Probably a really stupid question

[piperboy84]

I'm a private pilot(VFR) flying my Maule out off a farm strip here in the glens of Angus. I lived for many years and learned to fly in the US and am now flying here in Scotland, I have this nagging question about which way to turn if in the unfortunate (and extremely unlikely)event I am in a mid-air head on situation. I was trained to fly to the right in this situation. Is this a universal "rule" or is this just in the US where I assume it is the natural reaction based on the side of the road they drive on there. Whereas here in the UK I assume instinct would probably be to turn to the left? Or is there no hard and fast rule?

Any ideas

[Pilot DAR]

Well I'm going to presume that there are "right of way" regulations in the UK, as we have in Canada, and the US. Obvioulsy, they should be adhered to as best as possible. Generally, in Canada "right" is the right answer in terms of who has the right of way, and which way to go in case of head on conflict.

I concede that in a nation where the cars are driven in the other direction on the road, it could bring about this question for a North American trained pilot. I'm sure someone will be along to remind me that it is us in North America and continental Europe who drive on the wrong side, and what is to be done in the UK.

I think that right of way rules are based to some degree on the seat normally occupied by the pilot, and surprise surprise, it seems to be left seat by convention for planes just about the world over - a lot like the cars which are build the right way across;). I would think therefore that the logic of right of way as it related to visibiliy, would be the same in the UK as the US, but know the rules locally.

If you maintain good awareness of what's going on around you, the risk of mid air is happily low. This can be managed with good airmanship.

Fly with good awareness, and worry less....

[India Four Two]

pb84,

This is what you are looking for:

10 When two aircraft are approaching head-on, or approximately so, in the air and there is a danger of collision, each shall alter its course to the right.

CAP 393 Air Navigation: The Order and the Regulations
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf
It's not intuitive when you are learning to fly in a country where driving is on the left. ;)

Just to add to the confusion, the same turn-right rule applies on the ground if you are in a "flying machine", but you turn left to pass another "flying machine" on the ground, whereas in the air you turn right!

PS Not a stupid question. Having learnt to fly in the UK, I thought I knew the rules, but I had a big surprise reading the "on the ground" rules. Who makes up this stuff? Vehicles are supposed to turn left in a head-on situation, flying machines turn right. What happens when a vehicle meets a flying machine head-on?

[Pilot DAR]

What happens when a vehicle meets a flying machine head-on?

A head on!

[India Four Two]

Pilot DAR,

Yes, a rules-assisted collision!

[frontlefthamster]

No, the vehicle must give way (in the UK, Rule 43). The flying machine does not alter its course.

The thing I worry about when I read a post like the OP's is that people come here with their questions, rather than knowing where to go for the authoritative answers...

[WorkingHard]

frontlefthamster - I think most here will know where to go for the answers BUT knowing where to look and finding is a very different scenario. Firstly the "rule book" as it is written by civil servants is so vast that searching in any logical manner is useless. Secondly when you find the required publication then using the search facility will bring such a myriad of possibilities that it is oft necessary to read the damned publication in full. So the sensible pilot will ask for guidance here because, as with most things in life, someone has been there before and can offer a little help as is the way with PPRUNE.

[foxmoth]

but I had a big surprise reading the "on the ground" rules. Who makes up this stuff?

Not really that daft, if you imagine on a taxiway you are essentially taxiing on the RH side, so to overtake OR pass opposite you go onto the "dead" side of the taxiway. In practice most people taxi in the middle and there is very little overtaking, but if, for example, someone had a problem and needed to stop they should pull to the right, thus allowing both opposite direction and following traffic to pass correctly.:ok:

[Talkdownman]

Whereas here in the UK I assume instinct would probably be to turn to the left?
An interesting observation. On a couple of occasions as an FI but passenger touring with experienced PPLs I noticed that, in head-on situations, they turned the wrong way. Therefore, on biennial training flights, I incorporated a simulated (hopefully!) situation where, on the way out to the 'local flying area', the (experienced) trainee is faced with 'an opposite direction aircraft less than 10 seconds away'. I was staggered to find that a disturbingly large proportion turned the wrong way. The realisation on their faces was priceless! These British PPLs included some private owners with many hundreds of hours. They were all very experienced drivers and I put it down to the fact that here in the UK we drive on the left and that that 'instinct' influences survival.

[peterh337]

There is ambiguity in practice, if the two aircraft are well separated but apparently head-on, if their tracks are such that a turn to the left is more appropriate.

Obviously this won't be very good if they both do it, but in practice, invariably, one of them spots the other long before the other one spots the first one.

In an imminent head-on you should turn to the right.

[welkyboy]

The Rules of the Air were derived from the Rules of Shipping, which were dreamt up well before cars were invented......

[TheiC]

I think most here will know where to go for the answers BUT knowing where to look and finding is a very different scenario. Firstly the "rule book" as it is written by civil servants is so vast that searching in any logical manner is useless.

It took me one minute and ten seconds to google 'air navigation order', download the document, and do a text search for 'right of way'. The sixth mouse click found 'Right of way on the ground', Rule 42, which is immediately followed by Rule 43...

