Easyjet disruptive passengers

[wigglyamp]

Was on an Easyjet flight to Marrakech on Sunday when a female passenger caused much disruption. Ended up with the Captain in the cabin trying to sort it out and the passenger being escorted off by police on arrival. On the return flight, two passengers nearly got into a fight over locker space! Was it my bad luck or just Easyjet's treatment of the cattle that leads to so much grief?

[Mowgli]

Probably the cattle. Too many don't know how to behave.

[PT6A]

On your inbound flight into RAK at what point did the Captain come into the cabin to address the problem?

I would not say this is a problem of easyJet's making, but rather a sad reflection on today's society.

Incidents of "air rage" occur on every type of carrier from low cost to legacy... Heck even on private charters.

[BigFrank]

If your premise is correct then MOL will be selling tickets for the regular punch ups on Ryanair given that his company wins out every time in the bovine transport department.

As he is not, I for one would discount this premise as the cause.

Which is not to belittle in any way what I take to be your concern for what must be a most unpleasant not to say frightening experience for the other passengers.

You don't mention booze. Were any of the passengers involved under the influence would be my first question and/ or premise ? (Though I am well aware that plenty of members of the great British public can be nauseatingly obstreperous even when stone cold sober.)

[wigglyamp]

The captain came into the cabin probably an hour into the flight and it took a good 15 mintues and help from several passengers to get the unruly behaviour of the passenger under control and have her located between two guys elsewhere in the cabin so she could be controlled. It even appeared that a steward had to guard the cockpit door any time anyone went in/out. - although I suppose that could be standard practise?

[captplaystation]

Very clearly stipulated , in Ryanair, & I think pretty much all companies, no matter what happens in Cabin, flightdeck crew ABSOLUTELY prohibited from leaving the cockpit to intervene (in some respects a bit anal I know, & sometimes you really WOULD like to come back to deck the b@stards, but I think we all know / understand where this prohibition came from.)
So, if this report isn't just BS, one more DEC vacancy in FR methinks.

[PT6A]

Captain I agree with everything you said... But this is about easyJet not FR :)

However the same policy applies at easy.

[wigglyamp]

I'm sure the airline are going to know the captain left the cockpit as the police met the aircraft, so I guess an MOR will have been filed.

[PT6A]

Could you please elaborate on what she was doing that was disruptive?

Shouting, threats or actually getting physical with crewmembers / passengers?

[wigglyamp]

I've no idea what the trigger was but she was being very vocal and stoppy with the cabin crew and wouldn't shut up even when the captian tried to calm her down. Fortunately a couple of other male passengers managed to talk to her and eventually she relocated to a seat between them and calm was restored.

[captplaystation]

Leaving the cockpit in flight is a NO NO ! ! Forget Ryanair / Easy Jet whatever, it's the same everywhere now.

Why do you think we have this wonderful expensive door ?

Much as we (used to ) do it, now, absolutely VERBOTEN.

Bad news, you can't be " Captain Fantastic" & tackle total tossers head -on :}

Good news, you don't confuse "Total Tossers" with "Al Q" or something equally sinister , & get a pointed object forcibly inserted amongst your internal organs :ok:.


Bit worrying (particularly for the Capt involved) if this ISN'T BS

[stepwilk]

sometimes you really WOULD like to come back to deck the b@stards

Be pretty awkward if the bastard decked you. Could happen, no matter how heavy your four stripes are.

[captplaystation]

Indeed, & sometimes, the regulations actually do us a service, particularly if we are small (physically) aggressive little b@stards.

In fact, it was never a good idea anyhow,even in the past, as someone who is actually up for a fight, is unlikely to bother much about ones regalia, & the outcome was much more likely to be decided by mass/brawn as opposed to intellect/status. Sometimes the more primeval part would like to react, most probably for the good (of ones face) we are not allowed to , any more.

[kick the tires]

The Captain has the authority to do whenever he wants in an emergency, including deviating from any SOP´s he deems necessary to ensure the safety of the aircraft and its passengers. Period.

The Commander shall, in an emergency situation that requires immediate
decision and action, take any action he considers necessary under the
circumstances. In such an event, he may deviate from rules, operational
procedures, and methods in the interest of safety.

Have authority to give all commands he deems necessary for the purpose of
securing the safety of the aircraft and of persons carried therein, and all persons
carried in the aircraft shall obey such commands;

It was his decision, thats whats he's/ she's paid for. NO ONE here knows what the circumstances were so cannot make a judgement.

[B737NG]

True, unfortunatly reality of today´s societey. When we went to fly in the 70´s as a Pax we had worn suit and tie and the Girls the Sunday dress...... look today. We have around one trouble maker in a month. Doesn´t matter if they smoke, argue, bringing plants on bord or just are up to get attention because they think they can. If they get too noisy then they can fly too... from the Pax-list if the problem starts during the bording.

We had recently another 30 min. delay because of taking two Pax off and looking for the bags. It would of no use if I would start to intervene from face to face and end up up punched. There are very "sensible" Security and Police Officers around who have been trained to handle it and do not hesitate to grap the moment to use the trained skills one to one and set the pace.

If it is during the flight we do not hesitate to land somewhere else and off load the person or group. Strictly obey the security thread to be removed. The costs born to that will be handed over, mostly a fruitless attempt, to the trouble causing Pax.

By the way I had unruly´s in First or Business Class as well during the middle of the night over the Pacific in the past, so not only Kettle.

[Rananim]

The Captain has the authority to do whatever he wants in an emergency, including deviating from any SOP´s he deems necessary to ensure the safety of the aircraft and its passengers.

Well said.

