Is war likely with Iran? Consequences for EK?

[Airspeed Low]

Is Obama giving in to Israeli pressure over Iran? — RT (http://rt.com/usa/news/obama-iran-us-israel-709/)

Is Obama giving in to Israeli pressure over Iran?
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Published: 02 March, 2012, 21:13

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu speaks with US President Barack Obama (AFP Photo / Mandel Ngan)
TRENDS:
Israel vs Iran
TAGS: Meeting, Military, Iran, USA, Israel, War
When US President Barack Obama and Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu meet on Monday, neither heads of state will have to worry too much about plotting their war on Iran. Pentagon officials are saying that those wheels are already in motion.
After wrapping up a speech before the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) this weekend, President Obama will spend Monday meeting with PM Netanyahu, and there is little doubt that the duo will be disputing the whens, whats and hows of a joint strike on Iran. It’s been a matter of debate for months now as rumors continue to abound over an alleged nuclear warhead being developed at a secret Iranian facility. With that meeting marking perhaps the last time the two mega leaders will come together before an eventual and almost certain attack, officials from within the walls of the US Defense Department headquarters report that the blueprints for the battle are already in the works.
Speaking on condition of anonymity, Pentagon sources this week say that both Washington and Jerusalem defense officials have already begun discussions on how the countries will work in cooperation with one another should they follow through with an attack.
Pentagon officials tell Israel’s Debka news outlet that US Defense Department Secretary Leon Panetta and his Israeli counterpart, Ehud Barak, met in Washington on Thursday of this week to discuss the dynamics between the two country’s militaries. The US has been hesitant to formally endorse a strike on Iran, though has offered their support to Israel throughout the ordeal. Despite a long-lasting friendship between the two, Israel has in recent weeks condemned America over their hesitance, with Netanyahu reported to have called a top-ranking US general a “servant of Iran” last week. While the two nations have not been seeing exactly eye-to-eye as of late, Barak and Panetta are believed to be orchestrating plans that will put both nations officially in cahoots in terms of taking on Iran.
According to Pentagon sources speaking to Debka, both nations are currently considering military options that will begin in the not-so-distant future. Those plans, they report, will call for the US “providing refueling for Israeli planes and include attacking the pillars of the clerical regime,” which they add are comprised of “the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps and its elite Qods Force, regular Iranian military bases and the Ministry of Intelligence and Security.”
With Obama preparing to go before the AIPAC conference this weekend, there are already talks that the United States’ commander-in-chief is considering giving in to Israeli pressure to align against Iran with force, fearing what repercussions could come on Election Day should he walk. Obama has been hesitant to throw his weight behind any actual endorsements of war so far — and much to the chagrin of Israel — but this week’s meeting between Barak and Panetta suggest that Obama may soon crack. While the Iranian issue will no doubt be discussed during Monday’s meeting with Netanyahu, the two will now have time beforehand to mull over details divulged between the two defense heads.
Also on Thursday, White House press secretary Jay Carney told reporters, “I think we have been clear about this – that any (Israeli) military action in that region threatens greater instability in the region, because Iran borders both Afghanistan and Iraq – we have civilian personnel in Iraq, we have military personnel as well as civilians in Afghanistan,” while also insisting that America will, for the time being, “pursue the diplomatic path that we’ve taken, combined with very aggressive sanctions.”
Speaking to RT’s Alyona Minkovski that same day, Retired Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson warned that “sanctions as diplomacy won’t work.”
In an interview published Friday with The Atlantic, President Obama himself adds that he has never ruled out any war on Iran. Should those sanctions fail, the US will be ready to respond with force.
"I think that the Israeli government recognizes that, as president of the United States, I don't bluff," reveals Obama in his latest sit-down. "I also don't, as a matter of sound policy, go around advertising exactly what our intentions are. But (both) governments recognize that when the United States says it is unacceptable for Iran to have a nuclear weapon, we mean what we say."

[ironbutt57]

So what??? Been here in the "gulf" for two decades and a bit, they all been running their mouths constantly, wish they would all shut up and let life go on..war?? doubt it.....:ugh:

[ferris]

I disagree, IB. Yes, it's true, "they all run their mouths constantly" around here, so take that with a grain of salt.
However, if you look at the political machinations...is stopping the purchase of Iranian oil by Europe a 'sanction' or a 'preparation'?...BBC reported that the Isreali parliament was debating whether 'covert activities' (killing scientists and stuxnet-type things) were successfully interdicting, or whether stronger measures were required, agreeing unanimously that it was the latter.....congress debated last week whether Israel's request for 200 bunker buster weapons (gee, I wonder what they would be for?) should be granted....
Then there is the real stuff- noticed any 'activity' as you've been pottering around the gulf lately? The second carrier has been here for a few weeks now- when the third arrives, you'll have your answer.

[Airspeed Low]

gulfnews : Iran: Countries used for attack will be targets (http://gulfnews.com/news/region/iran/iran-countries-used-for-attack-will-be-targets-1.976963)

Tehran vows to strike neighbours hosting hostile forces
APPublished: 00:00 February 7, 2012

Tehran:*Iran will target any country from where an attack against it is staged, a senior Guard commander warned on Sunday, the latest Iranian threat tied to growing tensions over its nuclear programme and Western sanctions.
General Hussain Salami, deputy commander of the elite Revolutionary Guard, Iran's most powerful military force, did not elaborate. His comments appeared to be a warning to Iran's neighbours not to let their territory or airspace be used as a base for an attack.

"Any place where enemy offensive operations against the Islamic Republic of Iran originate will be the target of a reciprocal attack by the Guard's fighting units," the semi-official Fars news agency quoted Salami as saying.
The Revolutionary Guard started manoeuvres in the country's south on Saturday following naval exercises near the Strait of Hormuz, a vital oil export route, additional muscle flexing by Iran to ward off the prospect of a military strike against its nuclear facilities. Iran has threatened to close off the strait if Western sanctions limit Iranian oil exports.


The US and its Western allies charge Iran is producing atomic weapons. Iran says itsI programme is meant to produce fuel for future nuclear power reactors and medical radioisotopes needed for cancer patients.
Israel and the US have said all options are open, including military action, if Iran continues with its programme.

[Airspeed Low]

United Arab Emirates - dKosopedia (http://www.dkosopedia.com/wiki/United_Arab_Emirates)

US Military Bases

The U.S. Military has few bases in the UAE. Two of the most important are Al Dhafra air base and Jebel Ali port. Al Dhafra supports fighters and aerial refueling aircraft, in addition to occassional U-2 and Global Hawk reconnaissance flights. Meanwhile, the Navy makes about 200 calls a year at Jebel Ali port. The UAE is considered as one one of the main allies in the war against terrorism.




U.S., UAE reach deal for missile-defense system - CNN (http://articles.cnn.com/2011-12-30/us/us_uae-defense-system_1_missile-defense-system-thaad-uae?_s=PM:US)

U.S., UAE reach deal for missile-defense system
UAE

December 30, 2011|By the CNN Wire Staff

The United States and the United Arab Emirates have signed a deal for a missile-defense system in the Persian Gulf country, the Pentagon said Friday.
The $3.48 billion agreement was signed December 25, according to press secretary George Little. It was not clear why the deal was announced Friday.
The vital Strait of Hormuz separates the UAE and Iran. The Obama administration said Iran has been "saber-rattling" over its threat to block the Strait.

The pact will deliver two anti-missile batteries, 96 missiles, radars, training and logistics to the UAE, the Pentagon said.
"Acquisition of this critical defense system will bolster the UAE's air and missile-defense capability and enhance the already robust ballistic missile-defense cooperation between the United States and the UAE," the Pentagon said.
The two countries "enjoy a strong bilateral defense relationship, driven by common interests in a secure and stable Gulf region," Little said in a statement.
Raytheon Company said it will provide two radars and services through 2018 to the country. "This $582.5 million contract for the radars is part of the first sale of THAAD missile systems to an international customer," it said in a statement.

-------------------------

The questions are:

1) Should the US or Israel attack Iran as looks likely over next 3-6 months, will the UAE become a target due to assisting the US by use of ports and airbases?

2) What effect would this have on the Emirates/Etihad/Qatar bases? Would operations be suspended?

3) For those with families, what preperations if any are considered wise should the perhaps inevitable break out whilst you are down route?

[alwayzinit]

IMHO the Guards bluster is just that, bluster. Based primarily on the fact that, what would they use other than plastic boats as most if not all other assets will get walloped.

Though interstingly the other day talking to Tehran ATC the controller had real problems pronouncing his Rs and Ls..................

[fliion]

Good and valid query.

Obviously this is all conjecture and projectionist:

Yes the Israelis will hit Iran if they don't stop - which is hard to imagine them stopping.

Effect on Gulf? Pretty severe for about a year...but probably no worse than GFC of 2008.

Perception of safety traveling through area will be affected...Turkish to make a good run of it as a result.

Serious detrimental effect on real estate prices again probable.

Best case: US/coalition of the willing - air war with regime collapse in Tehran followed by Arab spring like awakening in Iran - 10 tear recovery for Iran itself, the Gulf returns quickly to normality

Worst case: 5th fleet hit in Bahrain, Minhad here and the base in Doha, rockets at cities throughout Israel, straits of Hormuz blocked....and that would destroy the tourism industry in Dubai for two years.

The interesting thing is there would be jobs for a lot of guys in East Asia as crises stay regional more so than in past due to monster global economy finding ways around obstacles.

f

[SassyPilotsWife]

If there was ever a thread on Pprune to deter anyone from taking the job with EK, this oughta do it :) Even I am getting a bit curious as to the potential of an attack in the UAE. :hmm:

All joking aside, I think we all need to at least discuss this with our better halves. Especially if you guys are on the road and even more so if you are here with children.

[The Turtle]

I recall reading last year that the top 4 defense spenders globally where: US, China, Russia, and drumroll......UAE.?! I was shocked. Missle defense, aircraft, IT, etc.

Sure if the Iranians were stupid enough to attack the UAE (#1 trading partner) some missles maybe would get through (Aegis missle cruiser parked off shore?) however I guess their top targets would be: Long range, Israel and Short range, Bahrain, Qatar. Will make a helluva mess on Qatari gas fields. They even may loft a few Saudi's way since there's no love lost between them and likely the warplanes from Israel transited Saudi's airspace....

Day one of a all-out shooting war: Complete loss of all Irainian subs, surface ships, coastal radar, C&C inland. The straits will stay open. The americans have wargamed this for 30 years.

Within days the PR machine will say the region has stabilized....flights will return to normal, EK will march on. This is NOT Iraq, there will be no land battle, no year long air campaign.

[latetonite]

If you ever fly over Iran territory, and in good weather so you can have a look at that country, you will understand why the war did not start yet.

