Gatwick radar antenna gone

[Deeday]

I've just realised that the radar antenna that was located about half a mile south of Gatwick airport (here (http://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=51.142074,-0.163285&spn=0.001122,0.001883&t=h&z=19)) has been taken down.
Does anyone know what it was used for and why it's been dismantled? It looked like a full primary + secondary radar system, but I used to see it in operation very occasionally. I guess it was some sort of back-up radar.
I must remember now when I give directions, as I used to refer to the roundabout next to it as "the roundabout next to the radar". :)

[eglnyt]

It was used for engineering test, the building next to it used to be the main NATS engineering base. NATS moved the engineers to Whiteley a few years ago but left the radars on a temporary lease. NATS has replaced the radars of that type over the last few years so it's probably no longer required.

[ZOOKER]

Among other things, (which hopefully we will find out about), I believe it was used to provide a subject for the NATS official photographer. A black-and-white image of this radar features extensively in the Wolff-Olins NATS 're-brand' that occurred during the 'Red Barron' era.
I always wondered which radar it was as it's mounting is unusual.
Its picture appears at least once in the corridors at nPC and also adorns the ops-room wall just behind the stationery cupboard at the end of the W2 LAG.

I think it was an HSA 23cm radar head, similar to the one at Heathrow.

[Sir George Cayley]

Sure it wasn't Eastern Europeans stealing it for the metal? :)

SGC

[Minesthechevy]

Nice one, Sir George - but beware the thought police.......

[Lon More]

Pikeys strike again.

[Spitoon]

Interesting thing about this huge, and in some people's eyes, ugly structure....and according to at least one in the know, true.....

NATS wanted the radar for tests, trials and development but expected to have to site it some way from the Engineering Centre because the planning rules looked like the Local Authority wouldn't or couldn't approve something this big, even in the light industrial area in which it's located. When they put the planning application for the mounting in it was described as a 23cm radar support structure or something similar. The council did the math quickly and said if it's only 2ft high it can't be a problem and approved it.

I guess when they asked to put the turning gear and antenna on top they either didn't want to admit the error or though 'What the heck, it can't make it any uglier!'

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Sounds like my ham radio tower. I applied for a structure to support radio antennas, which was approved. The fact that I put up an antenna at 60 ft that would contain an average house didn't seem to matter!

[ZOOKER]

Spitoon/HD, - love it. :ok:
Local councils.......bless 'em.

[2 sheds]

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7045/6949926795_9b30bdcc6e_m.jpg

[ZOOKER]

The title of this thread reminds me of a great song title, - 'Another Mind Gone" by one of Sheffield's finest, Mr. John Robert Cocker.
Seek and Ye shall enjoy! :ok:

[Deeday]

Yep, that's the one, 2 sheds. It will also live on for a while in Google Street View (http://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=51.141599,-0.16355&spn=0.000791,0.003932&t=m&z=18&layer=c&cbll=51.141647,-0.163587&panoid=5tggU4kxIjQe0fwPas2OHw&cbp=12,10.13,,0,-5), in case anyone missed it.

[chevvron]

It was there when I went to Colditz for a meeting on 9 Feb.

[ZOOKER]

Cushty. :ok:

[brianj]

I believe the land owners want the site back. Also these type of radars are being replaced and it's role reduced. Gather the SSR part may go to the RAF - rest for scrap. Rumoured to have made men in CAA SRG Aviation House sterile when turning (the radar not men).

[cleartouchandgo]

I think both the antenna and the kit are going into storage. Antenna was a bit sad apparently due corrosion (bird stuff which is a problem as it spent a lot of time stationary), but a bit of TLC and grease and into stores.

Next one down is LHR H23....some time in the summer I believe.

...now that will be a landmark that will be missed :{

CTG

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

What will replace the Heathrow 23cm?

[Simtech]

What will replace the Heathrow 23cm?
NATS got planning permission to site a new radar on former MoD land at Bovingdon (presumably on the old airfield). The locals were not happy...

[DaveReidUK]

NATS got planning permission to site a new radar on former MoD land at Bovingdon (presumably on the old airfield). The locals were not happy...

It's about half a mile south of the old airfield, on the Long Lane site where the old lattice mast used to stand, and has indeed gone down like the proverbial lead balloon with local residents:

Bovingdon residents against National Air Traffic Service plans to build a mast in Long Lane (From Watford Observer) (http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/8713836._We_will_fight__we_will_physically_protest__we_will_ not_take_this_lying_down_/)

[ZOOKER]

Radar at Bovingdon? Splendid idea.
Most of stack traffic will be in the 'overhead'. :D

Why not replace the one at EGLL? People are used to seeing radars at airports FFS. They're one of the things you've got to have. PAX derive comfort from seeing a radar head rotating, unlike the residents of leafy Bovingdon, who obviously do not.
So much for NATS 'Vision 2011 Acting Responsibly' initiative.

Aw, sh1t, sorry, it's 2012.

[DaveReidUK]

Why not replace the one at EGLL?

As I understand it, NATS and BAA were unable to reach agreement on renewal of the lease for the current Central Area radar site.

So it gets decommissioned and they build a new one from scratch.