Leaving fd not required this side of the pond for obvious reasons.But a Captain can take whatever measure he thinks best to ensure safety.And if they fire him,he should sue.Company SOP's are superceded by regs.Aviation needs more Captains and less SOP puppets.He would have considered his actions carefully,taken all necessary precautions and then acted.That is perfectly normal and correct.Assuming of course that this is what happened.

[BlueTui]

Poor show the cabin crew couldn't deal with the very situation they are paid and trained to actually do. These low cost airlines that insist on promoting on "merit" (the staff best as sucking up to management) will always fall foul when these situations occur as the senior crew members are not always the best to deal with it.

As cabin crew myself I would not want either of the pilots dealing with any situation, they are there to get ME safely on the ground not mess about with some stupid drunk Brit.

[cessnapete]

It is not forbidden for UK flight crew to leave the cockpit. Or do they all wear nappies? Very few a/c have toilets in the flight deck. On long multi crew flight Capts often visit the pax cabin for a chat.

[ExXB]

A friend of mine regularly forwards me NAVCAN's daily incident reports. I've noted that WestJet flights regularly (i.e. more than two or three times a week) have reports of disruptive passengers. i.e. where police/security are requested to meet the aircraft. Disruptions include smoking in the lavs, fighting, drunken behaviour on board and at the gate, stealing from the drinks trollies, drinking own booze (and refusing to stop) etc.

Once in a while you might see something from an AC or Jazz flight but probably only once a month or so.

No comment on the quality of the passengers, and perhaps AC doesn't ask for assistance (or report incident to NAVCAN). But one does wonder.

[FirstOfficer]

I am not surprised at all by what happened. Just look at the way society is heading (In general terms). No respect, no education, no manners, no morals and the list goes on...

[BigFrank]

Anyone able to inform us of any league tables ?

Does the politically correct / company-reputation-saving strategem of not admitting or reporting or encouraging reporting or indeed allowing (by many management strategies related to promotion for instance) reporting go on in the airline industry as in so many other walks of life, I wonder

[Sark]

We had an issue on an Easyjet flight at TFS where a passenger got up during the take off run to search for something in her bag which was in an overhead locker!

Also Easyjet where immediately on landing people get up to get bags down whilst we were slowing down still on the runway. More than once, again TFS.

[Telstar]

I've found the Moroccans to be, in general, very aggressive passengers. Trying to get them to sit down and put their bags away is like herding cats. If they take umbrage to a request or an instruction from Cabin Crew they will scream and shout and cause disruption until they get their own way. It may be a cultural difference.

[PT6A]

Maybe it's time each seat is not only fitted with a lifejacket, but also a TASER:eek:

[Victor Inox]

When we went to fly in the 70´s as a Pax we had worn suit and tie and the Girls the Sunday dress...

Whilst money is no guarantee for reasonable behaviour (or intelligence) these days, the relatively high financial barrier in former years did keep out the worst of society.

[Dream Buster]

Telstar,

Surely sheep are easy to herd - don't you mean cats?

[Centaurus]

He would have considered his actions carefully,taken all necessary precautions and then acted.

It was a few years ago now but in my airline the captain had a truncheon at his disposal and full authority to use it. Wasn't it just a few years ago when a BA flight engineer armed with a C02 fire extinguisher went down the back to subdue a recalcitrant idiot. With the extinguisher pointed right in his face the man quickly sat down.

On another occasion in my old company, the female FA's were getting felt up by a drunken bush-lawyer Pacific islander on a flight Hong Kong to Guam via Taipei. . The next port of call was Taipei. The captain decided to sort out the islander personally as it was obvious the FA's were unable to do so. He shirt fronted the islander and said unless the bloke sat down and behaved himself he (the captain) would arrange for the Taiwan police to meet the aircraft and take way the islander to be tortured. It was no empty threat and it worked a treat.

It is such a pity that the rules and regs in theory prevent the captain from leaving the flight deck and thus leave the flight attendants to get beaten up by some drunken bum while the flight crew lock themselves safely behind the door and pretend not to know what is happening down the back. The FA's can only hope some passengers will come to their aid if things turn nasty while the flight crew cower behind their locked door.

[hawker750]

Wiglyamp's first post describes the passengers as cattle; is that his impression of the passengers or his desciption of the way Easyjet treats their passengers? Either way I think he has lost the plot. For the many flights I have done on EasyJet the aircraft, the cabin crew, service, and yes, the punctuality have been brilliant. You get a good service at a low cost. If people do not like the service there are always altenatives but their loads keep up as do their profits and that's what business is all about. I have nothing to do with EasyJet, just a fan of them.

[JW411]

I can remember a colleague of mine in Laker going back into the cabin to try to reason with a large stroppy American passenger. The passenger laid him out cold. The F/O closed the throttles and diverted straight into Winnipeg. The passenger ended up in jail.

In those days, the smart answer was to send the F/E back with the fire axe.

[konradeck]

BTW: Today LO002 (KORD-EPWA) had to land in EGPF due to the passenger messing-up.

[Wycombe]

Some years back I was pax down the back-end of a Northwest 747 from MSP-LGW. During the latter stages of the flight some exciteable young American chaps were drinking and getting a bit rowdy (not abusive, or violent, just a bit boisterous and a pain to those sat around them trying to sleep, travelling with kids etc).

When we arrived at the gate at LGW, and before any pax were disembarked, two of the largest PC's I have ever seen came onboard, proceeded to the back of the aircraft and, in no uncertain terms, but calmly, told these chaps that "they would be returning direct back to the US unless they started to behave themselves".

The silence was immediate :ok:

[ross_M]

It is such a pity that the rules and regs in theory prevent the captain from leaving the flight deck and thus leave the flight attendants to get beaten up by some drunken bum while the flight crew lock themselves safely behind the door

Why is the Captain's intervention supposed to work any better than, say, the purser? I mean the man has training to fly a plane; not to be a bouncer in a bar!