[CatII]

Cyrus the Great - Part 1 - YouTube

[The Turtle]

Although confusion runs amok in my life I was just passing on what I recall I read!!! Thanks for your due diligence.

And I don't think anyone was questioning the heart of the people of Iran. History is rife with rulers who do not have the support of the people.

[lionoftheleft]

Well an attack can happen, will it depend on the nature of the mission. Length of the mission no normal human knows, only the supreme elite know.

Putin is now President what will his frign policy be?
Will he start war games with Syria and Iran with some foreign backing from communist Latin or South American countries?

Remember The Cold War? Well it never ended; it just evolved into something different.

I say, if you see the Iranians and Russians in The UAE running home start to worry.

Home | Foreign Affairs (http://www.foreignaffairs.com/)

[Jetaim]

Are there any shelters in Dubai? Anybody living close to the Burj Khalifa should be looking for one....

[No_Speed_Restriction]

By the way, why is Israel allowed to have Nukes and the world looks the other way? Yet when Iran is even 'suspected' of doing what Israel has already done, they are under sanctions and threat of attack

It's comments such as yours and people's naivity (yet again, such as yours) that have put the world in the position that it's in now. The constant "bending over backwards" and Europe's insistency in being politically correct (or incorrect in my opinion) when it comes to tolerating certain beliefs have shown that Israel should be commended for its stance against this oppressive regime.

[BeCareful]

By the way, why is Israel allowed to have Nukes and the world looks the other way? Yet when Iran is even 'suspected' of doing what Israel has already done, they are under sanctions and threat of attack. Granted, Iran has got to get rid of Ahmadinejad at all costs. He plays right into the hands of his enemies. If anyone person on this planet needed a PR advisor, it's that guy.


Have you seen Israel openly call for destruction of the Arab world? How about the other way around?

Another thing - value of life. Suicide bombings - weapon of choice for whom? Would you want a suicide bomber around with a nuclear weapon? Ever see Israelis run around doing suicide bombings?

I don't particularly care for Israel, but let's call spade a spade...

[Flying Spag Monster]

Ever see Atheists running around doing suicide bombings...there's the problem right there.... My money is on between April and June, clearer skies....

[captjns]

By the way, why is Israel allowed to have Nukes and the world looks the other way?

Israel, a Country with a Government that respects and values life vs Iran, one that has depraved indifference to the existence of another.

Yet when Iran is even 'suspected' of doing what Israel has already done, they are under sanctions and threat of attack.

Big difference... Israel defends its interest and right to exist while Iran, and yes, along with Syria provide the means to other to attack Israel.

By the way, Russia is no angel in this mess either by selling arms to both Iran and Syria. Would anyone like to venture a guess as to how many Russian scientist are helping the development of Iran's, (and my hands can barely type out the words), but here goes... nuclear program for medicinal purposes and for the good of mankind:yuk:?

[ironbutt57]

I don't think a "war" is likely, but yes if so it could be a bit messy here...

[captjns]

the irony is that Israel is protected by the presence of the Palestinians, making it impossible for the Iranians to Nuke them.


Are you familiar with the terms Martyr, Suffer for a Cause, Willing Victim, Sacrificial Victim, Sacrifice?

I guess in plain English... acceptable loss of life for a fanatic's cause.

[SCATANA]

@ captjns: (http://www.pprune.org/members/129678-captjns) You, Sir, are a genius :D

You do realise the whole Iran vs Israel conflict is about Palestinian rights, right ?

[no sponsor]

I was listening to the Today program on BBC radio, and there was some good commentary. Basically, the Israelis 'red line' is the implementation on more centrifuges (where the Iranians are now). The USA's red-line is the creation of nuclear weapon grade uranium. They both will not let Iran create a nuclear weapon, regardless of what the Russians or Chinese may say.

No-one can see the Iranians stopping their research, so come late summer, the Israelis will do something, with or without the US.

[Pitch Up Authority]

If Israel stays calm, cool and collected nothing will happen.

[Spirit]

If Israel stays calm, cool and collected nothing will happen.

Reminds me of Munich in 1938...when we had "Peace in Our Time"!!!

[Avitor]

Iran have stated they are not into nuclear weapons. If that is a lie, then anything should be on the cards. Israel can "stay cool, calm and collected" until a big bang sees the end of them. That will not be allowed to happen.

[Pitch Up Authority]

Iran will never start a war they can not win. They just want to have a voice in the UN. This project will keep the proud Perzian people united, whoever is in power.

[Airspeed Low]

http://israelmatzav.********.com/2012/01/turkey-intercepted-iranian-chemical.html?m=1

January 21st 2012

Four Iranian trucks that were intercepted by Turkey near the Syrian border two weeks ago were carrying raw materials for ballistic missiles and chemical weapons according to the Turkish daily Taraf. Iran denied that the trucks were carrying weapons.

While Turkish officials did not publicize the contents of the cargo in the Iranian trucks, Taraf reported that one truck was carrying for six-meter-long cylindrical tanks and heat-resistant materials, while the other three vehicles were transporting 66 tons of sodium sulfate, which can be used to make chemical weapons.

Turkey - which imposed an arms embargo on Syria last September - has dispatched a scientific team to study the contents of the freight, while the United Nations International Atomic Energy Agency has also requested a report on the trucks' materials.

The Iranian embassy in Ankara denied earlier this month that the four trucks held by Turkish customs were carrying military equipment from Iran to Syria, while a spokesman for Turkey's foreign ministry said an investigation was still in progress.

The trucks were confiscated in Turkey's southeast province of Kilis at the Oncupinar border crossing into Syria.
YNet adds:
Details on the documents obtained from the trucks suggested that the materials belonged to a leather company in Tehran and that they were being delivered to a person in Aleppo, Syria, for leather production.

Taraf has claimed that the same materials can be used in the production of chemical weapons and that the leather company is likely a cover up, recalling that thousands of people were killed by chemical weapons in Syria in 1982.
Syria already has chemical weapons, which has to make you wonder why they think they need more. Hmmm.

[fliion]

Sitty - one of the reasons they can have nukes is that they are the only democracy in the Middle East or were at least until the "The Spring" - surrounded by nutters who believe there are 70 virgins waiting for them if they die killing Jews .

The Arabs are not strong enough to form stable democracy yet - working towards it though - not holding my breath.

f.

[Jors Troolie]

These virgins.....Who chooses whether they are male or female?:suspect:

[No_Speed_Restriction]

Which is such a shame as the iranians I have met here in dubai are such cool people

Well, if they decide to stay in Iran they'll turn into very hot people.

[Devils Advocate]

http://www.pacificnet.net/~joelinux/Nuns%20with%20Guns.gif#nuns%20with%20guns

[Alconguin Crusader]

Stingidly, what flavor is that Kool-Aid you are drinking?
Iran a "somewhat" oppressive regime? They are not even allowed a free and open election much less free speech. You may not like the Jews but how can you defend Iran? They have the whole middle east scared including Saudia and the UAE.
Let's not get into the Palenstines cause. No one cares about them including the Arab states and they have brought most if not all of their problems on themselves. Ever hear of an educated Palenstinian? One that thinks of his country over himself?
And why should health care be a government requirement?

[Sal-e]

Alas, I don't think there's any more good and bad sides, who's right or wrong, friend or foe, the oppressor or the oppressed.

The enemy now is inevitable and unavoidable war itself.

[Airspeed Low]

Iran Threatens Israel With Destruction, But the Times Doesn (http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2012/02/03/iran-khamenei-threat-israel-new-york-times/)

Sittingidly, here is the answer to your query....

02.03.2012

Today’s speech by Iran’s Supreme Leader, the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, about the sanctions on his country and its determination to persist in its quest for nuclear capability was a significant news event. Khamenei served notice on the United States that he would not be bluffed into giving up his nuclear plans. Though he conceded*the economic pressure on his country has hurt, he said Iran is undaunted and would retaliate against the United States should its nuclear facilities come under attack. All this was reported in newspapers around the world, including the New York Times, which posted a story on the speech Friday morning.

However, there was something missing from the Times report of Khamenei’s speech that was reported elsewhere. Other accounts noted that in addition to threatening the United States, Khamenei said this: “The Zionist regime is a cancerous tumor and it will be removed.”



------------------
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmoud_Ahmadinejad_and_Israel)

"Wiped off the map" controversy

On October 26, 2005, IRIB News, an English-language subsidiary of the state-controlled Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB), filed a story on Ahmadinejad's speech to the "World Without Zionism" conference in Asia, entitled: Ahmadinejad: Israel must be wiped off the map.[1] The story was picked up by Western news agencies and quickly made headlines around the world. On October 30, The New York Times published a full transcript of the speech in which Ahmadinejad was quoted as saying:
Our dear Imam (referring to Ayatollah Khomeini) said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. Is it possible to create a new front in the heart of an old front. This would be a defeat and whoever accepts the legitimacy of this regime has in fact, signed the defeat of the Islamic world. Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. I have no doubt that the new wave that has started in Palestine, and we witness it in the Islamic world too, will eliminate this disgraceful stain from the Islamic world.[2]

Ahmadinejad said that the issue with Palestine would be over "the day that all refugees return to their homes [and] a democratic government elected by the people comes to power",[3] and denounced attempts to normalise relations with Israel, condemning all Muslim leaders who accept the existence of Israel as "acknowledging a surrender and defeat of the Islamic world."
The speech indicated that he considered Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip to be a trick, designed to gain acknowledgment from Islamic states. In a rally held two days later, Ahmadinejad declared that his words reflected the views of the Iranian people, adding that Western world was free to comment, but its reactions were invalid.[4]

[captjns]

Iran will never start a war they can not win. They just want to have a voice in the UN. This project will keep the proud Perzian people united, whoever is in power.

“The Zionist regime is a cancerous tumor and it will be removed.”

Sooooo ya think this is the voice you want ehoing in the UN?

[Dani]

What will happen when (not if) the Iranians have their nuclear weapons? Will they attack Israel?

Do you really think so? Starting a nuclear attack would mean the immediate and complete retaliation and thus destruction of most Iranian cities, military installations and industrial centres. I don't know if you are aware that Israel has nuclear armed submarines, so Iran cannot destroy Israel's nuclear capability by a simple attack with long rang missiles.

There is a simple law in modern strategy, it says that not one country with nuclear weapons has ever attacked another (with nuclear weapons). This is not a lucky circumstance (although luck belonged to it during the cold war), this is pure logic. Since nuclear attacks lead to the nuclear holocaust of all parties involved (plus others).

So, the question runs down on a simple one: Are the religious and political leaders crazy enough to accept their own death to erase Israel? I think not. They are no suicide bombers. They just have a few of them.

So there is no danger to be expected from Iran.

The bigger question is what danger erupts from a preemptive strike from Israel and/or USA to try to cut down the nuclear capabilies of Iran. Well, this means (conventional) war for sure. Iran would be forced to retaliate.

