concerning spinning

[Da-20 monkey]

A question for an instructor or someone with experience in spinning:

Is it possible to overstress an airplane when spinning, or recovering from a spin?

They told me a spin is a 1 G maneuver. :confused:

Would be nice to know :ok: Thanks

[foxmoth]

OK465 pretty much has it, certainly Cessnas and Pipers that are cleared for spinning are VERY prone to ending up in a spiral dive instead of a spin, recovery from a spin is unlikely to over stress the aircraft unless the pull out is delayed or MUCH too slow, spiral dive recovery is much more likely to cause over stress.
Proper spin training will teach you not only spin recovery, but how to recognise if it is spinning or spiralling - it can be surprisingly difficult to tell the difference just by how it looks outside.

[djpil]

Refer SAE Paper 700222, Loading Conditions Measured During Aerobatic Maneuvers by Albert W. Hall from NASA Langley Research Center.
In this context, that work basically confirmed that the existing structural airworthiness requirements are satisfactory. i.e. an airplane must be in utility category to be approved for spinning and it will be strong enough.

There is a little bit of data in this Australian report and some-one has kindly made it available online (it was done by BASI and I have seen it on the ATSB website but they continually re-arrange the pages so this is a more reliable link).
http://www.8kcab.com/G-LOC%20Report.pdf

[Pilot DAR]

As has been said here, the "normal" spin entry, and spin itself are relatively gentle maneuvers around 1G. Certainly, there are ways to enter a spin (like a snap roll) where local forces on parts of the aircraft cold exceed the "average" G load on the aircraft. This would be a reason that some Utility category aircraft can be approved for spins, but not aerobatic maneuvers.

It can be the recovery from a spin (or other upset type maneuvers) which can get you in trouble. Extreme nose down attitudes can cause a speed buildup very quickly, and immediate pilot action is vital. I can tell you that a wingover in a Cessna 182RG can result in an alarming speed buildup.

During certification testing, I was required to spin a Cessna Grand Caravan, with an external load. I did a lot of inquiring about spinning such an aircraft before hand. The aircraft was equipped with an accelerometer. I did 14 spins at the extremes of C of G, and at differing weights. The varied C of G produced dramatically different recovery characteristics. Forward C of G consistantly resulted in an extreme dive. Several of the recoveries were very close to Vne, and at 2.8G.

You tube clip of one of the spins I did here:

C208 spin clip.m4v - YouTube

[Anonystude]

'Flicked' entries to spins can also (in some engines at the wrong RPM) overstress engine components due gyroscopic precessional loading on the bearings, I've heard.

[Pilot DAR]

gyroscopic precessional loading on the bearings

This would not concern me too much for a normally aspirated direct drive engine, and I doubt that other types of engines are commonly installed in spin approved aircraft.

My experience has been that the engine bouncing around in the engine mounts can be a greater concern, but the forces required to do this are not so much a result of a "normal" spin, but more aggressive aerobatics.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Loads during a spin are complex, poorly understood, but generally unlikely to damage the aeroplane. They should be well within the design loads.

It is however NOT a 1g manoeuvre. I've seen a couple of g in both directions, and somewhat more than 0 sideways on occasion. The loads can be quite oscillatory.


If an aeroplane is going to be broken in the spin however, other than the obvious ground imapact risk, it's almost always going to be either overspeed or overstress in the resultant dive and pull out.

That said, I have seen a propeller damaged; it was a Tucano, doing oscillatory spins, full power - so high powered turboprop, with a high mass prop, in a very oscillatory spin mode. It's a pretty rare set of conditions and I'd not get worried about it in the vast majority of GA types.

G

[Da-20 monkey]

PilotDAR:

The aircraft was equipped with an accelerometer

May I ask where they installed these accelerometers? In the wingtips?

Thanks for all the insightful replies! From all the feedback it looks like a speed buildup during the spin or recovery can be the cause of increasing load factor.

Can an airplane in a fully developed spin build up speed on it's own accord without control inputs, as a result of a forward CG or nose- down attitude? Is a spin really ,,stable'' ?

I guess there are a number of statements about spinning that are probably true ,,under most circumstances in most types of airplanes.''

Never spun before, but like to do with an instructor this summer. Thanks all:ok:

[Pilot DAR]

Yes, for most spins, it's the build up of speed during the recovery which is the danger to the aircraft structurally. The challenge is, while the plane is pointing just about straight down, allowing it to accelerate enough to not "secondary stall" it upon recovery, but not so much that you overspeed it.