[Sir George Cayley]

I like easyJet F/As, but there again I also like Ryanair F/As. Which one should I chose?


There's only one way to find out -










FIGHT !







:D:D:D:D:D:D SGC

[ross_M]

When we went to fly in the 70´s as a Pax we had worn suit and tie and the Girls the Sunday dress...... look today. We have around one trouble maker in a month.

What's the ratio of PAX traffic between the 70's and now? Obviously there will be more incidents. Has the number of incidents per passenger-hour flown spiked? I bet not.

[edi_local]

Why is the Captain's intervention supposed to work any better than, say, the purser? I mean the man has training to fly a plane; not to be a bouncer in a bar!


You're right in that the pilot is there to fly the plane, however they are in charge of the aircraft,m everything on it and everyone sitting behind them.

In days gone by when a captain spoke to a passenger they would have been seen as a figure of authority and the passenger would almost certainly have shut up and sat down and stayed that way until the plane landed. Nowadays the pilot is just seen as another target for some of the idiots who fly. Someone else to argue with, lash out at or ignore. TV shows like Airline have shown people that if the break the rules, they can still get away with it, or if they shout and scream at staff, they'll still be allowed to go on their way. It's always the airlines fault, always the crews fault, no-one is able to take irresponsibility for their own actions any more.

Thankfully the vast majority of passengers are perfectly well behaved individuals who do follow simple instructions.

[maxred]

I am not surprised at all by what happened. Just look at the way society is heading (In general terms). No respect, no education, no manners, no morals and the list goes on...

Exactly, it is evident everywhere. Couple of years ago I missed a connection out of CDG, wife two kids in tow. Only option was RYR last flight Friday night out of Bouvais, to PIK. 560.00 at gate, and you would have thought I was flying in an open sewer. I was utterly astonished at the behaviour, and drunkeness. They actually had an Irish bar at the terminal, and you wonder why there are issues once in the air????
*

[Sunnyjohn]

There's nothing particularly unusual about unruly behaviour on public transport - which is what a low-cost flying is. Such disturbances are so common on trains, and to some extent on buses, that they are rarely reported, and the history of them goes back as far as the history of public transport. What is happening now is not that people are becoming more unruly - there have always been unruly people - but that flying has become so common that the incidences appear to be greater. Statistically - and I have no figures to prove it - I suspect that nothing much has changed.

[Rollingthunder]

The passengers, where fit and able, have a duty of care to ensure their own and other pax's and cabin attendants protection. The pointy end crew should never have to get involved. other than to radio for police to meet the aircraft on arrival.

I have never had to intervene in a situation on-board an aircraft (Canadians seem to be more civilized then some). However, once, on a bus a woman driver let a low life on-board without paying the fare and said, "Alright, I'll take you across the bridge". Across the bridge he did not get up and get off so she told him to get off. He came roaring up the bus and as he got to the driver his right arm was outstretched, fist clenched. I was sitting right there and grabbed his right wrist and the scruff of his neck. She told him to get off again. He made no indication of doing so so I literally lifted him up and put him on second step down with a push towards the pavement. She later said thank you. I said,"You take care on here".

[Dream Buster]

Passengers = Self Loading Freight

I always preferred plain freight flying - in the dark.

Good luck guys....

DB :ouch:

[glad rag]

Probably the cattle. Too many don't know how to behave. I was scolded for talking to a fellow passenger during the safety brief.

I was in fact asking if the fellow passenger could repeat the instruction-re lifevests under seats-when there was a large sign on the overheads saying "LIFEVEST STOWED OVERHEAD" above each seat.

Oh how I enjoyed timing the bell push just prior to them plumped their fat asses before to the cab turning onto the runway.
Oh Yes, the sudden visualization on their faces of giving the WRONG preflight brief, indeed, revenge is sweet.:}


wrayairflightfromprestwicktostanstead

[funfly]

Call people cattle and they will start to act like cattle.
It's not just the passengers who seem to suffer from lack of respect.

[Hydromet]

I recall reading many years ago of an emergency evac. where the pax wouldn't move quickly, despite the CC instructions, until a steward put his cap on. Seems the peaked cap conferred some authority.
Do CC have caps now? May the captain, with his cap on, be able to convince the offender to calm down? Don't know, and I think I'd rather have the flying crew flying.

[Agaricus bisporus]

As far as I am aware getting involved in any altercation with pax is a complete no-no even on the ground. Disuption sufficient to require that means a call for Police to sort it out. Leaving the flight deck to deal with trouble in flight is, I have to say, almost beyond belief under any circumstances, and to hear of this being done post 11-9? Staggering! If the trouble is that serious it is a diversion matter, surely, and no one will question or criticise that? But I'd hate to be on the carpet to explain leaving the flight deck - and I don't think invoking "Captain's discretion to vary SOPs" would cut much ice in that case somehow.
No doubt the real facts will come out in the wash.

[Roxy]

Why are we having to listen to so much nonsense on this forum. So many flight sim captains here as per usual. If I diverted for something as trivial as this that I could not sort out by what ever means I would be fired first thing in the morning! End of story!airlines are now controlled by the bean counters and "managers" on bonuses! Rules and most of all CRM are the greatest tools to flight safety but until the airlines wake up to this and pay attention to it then it's just a slippery slope that at best costs the airline a fortune or at worst an accident! It's the old story, "if you think safety and CRM is expensive then look at the cost of the many incidents and accidents!!!
Anyway, rant over and I sincerely hope that the Captain keeps his job with no hassle. Please think about the trouble and hassle you pose to the individual before you post something like this on a "professional" pilots forum!

