Deadlines not to miss for UK ppl holders.

[echobeach]

There is quite a lot for your average ppl not to miss in the next few months and years.

The forum has been helpful in making sure that all of these are discussed on a separate basis.It seems that a super 'notam' is needed so we don't miss something.

I have read most of the topics but I though it might be helpful to make sure those of us of average understanding have all this correct.

I have summarised the following that I can see I have to know ; additions welcome.

Those with a JAR ppl don't have to do anything til next renewal when it becomes an EASA license on renewal.For an appropriate fee. Til then we fly on the same licence though it's called something else.

If you have an ImC rating on the JAR licence you can probably use it til April 2014 when something similar that you can use on an EASA ppl can perhaps take over though it's a bit unclear as yet. (I am nearly done with the IR just in case)

For those of us that fly in the south east pay speak always to Southend radar with new SSR capabilities from April 2nd, as there are a few orange airbuses in class G from that date.

From July til september all flying around the London TMA will be on a vfr flight plan talking initially to Atlas control which sounds quite cool.

The new charts are about to be issued.

Have I missed something out ?

[flybymike]

Yeah. Wot about me UK CAA "lifetime" (har har) PPL.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Wot about me UK CAA "lifetime" (har har) PPL.
Me Sir! Please Sir! I know that one!

The answer is:

"You get to keep it as long as you like, which is extremely useful as that means you can keep your IMCr, and you can then use it ... to fly any aeroplane you like as long as it's on a list of non-IFR-capable aircraft."

[maxred]

Oh good, thats me sorted then..........:rolleyes:

[Whopity]

It seems that a super 'notam' is needed so we don't miss something. This (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/620/Revised%20pdf%201%20March%2012CAA4459_EASA_quickguide_emaile r.pdf) is about as good as its going to get

[distaff_beancounter]

AND another thing .....
I was about to wander down to the Gatwick Joke Factory to trade-up my UK-PPL for a JAR-PPL. (This was after I discovered that if I did not, once EASA takes over I could fly a Spitfire (if anyone was mad enough to lend me one!) but not a basic PA28.

Anyhow I thought I should call the CAA just to check that I had got all the correct paperwork apart from the payment of £181.

I was told that I only have an English Language Proficiency Certificate at Level 4 whereas I need Level 6 to get a JAR licence. The CAA person, who had a strong foreign accent, was not impressed by my arguement that: I am a UK National; born in London with all education, professional training and flight training carried out in England.

It is only possible to check your level by calling the CAA as the level is not shown on any licence. However I understand that us oldies with UK-PPLs were automatically given level 4 only when this rule came in a few years ago.

So I need to get the examiner who did my last IMC renewal to sign form SRG1199 just to prove that I have an adequate command of 'Inglish like wot she is spoke'.

[maxred]

Why, oh why, do I not think that is a wind up:confused:

[peterh337]

Not a wind-up; I had to get my Level 6 ELP signed by the JAA IR examiner last month because, apparently, I never had it before.

I have been in the UK since 1969 and got the initial UK/JAA PPL in 2001.

Actually there is a serious side to ICAO ELP and that is the huge % of non-UK ATCOs who cannot speak English beyond the few stock phrases. However, it appears that they will find ways to circumvent this requirement; unsuprising since so many would be affected in certain countries and particularly in those countries they are rather well organised...

[Prop swinger]

Not a wind-up; I had to get my Level 6 ELP signed by the JAA IR examiner last monthI think we were wondering why anyone would bother applying for a JAR PPL.

[distaff_beancounter]

I think we were wondering why anyone would bother applying for a JAR PPL.

I have been happily flying around on my UK-PPL for more than two decades and never had the slightest desire for a JAA-PPL. BUT it seems that while the CAA will be automatically issuing EASA-PPLs to JAA-PPL holders it will not do the same for UK-PPL holders, except the CAA did say that this may change! It is good to know that the CAA knows what it is doing :{

Furthermore it seems that there is a limited time in which UK-PPLs can be traded up to JAA-PPLs. According to the CAA the cut off was originally 8th April 2012, then changed to 1st July 2012 BUT this may or may not be extended to 2014. Again, it is good to know that the CAA knows what it is doing :ugh:

AND there may be a slight chance that eventually (this year? next year? sometime? never?) the CAA may issue EASA-PPLs direct from UK-PPLs. On the other hand it may not so I have decided to give in, pay my £181 for a licence that I never wanted, nor needed just to ensure that I can get an EASA-PPL.