Probably makes perfect sense to some bean-counter somewhere ...

[chevvron]

The 23 presently on T1a car park would be owned by NERL whereas the ASR10 (10cm) located near T4/Holiday Inn would be owned by HAL (although probably maintained under contract by NSL); could there be a bit of jealousy there I wonder?

[ZOOKER]

Presumably then chevvron, the 10cm is the main radar for EGLL Approach?
It would be interesting to know what radars have been sited at Heathrow over the years, and what they were used for. Shame the HSA 23cm will be going, like the old tower, it's a fairly iconic part of the airport's landscape.

[chevvron]

As all radars are used at Swanwick, I would assume both radars would be available to Heathrow Approach/director etc but they may be 'mosaiced' together.
My own experience on Farnborough LARS North meant I was able to assess both of them and I personally found the Heathrow 10cm had better coverage for the LARS task to north and northwest than the 23 cm, whereas Debden 23 cm was superior to Stansted 10cm for coverage to the north east - you could see traffic almost at ground level at Wyton on the Debden 23 but not the Stansted 10.

[MNT]

Chevron,

Both H23 & H10 owned and maintained by NATS. The reason for moving away from LHR was that BAA wanted the land that H23 stands on back to develop it and there was no alternative on offer.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Presumably then chevvron, the 10cm is the main radar for EGLL Approach?>>

The 23cm used to be the primary approach radar with others, including the 10cm, as "also available".

[Dannyboy39]

Someone been watching Only Fools and Horses?

[Radarspod]

Shame the HSA 23cm will be going, like the old tower, it's a fairly iconic part of the airport's landscape.

Absolutely, now what will the news crews use for their "LHR related story" backdrops. :E

Much rather have replaced H23 in situ.....life would be a lot easier!

RS

[DaveReidUK]

Demolishing the concrete plinth without collateral damage should be an interesting exercise.

It's a pity Fred Dibnah isn't with us any more ...

[Spitoon]

Shame the HSA 23cm will be going, like the old tower, it's a fairly iconic part of the airport's landscape.Sadly, I can remember a time before it was there...

[chevvron]

Originally it was on top of one of the BA car parks on the east side.

[Talkdownman]

Nah, different head.
The CP was the six-fifty. Lousy radar. Didn't last long.
Before the HSA23 we had 264E/W/T, 232 and that ACR6 thing...4008?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

And before that the real ACRVI and S264..

[Mantovani]

The Radar that's gone missing from the grounds of what was the then CAA's TEE (Technical Engineering Establishment) was the TSF (Training & Support Facility) for the HSA 23cm radars.

The last of these 23cm Radars is at Heathrow and because of all the cranes being used there at the moment it's not used operationally too much.

The new radar at Bovingdon will replace H23 completely and is due to come into service soon, as is the new 10cm Radar at Gatwick as soon as all the teething troubles are sorted.

[Fly26]

"Switch it off.......!!!!!!!!!!"

[MNT]

The new Gatwick Radar is in service now.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

but used by Swanwick presumably.

[SilentHandover]

HD correct, but also used as the main ATM feed to the tower.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Ahhh.. forgot that. Thanks.

[Sir George Cayley]

Now boys take off your Anoraks, brush your teeth and straight off to bed.

And no naughty dreams about wave guides :eek:

Nite nite, SGC

[Denney]

I worked at TEE from '79 to '87 when this aerial was installed as part of the Radar Replacement Programme; all on-route primary kit had to be out of the 50cm waveband by 1990. This system was preferred over the Marconi, I think. The actual aerials were constructed by ZMF, Zeppelin Metal Fabrik, at their factory at Friedrichshafen on the Bodensee (Lake Constance). Yes, the guys who built the Hindenburg! HSA stands for Hollandse Signall Aparatt, based at Flyssingen, Holland, who provided the electrics. There were aerials at Pease Pottage (Sussex), LHR, Debden (Essex), Isle of Tiree (Scotland), and I'm sure there was another one further north, or maybe Mount Gabriel or Bishop's Court (NI). Quite interesting times!

[chevvron]

Hmm, always thought Mount Gabriel was ROI not NI; are Saxby (Lincs) and Clee Hill (Salop) HSA's?

[spekesoftly]

Hmm, should that be Claxby (Lincs) ? ;)

[chevvron]

Yes my mistake!! Where the hell is Saxby then?

[Denney]

I'm sure Clee Hill wasn't. A photo shows two heads, one of which is housed in a small radome. Another photo shows the radome removed, as well as the aerial. Claxby is a head enclosed by a radome on a tower. The photo I saw makes me think an SREM5 aerial would be too big, but its difficult to judge scale with no references (like a person standing next to it!); so I'm going on door size to judge.:confused:

[eglnyt]

The HSA sites were Pease, Heathrow, Debden, Claxby, Great Dun Fell, Tiree and TEE (Gatwick).

Claxby still has the SREM5 although the radar equipment is now Raytheon not HSA.

[MNT]

As does Pease, Deben with GDF soon to be.

[Max Angle]

The reason for moving away from LHR was that BAA wanted the land that H23 stands on back to develop it and there was no alternative on offer. No room at an airport for a radar, kinda says it all really.