[Dan Winterland]

When you look at what the passenger is subjected to on a modern flight, you start to have a better understanding of the situation. They are lured onto the flight by a low advertised fare, only to find that they have to pay extra for airport passenger duty, for fuel surcharges, for using their credit card, for checking in, for checking their baggage, for a choice of seat and for a pre booked meal. Once they have braved and endured the security gestapo, there's a mad rush to the aircraft to get a good seat (if they haven't booked one) and now they are in a cramped, noisy unpleasant environment decked out in bright colours and have to suffer a constant barrage of PAs telling them to buy the duty free and scratchcards. And if they didn't book the pre ordered meal, they have to pay through the nose for disgusting pap from the pay as you dine service. Couple this with the fact that they no longer have respect for authority, that they know their rights, have been told by the airline's CEO (who hates his staff) that the pilots flying his aircraft are just overpaid underworked glorified bus drivers, have a high sugar and additive diet and also have just rushed to the aircraft from the overpriced bar, it's hardly suprising that there are going to be tensions on board.


I left the UK some time ago and my memories of flying the British holiday maker are mostly a distant memory. However, in the last two years I had reminders while on visit when I took low cost flight and an IT flight. I was suprised at the behaviour of some of my fellow passengers. Most of them were from the shallow end of the gene pool and it wasn't pleasant being crammed into a 28" seat pitch environment with them. I now work in Asia and my passengers are very well behaved in comparison. We do have incidents, they are very rare. In the last seven years, I have only had to offload one passenger - he was an American.

[Nicholas49]

Dan Winterland: spot on. It is no justification for illegal conduct, of course, but it matters. Flying today is now a stressful experience for even the calm-headed folk.

I would add that the fact passengers today hardly ever see the Commander (or F/O for that matter) 'in person' thanks to tight turn-arounds / (understandable) rules on FD crew being in the cabin does absolutely nothing to instill respect for the persons of authority legally in charge of their safety and well-being.

AB: not sure I agree with you that the Commamder shouldn't sort out trouble on the ground, if s/he thinks that is appropriate. Again, if we never actually see you...! Would have thought a visit to said passenger (maximising their embarrassment) along lines 'behave or I'll have you escorted off this flight' is a very effective way to fix a problem?

[lurkio]

Sorting it out on the ground always worked for me. A little walk down the cabin, a bit of "face time" with the offending article explaning the options and listing the various authorities and conditions they will have to deal with and hey presto a trouble free flight.
If it kicks off in flight take the opinion of the cabin manager, divert or continue. They are best placed to decide whether they can handle the situation and are trained to deal with it. A very supportive PA that even the average IQ challenged brit holidaymaker could understand can work wonders when the yob mentality takes over.
If you do divert make sure you have your ducks in a line coz sure as eggs is eggs the Monday morning quarterbacks back at HQ will pick over everything you have done, in slow time, in a comfy office, to see who takes the blame for the cost. Me, I don't care much about that. I am tasked with getting pax (neanderthal or not) to their destination safely and will make decisions based on that not some spreadsheet.
I have to say though that Easy are very supportive of their crews in these situations.

[BigFrank]

Whilst it is impossible to definitively deduce the sense in which the OP used the term, I decided to interpret it in the sense of "an airline which treats its passengers like cattle" and my first and subsequent contributions were based on this premise.

Just as it is indeed offensive to label passengers as cattle, so too is it, at least in my opinion, to treat them as such.

Perhaps even more so ?

[Rail Engineer]

Call people cattle and they will start to act like cattle.
It's not just the passengers who seem to suffer from lack of respect.I have to say I too am somewhat disappointed by the pompous and disrespectful attitude shown by some within the Industry towards those who in actual fact do pay their salaries at the end of the day.

If they find flying passengers so distasteful perhaps they are in the wrong job ? Maybe they should be flying freight ?

As a railway engineer I also have to make decisions which can at worst impact on the safety of hundreds of people when I authorise the handback of the track into operational service, and in the very worst event this could result in a multiple high speed collision. Similarly I am sure there are many others who fly who have equally if not more onerous responsibilities for peoples immediate safety and wellbeing.

Anyway to return to the topic, as a regular long and short haul flyer, I would prefer that the flight deck crew did not come back into the cabin to deal with trouble-makers. We regularly experience violence to staff on the Railways from the lowly scrote, right up to those in high-earning and important positions in life. It can even involve us Engineers at times. No-one without the correct training can necessarily always identify a situation which is quickly going to turn violent, and when passengers do turn to violence to emphasise their inability to interact in a reasonable way on a civilised level, the fact that it is the Captain of the a/c will not feature in their thinking.

Personally I would rather the Captain or the FO were both physically capable of doing what they are paid for which is to manage the safety of the a/c and the flight. Getting into debates with angry passengers may well satiate some of the more "aplha-male" types on here but frankly an airline who would allow its flight deck crew to place themselves into situations where one of the FD crew may be assaulted and effectively disabled from their duties is not an airline that would be towards the top of my preferred list.

Sorry if this upsets anyone but of course I am only a lowly member of the cattle.

[BALLSOUT]

I would expect the captain will be in bother for his actions. The SOP of staying the other side of a secure door in such an incidence is to protect the aircraft, passengers and crew. If the cabin crew can't handle a situation like this, the captain is to divert and land the aircraft, not put himself (and everyone) at risk!
Once the aircraft is safely secured on the ground, he can put "himself" at risk if he pleases.

[flyingtincan]

Do we know if it was the 'Captain' in the cabin or were there 3 crew on the flight deck?