[Heston]

More than a minute! Six mouse clicks! The T W I T T E R generation has an attention span of 15 seconds - there's no chance of anyone under the age of 25 finding that stuff :)

I seem to recall reading that most pilots turn right instinctively and this knowledge was used by fighter pilots to anticipate the break turn that the target would make when it realised it was under fire.

Anyway, weren't the rules of the air mostly from the French?

H

ps Interesting that I couldn't type the name of the social network without it appearing as twitter (hence the spaces). So I guess birds must twitter?

[frontlefthamster]

I'm clearly expecting far too much from someone who is, after all, only licensed to be pilot in command of an aeroplane - hardly any responsibility at all... :rolleyes:

Peter... (oh dear, here we go again)...

When would it be 'more appropriate' to act against the rules of the air? Are you aware that if you did so, you would be assuming responsibility for any consequences?

I must comment, though, that the maritime world is much better not only at teaching the rules but standardising knowledge of their application. Carrying that knowledge across, I would say that the way to view the rules of the air concerning collision avoidance is always to assume that a risk of collision will be believed to exist by the pilot of the other aircraft, and act accordingly. Thus Peter's dubious advice is, once again, found wanting...

:eek:

[24Carrot]

I seem to recall reading that most pilots turn right instinctively and this knowledge was used by fighter pilots to anticipate the break turn that the target would make when it realised it was under fire.

Derek Robinson describes it in "Piece of Cake", but if I remember correctly it was the other way round - the "natural" break was to the left, so if you were doing the shooting you should anticipate that, and if you were doing the breaking, a break to the right might be a good idea.

[24Carrot]

Re: acting against the rules, surely as PIC your over-riding responsibility is to avoid collision? If the rules help (as they usually will), well that's fine. I can also imagine circumstances (involving cloud, terrain, other aircraft etc) where not following the rules might be a better solution.

Edited to add: unless the collision really is imminent, of course, because then the immediate aircraft-aircraft separation is all you care about.

[Heston]

24Carrot - your memory almost certainly better than mine!

Does the direction of the rotation of the prop come into this? I mean early aircraft turned much more easily one way or the other, depending on the rotation direction.

H

[ShyTorque]

As a pilot you are responsible for the safe conduct of your flight. If you don't know the rules, you shouldn't be flying until you do know. A rumour network is hardly the place to find the answers on something so fundamental as the right of way rules.

Here is a link to the relevant publication. I suggest you read the lot!

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf

[foxmoth]

If you don't know the rules, you shouldn't be flying until you do know

Whilst I agree pilots should know the rules, IMHO this was a bit harsh, most pilots on this forum are not full time professionals and as such are often not as up speed with the rules and regs as maybe they should be, I would much rather someone who is in this position feel that he can ask rather than being driven away by responses such as this and remaining in ignorance.:=

[riverrock83]

I'm still doing PPL training, but one of the exercises that my instructor had me doing was practising "emergency avoidance" - ie - a quick entry, maximum rate turn of 90deg to the right (we practised this as 3 seconds). When I changed to a different aircraft we did it again and it felt considerably different.
Is this something that is regularly practised to make sure we are in the habit of turning right, and something that is practised each time we are getting familiar on a new type?

[ShyTorque]

Harsh or not, I take it the OP did pass the UK Air Law exam?

Sorry, I totally disagree, and so might you, if when out flying one day someone turns the same way as you and you collide....

The Rules of the Air are freely available online these days, for all to read.

I've posted a direct link to the CAP393, so what more do you expect? :=

[dont overfil]

Another poor guy getting a roasting for asking a question.

No, he probably didn't pass a UK air law exam! Nor do most of the visitors to the UK.:ugh:

It so happens that particular rule is the same in FAA land but a lot of rules are not the same.

Perhaps what we need is someone with a well developed sense of humour to make the rules an easier, even entertaining read the way Rod Machado has done for USA students and pilots.

Curling up in bed ar night with the ANO is not my idea of fun.

D.O.

[peterh337]

Peter... (oh dear, here we go again)...

When would it be 'more appropriate' to act against the rules of the air? Are you aware that if you did so, you would be assuming responsibility for any consequences?FLH - I am glad I manage to keep you on your toes, old chum :ok:

Gosh I never knew that following some rule absolved you from responsibility for the consequences. That's really useful to know :ok:

Do you, by any chance, work in ATC?

But seriously, did you actually read what I wrote?

[frontlefthamster]

No, and yes.

[dont overfil]

So... What does the team think?

Two aircraft heading towards each other in each pilots one o'clock. Not quite likely to collide but too close for comfort.

Left or right, climb or decend or pull the BRS?

Is this scenario in the ANO? That question is for those who do take it to bed at night.

D.O.

[foxmoth]

ST,
Harsh or not, I take it the OP did pass the UK Air Law exam?

Yes, I expect he did, and so I presume did you, but with a 100% pass rate? If so, then well done, but I suspect in line with most of us it was not quite that good in which case even YOU do not know ALL the rules and regs 100% and should back off a bit. I suspect it will not be this guy that hits you, but some other pilot who has been put off asking something else by replies like this.:cool:
(Plainly you also never picked up the bit of instructor lore that "THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A STUPID QUESTION")

rr83,
Is this something that is regularly practised to make sure we are in the habit of turning right, and something that is practised each time we are getting familiar on a new type?

