Some questions for the professionals

[rich_g85]

Hello,
Wonder if I might trouble you for answers to a few questions arising from my own imagination and curiosity. I'm a low-hours PPL so please forgive me! All the questions are in the context of a 'bucket and spade' commercial 737 or similar operation.

At airports where the ground staff may not speak English very well (or even at all) how do you convey how much fuel you would like loaded (and the correct units) without misunderstanding?

Do airline pilots have the equivalent of 'FREDA' checks performed every 10/15 minutes? I realise they won't be 'aligning DI to the compass', but hopefully you understand what I mean. Perhaps some checks to cross reference fuel state/position/etc.

Say, for some reason, the navigation display/magenta line suddenly disappeared, would the flight crew have the necessary resources (ie charts and so on) in the cockpit to continue navigating 'manually' to the destination? It may be the case that it's not possible for this to happen because of redundancy, backup systems etc, I don't know - I've only ever flown Pipers and Robins :-)

Imagine in the descent, coming down through the clouds the handling pilot becomes unresponsive, maybe drowsy and is therefore said to be incapacitated. How does the other pilot A) realise this if the cockpit is sterile and there isn't a conversation happening and B) what happens next? Does he still say out loud 'I have control' and just carry on flying? I realise not all situations are the same, I'm just curious to know how it *might* be handled. Much respect for the guy (or girl) who then has to carry on and land the thing on their own, the workload must increase massively. Is this something you practice in the sim?

How many 'memory' checklists are there for flying something like a 737? I imagine there must be a lot.. and you have to be able to recite them all without hesitation?

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to read and maybe answer any of those. Hopefully they make sense. Like I say I've never been P1 in anything bigger than a PA28 but I have nothing but respect and admiration for those that fly for the airlines.

[Denti]

You probably do more real flying than most airline pilots then :)

In regards to foreign language and fueling. It depends really. In many cases it is enough to tell the ramp agent who then translates to the fuel truck driver. Sometimes i prepare a little paper with the tank gauges on and the amount of fuel i want in every one. We used to have a form for that, but thats been gone because it cost too much money. And then there are those annoying airports where fuel truck drivers refuse to operate the tank valves, in that case i do it myself and never have to tell the fueler how much i want.

FREDA is an acronym i haven't come across. However we do have to do a fuel cross check at least once an hour. Navigation is being checked continously by the aircraft itself. It tells us of course the RNP for the current condition and the corresponding ANP (Actual Navigation Performance). On newer planes its even easier with navigation performance scales on the PFD. We do have maps on the flightdeck, however those are purely electronic on the Electronic FlightBag. They can be used for crosschecks, but it is not being trained and checked anymore. We can still use old school VOR/ADF navigation if needed.

Pilot incapacition is pretty difficult to begin with. In a normal flight even with a silent incapacitation at some point the other pilot should realize that there is no reaction to ATC instructions, challenges etc. Training is usually kinda sterile, in that you get a hint that the other one is incapacitated. But i guess there are better ones to explain all that.

[MarkerInbound]

Large planes are getting away from massive lists of memory items on checklists. For a while at an old job we had no memory items, just "Fly the plane, silence the bell, read the checklist." (There were a couple steps to be accomplished by "immediate recall" for an aborted start and the F/E's whole purpose in life was to "protect essential.") On the 744 we have 5 checklists with memory items, the longest has 4 steps to done by memory, a couple just have one.

[Denti]

Ah, forgot that part. The 737 is considered one of the planes with the most memory items. Especially when compared to the airbus. We have currently 15 non normal lists with memory items, 4 of those in chapter 15 (Warning Systems) which deal with reaction to various warning. Many of those only 1 to 3 steps. But a few have more, the maximum is 7 in the Emergency Descent Checklist, which is usually the second checklist with memory items, the first (Cabin Altitude Warning or Rapid Depressurization) has a memory item which leads to this checklist, all in all a chain of 11 steps with decision steps.

[rich_g85]

Thank you both for replying. Another question which occurred to me is, there is a requirement for all flights crossing an FIR boundary to have a copy of the interception procedures 'on board'. How is this acheived in practice in the commercial world? Do all pilots keep a copy in their flight bag, or will there be a copy stored 'somewhere' in the flight deck with the other aircraft-specific documents?