So, everyone comes to the clear conclusion, that doing nothing is the best way to go forward.

Dani

[Pitch Up Authority]

If war breaks out in the Middle East, all countries that have neglected to support the legitimate demands of the Palestinian people will pay a price.

The only thing Iran is doing, is verbal provocation, they will never attack first. Iran is just waiting for Israel to loose their nerves.

The best thing that can happen to the region is that Iran and Iraq are united under one flag or become close allies supported by Russia and China.

The lobbyists of the weapon industry control the Middle East foreign policy of the USA. They were the reason for the war between Iraq and Iran.

Anyone who thinks this is erased from the memory of the ordinary Iraqi or Iranian is neglecting a key factor in understanding the emotions that are present in their minds.

The main reason for 9/11 is the hypocritical attitude of the USA with regard to Saudi Arabia. Once the USA is less dependent on Middle Eastern oil everything will change. Obama has been very clear on that.

Given this context it is understandable, that any ally of the USA who behaves in a unreasonable way with regard to the faith of the Palestinians is treated in a similar way.

Another example is CNN. Altough CNN tried to focus on modern slavery, not a single word is mentioned on Middle Eastern practises in this respect.

As far as EK and the UAE is concerned, they are just (ab)using the USA as a lobbyist for their global expansion. More planes & weapons = more USA jobs = more new destinations = more UAE locals that feel as strangers in their own country.

This whole mess was started by the British political elite, everything they stick their noses in, changes into ****.

[falcon10]

Another example is CNN. Altough CNN tried to focus on modern slavery, not a single word is mentioned on Middle Eastern practises in this respect.

The reason you dont see this issue mentioned in the UAE and because the CNN you see in the UAE is broadcast from Abu Dhabi! Abu Dhabi CNN is nothing like the CNN in the USA or CNN International that is broadcast in the rest of the world from the same building in Atlanta!

[crewmeal]

This whole mess was started by the British political elite, everything they stick their noses in, changes into ****.

I couldn't agree more. Blair and his cronies have a lot to answer for. Now we have a PM who has no backbone or guts and has done nothing to promote peace in the region. Blair just sticks his nose in ME affairs and swans around acting in the role of an envoy.

If anything started by either side all this govt will do is put up the price of fuel.

[SCATANA]

Thank you Sitty, good to know I'm not the only one here seeing the bigger picture.


To all who think Ahmedinejad wants to distroy Israel, watch both till end:


Apologize to the World Mr. Wallace and Return that Emmy - YouTube



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mScWWtRfGQ

Now go back to watching Cable News Nonsense.

[Sciolistes]

My friend, its not a 'JEW THING' as you pretend.
It certainly isn't. One thing the MSM doesn't tell you is that Jewish and Catholicism are protected religions in Iran. The Jews are represented in Iran with a seat in the parliament. Whatever the Iranians say it has nothing to do with the Jewish religion. They may however have a dim view of Zionists, as many rational people do.

All is not quite (or anywhere near) as it seems and the public has been grossly misinformed.

[doubletap]

Appears to be some elements of 'stockholm syndrome' in some of these replies. It's not the Iranians per se, but rather who will be the recipients of the enriched uranium to do the deed for them, & THAT is the main concern of the Israelis/USA et al.

[gorter]

Appears to be some elements of 'stockholm syndrome' in some of these replies. It's not the Iranians per se, but rather who will be the recipients of the enriched uranium to do the deed for them, & THAT is the main concern of the Israelis/USA et al.

If that were really the case then Israel and the USA would have attacked a great number of former soviet states a long time ago.

[Dani]

and Pakistan is a far bigger problem than Iran.

[captjns]

and Pakistan is a far bigger problem than Iran.

As the Pakistan has nuclear capabilities and as they appear to sympathize with terrorists, your statement is correct.

However if Iran is allowed to acquire those same capabilities... it's a coin flip.

[RoyHudd]

Israel were attacked by Iraq (Scud missile bombardment) and did not react. That is an example of why this nation is to be trusted. I doubt if the UK, the USA, Germany or France would have allowed this.
Now if Israel is likely to be attacked with nuclear weaponry, they have every right to try and prevent such a thing. Again, this right is accepted by all nations, who would do the same under such circumstances.
This Palestinian story is a red herring. The Iranian government and religious leaders care not a jot about Palestinians. The Palestinians would largely be murdered along with Israelis (Jews, Christians and Arabic people) in any nuclear attack.

The blindness expressed by the likes of Dani and sitting idly is terrifying. Rational people expressing views like those of Neville Chamberlain, who trusted Hitler in the face of overwhelming evidence.

People here seem to be mixing up anti-Israeli attitudes with common sense. It has happened before.

[gorter]

Israel didn't react when attacked by scuds because;

a) they were told not to and

b) they knew full well that if they did all support by the Arab nations for the first gulf war would have evaporated in seconds leaving the coalition nowhere to base the gulf war and leaving them up the proverbial creek.

[crewmeal]

Israel didn't react when attacked by scuds because;

a) they were told not to and

b) they knew full well that if they did all support by the Arab nations for the first gulf war would have evaporated in seconds leaving the coalition nowhere to base the gulf war and leaving them up the proverbial creek.

c) they were considered a bit of a joke at the time because they never hit the targets they were intended for.

[Mr.Bloggs]

It seems that the Iranian nuclear threat is in fact a threat to your job, sittingidly. Or so you write. Bit self-centred. I for one don't care much about your job, nor that of your other colleagues in the Middle East, including Israel. I do care about a nuclear conflagration that could envelope us all. To read your anti-Israel bleating frankly makes me sick to the back teeth. Get a life, and get off your soap box. The issues facing us all are far greater than your obvious dislike for Israel.

[FlyEmirates777]

What could Iran possibly achieve with nuclear weapons other than mutually assured destruction...I've flown over the eastern Med and seen all the way from Turkey to Haifa with all of Cyprus, Lebanon and the Syrian coast in between...it's a very small piece of real estate everyone is all excited about. Any Iranian strike would wipe out all the people the Iranians were allegedly trying to help, the Palestinians, along with some nasty fallout on all the neighbors, not to mention the ca 1.5 million Arab-Israelis. Who could possibly believe this is a realistic scenario?

[wadefac]

WOW.............is this what be a pilot is all about..............f#$%k%^g politics.....glad i'm just about done..........pathetic................but then wa-de-fac :mad:

[captjns]

Not defending actions against Gaza, enlighten us about Amnesty International's position on rockets being fired from Gaza into Israel, unprovoked? Should Israel sit idle?

Oh by the way... what was Amnesty International's position when Palestinians bombed Israeli schools, buses, night clubs taking innocent lives taking the lives of innocent women, men, boys and girls?

Last checked, Israel does not attack. they retaliate.

[SCATANA]

@ Captjns: :D

"Last checked, Israel does not attack. they retaliate."



This was at a time when Saddam was a major ally of America, EU and Arabs:

Operation Opera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera)



USA, another ally:

USS Liberty incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident)



Another war started by Israel which made its land-area tripple in size. It still occupies most of these lands against UN resolutions:

Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War)

[SCATANA]

Fair enough, lets get back to the main subject.

I agree with IronButt57 that a USA war vs Iran is unlikely. But if it does happen it will be messy and long.

Iran knows that super powers like a quick and decisive war. They can't handle the long term bleeding as the war drags on (USA vs vietnam/iraq/afghanistan, Soviet vs afghanistan, Israel vs lebanon 2006, the 8-year Iran vs Iraq war) specially in these economic times.

If I had to guess, I'd say an Iran vs USA war would be similar to Israel vs Hezbollah 2006 but on a much bigger and longer scale and with global consiquences (assuming no other country gets involved).

But if other countries do get involved, and they will, then basically it'll be WW3.


Worst case scenario (again i'm only guessing):

In the Blue corner: North America, EU, Israel, Turkey, Australia, some former soviet states, some Arabian countries, some GCC countries.

In the Red corner: Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Russia, China, South America, Afghanistan, Pakistan, yemen (yes you read the last 3 countries correct).

In the neutral/unknown corner: India, oman, kuwait, Africa, Far East (japan, n/s.korea, malaysia, indonesia...etc).


Possible outcome: 2/3 of population will die during or after the war due hunger/cold/disease/radiation.

Basicaly we're all fooked.

Needles to say all airlines/businesses/governments in the gulf will be crippled for a long period, some wont even survive. cough*gf*cough

[Sciolistes]

Are the Gulf states really going to let the US cripple their economies without suitable measures (hard cash, investment, resources and favours) being put in place before hand? I don't think so. The recent softening by Obama is probably due to the realisation of how much this war would cost. Israel starting the conflict seemingly against US wishes would be a bit of a boon for the US administration. Keep Israel in their rightful place as the bad guys whilst also blowing up the worrying nuclear sites and making any action against the Straights by the Iranians unjustifiable.

[captjns]

Many do not remember the sigh of relief shared bymany Gulf States when Israel took out the Osiraq Nuclear Plant in June 7 1981 with the success of Operation Opera.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Osirak.html (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Osirak.html)

Actual gratitude expressed by many States after the firstGulf War to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH3u79h5G7A

And Operation Orchid in 2007. OperationOrchard was an Israeli airstrike on a nuclearreactorin the Deir ez-Zor region of Syria carried out on September 6, 2007. Technology from North Korea and Air DefenseRadar courtesy of Russia. I guess Russiawas truly RED in the face in back paddling their failed systems.

http://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/826/the-attack-on-syrias-al-kibar-nuclear-facility (http://www.jewishpolicycenter.org/826/the-attack-on-syrias-al-kibar-nuclear-facility)

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/washington/14weapons.html?pagewanted=all (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/14/washington/14weapons.html?pagewanted=all)

History may repeat itself, and once again, if Israel should
takes the initiated to protect itself, the Gulf States will thank Israel. The danger of Iran's intention is not a perception, but real and apparent.

[Sciolistes]

Just looked Up Op. Opera in Wikipedi. If true this is an example of how twisted international politics is:
Parsi, in the book Treacherous Alliance: The Secret Dealings of Israel, Iran, and the United States, writes that a senior Israeli official met with a representative of the Khomeini regime in France one month prior to the Israeli attack.[48] The source of the assertion is Ari Ben-Menashe, a former Israeli government employee. At the alleged meeting, the Iranians explained details of their 1980 attack on the site, and agreed to let Israeli planes land at an Iranian airfield in Tabriz in the case of an emergency

[captjns]

Notice the route of flight to Iraq?