You may well do this in your general handling test but then never do it again, most checkouts will not include it and some instructors may do it during a 2 yearly flight with an instructor but once you have your PPL it is really up to you how much you practice things like Emergency Breaks, Stalling, Steep turns, PFLs and other manoeuvres that will keep your flying up to scratch.

[peterh337]

Two aircraft heading towards each other in each pilots one o'clock. Not quite likely to collide but too close for comfort.

Left or right, climb or decend or pull the BRS?

Is this scenario in the ANO? That question is for those who do take it to bed at night.If you are FLH and the flight manual says Pull the BRS when other traffic is in view, then you must pull the BRS

http://reddogreport.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Obama-tongue-in-cheek.jpg

[24Carrot]

Two aircraft heading towards each other in each pilots one o'clock. Not quite likely to collide but too close for comfort.

I wonder what happens in practice?

I have a horrible feeling that, in many cases, neither pilot sees anything and (usually) they do not collide. Neither would be the wiser after the event, so who is to say how often this happens.

Otherwise it is entirely reasonable that one pilot sees the problem first, and takes evasive action, to the right or left, depending on how "one o'clock" it was. Now he is changing shape, showing more wing, and a moving target (sorry, that's definitely the wrong word) in the other's windscreen, and is now much more likely to be seen, and the second pilot can evade in the other direction.

I don't have that many hours, but I have been close to other aircraft at least 3-4 times, that I know of, excluding cases when somebody like Farnborough Radar told me to look out. I don't think the other aircraft saw me in any of those cases. Doubtless there were cases where I was the blind one - I wouldn't know.

[peterh337]

That's exactly right.

Also, is the "one o'clock" relative to your heading, or relative to your track.

There are no hard rules on this, if you see other traffic at a long distance.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Yes, I expect he did, and so I presume did you, but with a 100% pass rate?
Of course not. Who gives a toss on which coloured paper the Chicago Convention was printed?

But self-preservation would suggest bothering to learn the right-of-way rules.

[foxmoth]

But self-preservation would suggest bothering to learn the right-of-way rules

And from what he posts in the OP he DID, but in the USA and was asking if it was the same here, this thread is entitled Probably a really stupid question and as an instructor I say again THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A STUPID QUESTION, if you are not 100% sure as here, for whatever the reason, then ask, and THAT was my point with ST.:}

[mary meagher]

No such thing as a stupid question! absolutely right. two points arise:

1) When instructing potential glider pilots, I like to ask "two gliders head on, what should they do?" various answers are given.
My answer is BOTH turn right. However, in the case of hill soaring, both turn right except the one that can't - because he would hit the hill!

2) Rules of the road: power gives way to gliders (except the power pilot usually isn't looking out, in the real world!) gliders give way to balloons....love that one! And if one of the power pilots is towing up a glider, the other power plane should give way - but don't count on that either!

Junior National Glider competition at Weston on the Green. Properly NOTAM'd
and so forth. I am tugging up a Navy pilot in a ASW 19, observe a twin climbing out of OXFORD "LONDON" AIRPORT heading straight at us.
So I turned right.
The twin turned LEFT!!!!!!
My only option was to dive. The glider on tow hung on, quite sensibly, because if he had come off tow, there would have been two targets for the opposition. When we discussed it in the bar that evening, the Navy pilot said he paid for a 2,000 foot tow, and wanted his money's worth.....cool!

But the same rule applies in the air that applies at sea; if it is bigger than you, it has the right of way!

[Halfbaked_Boy]

frontlefthamster,

When would it be 'more appropriate' to act against the rules of the air?

To preserve life, of course.

[ShyTorque]

Another poor guy getting a roasting for asking a question.
No, he probably didn't pass a UK air law exam! Nor do most of the visitors to the UK.

No, not a roasting, but a reminder of a pilot's responsibilities - learn the rules before you fly. But is the OP a visitor to UK? Somewhat understandable if so, but that's not the impression I got.

Foxmoth, the right of way rules and lights required a 100% pass when I did my exams. The rest of Air Law perhaps isn't quite so important and no-one can be expected to know all of it; I certainly wouldn't claim to do so. However, all pilots should know where to find the answer to right of way rules - this is totally fundamental stuff! Or do some of us consider it optional? Would anyone here consider driving a car in another country without knowing at least the basic rules on right of way?

I agree that there is no such thing as a stupid question (if you are a student). However, even the OP thought it might be - see the title! I did politely resist the initial temptation to simply reply "YES" (but the website doesn't allow one word answers, in any case).

The answer is in CAP393, that I linked to; all anyone has to do is to download it and read it. The right of way rules have always been the same for at least the forty years that I've been flying.

[frontlefthamster]

Peter wrote:

There is ambiguity in practice, if the two aircraft are well separated but apparently head-on, if their tracks are such that a turn to the left is more appropriate.