This results in one of the other things we look at during certification, upset. If the pilot does something silly in the plane, and ends up pointed straight down, is there enough margin between the speed they were flyinig, and Vne to allow them room to get out of it without overspeeding.

The added challenge with the dive is that as speed builds, the desire to get out builds, and the G force being applied to get out increases, so the stall speed increases, and you're back to the secondary stall problem again.

The accelerometer installation for my spin testing was a bit more straight forward than you suggest. You want something which is really easy to read, when things are changing fast!

(That is the reading after my first spin testing, I purposefully did not reset the recording pointers in flight)

http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo252/PilotDAR/Jims%20DAR%20Testing/Spintestinginstrumentation.jpg

[dobbin1]

As others have said, it is the recovery from the dive that could overstress the aircraft. If you can control the speed to less than Va, then you should not exceed the aircraft's g limitations with a straight pull on the stick, although you might stall again. Over Va and you could break something.

You still need to be careful even at less than Va, because if you roll and pull at the same time you can cause damage. If you recover in an inverted attitude, roll to the nearest horizon immediately after stopping the spin, then pull.

[foxmoth]

Can an airplane in a fully developed spin build up speed on it's own accord without control inputs, as a result of a forward CG or nose- down attitude? Is a spin really ,,stable'' ?

This is what happens in many Cessnas, when it happens it is no longer a spin but a spiral dive - this is the main visual difference between the two, a spin will have low oscillating airspeed, a spiral dive will have the speed increasing.

[Pilot DAR]

Interestingly, having accomplished my gross weight, forward C of G spins in the Caravan, it was then time for aft C of G sipns. The recovery was profoundly different, and has me thinking that it might be the spin recovery ability which defines the rear C of G limti for the Caravan.

Unlike the steep nose down dive recovery of the forward C of G spins, the aft C of G spin recoverys were pitch control full nose down, hold and wait with opposite rudder also applied. After a half turn and some pitch bobbing, the recovery seemed to begin. Indeed, it had recovered in the required one additonal turn, but it is weird holding the controls fully forward for that long, particularly in light of the vigorous dives of the preceding flights!

Though the control applications were the same for the two extreme spins, the length of time they were applied, and what happened next were very different!

That said, yes, 100 series Cessnas generally enter a spiral dive on their own, during most spin recoveries. Make sure you can quickly recognize the difference between the two, and can apply the correct recovery technique - because they are different!

[RTN11]

My main concerns with spinning are entering the steep spiral mentioned above, or the engine stopping.

I've heard a lot of people say they've had an engine stop on them, but i've spun about 25 times now without the engine stopping. How common actually is it? Does spin direction really make any difference to this? I've spun both ways without problem.

Every time I spin I keep expecting the engine to stop, or even sputter, but so far no problems at all.

[Pilot DAR]

I have never had an engine stop or sputer during spins in the dozen or so types I have spun. If the engine did sputter, I would really wonder why. A gravity feed fuel system might be afffected by a momentary reduction in G during the push over, but only once, while spinning an aft loaded C 206 did I momentarily get to zero G. I cannot imagine in an erect spin or recovery in a GA aircraft getting to zero G long enough to make an engine sputter.

I have sputtered engines momentarily during aerobatics, and certain very specific flight test maneuvers, but it's a non event. One of the required tests in the DA-42-L360 was a -0.5 G push over for a specified number of seconds. That did produce a sputter, but they came right back with positive G. Observers on the ground reported seeing clouds of white smoke during the zero G. Turns out that the engines each threw out about a liter of oil!

[foxmoth]

My main concerns with spinning are entering the steep spiral mentioned above, or the engine stopping.

Never had a problem with the engine stopping in a spin either, though i have had a Tiger Moth engine stop in a stall turn. If you are, or intending to do, spinning/aeros, both engine restarts and spiral dive recoveries should be covered fully and you should be happy with both before doing them solo.

[foxmoth]

RTN, just looked at your profile and seen that you are an instructor! I am amazed, with the concerns you have voiced I had you down as a low houred PPL, as an instructor you should really be comfortable with spiral dive recovery and engine restarts and should be teaching both (though not actually doing restarts in the air on SE). If you are teaching spinning with the concerns you express I suggest you get some more training, certainly UH at Kemble do an excellent advanced spinning course and there are others around that will cover this as well.