[maybepilot]

We live in a time when we are witnessing change in the arab world from Turkey to Egypt to Libya to Tunisia to Syria and I think we can clearly state that what is coming out of the so called arab spring isn't democracy but teocracy, islamic teocracy that is.
Iran is a precursor with its oppressive political system based on religious law and rules which it publicly exports to Lebanon, Syria and to Hamas.
Western Europe is being flooded with immigrants from the arab world and many cities are seeing the birth of gettos and growing social and racial unrest often based on the immigrants' hatered towards the locals and their obsessive religious demands.
There are several immigrant groups in western Europe officially asking for the implementation of sharia law in their neighborhoods and entire areas where the locals are becoming a minority and where it's becoming increasingly dangerous to live a western style of life.
Of course our political correctness and our fear of offending "a minority" is keeping most of the media from openly commenting on such dramatic social issues and it's much easier to cover a "coran burning" story for weeks than showing how the Parisian muslims occupy an entire neighborhood for their prayers regardless of our secular laws.
The war is going to be on a much wider scale than just Iran...

Islam in Paris. Friday prayer - YouTube

[Loopy]

Why don't Muslims leave our countries?? - YouTube

[captjns]

I've yet to see democracy achieved as a result of the "ArabSpring" in any of the countries where liberation has taken place. Where'sthe improvement? Citizens are still being slaughtered in these so-called liberated countries.

That said.. where's the so-called freedom? Former Tyrannical despots of Egypt, and Libya havebeen replaced by regimes and war lords carving up the real estate. Stand by for civil war folks.

Yemen may be the nextto enjoy their liberation too.

El Presidente de Syria may maintain his standprovided Iran and Russia continue to assistance… from the side lines:rolleyes:? After all where else would Hamas get their goodies from?

These revolutions remind meof the 1971 Woody Allen Movie… “Bananas”:D.

Woody Allen isdumped by his activist girlfriend, he travels to a fictitious tiny LatinAmerican nation, San Marcos, and becomes involved in its latest rebellion.

One despot who considered hispeople as ignorant peasants is overthrown by a revolutionary to establish a democracyand freedom for the people of San Marcos. But, when the revolutionary gets into power, he takes the same positionas his predecessor with the thoughts that the people of San Marcos are tooignorant to vote a new leader under a democratic system. He too is wacked and Woody Allen steps in asthe successor President.

[SassyPilotsWife]

For all of you who constantly want to bitch and blame the US for getting in the " business" of other countries.. I've got a question for you...

WHAT IF WE DIDN'T ?

You can all bash the US, yet everyone comes to us for aid, everyone comes to us for military support. Ohh everyone loves the Americans when we're sending billions of dollars in disaster aid, military aid etc when countries are slaughtering their own, dying from famine and natural disasters. But then they run their mouths blaming the worlds problems on us.

I'm an American and I totally support us pulling out of every damn **** country we are in, lets keep our money in our own country and take care of our own! Lets protect OUR OWN borders rather than others. Lets feed our own famine, lets make sure every child in America, regardless of their parent's choices do not go to bed hungry and homeless. and dammit.. lets take care of our OWN veterans rather than spending billions training others who a few of them retaliate and kill the same soldier who trained them. I wish every single one of you who want to keep stating " the Americans or the US" would end that statement with government. Because I assure you, 99% of America would rather see our own country and people be taken care of rather than everyone else.

But.. if we did that....

What would happen to the rest of the world ???

[SCATANA]

Nothing......Life goes on, as it did for tens of thousands of years before America ever existed.

[MrMachfivepointfive]

WHAT IF WE DIDN'T ?
History teaches us that whereever and whenever the US decided to intervene the resulting mess was bigger than at the start. From United Fruit Company over Vietnam to Iraq. Please also remember that the US created AQ and OBL to piss off the Ruskies.There is a notable exception to that rule: Post WW2 Germany and Japan.

[SCATANA]

@ Mach5.5

It's because the american war vs germany & japan was legit and not based on lies or corporate/self interests.

[SCATANA]

Learned more watching this than I did in 52 years :ok:

Professor Norman Finkelstein, Jewish Academic and expert on the Israel/Arab conflict:


Norman Finkelstein - Excellent talk on the Israel-Palestinian conflict - YouTube

[Sciolistes]

Please also remember that the US created AQ and OBL to piss off the Ruskies.
It is alo worth pointing out tht te US gave Iran nuclear technology too! Stop digging boys :ugh:

[maybepilot]

Good propaganda film loopy, same for you SCATANA.

Here is some reality however, like this one in peaceful and tolerant Sweden:
Muslim Immigration in Sweden - YouTube

Or this one in socially advanced Norway:
Norwegian Muslims want beheading for failing to observe the fast inIslamic schools - YouTube

Or Belgium:
(Belgium)- Muslims and sharia law - YouTube

And the list could continue much longer but I don't think this is the place.
The muslim social bomb in western Europe will explode sooner or later, there is huge resentment and anger amongst Europeans for what is happening to their cities and communities and there is no USA nor Palestine involved in this but pure and plain muslim intolerance and unwillingness to integrate but the contrary: a well planned (sub)cultural invasion.

The war has already started.

[break_break]

WHAT IF WE DIDN'T ?

And I believe someone replied..

Nothing......Life goes on, as it did for tens of thousands of years before America ever existed.

Of which I only agreed to partially, since the REAL consequence will be the biggest ever recession the Great US Of A will ever experience.

SassyPilotsWife

Do you have any inkling of the reliance of US economy on its military activities? EVERY SINGLE level headed American would wish to head home, but ALL EDUCATED Americans knew they can't. This is the way it's gonna be, for many years to come.

On the same token, I sure hope the war is NOT imminent.

[gorter]

It's been said, but easy enough to repeat. The US economy is based on disaster capitalism. If the US 'brought the boys n gals home' the US economy would collapse.

[blusky75]

Four scenarios on Iran nuclear program - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/08/opinion/ghitis-iran-conflict/index.html?hpt=imi_t3)

[RunSick]

SI
Great post! :D

[Guy D'ageradar]

Seconded :D

[captainsmiffy]

more than a few home truths in there, I feel...! Well written and, for once, with the emotion taken out!

[maybepilot]

sittingidly:

Did you know that 1/3 of all US Aid goes to Israel and Egypt. I didn't until now. Why is it that the case?

the fact sheet you presented , from a clearly pro-palestinian/arab cause link, fails to mention the TOTAL aid that countries receive since it only talks about US foreign aid spending.
If you sum the total aid the Palestinans receive globally you will find out that each palestinian gets about 5 times more what each European received with the Marshall plan after WWII in today's exchange rate, to be more specific they receive from the world a little more than what the US gives Israel in military aid.
Where does all that money go?
In the case of Israel it's quite obvious: into a formidable defence force.
In the case of the Palestinians it isn't that clear since they keep claiming a humanitarian crises.

There are hundreds of US Military bases around the world and the majority of their locations follow the same pathway that oil flows.

While nobody disputes the fact that oil plays a vital role in the economics and lifestyle of the western countries the above piece of info is misleading and far from being the truth: the major overseas US military installations are in Europe (no oil there) and in the Pacific Far East (no oil there either).

-on the other hand, it must be acknowledged that the US is still the largest contributor of Foreign Aid but much of that is Military Aid


Your acknowledgment of the US being the largest contributor of global aid is correct , what isn't true is that much if it is military aid in fact out of 45bln total only 11bln is military.

But it does explain many other things, such as why the majority don't even support universal health care for their fellow citizens. Or why many people decree that they should '' just go bomb the place and leave a big glass crater in the ground''. Or even why Americans say ''sir'' all the time on the radios


The above generalization says it all about where you stand.....try to google up the amount of scientific discoveries made by the Americans in the last 150 years compared to the rest of the "much more civilized" world and report back.

[fliion]

Maybepilot,

Excellent rebuttal to the Sittys highly subjective post.

Everything In life is a trade -off. There are essentially three mega nuclear powers - China, Russia & the US.( the EU is a collection - deeply connected to the US)

Now go and ask yourselves: these are my three choices, which system will give my kids the greatest opportunity...Should one become dominant.

Simply put the US is a huge counterweight to nations that get out of line - .

What's funny is the US has gone to war many times in my lifetime to protect Muslims when the Muslims themselves had neither the balls or strength to take care of their own. Cue the Afghan Muslims in the 80's, Kuawaiti & Saudi Muslims in 1991', the Bosnian Muslims 1995, the Kosovar Muslims in 1998', the Libyan Muslims in 2011.., not to mention the gargantuan humanitarian aid to the Indonesian Muslims during tsunami, the famine of the Somali Muslims during Blackhawkdown etc.

Boy I tell you ... All that free oil we've got from the above nations was worth the body count

Of course that's the inconvenient truth....and who is paying for it...the American taxpayer ...next time you guys take care of it on your own.....after all you have it figured out. Now go check your iPhones and date check me, wearing your Raybans & your American Eagle shirts while your sitting in Starbucks before you head off to grab a cheeseburger on the way to the movies...

nobody in the US queuing at this regions embassies for a better life...care to checkout the line at the US embassies around the world ....

I want to puke....Pathetic

f

[captjns]

130 Rockets fired into Israel during the preceding 24 hours... unprovoked... Why? Where did the money for these rockets come from?


Very good show this morning on MSNBC hosted by Chris Matthews.

[fliion]

Sitty

Is this the same Australia that just invited the US to base 2,500 US Marines in the North as a counterweight to Chinese military expansion...?

Don't worry mate..your country is not alone in inviting the US to base servicemen in their country as a counterweight ...

Here are just a few that roll off the keyboard:

Germany, UK, Spain, Turkey, Qatar, UAE, Saudi, Japan, Korea, Italy, Kuwait, Uganda, Poland, Kosovo, Pakistan, some other 'Stans, ?...plenty more .....not to mention the thousands that roam the oceans ready to airlift in humanitarian supplies to those in need...on the back of our tax dollars...don't resent it...to the contrary very proud and happy to pay our way...

May your kids sleep well at night my friend....

f

[Trader]

Sittingly:

1. Regarding US education vs India. The worlds top schools are in the US and draw the worlds best students. Good article in The Economist a few years ago quoted senior Indian Buisiness and Education leaders saying that 80% of Indian grads are unfit to work in India never mind the rest of the world.

Sorry, but given the choice I choose a Western trained doctor from a good school over one from India or Asia!!!!

2. Oil - who benefited???? I tell you--we ALL have. The consumer in EVERY part of the world has benefited through cheaper oil. Oil affects EVERY SINGLE commodity. The most serious being food prices and, during the last jump in oil prices, we seen riots in many countries over food prices.

I'm not a fan of the corporate world at all (especially the financial thieves who screwed the world economy) but it is quite clear that moderately priced oil is important to the world economy.

3. US counterweight to the world - the Cold War was actually a nice stable time. 2 sides, each respectful and fearful of the other, each with a lot to lose. Result - is a nice status quo system where the 'enemy', regardless of which side you are on, is well known and predictable.