There's no ambiguity in my aircraft. If the aircraft are well separated, then no risk of collision exists, and the rules are redundant. You have to make this assessment from the point of view of the pessimistic pilot of the other aircraft of course; practically, you must assume that he will decide there is a risk of collision at a very early stage.

Halfbaked Boy wrote:


When would it be 'more appropriate' to act against the rules of the air?

To preserve life, of course.

Quite right. And this should be an extremely unusual occasion; not in any way routine. If you reach this situation, then you have probably missed something important.

Peter wrote:

Also, is the "one o'clock" relative to your heading, or relative to your track.

There are no hard rules on this, if you see other traffic at a long distance.

Yes there are. Rule 9 says: 'when two aircraft are converging in the air at approximately the same altitude, the aircraft which has the other on its right shall give way'.

It does not say: 'which has the other on the right of its track'...

Rule 10 says: 'When two aircraft are approaching head-on, or approximately so, in the air and there is a danger of collision, each shall alter its course to the right'.

Nowhere is track mentioned. Both are in the same air mass. Why would you even think it had anything to do with track?

If you are FLH and the flight manual says Pull the BRS when other traffic is in view, then you must pull the BRS


Well, it doesn't, and I don't know why you present this entirely irrelevant allegation (perhaps it's the best you could come up with ;)), but I'll try to explain (again, since you didn't seem to get it last time): if the flight manual tells you what to do, and you don't do it, then you are entirely and singularly responsible for the consequences. I believe, from your last response on this point, that you didn't understand me...

If you are approaching another aircraft head on, or approximately so, and you turn left, and the other pilot turns right, and there is a collision, it will be your fault. The rule told you to turn right, and you didn't.

The rules only work if you assume that the other pilot knows them and is applying them.

This thread started with someone admitting he didn't know them, and later saying he couldn't be bothered to take a moment to find them. He shouldn't have been aviating until he knew them. How many others are out there?

I agree with Mary, there is no such thing as a stupid question. There are, however, stupid ways of finding answers.

Would anyone care to remind us of the number of mid-air collisions and fatalities resulting from them in the UK in very recent years..?

[dont overfil]

While the OP is probably not technically a visitor he makes it clear he has recently moved here and is flying on his FAA certificate.

My instructor always told me RTFQ.:rolleyes::ok:

When a question raises more questions maybe it is not so stupid.

Chill.

D.O.

[frontlefthamster]

D.O.

It will take more than this lot to take the chill off me or my glass of Chablis...

But I don't get your point... Presumably, you are suggesting that the OP had to learn a new set of rules for avoiding aerial collisions when he moved from the US?

Hang on... If you keep editing your post, it makes a meaningful reply a bit of a challenge...

[piperboy84]

Very interesting indeed, pondering the above reply and reading the rest of the posts, I have come to a few conclusions as follows:
1. Perhaps I should have read the reg’s.

2. I suspect that a fairly large percentage of VFR sport pilots may not know, or have forgotten the codified response to the hypothetical situation I raised.

3. Taking into account No. 2 above, and my gut feeling that most non professional pilots (hobbyists) will default to “what they know” in a high stress situation, my money (and perhaps life) is on them reacting exactly the same way they would if they met an oncoming car head on on a lovely country lane here in the UK, which is steer into the ditch or up the verge and into the hedge ON THE LEFT.

And finally I am overjoyed that I have found such an open and understanding forum for my current and undoubtedly future “stupid questions”. Being the glutton for punishment that I am, my 3 ex wives and their lawyers from both sides of the Atlantic have afforded me a comprehensive sensitivity as to what a real haranguing truly is . Any roasting, condemnations or bollockings I get here will be a walk in the park.

Right, now with that being said, its time to check the weather to see if I’ll be pulling the Maule out of the tractor shed (to the right of the John Deere of course) and go bollox up a few more xwind landings !!!

Happy ,safe flying folks.

[frontlefthamster]

D.O.,

Apologies, I skimmed over this:

Two aircraft heading towards each other in each pilots one o'clock. Not quite likely to collide but too close for comfort.

Left or right, climb or decend or pull the BRS?

Is this scenario in the ANO? That question is for those who do take it to bed at night.


It's very simple. If they are each seeing traffic in the one o'clock position, the relative bearings should be changing, and there is no risk of collision. They will pass starboard to starboard. This is in the ANO.

This is not necessarily true if either aircraft is manoeuvring towards the other; the rules do not provide for manoeuvring cases.

Again, the maritime world makes much more of the very simple interaction between nav lights and traffic lights. The situation above (green to green) is safe. If you see a red nav light on a constant relative bearing, you must give way ('stop'). If you see a green nav light ditto, you must 'stand on' (maintain course and speed). Why the aviation world has never cottoned on to this is beyond me...

There's an excellent little book called 'The Seaman's Guide to the Rules of the Road', which examines the relevant rules and their interpretations. Sadly, there is no aviator's equivalent.

[frontlefthamster]

piperboy,

1. You should have

2. They shouldn't fly

3. I hope I don't meet them as they come off the ferry at Calais or pull out of the hotel car park in Toulouse

I'm glad you're not taking it too badly. Happy landings in the Maule (a lovely aircraft).

