arrive' in your tower? And what is your attitude to them doing so?

[Daermon ATC]

Isn't it illegal to work 365 days in a row?

I know you made that question as a rethorical hook so I'll bite to let non-spanish readers have a bit of insight. ;)

Spanish atcos can be ordered by law 9/2010 (http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2010/04/15/pdfs/BOE-A-2010-5983.pdf) to work 365 days a year if needed. Sure, there are other regulations stating we can't (Worker's Statute for example) but the catch is that those are of lesser rank that the above law.

As a practical example, spanish atcos protested to the arbiter who made our current workframe with Aena about some abusive interpretations by the company, specifically by using a 6-2 shift (6 days work, 2 days off... no, no additional "sleeping day"). The arbiter agreed with us and ordered that Aena was not to continue using that roster ... you want to know what Aena did?

Yep, you got it. They invoqued article 2.1 of the aforementioned law and said that in order to provide ats thy would have to mantain thos shifts... and that's it.

:uhoh:

[pablo]

Rather than rethorical, I was meaning that even though it was claimed to be an "experiment", I don't know to which extent it's legal anyway.
In any case, that 'experiment' was performed before the new rules, wasn't it?

The new rules are a shame (besides the schedules, also paying for ATCO training is a shame, only country in Europe that does that).

[Spitoon]

....also paying for ATCO training is a shame, only country in Europe that does that).You may find a few Brit-trained controllers will disagree with you there.