Today that is gone, with more parts of the world unstable or threatening to become unstable.

While I may not like US foreign policy, or the wars they have entered/started, I am happy that they are there, that they are willing to flex their muscle and that they have the power to do it.

I don't believe that the Middle East, India, China or Asia have anyone elses best interest in mind. Niether do the Western countries and, while I don't believe that economics or politics are zero sum games (meaning that for one to benefit the other must lose) when it comes to my son's future if I have to choose his future versus 'the other side'- I choose his!!!

The US is the big kid on the block and so are an easy target. But the dictatorships and pretend democracies of the ME, India, Russia and China are far worse. Yes, the US has a few hundred 'prisoners' in Guantanemo and yes they tortured some of them. Pretty pathetic. But not nearly as pathetic as what goes on in the four areas I mentioned above. NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!

I'm not an American and, as I stated, don't like some aspects of their foreign policy and absolutely despise their system with regards to the financial system which has, literally, STOLE billions of dollars out of the average guys pockets and left things in a shambles. The political system and financial system are corrupted and we should fight like hell to rectify it.

But, in the end, I still choose THAT system and THAT country over what we see in the ME, India and China.

[maybepilot]

Trader,

very good post, fully agree with you.:ok::ok:

Sittingidly,

if the rest of the world is contributing higher percentages to countries other than Israel and Egypt, that supports my argument!

The rest of the western world (USA included) pours into the pockets of the many ME and Asian countries amounts of money that Israel could only dream of and bear in mind that Israel only gets aid from the USA to maintain what is called its QME (qualitative military edge) in order to deter numerically superior adversaries.
Yes because Israel is literally surrounded by adversaries who would not hesitate a minute to wipe all of its citizens off the face of this planet.
On the other hand Israel's QME has never been used to wipe anybody off but always in retaliation to indiscriminate attacks on its territory (yes because like it or not it is a country recognized by the UN) and on its civilians.

what does the Marshall plan have to do with 2012? Then you stated that Israel receives an amount of Aid from the US, that the Palestinians only receive from the rest of the world. Which once again supports my argument.

Israel only receives aid from the USA and only for its own QME (about 2.5bln$/year) , the Palestinians have been receiving a slightly bigger amount from the rest of the world (about 2.6bln/year) but only in the form of economic help and development (for their military development they receive help from well known countries but there are no fact sheets available).
The amount per person that the Palestinians receive a year is about 5 times higher what the Europeans received from the Marshall plan after WWII but while the Europeans managed to rebuild an entire continent and become wealthy again the Palestinians only manage to cry for more help while educating their children to racial hatred, martyrdom and religious fanaticism.
Israel is ranked 4th in the world for scientific activity (measured measured by the number of scientific publications per million citizens) and 17th for HDI (human development index as published by the UN) while the first ME country in that ranking is the UAE coming 30th (however almost 90% of its population are expats).
This clearly shows that the money spent for Israel is money pretty well spent, can't really say that for the mega billions spent for the many muslim sharia run countries around the globe.

humanitarian crisis... caused by the very nation that is receiving your support in military aid? As far as the P’s ''claiming a crisis'', if you call it a claim and not a reality, then you don't understand what is actually happening on the ground.

The crisis which is all but humanitarian is caused only and primarily by the Palestinians themselves ,by the friends they chose to have on the international scene and by the wide spread ignorance and lack of education.
And believe me, I know VERY WELL what is happening on the ground......

[AH727]

This thread have elements of brownshirt propaganda.

These posted vidoeclips regarding muslims in Europe are typical propaganda that made the brownshirts get elected into our parlaments in Europe.

In the 30´s there was a economic crisis, rampant unemployment and the brownshirts were elected in to parlament....

If this continues we will have the Star of David replaced by the Crescent on the garments of the above mentioned.


Please continue the discussion about the implications of a conflict in the Gulf with regards to EK and the other carriers.

[Fromagio]

Some good posts from Sittingidly. :D
I fully agree with you.

I just thought that I'd throw this in for a laugh...

LiveLeak.com - Mississippi Rednecks that vote republican

[captjns]

Don't quite understand your statement If this continues we will have the Star of David replaced by the Crescent on the garments of the above mentioned. AH727

Please clarify.

[maybepilot]

AH727,

it's a free world (for the time being) so , with your permission, I would like to post and talk about the issues that I deem to be useful to be debated.
Even if your politically correct ears don't like to listen nor watch I am afraid you will have to accept not only the muslims' view but mine as well.
It's the very core of our democracies and since you seem to be a fellow European citizen of mine and we are politically/socially and economically linked I also feel I still have the right to express my views without being labeled as a xenophobe or a fascist (which of course I am not) just because lately it's in fashion to silence anyone who raises his head above western politically correctness by simply calling him a neo-nazi.
You seem to be living in Sweden, so here are some more videos you surely won't like and possibly label as lies or neo-azi/pro-zionist (you can throw that into any subject nowadays) propaganda but since we are all pilots and spend lots of time overnighting I am sure many of us will have the chance to see for themselves next time they check in in a hotel in ARN/GOT/MMX...
By the way this is just food for thought for those politically correct and by no means I am trying to label the whole of Sweden nor every muslim in any way but I am convinced this is a growing issue that will have to be faced because it bears lots of socially dangerous potential.
And denying it is the biggest danger, just like with what goes on in the so called arab spring.

Sweden Begins To Realise What A Muslim Infestation Means - YouTube

Islam in Sweden - Honor Killing - YouTube

Muslim Anti-Semitism In Sweden - Muslims Hate Everyone! - YouTube

Al-Jazeera goes to Sweden and interviews Lars Vilks about his "Mohammed-dog" cartoon - YouTube

Swedish imam preaches hatred miracula Rei Unius - YouTube

[THR MCT]

Thanks AH727
Bulls eye
The Zionist are the problem to all the conflicts in the planet
They are bleeding the Us and the poor American tax payer are just watching and bracing for the next economical recession .
In the meantime they are getting military aid to kill any one who is resisting their project look how they manage to manipulate the American public opinion by taking control of all the media, Tv , newspaper , wall street, banks , and the judicial system in the USA .
Where the average American is left like an idiot completely ignorant not informed having no clue what is going on in the rest of the world.

After having manipulated and infiltrated at every level all the political arena in America and the contribution of the AIPAC they manage to trigger all this war by proxy and lies while sitting in occupied land killing children .
In the name of friendship with USA how selly is that:ugh:

[maybepilot]

AH727,

the above poster is the living proof of what your way of thinking will bring.
Or actually bring back, it's only 70 years ago afterall......

[SCATANA]

@sitty:

"People have to stand up for what is right, even if it means being pepper-sprayed as an 80 year old grandmother." :ok::ok:


@ maybepilot:

So what happened 70 years ago justifies whats happening today ?

Europeans kill jews and Palestinians had to pay the price ?

Where's the justice in that ?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNQSV3BBtZ4

[falconeasydriver]

Argument, and counter argument, the circle is never ending, both in terms of the rhetoric and the violence, and yet none of the key points relating to the issues of the Middle East have even been discussed. The simple reason is because its actually far more complicated and has far more scope than we can hope to discuss.
Certainly if you do a little bit of digging, you will find the many of the neighbouring states to Israel are complicit in the confinement/arming/goading of the Palestinians, and yet in public they declare in one loud voice they support a two state solution.
The Palestinians for their part have as has been stated "never fail to miss an opportunity", Arafat had his chance but then why have peace when conflict is sooo much more profitable? Hamas for their part think exactly the same way, all they need to do is continue the "resistance" to recieve a good chunk of support from Damascus, Tehran and North London, all the while poisoning the minds of 4 year old "maytrs" with suicide dolls and anti-semitic kids TV shows. Its good business with a ready supply of young maleable talent for the future.
Israel for the most part is more sanguine, if not a bit divided, but then again for the IDF and Elbit, its good business, export orders flow in for new weapon sytems, and as long as the Jewish Lobby in the US shout louder, things will continue in the usual fashion.
Uncle Sam for its part has bled a lot of blood and treasure, and yet STILL fails to understand that this will never be a battle for right or wrong, appeasement or determination, it is in fact merely a reflection of its own deeply flawed foreign policy.
The way forward is anyones guess, war with Iran is a possibility, but a remote one IMHO simply because the Iranians don't want war, they want to play brinkmanship, and they are far more astute than Sadam ever was.
Israel is the wild card of course, but again they will lose plenty of tacit support from other gulf states if they act unilaterally, of course the current Israeli government is particularly beligerant so could just as well cut of its nose to spite itself.
Whatever the outcome, there is fault on all sides, uncle Sam is certainly not the value driven country it once was (in the 40's-early 50's) as it has become a haven for corporate corruption and special interests. Iran for its part is playing a dangerous game, a game it won't win in its present form, as usual however it will be the innocent Mr and Mrs average on the street who will suffer, just as their counterpart lower socio-economic groups in the US and UK do today as they make up the greatest percentage of boots on the ground in the various regional on-going military misadventures.

[Landflap]

Sittingidly: Three excellent posts and with the modified manner with which you choose to articulate yourself, a thoroughly enjoyable read.

[maybepilot]

Scatana,

If you read Hamas' statute (do a little serch) you will find out that it's their official goal to "liberate" a country that does not exist from what they call the Zionist invader and that should be achieved by jihad .
Now if you read the main kampf you'll find many analogies between the two documents.
To me that says it all about the intentions of the democratically elected leadership that the Palestinians have chosen, then if you look at what have the Iranians or the Lebanese chosen there is very little these people can teach the Americans in the case of GWB.....

Why don't we talk about the other lobbies as well then? Like the Muslim brotherhood who are democratically winning elections, instating theocracies across the Arab world, ethnically cleansing their terrotories from the infidels, funding the Islamization of he western world through so called islamic cultural centers and the building of mosques and minarets all over the European continent?
Oh I forgot these things can't be debated just like we cannot freely draw cartoons anymore......

[mutt]

Egypt voted today to stop accepting aid from the USA...... (As per AFRTS)

[Sciolistes]

Godwin's Law in action maybepilot? :zzz:

[maybepilot]

Godwin's Law in action maybepilot?

Would agree with you if we were talking about the next F1 race, Grammy award or the best pizza in town but some links are about history:

History of Hitler and Islam - YouTube

[captjns]

THR MCT... It's time for you to step away from the keyboard and take a reality check on life.

Israel does not promote women and children to strap bombs to their bodies and take out other innocent women and children.

That has to be one of the most uncivilized depraved indifference to human life there can be:yuk:.

You can beat your chest until the cows, chickens, camels or whatever comes home... this is just plain evil!

[SassyPilotsWife]

Without any quotes or stories from Wikipedia, swaying political replies, posted videos, or other visual aids, let me say this in the simplest form.