[ShyTorque]

Any roasting, condemnations or bollockings I get here will be a walk in the park.

Three ex wives and their lawyers and a Maule.

Whew, respect! :ok:

Any time you feel the need, i.e, for a lesser "roasting, condemnation or bollocking", do feel free to come back and ask something else. ;)

[dont overfil]

It's been a good joust though.

Still friends?:ok:

D.O.

[stickandrudderman]

When is a soap box not a soap box?
When it's a forum!

[Crash one]

Classic PPrune perfectly reasoned discussion:D
And even includes this well worn piece of utter bull****e.
I sometimes wonder what makes glider pilots tick.


2) Rules of the road: power gives way to gliders (except the power pilot usually isn't looking out, in the real world!)

[Pilot DAR]

Two aircraft heading towards each other in each pilots one o'clock. Not quite likely to collide but too close for comfort.

But if one plane is coming from the continent, and the other from the UK. There is an hour time difference. If they are doing traffic avoidance on local time, this could affect safety, as one might actually be at 12 O'clock!:sad:

What about daylight savings time? This could also make the right of way for "O'Clocks" more complicated....

[dont overfil]

PilotDAR:D
Don't know what you're talking about. I've got a digital watch.
D.O.

[Crash one]

But if one plane is coming from the continent, and the other from the UK. There is an hour time difference. If they are doing traffic avoidance on local time, this could affect safety, as one might actually be at 12 O'clock!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif



Yes but they will miss each other by an hour so there is no problem:cool:

[riverrock83]

Could this be a potential time to turn left?
I was on a go-around on runway 13 (must have been 4th solo flight or there abouts) & I believe ATC told me to "Turn left" before I'd completed flying upwind leg, so I did. On crosswind I discovered I was head to head with a helicopter on Finals for 21. Still a fair distance between us, but a bit disconcerting for a newbie.

Options:


Continue crosswind leg, assuming ATC has a plan
Turn Right and so move outside the circuit / going the wrong way on downwind leg, as per right of way / collision avoidance rules
Turn left, which would be turning early downwind
Pull the BRS (sorry - had to add that although I was in a bulldog so not really an option)

I took option 3 which at the time kept the circuit flowing and since there was still a fair distance between us, it wasn't a problem. The Sea King also turned left after I had done, then continued its approach to 21. Would you (much more experienced people) have done the same?

[dont overfil]

Sounds like ATC missjudged your position on climbout. You probably pre-empted ATCs next instruction.

Don't hit a SAR helicopter 'cause you'll not be rescued.

D.O.

[cumulusrider]

As a glider pilot we were recently discussing which way we prefered to circle in a thermal. 2/3s said the turned left as it was a forehand movement on the stick.
Is this bias towards LH turns a UK trend?

Sometimes in close proximity turning might not be the best option of collision avoidance. (Think 45 degree bank would form an X with the wings) Unlike ships we can move in 3 dimensions.

[BabyBear]

riverrock, interesting event, did you establish what had gone wrong and get feedback on the action you took?

BB

[MartinCh]

Cumulusrider,

I was just thinking the same. I (for info of others) know the textbook/law rules of way. But since I prefer thermalling doing left turns, hmm. Begs a question.
Tried to imagine someone 'just appeared 1 o'clock', probably left turn dive...

What I'd do in fixed wing or heli, hm, another question. Definitely do 'diving' in R22 if I fancy having my main rotor still attached.

I take the other guy's suggestion of 'instinctive turn away from traffic' as based on driving. Well, I learned to drive on 'continent' and never drove a car on the wrong side (UK, SA, OZ), so I should be fine in that respect. But agree with the point made.

Crash One,glider pilots try to avoid power traffic flying straight line - they're more predictable and avoidable. Modern gliders tend be harder to spot flying head on. But then, they fly in circles or skimming ridge most of time (excluding wave - big high for regular Joe few thousand feet up and then ATC usually knows, or XC jumps between lift). If jumping between lifts at speed to fly IAS, I hazard a guess that the glider guy will see power gents way earlier.

[riverrock83]

did you establish what had gone wrong and get feedback on the action you took?I'm afraid not - I hadn't thought much about it at the time (it hadn't phased me - I continued and did another couple of uneventful circuits) but started thinking about it after I left that day. Didn't have another lesson for a few weeks and the rest is history.

[foxmoth]

I hazard a guess that the glider guy will see power gents way earlier.

The Glider pilot will certainly HEAR the power gent way before the power pilot hears him!

[Crash one]

Crash One,glider pilots try to avoid power traffic flying straight line - they're more predictable and avoidable. Modern gliders tend be harder to spot flying head on.

That is a more intelligent comment than "power pilots don't look out".
I flew gliders for a time, had a share in a K6E, As such I am well aware of the stealth characteristics of the average glider. Also, most single engine spam cans & bug smashers like my Emeraude have far less field of view than a glider. I just get pissed off by glider pilots assuming that power pilots are blundering on blindly, head down.
Having said that, It didn't help much a couple of years ago as I was about to connect the cable to the CFI & looked up to see a C172 at <1000ft heading straight up the winch line.:ugh:

[24Carrot]

Now here's a interesting speculation.