What are the rest of you UK-PPLs doing about this? Or are you just as puzzled as I am? :confused:

[maxred]

I think we are all totally puzzled also. I have been attempting to find out what to do but it appears no one actually knows. I asked our CFI at the club, he looked at me blankly. All quite bizarre

[Prop swinger]

What are the rest of you UK-PPLs doing about this?As a non-commercial VFR-only pilot, I expect to convert my CAA PPL directly to an EASA PPL sometime before April 2015.

Attachment 4, p19 of this CAA document (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=620&pagetype=90&pageid=11675) has the details.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

What are the rest of you UK-PPLs doing about this?
Waiting for the CAA to tell me once and for all what sort of licence I should get that

(1) allows me to use my IMCr, and
(2) allows me to fly real aeroplanes.

Until I know the answer to that question it is surely ******* obvious that I am not going to fork out hundreds of pounds for what might be an unnecessary, or even worse wrong, licence.

[Squeegee Longtail]

.... and what about those who are flying around VFR on FAA Private certs in UK?

[peterh337]

Ones doing it in an N-reg will need to get EASA PPLs (and medicals) by April 2014.

Ones doing it in a G-reg (using the automatic validation) will not be able to do it after a certain date... 2014 or 2015?

[Squeegee Longtail]

"Ones doing it in a G-reg (using the automatic validation) will not be able to do it after a certain date... 2014 or 2015?"

...but will be able to get some kind of Euro license privilege as per current arrangement with a Brit visiting the US? (Apologies, but I haven't been keeping up with this nonsense!)

[peterh337]

There are various papers-only (no exams or flight test) validation options around Europe, for ICAO PPLs, but I think EASA is sweeping all those away.

[pembroke]

re. D/Beancounter, the English language level has been covered many times before on these forums. However you revalidated or renewed your SEP rating recently ( the last 4 years), the SRG/1119, page 2 has provided an opportunity for the FE/GR to "award" you a level 6. In theory this is then recorded on your CAA file. If in doubt go back to the examiner who should have a copy of the form, or use the SRG/1199 to record level 6.

[distaff_beancounter]

Pembroke, you read my mind! This morning the examiner who did my recent IMC test and SEP-LPC, signed off form SRG1199 for me.

[echobeach]

I have read the caa document on EASA timetable (a few times) and I remain slightly unclear about medicals and perhaps the licences.

I could not find a statement that says you actually do nothing til you renew you JAA licence or next medical renewal is due. Such a statement would be helpful but if there, I have missed it.

It says that from the 1st July existing JAA medical holders can revalidate or renew to obtain an EASA medical. It doesn't say whether you must do this before the medical actually expires. It suggests that it automatically becomes a part EASA medical from July but I am not clear.

Any views ?

[BillieBob]

JAR-FCL 3 compliant medical certificates will be deemed to be EASA Part-MED Medical Certificates on 8th April 2012; i.e. they will become EASA Medical CertificatesForgive me, but what is unclear about that?

[echobeach]

Thanks for the reply. Nothing is unclear about that statement that refers to April 2012.
My question was about the meaning of the text that applies to the July 2012 statement re medicals. It says from the 1st July 2012 existing JAA class I and II holders can revalidate or renew to obtain an EASA medical certificate. The meaning of the English suggests that revalidation as an EASA certificate may be required even where the existing JAA medical is regarded as an EASA part-med certificate.
I suspect I am the only one that this is not obvious to, but just thought I would ask.

[peterh337]

I would have hoped that when you renew your JAA Class 1 or 2 medical then you will automatically get the EASA version, i.e. nothing actually changes and there isn't anything you need to do.

Is that correct?

AFAIK EASA is nothing nothing of great significance on the medical front. They are retaining the stupid Class 1 audiogram for the IR.

There is some fun stuff regarding renewing a medical in a different country. The foreign AME will need to be briefed by your home AME. No doubt there will be a charge for that :) But it is to discourage medical tourism.

[BillieBob]

The only significance of 1 July is that is the date that the UK has decided to bring into force the Annexes to the Aircrew Regulation (e.g. Part-FCL, Part-MED, etc.). The Regulation itself will become EU law on 8 April and there is nothing that anyone can now do to prevent that. The option to delay the implementation of the Annexes was agreed by the EC EASA Committee last year but depends on an amendment to the Aircrew Regulation being in place by 8 April - this is by no means certain and if the amendment isn't in place, the Annexes will also become law on 8 April. This is one of the reasons why there is confusion (not to say a certain degree of panic) within the CAA.

From the date that Part-MED becomes EU law (either 8 Apr or 1 Jul depending on whether the amendment is issued in time) medical examinations will be conducted in accordance with Part-MED. However, any medical certificates issued in accordance with JAR-FCL prior to the implementation date of he Annexes (whatever it is) will be deemed to have been issued in accordance with Part-MED. There is nothing anywhere that suggests that the holder of a valid medical certificate issue under JAR-FCL 3 should have to do anything other than renew it in accordance with the existing arrangements.