If the US presence is ONLY oil driven, why aren't we loaded to the hilt in Venezuela ?



Someone commented " Of course that's the inconvenient truth....and who is paying for it...the American taxpayer ...next time you guys take care of it on your own.....after all you have it figured out. Now go check your iPhones and date check me, wearing your Raybans & your American Eagle shirts while your sitting in Starbucks before you head off to grab a cheeseburger on the way to the movies...

nobody in the US queuing at this regions embassies for a better life...care to checkout the line at the US embassies around the world "



Exactly my point. I'm sick to death of my tax dollars offering humanitarian efforts to those thousands of miles away when right in our own " back yard" we have homeless and hungry children and war vets. That is just plain wrong.



Our US govt is very corrupt and yes, big corporation run by lobbyist. No American doubts that now. Yes, the baby boomers were raised and educated to be manipulated that the US is the strongest, best, most diplomatic safe country in the world. However, we're no longer nieve. We are fully aware that war sustains the economy and it would be hypocritical for me to disagree given the fact that due to it, my husband and I are living in the ME where his career is dependent on it now as a freight pilot. Yes we can all stand up and protest yet, if we don't pay taxes, we're jailed. If we don't vote, we shouldn't have a say, If we are politically incorrect, we get sued in civil court. The political correctness is now causing our schools to stop correcting kids when their bad, stopped allowing God to be in our schools, stopping free speech, preventing parents from spanking their children. We haven't lost sight of what is right and wrong, we're just not allowed to practice it. Gangs are running the cities. I'll never forget my 1st gang related shooting. Having to ask a gang leader permission to expose and examine my patient because cutting a gang members clothing is an insult to their "colors"



Someone also stated that commenting might result in being labeled " un patriotic". I'll take that any day versus the alternative in other countries for speaking out or protesting the government. But I am certain that too will change later down the road.



If only I could convince my now adult children to leave the US and quit giving 50% of their incomes to a government who doesn't help the very people that they are supposed to support.



Not only are our tax dollars going halfway around the globe, they are going right into the pockets of illegal aliens who are swimming right past our borders.



Hubby said we're going to move into Mexico, obtain citizenship there, then swim back into the US where we will receive free housing, free health care, food stamps, and settle in California where our youngest who is in law school can finish school for free :)



In regards to Gaza... if you want the facts on what is really going on there, talk to the only 2 doctors who have been allowed in there to work. Dr's Mads Gilbert and Erik Fossee. I met both of these doctors at the Trauma Management Conference in Al Ain 3 years back and as a Paramedic whos worked in EMS and FEMA disaster response, I was literally sick to my stomach to learn what is really going on, see pictures of the victims, see pictures of the hospital they were working out of that was bullet and bomb ridden. Isreal said that they hit 90% of their target in Gaza. Do they fail to mention that those targets were schools and hospitals ? They are using taxi's to transport patients because the ambulances are targets. I've never wanted to go work somewhere as badly as Gaza and offered to. But sadly, I was reminded that as an American female, I would be dead within a week. I saw pictures of the injured that showed proof the injuries were from DIME bombs. They are not legal to use and of course Israel denied using them. Gaza has the offense strike nothing bigger than a bottle rocket. Pathetic that they are as defenseless as they are and yet Israel keeps hitting them hard. For what is Gaza's fight? to try and gain back the land that was theirs to begin with? If you want to learn the truth on Gaza, Gaza Volunteer Doctor Tours North America | Community Affairs | Islamic Insights (http://islamicinsights.com/news/community-affairs/gaza-volunteer-doctor-tours-north-america.html)



start there. During the conference, speakers were limited to 15 or 20 minute intervals. When Dr Gilbert got up and spoke, his time was running into 30 min. He apologized and without a dry eye in the building, we stood in ovation requesting he continue. If only the truth were really out there. But the lobbying Zionist don't allow it. In my 12 years of working with medical professionals both domestic and international and working natural disasters, I've never met anyone with so much compassion, caring and TRUTH.

[Fromagio]

Dropping phosphorous bombs on women, children, schools, hospitals and UN compounds that store food and medical supplies is not 'kosher' either!!

[Nearly Man]

Fromagio, good point well made :}

[maybepilot]

Sassy,

I could talk to you about the 1.5 million Israeli Arabs (20% of the total Israeli population and 3 times the population of Gaza) and their right to study and get an education, right to vote ( they even have their representation in the parliament with 3 Arab political parties) , right to join the military (yes there are Arab Muslims in the IDF and entirely Beduin battalions ), right to receive healthcare and social benefits just like the other Israelis , I could tell you about the cities of Jaffa or Acre or Nazareth which are in fact populated by a majority of Israeli Arabs who can conduct a normal and wealthy western standard of life, of course I could also tell you about what you call bottle rockets fired from Gaza indiscriminately over civilian areas and their 40km range (24 miles if you prefer or the distance between Newark and Long Beach) with their deadly effects ( yes there are tens of Israeli victims due to bottles including Israeli Arabs), I could tell you about hamas firing mortar shells from school backyards or civilian building's rooftops or using ambulances to move weaponry and militants or firing from an area and shortly after moving children in hoping to make the news when the Israeli air force hits them back, I could talk to about the almost daily rocket attacks and the thousands Israelis running for shelter when the sirens go off while the news is not even mentioned by international media ( the Syrian regime has killed more civilians in 2011-2 alone than the Israelis since the foundation of the state in 1948 but I'm sure your doctor friend doesn't care and prefers bashing Israel instead).

As you see there are many things we could talk about but let's be honest, you also say that the Arabs are fighting for a land that was theirs in the first place implying you don't recognize the very existence of Israel ......then there's very little to talk about I' m afraid.

P.S.: whose land was America in the first place?Where are the native Indians living?You call them reserves right?
But if a native mexican, whose ancestors were living in the American continent centuries before yours decided to conquer it, wants to move north then you want him out.......

[Gutter Airways]

maybepilot,

My God told me that your wallet is mine, so hand it over chump.

Otherwise I will take it by force, and throw you out onto the street, and stop all medicine and food reaching you. That way I can clean out your lot, and bring my own people in.

If you decide to fight me, I will send in tanks and jets to annihilate you. I will then tell the world that you threw a rocket at me first.

If things start to get out of hand, I will imprison you in a barren land, and control your movement in the land which was once your own.

Why will I do this again, oh yes, because my God told me that your wallet is mine.

In the end, you will love me. :) Kisses.

[Fromagio]

Actually, the population of Gaza is 1.7million so better check your facts. Israel has conscription and so these Bedouin battalions that you speak of aren't volunteers, they're forced into the army. As for the bottle rockets, they're no match for the US built M1 Abrams tanks, F15/F16 fighters, AH1 Apache helicopter gunships with their hellfire antitank missiles that terrorise the largely hapless population of Gaza who are struggling to survive under an israeli blockade.
Wasn't Israel founded on terrorism? I seem to remember that British soldiers were murdered by Zionist terrorists in the run up to 1948.

As for the thread:
Let's bear in mind that US intelligence has stated that Iran stop its nuclear weapons programme back 2003/4. They made this claim in 2007. This is not a secret, it's just not widely reported by the pro Zionist media. The same way that intelligence agencies knew that Saddam no longer possessed WMDs and yet the media seemed to ignore that fact too!!

[captjns]

True, but they dont need to do that, it is the job of Tsahal

The Tsahalis the military force of Israel. That said, I don't quite get the point of yourcomment. Further the Tsahal, pronouncedTZAHAL, does not promote uncivilized depraved indifference to human lifeexercises as Hezbollah, or other Jihadist groups. Such depraved cowards who won't do their own dirty work... a group of people that one would be proud to be associated with.

For the lifeof me, I just can't phantom how anyone with a conscience can send an innocentchild with a bomb strapped to their little bodies to sacrifice their lives. Do the teachings of the Koran support such barbarism?

Thugs that arecowards, putting innocent lives at risk who want peace and are threaten withtheir and family’s lives if they do not cooperate. Come on now… is it really cricket firing rockets from Gaza into Israel fromschool yards where children play... from hospitals where the sick and injuredlay in fear... food stores where the hungry are provided with limited sustenance?

[maybepilot]

You're right Fromagio, apologies for the wrong number I have given as far as the Gaza population is concerned.
On the other hand the IDF doesn't have M1 Abrams tanks but home made Merkavas.
What the IDF does to the palestinians is exactly what the PLO then and Hamas now does to the Israelis with only one difference: the official policy of Hamas is to wipe out the zionist regime while Israel does not want to wipe out anybody.
They just protect their country (then if you don't recognize it it's your problem since it exists as per UN vote) and their interests just like any country would do, even with force if necessary.

As per Israel being founded by terrorism well, you should also check your facts because its history goes well beyond what Irgun members did to the Brits talking of which were occupying a land they didn't own and even deciding for both the Arabs and the Jews about their future while setting up detentions camps for holocaust survivors in Cyprus.

To cut a long story short the world is divided into two groups: those who recognize Israel's right to exist and those who don't.
Obviously for the 7 million Israeli people this is the starting point of a constructive discussion, otherwise they have no other option but defend themselves from those who want to deny their existence.

The palestinians are in the same situation, the only problem is that they are not eager to be constructive but only destructive and they get what they want.

[SassyPilotsWife]

Maybepilot,

"but I'm sure your doctor friend doesn't care and prefers bashing Israel instead)."

My doctor friend is too busy saving lives and working a huge humanitarian effort ( for free ). He doesn't have time to bash Israel. It's not his focus.

The palestinians get what they want ? Are you Effin kidding me ? :=

[maybepilot]

Sassy,

I'm one of those westerners who dislikes political correctness and still says what his freedoms grant him: yes the palestinians have elected Hamas democratically therefore they have to face the official policies they have chosen.

Here is a brief explanation of Hamas' charter: Charters/Constitutions - FATEH Constitution - PLO Charter - Hamas Charter (http://www.mythsandfacts.org/conflict/statute-treaties/all.htm)

Read it and tell me what you think of Hamas itself and of those who chose to vote their ways.

Still waiting for your explanation on who is more at home in the american continent between you and a native mexican you would like to see out of the US border....

[maybepilot]

Fine, consider me a jerk. Pretend I don't have your best interests in mind. Revert to what you know, even if it is not factual. Quite frankly, if you don't do it soon, then I will join the ranks of the majority of humanity, who has simply given up on you.

Don't worry Sassy, even if we have opposite views of the Israeli issue I am still with the minority of humanity which still thinks the western culture and values are worth defending and prefer the USA over the majority of countries this planet has to offer.

Sittingidly is very good at criticizing and his lexicon is quite sharp and rich, he offers no solutions however and if you ask him to name a country he actually admires or a system he would pass on to his kids be sure what comes out of his basket will be as criticizable as the countries and systems he opposes if not probably more.