Let us suppose for a moment that pilots only see 10% of the traffic, so then there is only a 1% chance that both pilots see each other.

So now most pilots think they are 10x better than average, because 90% of the time they see "the traffic", and evade, but the other aircraft carries on S&L, obviously "not keeping a good lookout like I do".

Most pilots will be too modest to actually say that, (unless they are glider pilots, of course:p), they will just think it!

I suspect this is similar to the "logic" that makes 80% of car drivers believe they are better than average.

There is a serious point here. If the typical pilot is mostly seeing traffic without being seen, one could indeed conclude that most traffic is missed.

[foxmoth]

one could indeed conclude that most traffic is missed

As long as it is missed physically as well as visually there is no problem:ok:

[mary meagher]

Crash one, Res Ipse Loquator.....

I see by your profile that you are of a ripe age and live in Scotland, my congratulations. And that you enjoyed a share in a K6 - did you do your X-country in the 6? your 50k, your 300k, your diamond distance? have you flown in competition? Pray don't be so scornful of my assessment of the shortcomings and distractions and downright poor fenstration of the average spam can and its driver; this comes from horrible experience. Not only mine. Put it this way, I am surprised and overjoyed when a spam can makes way for my glider -

[jaycee46]

Riverrock83, I am assuming that you are referring to the large international airport on the Ayrshire coast. They have a bit of previous here!

Last summer, shortly after I had passed my PPL I was in a C152 cleared join right base for 31 and to report final. I then heard a PA28 being cleared to join left base for 31, and also to report final. I was lit up like a christmas tree - well landing light on - and assumed ATC was in control - the name kinda gives it away - so I continued, still not visual with the 28, and was about to turn and report final, when the pilot of the PA 28 called final. I was a bit lower than him, in a 152, so I'll let you work out the visibility possibilities! Anyway the training kicked in - it is not exacty the situation described by the OP, but similar - I firewalled the engine, and instinctively made a sharp right hand orbit, getting a very good view of the underside of a PA28 in the process!

I will say with 20 20 hindsight, that we were never in any imminent danger of collision, and ATC were probably technically right to do nothing, but I and the other pilot, who is a member of the same club had a chat later, and with the CFI, felt ATC could have done better- it was a bit tight, and as it turned out, we both nearly s*at ourselves!

[Rory Dixon]

2) Rules of the road: power gives way to gliders
At least in the ICAO rules as well as in the German rules this is not true, if the aircrafts are in a head on situation. Glider and power both have to turn right. May be in the UK this is different, but I doubt. Power gives way to gliders is only applicable for crossing directions.

[Crash one]

mary meagher.
Please don't attempt to make me feel ashamed that I did not do the X country the 50K, 300, Diamond etc. I got as far as the silver height, & enjoyed every minute, however I found it tedious repairing winches & tractors more than flying.
I have nothing against glider pilots per se, except the fact that many of them, apparently including yourself, seem to regard power pilots as some lower form of aviatic life.
Your bad experience of power pilots is nothing to do with the vast majority of powered a/c or pilots.
If power pilots were such bad aviators generally then shouldn't the authorities be advised & something done about it? Are powered a/c bumping into each other every five minutes?
This seems to be a them & us situation & I do not wish to be in one of those.
We are all in the aviation business, we all use the same atmosphere. If you have a problem with a power pilot who didn't see you, did you discuss it with them? Did you file an MOR? Was it a reportable airmiss?
I once met a glider head on during climb out at a licenced airfield, who dissapeared into cloud at 1200ft over the runway. Legal? prob not, safe? prob not. Good airmanship? deff not in my opinion. I mentioned it's position to my AG as a caution & haven't mentioned it since, 3yrs.
When I was gliding we were encouraged by some instructors to enter Blue 22 as often as possible, in the hope (which worked) that it would be moved a bit to the right. Is this good airmanship?
Enjoy your gliding & your tugging but please stop sniping at other forms of aviation. Glider pilots can't walk on water any more than skydivers.

[Rory Dixon]

The Rules of the Air were derived from the Rules of Shipping, which were dreamt up well before cars were invented......
Quite true, nevertheless, the rules of shipping are fundamentally different. There is NO right of way in shipping. The only thing existing are rules determining who has to stay on track, and who has to change track. And in a situation, where a collision risk is evolving, everybody HAS to navigate in a way to avoid this. Thus NO right of way!

[late-joiner]

Not fundamentally different at all really, apart from the third dimension.

Although slightly different phraseology has evolved in the two environments:
- an aircraft with right of way is required to hold its course and speed;
- nevertheless the overriding duty of the aircraft captain even if he has right of way is to avoid a collison;

which to my mind mirrors the maritime scenario.

[frontlefthamster]

Are powered a/c bumping into each other every five minutes?

Let's see (from memory and a quick bit of googling)...

C402 versus Rand, Coventry, Aug 08, five dead;
Grob versus Grob, near Cardiff, Feb 09, four dead;
Grob versus glider, not far from Benson, June 09, two dead;
Mooney versus Rans, IOW, Sept 10, two dead;
DA40 versus Rans, Shoreham, July 11, one dead;
Pitts versus Taylorcraft, Leicester, Dec 11, one dead.