[peterh337]

Where is the 2 year derogation on the EASA dual papers requirement for N-reg pilots etc, and is that similarly affected?

Incidentally I have not found anything on the 15hr IR conversion route (which is quite a big deadline for some pilots) but it seems that it is just carrying on because nobody knows what else to do...

[BillieBob]

The derogation for non-commercial operation by third country licence holders is already written into the Regulation (Article 12, para 4).

The so called '15 hr IR conversion route' is unlikely to be affected in practice - the actual requirement at present is that training is at the discretion of the FTO but may not be less than 15 hours. Whilst Article 8 of the Regulation suggests that the competent authority should itself determine the credit to be awarded to each applicant, based upon a recommendation from an ATO, the decision is, in fact, likely to be delegated entirely to the ATO provided that a certain minimum training time is observed (e.g. 15 hours).

[Irv]

I was about to wander down to the Gatwick Joke Factory to trade-up my UK-PPL for a JAR-PPL.
But they may have "saved"* you some money in the long run by delaying you with the language objection. Why did you want a JAR-PPL? If you get one now, you'll pay for a new licence now and then you'll pay a re-issue fee to obtain an EASA PPL in 2017. If you wait til at least July, you'll pay once for an EASA PPL that won't expire in 2017. Is there some reason for wanting a JAR-PPL?

(* I do acknowledge the weasel-wording-ness of using the word "saved" in that context)

[distaff_beancounter]

Hi Irv
Oh good someone who knows what they are talking about and who won't tell me I should have read all the previous threads (which, of course, I should have done already!)
I have had a UK-PPL since the 1980s and never had any desire to pay the CAA for a JAR licence. I fly mostly EASA a/c so I understand that after 8.4.14 I will not be able to so unless I have an EASA licence.
BUT I also have an IMC rating which I would also like to continue using in EASA a/c - well at least until EASA abolishes it!
The CAA FCL person that I spoke to seem to indicate that there would be NO fee to issue a EASA-PPL to a JAR-PPL holder. (I find it fairly unbelievable that the CAA will do anything for FREE!)
The general opinion at my flying club is that I should apply for a JAR licence now in order to continue using the IMC rating after 8.4.14. as the CAA will not issue JAR licences after 01.07.12. There was also some cencern that an EASA licence would not be issued against a UK licence.
I have just got my SRG1199 English Level 6 signed by an examiner but not yet applied for a JAR licence.
So Irv, do I really need to throw £181 at the CAA in order to continue using my IMC rating? Your help would be much appreciated, please.

[neilgeddes]

You sum up my position too!

I can't see a reason to convert to JAR before July until the IMC migration issue is resolved.

[Prop swinger]

The latest (Feb 2012) IMC info from the CAA here (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=620&pagetype=90&pageid=13040)

[distaff_beancounter]

distaff_beancounter
You sum up my position too!
I can't see a reason to convert to JAR before July until the IMC migration issue is resolved.

Ah BUT - the Catch 22 is that the CAA says it will not be issuing any more JAR licences after 1st July 2012. And it seems that IMC ratings cannot be attached to EASA licences. So if we do need a JAR licence to preserve our IMC ratings we have to get one before 1st July 2012. :ugh:

[Maoraigh1]

I have a lapsed IMC rating. I have a current lifetime CAA pre-JAR license, with class 2 JAR medical. Am I correct in that the CAA pre-JAR license will continue, (with the attached IMC if I revalidate it), in parallel with the EASA PPL I expect to get?

[distaff_beancounter]

I have a lapsed IMC rating. I have a current lifetime CAA pre-JAR license, with class 2 JAR medical. Am I correct in that the CAA pre-JAR license will continue, (with the attached IMC if I revalidate it), in parallel with the EASA PPL I expect to get?

Yes your UK-PPL with IMC rating will continue BUT it can only be used on EASA aircraft until 8th April 2014. Thereafter you can use the UK-PPL+IMC in NON-EASA aircraft only.