[wigglyamp]

In using the term 'Cattle' for the pax, I included myself in that description. It was a commonly used experession for Y class pax when I worked for the world's favourite (as an engineer) and if people take offence that you have my apology. However, it does appear that certainly some of the budget airlines don't always show as much respect to pax as might be expected by the fare-paying public. I have witnessed first-hand the antics that have appeared on the TV for pax when facing some of the customer-service staff for what can only be described as trivial issues. In the case of this Easy flight, I saw no evidence at all of poor customer relations by any of the staff and would commend them for trying to defuse a difficult situation. Whether the Captian should exit the cockpit in flight wasn't the basis of my OP - it was to discuss if the actions of some of the cheap airlines leads to more of the pax disruption that I witnessed.

[mini]

Captain was wrong. He was doing a Corporals job. He could have been decked and incapacitated - poor risk assessment. Sounds like an ego trip.

CC are trained to deal with such incidents. Highly likely Pax would have "offered a helping hand" should things have got untidy.

Just my tuppence.

[marble bar]

Has there ever been a case where an airline has pursued a passenger for the cost of a diversion?

[fmgc]

The Captain has the authority to do whenever he wants in an emergency, including deviating from any SOP´s he deems necessary to ensure the safety of the aircraft and its passengers. Period.

I hate this being used as an excuse for sloppy adherence to SOP.

For one to apply this rule and deviate from a major SOP the alternative consequence has to be utterly dire and I think too many pilots these days use it as an excuse to be sloppy.

In 15 years of flying airliners I have never come across an occasion where I have needed to deviate from SOP. There have been a few occasions in the Simulator but the alternative was the aeroplane burning up in flight.

BTW I like to think that I still manage to engender a relaxed atmosphere on the FD.

[BALLSOUT]

The Captain has the authority to do whenever he wants in an emergency, including deviating from any SOP´s he deems necessary to ensure the safety of the aircraft and its passengers. Period. Note, to ensure the safety of the aircraft and passengers, not to endanger them.
If you deviate from SOP's you need a good reason, ie to save life, not to risk it!

[Rail Engineer]

Wiggylamp
Whether the Captian should exit the cockpit in flight wasn't the basis of my OP - it was to discuss if the actions of some of the cheap airlines leads to more of the pax disruption that I witnessed. Regrettably the answer to that has to be yes.

At the risk of being accused of arrogance or being pompous, etc, etc, the cheap airlines are targetting a market that would not ordinarily fly. They are also operating a pricing policy that is not understood by those at the lower end of the social scale, who if they can read, can only read poorly, and inevitably do not read the terms and conditions. They therefore turn up and place themselves in conflict situations even before they checkin simply because they have not bothered to get all the facts in a row.

You can see this regularly on the various TV programmes. Because they do not have the disposal income to pay further money their only route is their natural route of agressiveness.

The cheap airlines in some cases do appear to go out of their way to appease these people which broadcasts the idea that if you are aggressive enough then the staff will give you what we want, indeed I have actually seen at least one person boasting that they had been allowed to transfer to another flight simply because they had in their words "caused a scene and shouted loud enough".

Many of these people are the ones who can be found lying in gutters and on street corners completely out of their minds on cheap lager, and doubtless covered in blood following some fight or other with the locals.

As long as airlines derive the majority of income from this level of society they will continue to attract and have to deal with such problem individuals, and I feel for the staff who have this tedious job.

That is not to say that obnoxious passengers from higher levels of society do not exist, they clearly do and in many cases it is those with little power or control over their lives who are travelling on Company tickets, who know that they have an opportunity to be in the driving seat so to speak. These people really are a pain in the arse.

Prior to going into engineering I spent many years on frontline operations in BR. The really powerful and important people in First Class for example were the nicest people you would meet, the most obnoxious were those in junior positions who had gained a little power for the day.

From my experiences in flying I am sure the same applies in avitation as well.

[gcal]

I've used EZY many times and always found them to be professional.
Yes you have to hang around a bit but a recent aircraft change at LGW was handled efficiently with a total delay of 20 mins.
Some of the cabin crew are young but not all and at least they do not bombard you with PAs.
All and any airline could do with sharpening up service skills! Easy makes a pretty good fist of it by and large.
On a descending scale I reckon they come just under BA; sort out the herding, where it exists, and they'll have it sorted.

[kriskross]

I remember a possibly appocryphal tale from an airline I worked for then, some thirty plus years ago, on a UK to somewhere sunny charter flight, when a fracas broke out among a couple of passengers in the back.

A friend of mine, also an F.O. as gentle as a lamb, but very large in stature,
got up out of his seat, picked up the crash axe and slowly and impressively strolled down the aisle with it in his hand.

The cabin went absolutely silent, and the troublemakers retook there seats and behaved beautifully from then on.

At that base and Company, the crash axe was always referred to from then on as 'Hugecroft's hatchet'. Now that would never ever happen these days would it??! Sadly, he is no longer with us.

[Heathrow Harry]

always remember a few years back when you had to get a tourist visa in advance for Oman

the Sultan (God Bless Him) having served in/with the British Army is only in favour of "discerning tourism"

I remember that if you were Swiss you paid USD10 but it was USD 70 for the Brits...

[Cameronian]

I fly a fair amount as a passenger only but do not presume to comment on what whichever member of the cockpit crew may have done in the OP's case - I know my place! However, even though flying clearly falls more into the "Public Transport" model now than it did in my youth and is beset, justifiably or not, with the pre-boarding hassle of which others here make so much, I am with gcal. In my experience the low cost model is almost always unfairly criticised, perhaps sometimes by those who have an axe to grind, or maybe they don't pay their own full fares. I almost exclusively fly with the orange line and do so many, many times each year - as do my family. I am continually delighted by their efficiency, good sense and the personal charm of their staff. My daughter had to change aircraft last week at Stansted due to mechanical failure. She had the common sense to be delighted to be given the opportunity to use an aircraft which met requirements. There was an aircraft ready and a replacement crew to hand. Nothing got lost and she arrived here about ninety minutes late. Given that they spent a little time trying to fix things at first, I don't see how one could expect better. She tells me that, after a public groan, the passengers went with the flow with no fuss at all.