Six collisions in the last three and a half years, a total of 15 fatalities...

No discussion yet of 'defensive flying'... I never, ever, operate OCAS under cloud streets, or fly over obvious big sources of thermal lift, or at ridge-soaring heights along ridges in conditions favourable to the production of ridge lift... But I only know not to do those things because I have been a cross-country glider pilot...

There are things I do when flying powered aircraft, too, to guard against meeting other powered aircraft, such as flying in IMC on otherwise nice days...

[dont overfil]

Really good discussion here and I'm glad to see we've come full circle from simply obey the rules, to look out and make a reasoned decision in the time allowed.
Piperboy. See what you started:) you'll get more sympathy from me next time we speak. I bet that's got you wondering!
D.O.

[Crash one]

No discussion yet of 'defensive flying'... I never, ever, operate OCAS under cloud streets, or fly over obvious big sources of thermal lift, or at ridge-soaring heights along ridges in conditions favourable to the production of ridge lift... But I only know not to do those things because I have been a cross-country glider pilot...

One does not have to be a cross country glider pilot to know those things, a bog standard non competitive glider pilot should know them. Admittedly not so many, only power pilots, would.
It is a big sky & power pilots have the right to fly where they like OCAS.
As for defensive flying, I am aware of those conditions/places & treat them with considerable caution, I am not however going to avoid big chunks of sky on the off chance of a glider being there.
I may as well stay on the ground in case a power pilot is flying with his eyes down.
Until such time as power pilots are forced by the rules to learn the gliding "system" (which I think would be a good idea) there is obviously going to be a conflict.
We, at our flying club, attempted to organise a day out at the gliding club. Unfortunately not a lot of interest. Personally I think it would be a good thing.

Six collisions in three & a half years!! How many hours/flights without collisions?
I know six is six too many. Compare it with driving, how many crashes/hours?
We may as well give up & hide in a wad of cotton wool.

[mary meagher]

Couple of questions come to mind, perhaps frontlefthamster can answer....

How many hours are required nowadays for a PPL to remain current?
Is an annual check ride required ?or is it every 2 years?

How many hours do PPL's actually do above and beyond the bare minimum?
With the cost of fuel where it is, only the wealthy will be able to keep it up.

The thing that worries me most about spam cans, Tobagos and the odd BRS Cirrus is that the man (are any at all owned by women, I wonder?) who has earned enough money to buy one probably doesn't have enough time to stay current or to enjoy it. And if you think you can use a SELP for your business travel, sooner or later you will discover the shortcomings.

No, seriously, we find in the gliding world that men (usually men, alas) don't find the time or the money to take up the sport in a serious cross country glider until they are approaching an age when the learning curve has about flattened out completely; yet being ex captains of industry, it is not easy sometimes to make these latecomers sensible of their limitations.....

[peterh337]

How many hours are required nowadays for a PPL to remain current?Legally, 12hrs every 2 years, with the 12 having to be done during the 2nd of the two years (don't ask me why; allegedly it was the Germans who wanted that).

But if you don't do the 12hrs, you just have to fly with an Examiner to renew the PPL.

Is an annual check ride required ?or is it every 2 years?There is a re-val flight every 2 years. In practice nobody fails (so long as the instructor survives the flight).

How many hours do PPL's actually do above and beyond the bare minimum?I don't think anybody knows but the UK PPL average is thought to be 20-30hrs/year. There is a fair size SD around that figure though; a lot of people fly very little. And some fly 150+hrs/year.

With the cost of fuel where it is, only the wealthy will be able to keep it up.Depends on how you define "wealthy". I spend a lot less on flying than I used to pay for 2 kids' education. I spend a lot less on flying than I pay in child maintenance... (the ex pays my older son £100/month salary to encourage him to stay at college ;) ;) ).

The thing that worries me most about spam cans, Tobagos and the odd BRS Cirrus is that the man (are any at all owned by women, I wonder?) Yes, some are.

>who has earned enough money to buy one probably doesn't have enough time to stay current or to enjoy it. Depends on how much you earn and how close you have to come to killing yourself to earn it. It's relatively easy to become a millionaire if you kill yourself. I could earn 5x more by killing myself (seriously).

One of the tricks of GA (and probably most other activities) is to be able to do it at a level which brings enjoyment, while being able to easily afford it.

What I think separates GA from most other human activities (at least those I know about) is that in GA there are many more people who really struggle to do it, despite quite obviously not being able to afford it. Flying does deliver a great return (as we all know) but it sure isn't cheap, and this seems to be why so many struggle so hard.

>And if you think you can use a SELP for your business travel, sooner or later you will discover the shortcomings.That's true. It can be done, in the right circumstances. Being based at an airport whose opening hours are those of an airport rather than those of a Brighton hairdresser, with an ILS, and having business contacts at similar locations, is a great start :)

No, seriously, we find in the gliding world that men (usually men, alas) don't find the time or the money to take up the sport in a serious cross country glider until they are approaching an age when the learning curve has about flattened out completely; yet being ex captains of industry, it is not easy sometimes to make these latecomers sensible of their limitations.....I have never done gliding, but isn't it true that gliding is an "all or nothing" activity, where you have to hang out at the club all weekend, or you get accused of being a freeloader? And people divorce there, marry there, find their partners there. Gliding is not an activity where you can just dip in or out. That is great for many but is not useful to many others - especially those with enough money to fly distances in powered GA.