[SassyPilotsWife]

I'll choose the one who pays taxes and contributes to the system rather than those who swim over and suck the life out of it. :ugh:

[SassyPilotsWife]

The USA invaded Iraq without provocation and based on lies and no sane human-being on the planet would disagree with that fact


Ahh.. there are plenty of military who will attest that WMD's were in fact in Iraq and moved around. But that's a whole other thread and it will be argued as much as this one.

Maybe, I will read it but my viewpoint will not change. Not after seeing the pictures that I saw and learning as much as I did from the docs. I don't care what the charter says.. innocent children, schools and hospitals are targets by the Israeli's and their weapons are much bigger and broader and they are still using illegal phosphorus bombs. It is a freakin small strip of land. Jesus!!

[Sciolistes]

maybepilot,

One Muftie does not a genocidal race make. Hitler was both Christian and against organised religion, so either the Islamic system was irrelevant to the cause or we're all genocidal maniacs.

[maybepilot]

I'll choose the one who pays taxes and contributes to the system rather than those who swim over and suck the life out of it

UAE...taxes?:}:}:}

Maybe, I will read it but my viewpoint will not change.



Then why bother reading.

Not after seeing the pictures that I saw and learning as much as I did from the docs. I don't care what the charter says.. innocent children, schools and hospitals are targets

Ever heard of the Fogel family massacre?No phosphorus here, just a simple knife.Here are the pics:

israel today | Israel News | Pictures of the Fogel family massacre - israel today | Israel News (http://www.israeltoday.co.il/tabid/178/nid/22697/Default.aspx)

By the way the targets the palestinians have been sistematically bombing over the years are city busses, clubs, restaurants just like those who support their cause have been bombing planes, the WTC, the London underground, the Madrid trains, the Bali disco and so on.....

One Muftie does not a genocidal race make. Hitler was both Christian and against organised religion, so either the Islamic system was irrelevant to the cause or we're all genocidal maniacs.


If you don't see the analogy between an ideology like nazism which states the superiority of one race over the others and calls for the extermination of jews,gays,gipsies etc. and a theocracy like the one praised by lots of islamists which considers inferior those who believe in a different god or in no god at all,that considers women like second class citizens, that hangs gays or stones hemos, that kills apostates, that has in its charter the jihad and martyrdom as its highest expression of holiness then I guess I am just part of that half of the world which doesn't see things the way you see them.
And never will.

[fliion]

Love this debate!

Seriously love it: Arab v. Jew..

So can someone please explain to me why a free market democracy of 7m people is stronger than the surrounding Arab poupulation of 350m that doesn't have a democracy amongst them.

BTW it's rhetorical....I've already figured it out....problem is 350m haven't

Good ole fashioned democratic capitalism beat imperialism, nazism, communism and ultimately will beat fundamentalism.

And to Sassy: why are we here?

Tell you why, because I live in a country that has invited the US military on to it's soil, I work for a co. that is the biggest customer of Americas largest exporter, I love going to Starbucks in the mall and watching the local biz men do their deals on the iPads & iPhones...

..but the real reason I like it is because I know If Iran decided to have a go at the UAE the US would be front and center protecting Emiratis who pay no tax with equipment paid for by my tax..

There is just something comically ironic about that...and get this .. I am not allowed to display my flag in public ..

No thanks expected...just a modicum of objectivity every couple of posts.

Respectfully,

f

[Sciolistes]

Some questions (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/julian-borger-global-security-blog/2012/mar/13/parchin-iaea-inspections) about the veracity of the reports issued bybthe IAEA.

[Nearly Man]

Fliion, you de man. You got tight knickers on mate?

[Landflap]

I too am loving the debate but we are creeping away from thread, as usual. Maybe I missed it but has anyone come close to offering an opinion on whether or not war is likely ? I am nowhere nearly as informed as some of the mighty post offerings but my view is that a pre-emptive strike by Israel is highly likely but it will not lead to a "war". Moreover, following Netanyahu's visit to Obama, agreement seems likely that the strike will be witheld until after the Us elections & in exchange, further Technical support will be given to Israel (like serious weaponry). Well, that is what my ex, Valeena, who works in Washington, just told me.

[THR MCT]

Captainjns .....
You r absolutely right about the bodies strapped bombs that the victim of the IDF massacres are using to retaliate mostly women and children.
On the other hand they ready to tread all this WMD with the Israeli arsenal
Phosphorous boms, F16, M16 , Nuks , Tank.......etc
Open up no one in the world believes in ur propaganda anymore and best thing which is your worst nightmare even the American people themselves are opposing your actions and awakening from the long sleep your zionist lobbies put them in ,and they gonna claim back their institutions by the force of a gun
I let you imagine what's gonna happen again to all of you isn't it history repeating it self but that time it gonna happen not in Europe but in the USA .

As you can feel it in this posts an American spring is bubbling as this folks are really sick and tired of doing the dirty war by getting all this boots killed or disabled for life and their hard working class tax money goes as an Aid for you in the name of so called friendship.:=:ugh:

The clock is ticking ..
:E

[maybepilot]

Open up no one in the world believes in ur propaganda anymore and best thing which is your worst nightmare even the American people themselves are opposing your actions and awakening from the long sleep your zionist lobbies put them in ,and they gonna claim back their institutions by the force of a gun
I let you imagine what's gonna happen again to all of you isn't it history repeating it self but that time it gonna happen not in Europe but in the USA .

Last time I heard such rants was while watching a documentary about a bunch of pathetic skin heads and lately some imams....one would assume that a professional pilot would be up for a civilized debate with some in depth analysis but you are definitely not the case.

Since the level of the debate has reached such low I can just reply to you that in 1940 one of the most powerful nations on earth lead by one of the most charismatic leaders who was backed by the majority of his people who happened to be amongst the more educated, disciplined and determined of those times did not succeed in wiping off what he called, just like you do today, the zionist lobby and their followers.
Nowadays there isn't a single country that could match those characteristics and unlike 1940 today's Jews have not only a Country but a mighty army and influential military,economical and social connections worldwide.
Rest assured history will not repeat itself, they have learnt and will not allow it to happen again to your utmost disappointment.
Iran?Not really any threat let's be honest (a coupe of submarines off the coast of India would do the job) , just a country full of oil that sooner or later will bend to the power of $$ to the advantage of both the seller (local regime permitting) and the buyer and this is a rule which was in place well before capitalism and islam.

[Sciolistes]

maybepilot,
Iran?Not really any threat let's be honest (a coupe of submarines off the coast of India would do the job) , just a country full of oil that sooner or later will bend to the power of $$ to the advantage of both the seller (local regime permitting) and the buyer and this is a rule which was in place well before capitalism and islam.
Well, that just about sums it up :ok: But I'm still unsure if that statement, fit to precede the phrase "I rest my case", is for the defence or the prosecution :confused:

[Nilley]

Back to the war, I think is a matter of when not if.

Anyhow I dont think Obama will let this happen until the elections are over. I.e. Rumors of giving bunker buster missiles to israel to keep them at bay a bit longer. Oil will go ballistic on the war news, (not so good for a Pres wanting to get re-elected).. The question is how will the UAE fair economically and from a safety standpoint. Sources that I have followed said that Iran would be sending missiles into the UAE... I assume the initial few days would be the greatest threat to safety in the UAE. Any thoughts on the likelihood of the UAE becoming a target? I'm looking into joining Emirates, but would like to see how this all plays out first.

[Tableview]

BBC News - Iran's banks to be blocked from global banking system (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17390456)

Another step towards isolating this awful regime, but sadly one which is going to hit hardest at the innocent civilians who are themselves victims of the regime. The elite and those in power, just as in Zimbabwe, will have ways of circumventing sanctions.

[odericko2000]

Americans in the middle east protecting Emiratis? guyz on this thread sure are dreamers, maybe just ignorant airframe drivers with little or no understanding of greater politics and propaganda that is at play in our brave new world.

Amazing, mmh mmh! :ugh:

[slowjet]

odd. Do not let Sittingidley get hold of your... "mmmms....eeerrrrs" drives him into a complete psychotic breakkdowns.just when we thought he was doing so well !!

[Pitch Up Authority]

Hi Slowjet

That is a serious statement you make there. Sittingidly suffering from a psychotic breakdown ? Euh ... according to ICAO Manual of Aviation Medicine someone should revoke his license.

Or maybe your point is that individuals who fly around with a whole country are exempted ?

[captjns]

Can you explain why Obama (among others) are on their knees, during the "traditional" IAPAC speach


Soooo.. why hasn’t the rest of the ME spoken up about Iran’snuclear development program?
Why hasn’tthe rest of the ME intervened in Syria? Do they expect NATO to fix the problem?

[odericko2000]

Why shouldn't they (NATO) fix the Syria problem? They were very quick in bombing Libya and Gaddafi, reason being he was being brutal with the Libyans who weren't soldiers, Isn't Assad killing his own people as well, his being an iron fisted government even two western journalists have lost their lives at the hands of Bashars forces, still no intervention or tough stance from the west like they did with Gaddafi, whats the difference here?

Oh i forget could it be the incestuous relationship the western powers have with the Syrian leader with regards to Syria's black gold, almost 90pcnt of Syrias export oil is sold to Europe. could this be the reason NATO is criticizing Assad from a distance and unwilling to intervene, i could be wrong but the glaring difference in the way the US and NATO intervened in Libya is plain to see.

Again i could be wrong:ugh:

[captjns]

Yes you could be wrong... Ode. I beleive there was participation from some ME countries in Libya too. Although I can be wrong too.

[Sciolistes]

Why hasn’tthe rest of the ME intervened in Syria? Do they expect NATO to fix the problem?
The Arab League managed to do more than the West, albeit unsuccessfully, actually it was a bit of a farce. But at least they put people on the ground.

[captjns]

At the end of the day, Syria is a Middle East situation to which if the Arab League wants to step up to the plate, then so they shall.

[odericko2000]

@ Kijangnim,
I stand corrected, but my understanding was EU was syrias biggest trade partner before the embargo.

Or maybe the oil out of Syria is just not enough motivation for the west, at about 100,000 barrels a day and soon to become a net importer of oil by 2015 with dwindling oil reserves, unlike Iraq or Libya.

Again im just trying to understand the motivation behind the very decisive action against Iraq and Libya, including peddling falsehoods in the pretext of protecting Iraqis and Libyans against their tyrant Leaders, Is Assad a lesser tyrant or there just isnt enough motivation in terms of reward in Syria.:rolleyes:

[Trader]

od--you can be decisive in Libya because the 'neighbors' don't care. Syria is a little too close to Iran (especially considering the issue there) to be sending in miltary.