Mind you, I don't feel that I'm treated like cattle with that airline so perhaps nobody felt resentful in the slightest. I like low cost flying and my experience has been that I always get rather more than it says on the tin. New rules seem to have more or less sorted my only quibble which was with the inflation of the ticket price as one finalises the booking process but then I knew to expect it anyway.

I know I have strayed from the OP's line of thinking and I apologise for that but nearly everyone else already had wandered before me! I have no link to the airline other than as a perfectly happy frequent passenger - just like gcal, I suspect.

[gcal]

Easy, Vueling and BA are the three airlines I use most. They each have their own character and pros' and cons'.
I tend to fly out of London and Barcelona mostly and in all honesty have had very little reason to complain. Plus, though I have had indifferent flights I've rarely had a bad one. What problems there have been have generally been sorted out pretty efficiently.
Yes some of the ground staff/cabin crew, and pilots look not old enough to be out by themselves! But then time marches on.
I get a reasonable product for a decent price.

[Heathrow Harry]

if you encourage passengers to drink for a couple of hours before boarding what do you expect?

Cut check-in times and return airports to places to fly from rather than shop and drink in.................

Worst lot I ever saw was an icelandair flight at Schipol - security had fenced the whole flight in around one bar and everyone over the age of 14 was flinging it down like lunatics. the security guy told me "they're allways like this - no trouble but completely out of their minds by the time the plane leaves..........."

[gcal]

if you encourage passengers to drink for a couple of hours before boarding what do you expect?

Cut check-in times and return airports to places to fly from rather than shop and drink in.................

Worst lot I ever saw was an icelandair flight at Schipol - security had fenced the whole flight in around one bar and everyone over the age of 14 was flinging it down like lunatics. the security guy told me "they're allways like this - no trouble but completely out of their minds by the time the plane leaves..........."

Good points!
I've still got the itinerary from a school trip many moons ago. A coach to leave deepest south London at 0730 for a 0930 flight from LHR.
Ok there was less traffic and less pax flying but the time scale would be almost unbelievable these days.
At AMS they generally do security by flight at the gate, there being no central security area. Which is a very different set up to that generally found in the UK and elsewhere.

[Capt Pit Bull]

Obviously there are a number of reasons why passangers act in a disruptive manner and a number of threats they represent.

The reality is that in many cases it takes about a 10 seconds intevention by the Captain to convert the trouble maker into a meek&mild non event. In the pre 9-11 days it would have been viewed as a very standard way of dealing with the problem.

Of course this doesn't detract from the current situation where we have to assume it's a decoy for a greater threat so flight crew should no be leaving the flight deck in these circumstance. But those that are saying the Capt will have no better ability than the cabin crew to control trouble makers are pretty ignorant.

[A Yak From Yemen]

I ain't gettin outa my seat. There are specific procedures for disruptive pax at the Aussie company I fly for and all flight and cabin crew are fully aware of and trained for. Unfortunately LCC around the world attract these morons but excessive alcohol or drugs in an aircraft is not a good combination and should not be tolerated. The law in general needs to be tougher.

[KOLDO]

The last thing a pilot should do is to leave the flight deck to fix an issue like an unruly pax., not just for security reasons, but to avoid a total loss of authority. Period.

[blablabla]

I am there to operate the Aircraft in a safe manner according to all the rules of aviation...airspace and sops and manufacturers guidelines etc etc etc....there is no way in the world I would ever come out of the flight deck to attend to any situation in the cabin.....there are all the normal procedures in place and CC training and if after all this the situation cannot still be contained/resolved depending on the situation I will divert but going out of the flight deck in flight is certainly not something any pilot should be doing...and if i was a pax on this flight its certainly not something i would even want to see.

CC can try and resolve etc using their training and sops and procedures..they can give the pax the written warning from the captain explaining that if they don't comply the aircraft maybe diverted or they may be arrested on arrival. CC can ask for assistance from pax if required....and if i was to intervene at all the only thing I would do is from the flight deck make a PA to remind the pax that this is the Captain speaking and if you dont comply with the instructions of the CC then I will have no choice but to divert immediately and hand the matter over to the airport police etc...but opening that door is 100% never going to be an option...it might be a ploy with a group of 4 terrorist onboard...one play the fool and lets hope the Captain comes out as the others are seated in row 1 ready to charge the door...anyone leaving the flight deck should give their licence back.

[stepwilk]

those that are saying the Capt will have no better ability than the cabin crew to control trouble makers are pretty ignorant.

No matter how big, tough and pit bull-y you are, there is always somebody bigger, tougher and more pit bull-y than you are. And there you are, flat on your back in the aisle with a broken nose and fewer teeth than you had a moment ago.

[Dan Winterland]

Often, a meaasage from the Captain relayed through the CC is enough. When one pax was causing trouble, I sent a message back that we would divert if the trouble continued and as the nearest airport was Irkutsk, the passenger could explain his actions to the Russian Police on landing. The thought of a Siberian prison was enough to make him calm down.

[Nightstop]

I work for a company where Pilot presence outside of the flightdeck is actually rewarded and encouraged, in effect, by winning the accolade of being a "customer orientated people person"...you can even win a trip to Disney, if enough of your pals nominate you! Draw your own conclusions......

[de facto]

Enjoy Mickey Mouse then:suspect:

[Capt Pit Bull]

those that are saying the Capt will have no better ability than the cabin crew to control trouble makers are pretty ignorant.