[wiggy]

Yes, most airliners carry a library, either in paper or increasingly in electronic form, possibly a couple of dozen documents in total - checklists, load and balance manuals, flying manual :uhoh: technical manuals etc........ Amongst these will be a few books ( in our case five, each the size of a large paperback) covering the likes of ATC frequencies, procedures and rules for every country - whilst interception procedures (at least the initial phase) is pretty much standard across the world there are some significant national differences, so the general interception procedures and any differences from standard are detailed in these national section of the appropriate book.

[99jolegg]

At airports where the ground staff may not speak English very well (or even at all) how do you convey how much fuel you would like loaded (and the correct units) without misunderstanding?

We use a plastic flip chart (about A5 size) that wedges nicely in the window on the FO's side so the refueller can see how much fuel we need.

Do airline pilots have the equivalent of 'FREDA' checks performed every 10/15 minutes? I realise they won't be 'aligning DI to the compass', but hopefully you understand what I mean. Perhaps some checks to cross reference fuel state/position/etc.

We don't use any acronyms for cruise checks but we're required to do a time / fuel calculation every 30 minutes. We check for a fuel leak every 30 minutes mentally, and every 60 minutes on paper. No navigational checks other than checking whether we're on time passing a waypoint.

Say, for some reason, the navigation display/magenta line suddenly disappeared, would the flight crew have the necessary resources (ie charts and so on) in the cockpit to continue navigating 'manually' to the destination? It may be the case that it's not possible for this to happen because of redundancy, backup systems etc, I don't know - I've only ever flown Pipers and Robins :-)

We have high / low altitude enroute Jeppeson charts which have all of the waypoints on the airways that we might use. So if you find the relevant chart, cross check the waypoints against the flight plan you could theoretically fly like that...depending on what the failure is. Plus you can tune nav aids etc or get a radar heading.

Imagine in the descent, coming down through the clouds the handling pilot becomes unresponsive, maybe drowsy and is therefore said to be incapacitated. How does the other pilot A) realise this if the cockpit is sterile and there isn't a conversation happening and B) what happens next? Does he still say out loud 'I have control' and just carry on flying? I realise not all situations are the same, I'm just curious to know how it *might* be handled. Much respect for the guy (or girl) who then has to carry on and land the thing on their own, the workload must increase massively. Is this something you practice in the sim?

It's one of those things that all depends. In the descent you're rarely cleared from cruise down to an altitude on the QNH so there's various opportunities that the handling pilot would need to reach for the MCP / FCU (autopilot panel) - as pilot monitoring / pilot not flying, you'd soon realise when the clearance you read back to ATC isn't being actioned. Plus, in day time, I think it'd be fairly obvious if the other one was unconscious - it'd probably catch your eye.

Other than that, pilot flying will usually be fiddling about with something or other in the descent i.e. range scale, looking at the flight plan, weather radar / terrain, commenting on something. Lots of opportunity to spot it, in this scenario anyway.

How many 'memory' checklists are there for flying something like a 737? I imagine there must be a lot.. and you have to be able to recite them all without hesitation?

No idea about the 737, but we do the cockpit preparation scan, after engine start scan, before take off scan, cruise scan, landing scan, after landing scan, engine shut down scan and securing the aircraft scan all from memory. The important bits of those are then immediately backed up by a checklist. Yes you must memorise the flow patterns for your role (PF/PNF/CM1/CM2) but the checklist serves as a backup in case something gets forgotten.

there is a requirement for all flights crossing an FIR boundary to have a copy of the interception procedures 'on board'. How is this acheived in practice in the commercial world? Do all pilots keep a copy in their flight bag, or will there be a copy stored 'somewhere' in the flight deck with the other aircraft-specific documents?

We have a bag of Jeppeson folders (4 of them) which have all of that sort of info in, amongst other things. The folders belong to the aircraft and are updated by the airline. There is no requirement for us to bring anything like that with us, but you may find the odd person that does.

That's how we do it, but the above is subject to variation dependent on airline, aircraft and country!

[rich_g85]

wiggy, 99jolegg - thank you both for your interesting and insightful answers to what could be some of the oddest questions ever asked by a PPL holder on Pprune!

[Di_Vosh]

From my POV (regional Dash8 FO in Oz)

Obviously, language differences in Australia aren't an issue.