[Pilot DAR]

The only time I have ever had to restart an engine in flight has been when I have deliberately shut it down, and stopped it, which does not happen casually. For a GA piston powered plane, a restart following fuel flow interruption should be a non-event, and indeed involve no pilot action in many cases.

[RTN11]

When I say it concerns me, I didn't mean I was frightened or thought I couldn't handle it, just that it could be a fright for the student.

Also thinking about inadvertent spins in a type not cleared for intentional spins, and the outcome being a very steep spiral. Recovery is simple enough, but I'd imagine it would be very easy to pull too hard and over stress something.

I am confident and trained in spinning and basic aerobatics, I've never had an engine stop but I have spoken to a few people who say it stops almost every time they spin. I'm just wondering what they are doing to cause this since I have not experienced it myself. The advice I had from my aerobatics instructor was to pick your field before you start the maneuvers just in case.

[Pilot DAR]

pick your field before you start the maneuvers just in case

That's good advice for most types of flying in single engined aircraft!

it would be very easy to pull too hard and over stress something.

Expect that it will be much more easy to over speed than over stress to the point of a safety of flight issue, for modern GA aircraft. The design tolerance for overspeed is only 10% (though you can go that 10% with no damage at all, if you're very gentle in smooth air). Where the design tolerance for over stress is 50%. You really don't want to be in either of those corners, but most spin approved aircraft are in the utility category, which allows 4.4G. That means that it will be 6.6G before you acutally make an unflyable aiircraft. Between 4.4G and 6.6G you will probably bend something expensive and scary. Most "regular" pilots would be shrieking in horror before they applied 4.4G. I have only once, and it was deliberate in a 150 Aerobat. It takes more pull than you think!

That all being said, there is no excuse for an instructor to get anywhere near those corners in a spin approved aircraft. The aircraft is designed with a margin of speed to account for a speed build up after upset. Any spin approved aircraft I have ever spun has lots of speed capacity to allow for some speed build up in the dive recovery, without creating a risk. If you're in the top half of the yellow speed range after a spin (in an approved aircraft), you've done it wrong!

a few people who say it stops almost every time they spin

Respectfully, these people either need more spin training, or should be presenting that aircraft to a mechanic before the next flight!

[foxmoth]

When I say it concerns me, I didn't mean I was frightened or thought I couldn't handle it, just that it could be a fright for the student.

Also thinking about inadvertent spins in a type not cleared for intentional spins, and the outcome being a very steep spiral. Recovery is simple enough, but I'd imagine it would be very easy to pull too hard and over stress something.

Glad to hear you are mostly concerned for the student, but really all this should have been covered in your FIC course! Yes, if a student gets that far it can be frightening for them, but the ONLY time they should be in this situation is when YOU are teaching it, if that is the case you should be putting it over in a way that it minimises their concerns! This is one reason spinning should be taught in an aircraft that spins properly, it can be done in (relatively) slow time and much calmer than in, say, a C152 where you are trying to get the words in before it degenerates into a spiral. Inadvertent spins are something you really should not be ending up with flying with students, unless maybe you are teaching aeros, in which case of course the a/c will be cleared for spinning anyway - YOU should be recognising that it is approaching and stepping in before it gets that far.

[hugh flung_dung]

I've had this happen in several different Bulldogs, usually when going to the right. Recovery is normal and the engine usually starts easily in the dive-out (if slightly delayed to get the prop to windmill) or when the tit is pressed.

(An aside: I was in a theatrical costume store earlier today (don't ask!) and the lady suggested getting some "titty tape" ... apparently it's one of those secrets that the fairer sex normally keep to themselves :E)

I once had the engine in a starter-less Jungmann stop dead at the top of a rather low stall turn over an empty but short airfield - I held the vertical until there was very little of it left but the engine only started to windmill when I pulled-out. It was all perfectly controlled but apparently the roaring and low pull-out from a silent vertical dive was rather impressive. :E

HFD
(edited to fix typos)

[hugh flung_dung]

RTN11: "Also thinking about inadvertent spins in a type not cleared for intentional spins, and the outcome being a very steep spiral. Recovery is simple enough, but I'd imagine it would be very easy to pull too hard and over stress something. "

A very common error with spiral dive recoveries is allowing the aircraft to pitch-up while rolling level; as an FI you will understand why this is a bad idea but studes seem not to. It's important to educate studes that the tendency to pitch-up (caused by being in excess of the trimmed speed) must be resisted while rolling and then allowed to happen at a controlled rate when the rolling is finished. By getting them to do this intuitively there's a fair chance that the wings will remain attached:ok:

HFD

[Big Pistons Forever]

Personally I think, in general, flight training over overemphasizes the spin entry and recovery and underemphasizes spin avoidance.