No matter how big, tough and pit bull-y you are, there is always somebody bigger, tougher and more pit bull-y than you are. And there you are, flat on your back in the aisle with a broken nose and fewer teeth than you had a moment ago.

Yeah.... try not to let your preconceptions get the better of you. I'm not talking about going back down there to physically intimidate someone. The simple facts are that as the Skipper you have an automatic authority that most people will respond too. Usually it's people being loud, awkward and uncooperative. Your simple presence is enough to make them recognise they've stepped over the line and to behave. However if your cabin crew advise you that someone is being *physically* agressive then that's a different matter; steer well clear. A simple matter of communication and using your brain.

Actual example: Single mother insists on repeatedly letting 2 year old toddle around the Cabin (during taxi, initial climb and a patch of turnbulence. Cabin crew return the toddler and tell mother to secure it. As soon as they leave her, mother releases the kid again. Crew advise me. I assess zero physical threat but real risk of unsecure cabin during approach/landing so I amble back and have a quite, polite but very firm word. Problem solved.

Also note that I am writing in the pre 9-11 context. As I very clearly stated (but you chose not to quote) in these days the risk of it being a decoy means that no-one should leave the flight deck during a disruptive passenger incident. The industry has quite correctly responded with SOP changes and warning letters for handout etc.

[kick the tires]

I work for a company where Pilot presence outside of the flightdeck is actually rewarded and encouraged, in effect, by winning the accolade of being a "customer orientated people person"...you can even win a trip to Disney, if enough of your pals nominate you! Draw your own conclusions......

but only if you fly faster than anyone else :rolleyes:

[Ivor Fynn]

KTT,

Harsh but fair, it does make it a bit of a joke:ok:

[A-3TWENTY]

I had always the opinion that a Capt. should never leave the cockpit. Never.

The cabin crew has a Purser who is the person trained and entitled by the company to access these situations.

If the purser is having problems to dela with it , and I`m still on ground pax stays on ground. I don`t even see him. Just call the police. And they take him/her.

Once , bound to S.Tomé and Prince , one became violent , I asked two mail flight attendants to retain him.He finished the flight laid in the aft galley.Police upon arrival.

Another flight. Flight was delayed 20 hours.A group of about 10 guys entered shouting and saying they would be a motin on board. Purser to came to cockpit. I told her to tell them to sit down, shut up and behave as everyone else. They refused and kept disturbing. All group stayed on ground. Never saw them.

Cabin crew are trained to deal these situations. If they are not managed to do it , it means the situation has exceded the reasonability.Time to call police.

The Capt has nothing to do in the cabin.

[ElectroVlasic]

A friend of mine, also an F.O. as gentle as a lamb, but very large in stature,
got up out of his seat, picked up the crash axe and slowly and impressively strolled down the aisle with it in his hand.

The cabin went absolutely silent, and the troublemakers retook there seats and behaved beautifully from then on.

Said technique worked well in the neighborhood bar I frequented in my teens years ago, except it was a baseball bat as opposed to a crash axe. It was kept in full view but out of reach of the patrons, and everyone knew that the keeper knew how to use it.

[Load Toad]

Such great heroic acts go totally tits up with terrible consequences when the bluff is called.

[Firestorm]

As I was not there I cannot be certain, but consider this. I am prepared for a bit of flak and abuse for this post.

The Captain should not leave the flight deck for all sorts of good reasons, but the modern low coat airline doesn't always select the best leaders for cabin crew. Locos are well staffed by eager young people, but they are not necessarily blessed with age, maturity and experience of dealing with stroppy, argumentative passengers. It may be that the Captain was having to make up
for the inability of the cabin crew to deal with the situation, or the inexperience or the youth, and immaturity of an otherwise able stewardess.

The cheap availability of high volume air transport has not only lowered the "quality" of the passengers.

[gcal]

Fair points but it should be remembered that it is not only the low cost carriers that are employing young people with little track record of people contact.
A certain large airline employs cabin crew supervisors straight off the street, and it shows!

[SouBE]

Out of interest, perhaps you should take a look at passenger feedback on 'Skytrax' and I think you'll find that easyJet score well and above many other legacy (including British) airlines. Perhaps that might give you some indication of how (well) easyJet do treat their 'cattle'. I prefer to call them customers.

[Jay Doubleyou]

Point taken about passenger feedback, but the feedback and maybe the passengers themselves are "Self selecting". The sort of people who react positively about LOCOs are probably the sort who want what the LOCO provides, not just cheap, but the matter of cabin baggage, "unwanted" refreshments etc. and not so worried about ticket inter-availability, through ticketing, baggage charges etc. Of course such people are going to give "positive" feedback.
When people ask me my age, I say "Old enough to remember when Air Travel was comfortable", perhaps there is a whole new generation who don't realize how comfortable and pleasant travel by air was forty years ago, and could be again without inflating everyone to first class or business fares.
The Rip-off nature of LOCO ticket web sites has even been noticed by Normal (i.e. non-aviation) people are prepared to believe that these carriers will, eventually, even charge for the Loo!

[gcal]

I don't count EZY as a LOCO carrier and base this on the impression I get when travelling with them. It is a truly professional set up, and if let down at all, is by the inexperience of some, only some not all, of those it employs on the ground.
The crews are by no means all youngsters either and by and large their level of professionalism is equal to some longer established airlines. I'm particular impressed by the easy to follow and precise safety briefings.
The aircraft are new or nearly new and the room available on a short flight is sufficient (anyone remember Channel Airways or Skyways and the legroom available? which was about 40 years ago or so).
I've never experienced disruptive pax on my very regular flights on my usual commute route LGW/BCN (No longer served by BA) and rarely on any flight I've ever taken.
The worst example I can quote of many years of flying was some years ago in Business Class on AA LHR/MIA and the culprits were a group of, wait for it, doctors! Who were plastered before they got on! Business class or whatever an individual company may call it would I suspect feature in any airlines list of possibilities for disruption. Plus, I also suspect that those between the ages of 30 and 50 most likely to be the culprits, if my own experience is anything to go by. Given the space and lack of 'herding' these pax enjoy would seem to go against the general perception of what may cause disruptive behaviour.
I refuse to travel on Ryanair and for the following reason. This is because the owner of the airline publicly treats his employees with contempt. In my eyes in any case.
I don't give my money to those kinds of companies irrespective of the price.