By 'FREDA', I'm assuming you're talking about what we in Australia call 'CLEAROF' checks (Compass, Log, Engine, Altitude, Radio, Orientation (i.e. nav), Fuel). As others have said, we generally check the engine gauges as a habit every 15-20 min or so. We're not required to keep a nav log, but we are required to check our expected vs. actual time over waypoints as we pass them. In regional flying you get to know the radio frequencies and roughly where you get handed over to the next controller.

If we lost our magenta line (has happened to me) we still have other instruments to maintain our navigation. If we lose our GPS (or FMS) we still can still navigate with reference to land based aids (VOR and NDB) but would advise ATC of the fact, as our navigation tolerance would degrade.


Regarding checklists: We have 'Geographics', 'Normal checklists' 'Recall items' and 'Reference items'.

Geograhpics refers to the sequence of activities that each pilot performs at various stages of flight and on the ground. They generally follow an ergonomic flow and are memorised (you also develop a muscle memory for each one). At the completion of a sequence of Geographics there is usually a 'Normal checklist'. For our airline we use stand-up checklists on top of the glareshield. Any Normal checklist cannot be performed by memory.

We also have a QRH (Quick Reference Handbook) for abnormals and emergencies. The QRH contains a large number of checklists, depending on what has gone wrong. Some of the checklists are considered 'Recalls', some are 'Reference' and some have a mixture of both (Recall then reference).

As the name suggests, you must be able to perform the Recall items from memory. Reference items can be read from the checklist. Recall checklist items are considered to be the vital actions that must take place as soon as practical to ensure the best chance of safely continuing. In the Dash, there are around 15 of Recall checklists. Reference checklists, while still important, are not so urgent and there is time for the PM to get the QRH out, look up the problem, and then action the checklist.


To give some examples:
After both engines have started, the Captain and FO have their 'After start' geographics, where both pilots perform configuration changes to the aircraft (e.g. Flaps 5) as well as checking performance items (e.g. confirm that the Transponder is ON/ALT). On completion of the After start geographics, the After start checklist is read. This wont check every single thing that you've done during the geographics, but will confirm every vital action.

If, during flight, an engine shuts down, there will be Recall items required to be performed by the PM. In this case, the Recall items are there to secure the engine. After the Recall items are complete, the PF will ask the PM to perform the Engine fail/fire shutdown checklist from the QRH. The PM gets to the checklist and confirms that the Recall items have been done correctly and then continues on with the Reference items. In this case the reference items refer to considerations such as landing distance factors with one engine inoperative, fuel transfer, etc.


Even during sterile cockpits you'd have a pretty good idea if the other pilot became incapacitated. As the other posters mentioned, there is still activity and any change to the normal "ebb and flow" of activity is noticed pretty quickly. (Besides, it's not uncommon to continue normal conversations during the bulk of the sterile cockpit phase :eek: )

Hope that helps.

P.S. These were great questions, btw, and I get the feeling you're putting yourself down when you're asking them. We were all low-hours PPL holders at one time. :ok:

[framer]

Boy they're some good questions for someone who has not flown in an airline alright!
I haven't got much to add to what the others have said except that often pilots will have their ownequivilent of FREDA checks that aren't written down in the Airlines SOP's and apply to most airliners. When I first started flying the 737 a training Captain told me to mentally run a check every few minutes that was TRRAILS FP,
Thrust, Rudder,Radar, Anti-ice, Ignition, Lights, Seatbelts, Fuel, Pressurization.
When I write it down like that it seems a bit unweildly, but regardless, I took his advice and started to do that as a new F/O doing short sectors on older 300's and 400's. It quickly became a sort of scan pattern that I did and didn't really have to think about because of repitition and I would often find myself picking up a missed switch earlier than I otherwise would have. I remember picking up that the pressurization system was keeping the aircraft 'on the ground' and the diff was increasing rapidly one time soon after we got airborne in Singapore. Over the years I've modified it slightly to include Traffic (ie TCAS) and Transition in order to ensure I haven't forgotten either of those things. I'm on a different type now but still use it. I'm not suggesting that it's a particularly good acronym (I don't even think of it as an acronym now), just that many airline pilots will do an equivilent of FREDA after takeoff and every few minutes for the rest f the flight.
Enjoy flying your Pipers, I would like to swap for a day :)

[Discorde]

This book might be useful to you, Rich:

How Airliners Fly


It's also available in Kindle format:

How Airliners Fly
(http://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Airliners-Fly-ebook/dp/B0079Q01O8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1331565203&sr=8-2)