[odericko2000]

Just re read, didn't say Syria was EU's biggest partner, i said EU was Syria's biggest commercial partner with regards to sale of their oil before the embargo.
Or if i rephrase EU was their biggest customer

[Sciolistes]

As to when, and if, Iran will be attacked in the name of Middle East peace and stability, I really don't know.
I would have thought that the whole point of attacking Iran is to undermine stability in the region. If the region was stable, then the respective countries might actually be able to cooperate, trade and make arms buying and oil selling decisions independent of the West. That simply wouldn't do :rolleyes:

[Alconguin Crusader]

Here is some tidbits for you American haters to munch on;

Before WW 2 there were not even two dozen democracies in the world. After the American Century started in 1945 (really much before that date) to the present day there are now over 100.

After the Cold War ended over 3 Billion people enter the market place. The steady hand of the US helped end the Cold War and allowed for so many people to enjoy their freedom.

More people apply to be citizens of the US then apply to all the other countries COMBINED. The US accepts more immigrants than all of the other countries COMBINED.

Except for the short period after WW 2 the US economy has been almost a constant 26-28% of the world GDP. Keeping in mind the US only has about 4% of the world's population.

The US aviation sector is down now to only about 35-40% of the world's flights. There are over 30,000 commercial flights in the US a day and this does not include the military, VFR flights, and private Biz jets which account for a lot more activity.

As was said earlier who do you want to run the world? Believe me I want the US to pull back and stop babysitting the world's cesspools. It doesn't get us much in GDP growth and actually hinders our economy having to bail out so many regions and rouge states. That money could be much better spent at home.

Stingily must have applied to the US for a passport and got rejected.

[fliion]

The US and it's successful business model accounts for just under a quarter of Global GDP yet is less than 5% of the worlds population.

China has 9.5% of global GDP yet is heading towards 20% of worlds population. It is not a democracy and has a history of machine gunning democracy protesters. But as usual the savants on here pay no attention and direct their scorn west...must be great to be Chinese (unless you live in Tibet) ... model nation.

One note on aviation....each year the EK CRM dept put up a slide on accidents per 100,000 or is it 1,000,000?.,, Can't remember ...anyhow the accident rate on the numeric for N.America is .04, for Europe it's 100% higher at .08.., the rest of the world is considerably higher..with Africa & Latin America Of particular note. oz is coupled with Asia, so hard to tell.

Anyway contrary to Sitty's mad theories the numbers don't lie. Incidentally he had no problem pitching up for his 14 week bonus and 12% pay raise last May given out by what he describes as atrocious mgt.

Sitty please give us the name of three long haul international airlines that have great mgt.

Eagerly standing by.

Respectfully

f.

[fliion]

Eh..if you are referring to the fact that our flying hours went up that was four years ago.

My comment referenced last 'YEAR'

Relief boys and girls...surely he cannot be a pilot!

Mission accomplished...thanks sitty

f.

[fliion]

Sitty

If things are so bad here and your theories on currency and gold and all the stuff with which you have commented so strongly on are your core beliefs.

Why are you still here?

Seriously man...for most o us this is comical jousting...but it hits a nerve very time with you no matter the subject...at which point it's insult followed by crazy global US conspiracy theory after theory.

By your own admission you think EK mgt are crap.

Just tell us all why you don't leave?

Simple question.

f

[Swan Man]

Filion don't act like all those soft c0ck emirates pilots that think Emirates is a good airline. "If you don't like it just go." WTF, O. Is that how you were raised? Why don't we all try and make this a good airline?
I do think the US is probably one of the best countries in the world (even with all of its faults, after all where else in the world are the poor people fat?) but I also think Emirates has a long way to go before it is a top airline for pilots.
You might have come from one of those regional airlines in the states flying those Furlough Jets but not all of us did that. Some did come from good airlines and think EK can improve on a lot of items in the contract including and starting with the pay. You prove the fool when you defend the company or at least prove where you came from. Stand up!
Emirates has a long way to go. Let raise the bar for everyone.

[THR MCT]

Sittingidly
I'm really impressed by your insights and I can't stop reading your post amazing presentation of very factual acts.

You deserve all my respect and consideration

Fly high and fast but always stay safe:ok:

[fliion]

Time to sign off on this thread..THR MCT & Sitty are here.

Swan...what you are missing (common with pilots) is that an airlines mgt are not indebted to pilots. Their job is to return the shareholder it's mandate (brand Dubai & profits) while attracting/maintaining talent.

I absolutely agree with voting with your feet. The only people voting with their feet right now are the thousands of pilots who are flocking to the EK interview.

No one here saying its perfect...but I do have the balls to move when it's better elsewhere

You?

f.

[Swan Man]

Filion Emirates is the best job you have ever had and will ever have. We know your "talent" level.
There are lot's of places where it is better and many of us have flown at those airlines. You have only flown at places that take jobs from those good airlines, thanking God every day that you have a "job".
Let 's see how good EK management is when they have to contend with unions, a real FAA and the Rule of Law. `Not to mention a government that bends over backwards to make sure its employees stay in line (unlike Kuwait) and the airline gets whatever it wants.
After all most if not all EK managers have failed at other airlines. Why do you think they are successful here but failed in the real world?

[captjns]

Actually "those" regional airlines flying "furlough jets" came about as the result of you guys at the "good" airlines allowing the outsourcing of flying in your coveted contracts. Had that flying not been allowed by you and your colleagues, those airlines would not have existed and you would not be blaming others for all your life's sorrows right now. I love it when guys hide behind their screen name to act tough.

God bless ALPA:yuk:, the MECs who defect to management:*, and the disillusioned supporters of ALPA and their MECs:ugh:.

Ya gotta love it.

[vickers23]

I admire your energy to inform and arouse, especially your good intend towards the ones who choose the remain in wonderland. U are smack on with a lot of your observations. ME, Gold , Manipulation by the less than 1% etc etc etc.

Leave the sheep who do not want to jump or have the capacity or who chooses deliberately the blue pill instead of the red pill so they can stay in the matrix.

I have something for you , which will give a new dimension to your acquired knowledge (maybe you already know it):

John F. Kennedy Speech, April 27, 1961 : John F. Kennedy : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive (http://www.archive.org/details/jfks19610427)

Every word has a meaning in the 19 min. with the most important being the last sentence(the ultimate goal of them), what u and I know.... but this now is not sittingidly or vickers23 but a president saying the exact same things as sittingidly over 50 years ago...

[White Knight]

There are lot's of places where it is better and many of us have flown at those airlines. You have only flown at places that take jobs from those good airlines, thanking God every day that you have a "job".


Keep dreaming swanny...........................

Another ruddy idiot on the ME forum:ugh:

[crewmeal]

Some time ago I noticed the Iranian dows filling up with cargo on the quayside in Derra. Everything from food to printers to the latest tvs. If you went further down you would see the Somali dows filling up with cargo, which included a car or two precariously loaded on an imbalanced dow. I guess this is one way of getting round sanctions that various organisations try and impose.

I can't see that stopping in the near future.

[vickers23]

This speech was performed 3 days after the ' unordered ' bay of pigs 'by JFK'.....

And the rabbit hole goes much deeper than you can handle , IF you discard systematically your governments corruptness,dishonest intentions (with foreign nations or with YOU for that matter)etc.etc.etc....btw with your government i mean literally anybody who is reading this coz it is NOT nationality restricted!!! any nationality, country and RELIGION goes.....

Do not forget humans have a defensive mechanism;

something beyond comprehension WILL automatically be rejected as nonsense, hence if the conspiracy is big enough it will become a theory = unreal (=hitler).

Give em a half a cup at a time, if they are still thirsty give em the remaining half of it (the truth) (confucius).

These thing you are talking about are so big and the preps for it have been started centuries ago by these men (protocols of the le@rned eld@rs of zoin) , that you cannot even give em a half a cup which is already too much.

' YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH '........ is a sentence used frequently in hollywood movies directly controlled by the very same people behind the scenes.......

I understand your motives to arouse, because if it succeeds it effects HUMANITY (no borders,no nationality no religion etc etc) and there will be no way back. Live is a giant chess game, the result is decided in the begin phases of it. The trained eye can see it coming but the sheep will proceed in an orderly fashion one step at a time to the slaughter house........ Reality is blurred and unintentional support for the wrong side due to lack of knowledge of the TRUTH will consequently make the very same people supporting the system obsolete.....in time and in sequence...

For us the options are slim to none, I am still looking myself. One thing is for sure no-participation from my side!!!

[vickers23]

I have to correct you on the message of JFK (I have listened to this speech over and over and over again)

His message is for MANKIND not the USA only,... last sentence.

[SCATANA]

CNN rejects as 'ridiculous' Syrian claims it collaborated with 'terrorists' - CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/2012/03/23/world/meast/syria-cnn-allegations/index.html?hpt=hp_t3)

[captainsmiffy]

Varmint, you can wreck an industry or you can 'wreak havoc' on an industry but you cannot simply wreack it....

[Sal-e]

Interesting development.

New US battle strategy against Iran in US movements and Israeli drill (http://www.debka.com/article/22003/)

Todays meeting:

The GCC summit which began in Riyadh on the same day had three key items on its agenda: Iran’s military, political and covert threat to the region’s stability; the Syrian crisis; and unification steps between Saudi Arabia and Bahrain to ward off Iranian interference in the Shiite-led unrest.

[falconeasydriver]

Sal-e,

I'm assuming you have a modicum of understanding when it comes to history, regional and international politics as well as how this unstable and complex area of the world operates.
Firstly, I agree entirely with your question, actually its a rhetorical question, every military constantly prepares for war as that is ultimately the eventual outcome when all other political avenues/patience has been spent.
The real question must be what type of conflict would be fought, clearly Iran is outmatched in terms of her conventional arsenal but has some marginal tactical advantages in terms of her willingness or otherwise to use unconventional tactics/weapons.
If a conflict were to erupt, I'd expect Irans ability to do anything other than nuisance raids or attacks to be degraded in fairly short order, yes a surprise or two might eventuate from her, but ultimately she has neither the materia'l or resources with respect to technology or sustainability to be anything other than a paper tiger.
That being said, military doctrine is a mult-faceted beast, the US and her allies will be continuing to assess the threats as they see them and will be or already have developed tactics to counter an unconventional foe, don't forget that the US military has come a long way since Somalia, and have evolved through bitter experience to be a very effective fighting force against unconventional forces.
Iran knows this, the US knows this, as do all the GCC countries and Israel etc.
If anything, any skirmishes will be limited in scope and location due to the Iranian lack of any sustainability, the big fear will be co-ordinated terror like attacks on key installations by Iranian special Ops units around the region.
Iran wants a seat at the big boys table, it seeks to dominate the region as it try's to extend its influence.
Ultimately the Iranians are a pretty shrewd bunch, they know that if they push too hard things will snowball and be ultimately self defeating.
I would be surprised if a conflict were to start.