The accident sadly shows that most inadvertent spins occur at low level and no amount of spin recovery training would have made any difference as there was simply insufficent height to regain controlled flight. In Canada the requirement to demonstrate spin entry and recovery was removed from the flight test. A spin lesson is still required but I use it to show what happens if all the warning signs are missed. But the bottom line is simple. The airplane can not spin if yaw is controlled in the stall. Using the rudder to control yaw must be an automatic part of the stall recovery and occur at the same time as the nose is positively lowered and full power applied.

Similarly recognition of the slow flight regime is required in order or avoid stalling.

So if you get into an inadvertant spin then you were IMO stupid times three.

First for inadvertantly getting into the slow flight regime, second by letting the aircraft stall, and third by not controlling yaw so that the aircraft departed into a spin.

With respect to damaging aircraft in spin training I have seen two C 152's with bent horizontal stabilizer spars. Both were the result of a spin going into a spiral dive followed by an aggressive pull out at high speed.

One good trick is to not have the student leave the trim at the cruise setting when entering a spin. If the aircraft is trimmed for slow flight and it spirals out
the aircraft will try to regain the trimmed airspeed which will be much slower than the speed out the bottom of a spiral dive. This will cause a strong pitch up force on the control wheel and IMO contributed to the tail damage described.

When doing a walk around I always have an extra good look at the horizontal stab as that is what is likely to be bent if the aircraft was abused.

[Big Pistons Forever]

You know, I'll respectfully disagree on this. Both deserve appropriate emphasis.

The situation awareness, comfort and confidence derived from experience with oddball flight attitudes and dynamics are certainly worthwhile. I would, at least personally, credit the training of intentional spin entries with having been able to avoid ever entering one inadvertently.

:)

The problem is how you enter a deliberate spin bears no relation to how you are most likely to enter an inadvertent spin.

The place to learn about "odd ball flight attitudes" IMO, is a basic aerobatic course taught by an aerobatic instructor who is going to know way more about flying in the more interesting corners of the flight envelope than your average PPL instructor.

The deliberate spin is an aerobatic manoever so I tell any PPL student if he/she wants to learn about spinning I will be happy to teach them as part of my introduction to aerobatics course.

I got into aerobatics after I got my instructor rating because I was uncomfortable with unusual attitudes. By the third lesson I realized it did not matter if the aircraft was upside down or pointed straight up, or in any other possible attitude, it was still fully controllable. After that I was hooked and went on to get my Aerobatics Instructor rating and I still teach aerobatics :ok:

Personally I think every instructor should do at least an introductory aerobatics course.

[Pilot DAR]

Personally I think every instructor should do at least an introductory aerobatics course.

Absolutely!

[Da-20 monkey]

The problem is how you enter a deliberate spin bears no relation to how you are most likely to enter an inadvertent spin.

This makes me wonder if it is easier to enter a (incipient) spin in a descending turn rather than from straight and level. Is this difference noticeable?

thanks for all the replies :ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

A descending turn is adding energy into the aeroplane, so it is a little harder to achieve the stall.

G

[Genghis the Engineer]

Absolutely!

Actually, I think it should be in the CPL course. I find it rather odd that the baseline professional pilots course contains so little in the way of departures from controlled flight.

G

[Pilot DAR]

A descending turn is adding energy into the aeroplane, so it is a little harder to achieve the stall.


Should be harder to achieve, but still too common. Two friends of mine have died doing these during approach to land. One friend stopped at 200G, according to the coroner. These were 2000, and 23000 hour pilots.

Complacency....

[Big Pistons Forever]

A good exercise is to get up to more then 3000 feet and simulate a too slow, too low, too late, base to final turn. Start 10 knots below normal final speed and as you simulate overshooting the turn to the final approach use a lot of inside rudder( ie rudder in the direction of the turn) to force the nose around and simultaneously add a bit of back stick like you would if you were too low. Even a docile little spamcan will flick to the inside of the turn with very little warning. However instant opposite rudder and forward stick followed by full power will let you recover quickly. This demonstrates two important lessons.