So while theoretically you could use your IMC in those non-EASA aircraft most of those will be 'Permit' aircraft that are only certified for 'DAY-VFR' and cannot legally be flown IFR in IMC! :mad: :mad:

[Irv]

You sum up my position too!
I can't see a reason to convert to JAR before July until the IMC migration issue is resolved.
Ah BUT - the Catch 22 is that the CAA says it will not be issuing any more JAR licences after 1st July 2012. And it seems that IMC ratings cannot be attached to EASA licences. So if we do need a JAR licence to preserve our IMC ratings we have to get one before 1st July 2012.
I doubt it.
PERSONAL OPINION: If you have an IMC rating in a JAA PPL now, it will last (in EASA aircraft) until April 2014 OR until the JAA PPL expires, OR until you apply for any new rating in the JAA PPL from July 2012. If the JAA PPL expired in say Dec 2012, you would receive an EASA PPL, which could not have an IMC rating in it, but I think/hope you will be issued with a CAA UK PPL at the same time, with an IMC rating in it, to take you through to April 2014 in EASA aircraft. One reason I think that is because the CAA changed the ANO in 2000 to stop themselves issuing a CAA UK PPL, but their recent consultation on changing the ANO for 2012 includes letting them issue CAA UK PPLs again, and I think that is part of a solution to buy more time to sort out a permanent solution.
Still personal opinion, I think/hope that if you apply from scratch for a new IMC rating after July 2012 and before April 2014 (or until there is some final solution), I think/hope you will get it issued inside a UK PPL, either one that you have now, or in a new UK PPL they will issue with it.

[BillieBob]

As things stand right now (i.e. disregarding the sterling efforts BEagle and others to make sense of the disaster area that is EASA) distaff-beancounter's statement is correct - an IMC rating cannot be attached to an EASA licence. However, it is not necessary to retain a JAA licence to ensure that the privileges may be exercised until 2014 as the IMC rating may also be attached to a UK national licence. There will, of course, have to be a full structure of UK national licences (PPL, CPL and ATPL) to allow the operation of Annex II aircraft by pilots who cannot or will not obtain an EASA licence. National licences (including any ratings entered in them) will be valid for use on any EASA aircraft until 8 April 2014 and on EASA aircraft that are within the privileges of the LAPL until 8 April 2015 by which time, it is hoped, common sense might have prevailed.

[distaff_beancounter]

Thanks to Irv and BillieBob for making things a bit clearer!

I just want to carry on flying EASA aircaft and I presently hold just a UK-PPL+IMCrating.

I think that I now understand the situation on the IMCr - that is, after 8th April 2014 it cannot be used in EASA aircraft (although it seems likely that the CAA/EASA may move the goal posts again before 2014!)

When I phoned the CAA-FCL a few weeks ago the woman to whom I spoke implied that the CAA would not issue an EASA-PPL direct from a UK-PPL, only from a JAA-PPL. While the upgrade from UK-PPL to JAA-PPL would cost £181, the upgrade from JAA-PPL to EASA-PPL would be free of charge. Hence I assumed that I should apply for a JAR-PPL before 1st July 2012 (the latest date for issuing JAA licences) to ensure that I can continue flying EASA aircraft after 8th April 2014.

So if I do nothing now, I will save £181, but will I put myself at a disadvantage for later on? :confused:

[Prop swinger]

National licences (including any ratings entered in them) will be valid for use on any EASA aircraft until 8 April 2014 and on EASA aircraft that are within the privileges of the LAPL until 8 April 2015BillieBob,

I was under the impression that the 3 year derogation only applied if the use of the licence was within the privileges of the LAPL, not the type of aircraft. An IMC rating, or an IR, can't be used in EASA aircraft after 8th April 2014

[Irv]

So if I do nothing now, I will save £181, but will I put myself at a disadvantage for later on?
I can point you at two pages of the CAA's expected effects (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/620/e-Sept2011_v3.pdf) to read for yourself, but of course that is the CAA's current understanding. Page 6 of the PDF says that the conversion of non-JAR UK licences CAN start from July 1st 2012 (meaning to an EASA licence).
In the same document, pages 19 and 20 tell you what they expect you to do to get an EASA PPL from a UK Non-JAR PPL (last line of table, bottom of page 20 is the PPL), which is that you need 70 hours total time and 'demonstrate use of radio aids' - just like getting a JAA-PPL from a UK non-JAA PPL today.
Also if you look back at the top of that table on page 19, you will see you must have the English Proficiency, and demonstrate a knowledge of FCL and OPS, and of course elsewhere you'll find you have to have the correct medical current at the time.

This 'demonstrate FCL and OPS' may well be a link to both main documents and you signing to say you have read/understood them, but we'll see.... that was certainly how they got people to say they understood JAR-FCL, if you look at today's form (1104) to get a UK CAA PPL to UK JAA PPL today, section 7 of the form says:
"I certify that I have studied the relevant parts of the JAA Requirements (PPL(A) – see AMC FCL 1.125, PPL(H) see AMC FCL 2.125) and
have assimilated the knowledge required for the issue of a JAR-FCL PPL.
Signature ........................."
I would hope the EASA form will be similar with different references.