[jez d]

I also suspect that those between the ages of 30 and 50 most likely to be the culprits, if my own experience is anything to go by

I take it your 'road to Damascus' occured on your 51st Birthday ? :E

[WW4995Heavy]

I was recently on EZY2397 HESH to EGGW. The Pilot left the cockpit on multiple occasions during that flight.

Admittedly the first incident was on the ground when just before take as we are rolling on to the runway a child was violently sick. It emerged that the child had gastroenteritis and had done for 7 days. This poor lad was so ill I cannot believe he was allowed to board in the first place.

However, half way through the flight the FO and Pilot both left the cockpit (at different times) to talk to the cabin crew at the front of the aircraft.....yet there are many on this thread saying it's not allowed? What about toilet breaks etc?

[gcal]

I take it your 'road to Damascus' occured on your 51st Birthday ? :E

Purely an observation and in the incident I witnessed most of the miscreants were female.
It's not just the poor wots chavs!

[Sunnyjohn]

I think you might have misconstrued that post - as I read it, he was referring to the incident of the child, not of the Pilot leaving the flight deck.

[etrang]

One of the pilots left the flight deck when 'rolling onto the runway', did they?

No, that's when the child was sick.

[720B]

Slightly off topic I guess but on recent flights UK-Germany I was surprised to see the cabin crew entering the flight deck during the flight to serve drinks. The lady (in this case) could have been easily overpowered by people who had preselected seats at the front of the aircraft. I don't see the point of locking the cockpit door if it is going to be opened during the flight.....

[fmgc]

I was surprised to see the cabin crew entering the flight deck during the flight to serve drinks

Seriously????? :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[720B]

So..is there any point in locking the door to the cockpit or not ????

[PT6A]

This is a very simple fix if they cough up the money... Install a secondary barrier.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

[QUOTE]The lady (in this case) could have been easily overpowered by people who had preselected seats at the front of the aircraft. I don't see the point of locking the cockpit door if it is going to be opened during the flight...../QUOTE]

You were under the impression we just pee'd our pants on those 4 hour plus flights?! Have a think about it.

[fmgc]

So..is there any point in locking the door to the cockpit or not ????

Of course there is otherwise we would have no control at all over who comes and goes!

And as for the cabin crew entering they have procedures to minimise the chance of being overpowered which probably are best not advertised on here.

If cabin crew did not enter the flight deck flights would be a lot more dangerous due to the breakdown in CRM.

[720B]

Look, you seem to be missing my point which is that the whole idea of locking the cockpit door is flawed for the very reasons that you state - that access or exit is required from time to time - understandably. A solution to serving food / drinks could be a lockable hatch in the cockpit door - a solution to the 'comfort breaks' situation is more difficult but could be solved by the secondary 'air lock' door as suggested by PT6A, though this might be difficult to physically install. I'm not having a go at you fine folks - I just want everyone to fly in safety and as I saw something that I thought compromised that, thought it appropriate to raise the issue.

[gcal]

Oh ye gods!
You cannot imprison well paid (or that is the rumour) well trained and adept personnel in a tiny room; that in most modern societies is called imprisonment.
Had it occurred that one of the brief moments of respite for these professionals is actually meeting the, for the most part 99.9999999 percent (and probably more) perfectly innocent people who pay their salaries, is something of a pleasure.

[Alexander de Meerkat]

It is easyJet policy that the Captain must not leave the Flight Deck in flight except for physical needs. I have myself, during a training flight where we had a large First Officer on the jump seat, sent him out to warn a passenger about his behaviour. I then had the passenger arrested on arrival for continuing to be a yob. In 8 years of working at easyJet that is only one of 3 passenger behaviour incidents that resulted in the police being involved - hardly a routine occurrence.

[720B]

gcal...unfortunately there is the 0.111111 percent that resulted in 3000+ deaths in 2001. I really don't understand why you and others are burying your heads in the sand over this issue..there is a flaw in the system here and I don't understand why you don't acknowledge the fact..I'm not criticizing air crew in any way..just pointing out what I consider to be a potential problem for air safety. As for cabin crew being able to 'minimize the chance of being overpowered' - I'm afraid I don't feel reassured at all.

[really not]

720B, get the bus then. You have the choice, if you don't like it no-one forces you to fly. Instead of misusing the loss of those aircraft, perhaps you might want to look at the events that actually took place and how security, screening and processes have changed since then. I would even suggest that if anyone made a run at the flight deck, the other 100-odd passengers would get in the way very quickly - just look at the event in the USA yesterday.

[Heathrow Harry]

On the original subject that well known celeb Gavin Henson was apparently drinking on a BMI flight last week before his "inappropriate behaviour"

Who let these guys on?

Who serves someone booze on a breakfast flight (outside of Finland)?

[10W]

It was a great gesture of solidarity by FlyBe to ban Gavin Henson from travelling with them for 6 months, if he was on a BMI flight ;)

[gcal]

Cars would be almost totally safe if they didn't move; aircraft just so if they didn't fly.
You cannot have totally safe transport of any kind.
My points, and those of others, have been that this type of behaviour, disruptive behaviour, is rare indeed.
On topic on my frequent flights with EZY I've not seen anything to cause me concern.