1) The danger of unbalanced steep turns, especially at low airspeeds and

2) Aggressive prompt rudder will control the yaw and stop the developing spin before it can start.

[Cobalt]

This sounds like a good exercise - a more aggressive version of the "base-to-final turn stall" taught in Ex. 10 (2).

Most of the time the aircraft does not drop a wing in that exercise, and recovery is not a big deal - this gives the wrong impression. Perhaps it should be taught ensuring that a wing actually drops, if necessary by deliberate skidding, so the student can not only practice the correct recovery action (rudder to stop further yaw) but also "gets" that a stall in this turn is best avoided altogether...

[fwjc]

Engine stopping in a spin, plus how easy is can be to inadvertently enter a different spin mode to the intended mode.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=GB#/watch?v=bvbS-oHi9ro)

From a student's perspective, I have a slight nervousness of spins on account of attending a fatality as initial response volunteer fire crew in which an aeroplane stalled and spun in. I was at the pre-solo stage at the time and it killed my confidence.

So, when I finally got the latter parts of my PPL training, I specifically asked to cover spins. That lesson was one of the best flights I've ever had, if nothing else it showed me how good an aeroplane a C152 is. Perhaps that's why I'm so loyal to them.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if your students are willing and interested to try spins, do it. Teach it well, teach it safe, and I'm sure you'll turn out slightly better pilots as a result.

[hugh flung_dung]

FWJC: I couldn't get that link to work but I suspect it's the "interesting" spin and arrival in a Tipsy Nipper, in which case this link will work 26 Turn Flat Spin in a Tipsy Nipper - YouTube
I think most "senior" FIs would want to teach their studes how to recover from a spin, but sadly it's no-longer part of the syllabus (hopefully this won't be a cue for the usual extended discussion and gnashing of angst) so it's only those people who ask that will get. My only comment to those who want to ask is to ask an aeros FI who truly is comfortable in strange attitudes rather than someone who has only just got their ticket - it will be better for both of you.

If you enjoyed your spinning (and most people do, once they overcome the brainwashing and bar room nonsense that they've heard) then I suggest having another trip in a slightly more capable aircraft than a 152, at least a Bulldog but preferably something like a Cap10 that's easy to fly and can nicely demo spins from just about anything - and either way up. You could look at spins from sideslips, over-ruddered turns, vertical, inverted ... the skies the limit :O

HFD

(I was going to edit the "gnashing of angst", but on reflection I rather like it)

[fwjc]

High flung dung, thanks for that! It's a problem with mobile devices.

I agree with the comments regarding CPL training, and FI courses. Trouble is there are people who aren't comfortable with unusual attitudes, including instructors. They'll "survive" that part with a pass and avoid it ever after. Plus I have a feeling that, from a Commercial perspective at least, airlines are less interested in the ability to nail a spin recovery on axis, than in the ability to fit into a procedure regime which probably doesn't involve deliberate spinning.

I also agree with the suggestion for further training. So far, spun and aerobated PittsS2, Tiger Moth and Chipmunk. More S2 time to follow. For me a good way to beat the demon is to know and love the demon, but I'm lucky to have the opportunity to do this. I did the AOPA Basic Aeros course a while back. At the end of every sortie we would use a spin to lose additional height to rejoin the circuit. Yes, just a spam can, but still better than nothing.

I'm very glad to see instructors discussing this and sharing thoughts. Thanks!

[hugh flung_dung]

That's all good stuff - spread the word!

One slight caution (which may not be necessary as you've probably been well taught): if you've used the Beggs-Mueller recovery (power off, hands off, push the pedals, etc) in the Pitts then please don't assume it will work in any aircraft, there are some in which it doesn't. Always know and use the manufacturer's recommended recovery procedure, or if this slips your mind use the "certification" spin recovery procedure (power off, rudder opposite yaw, stick ...) that you will certainly have been taught.
If you haven't looked at inverted spins yet then it's worth doing so (with an appropriate FI and aircraft) at least once so that particular demon is known, and maybe, with time, loved.

HFD

[fwjc]

Yes, I note that in the back of the Beggs-Mueller book it states very clearly that it has been tried in lots of aircraft in which the method works, but that it doesn't work in everything. The classic one it doesn't work in is the humble C152!

Re inverted spinning, wilco.

[Armchairflyer]

The problem is how you enter a deliberate spin bears no relation to how you are most likely to enter an inadvertent spinIndeed :bored:

Fatal plane crash Recorded from inside the plane - YouTube