It's a bit like windsurfing; something I was doing 1985-2011. I gave it up because the hassle (loading up the trailer, etc) outweighed the fun, and I never got good enough to really enjoy it (=carve gybes). In that, you get the all-weekend--on-the-beach people, and the quick-sail-then-vanish people. Gliding is the former; powered GA is more the latter. But that's a pity because powered GA would benefit hugely from a "community" and a social scene... but that's another well worn debate :)

[funfly]

Common sense will tell you that the rule about turning to the right is based on two facts;
1 that this gives you the best visual position on the assumption that you are flying on the left seat of the aircraft.
2. it is better for two aircraft in this situation to move in the same direction relative to their individual line of flight.
Having said that, and having been in that situation, it can be very disconcerting to fly what appears to be across the path of another aircraft. Turning left seems to feel like 'turning away' if you are in the left seat.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

... plus instructors tell me I'm not the only one who is much better at steep left turns than steep right turns. However in a head-on I hope I would turn instinctively to the right ... but I don't know for sure, because it's not something I've ever practiced.

[abgd]

I have some sympathy for the OP - part of the PPL exams in Britain is to learn the structure of the AIP and where to find information. Without knowing about that, you could end up looking through all manner of acts of parliament etc. and still not be quite certain that you had the most up to date information.

Not speaking about the poster specifically, a lot of people aren't very good at using search engines either. For example, as few as 10% may know how to use control-f to find something in a document.

Crazy: 90 Percent of People Don't Know How to Use CTRL+F - Alexis Madrigal - Technology - The Atlantic (http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2011/08/crazy-90-percent-of-people-dont-know-how-to-use-ctrl-f/243840/)

~~~~

Having come to my PPL from a hang-gliding background, I have to say that I didn't see a great difference in the calibre of pilots from different backgrounds. Perhaps a few of the paraglider pilots were a bit rasher, but by and large if you'd mixed up all my hang-gliding buddies with the people I met doing my PPL, they'd have gotten on well and found plenty to talk about. I can think of a few mildly reckless folk from both camps - admittedly more from the hang-gliding fraternity.

A big difference between hang/paragliders and powered aircraft is that it really takes quite a lot of work before you get from the slope-soaring stage to the point where you can fly long distances cross country. I never got there. Anyway, if you're 30 miles from a hang-gliding site and meet a hang-glider, chances are the pilot is quite experienced and flies regularly. If you're 30 miles from an airport and meet a light aircraft, it doesn't say much about the pilot's experience or competence - could be a 25 hour pilot on a solo nav. And certainly, there's a lot more reason to keep your head in the cockpit whilst flying a light aircraft as opposed to a hang-glider. I don't know much about fixed wing gliding, but I would have guessed the same may apply (probably to a lesser degree?)

Another difference is that mid-air collisions are more likely for glider pilots than they are for powered pilots, perhaps simply because gliders are more likely to be clumped together on the same hill or in the same thermal.

From 1995-2004 there were 5 midair collisions involving powered aircraft out of a total of 102 accidents (5%) and 10 midair collisions involving gliders out of a total of 38 fatal glider accidents (25%) (both figures include one power/glider collision). To my surprise, there were relatively few foot-launched midair collisions (2/36). (regulatory review of general aviation in the UK, report to the CAA board 2006 www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/RegReview.pdf (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/RegReview.pdf)).

Anyway, if glider pilots are more attuned to the risks of mid-air collisions than powered pilots, perhaps it could be because they're simply a much bigger issue for them, and because the remedy (see and avoid) may work better for them due to lower speeds (I'm aware that some gliders can be very small and very fast).

~~~~

I'm surprised by Mary's comment regarding male powered pilots. There are very few woman hang-glider pilots about, and only slightly more paraglider pilots. My observation had been that a much higher proportion of powered pilots seem to be women. I can't speak for gliding whatsoever.

[dont overfil]

Since when was being computer literate part of a PPL?
D.O.

[Crash one]

Since when was being computer literate part of a PPL?
D.O.


PPR for Perth is now mandatory, preferably "on line".
Prob dosn't apply to youse guys?:ok:

[peterh337]

One has to remember that since nearly everybody chucks in flying shortly after getting their PPL, the community you actually see active at any instant are mostly "old-timers".

I did my JAA PPL in 2000/2001 and we never did notams, the AIP, or anything whatever to do with the internet.

And I am a very "young" pilot, relative to the bulk of the pilot community I see when I go flying.

Sure one needs internet competence to fly nowadays (apart from trivial local popups where you look out of the window, and stay in the local area, and fly without a transponder the rest of the time ;) ;) ) but it has been poorly covered during all the years when it could have been covered i.e. from the late 1990s onwards. And you have the wider issue of how to teach someone of say 60+ who has never used a computer to suddenly start, just so they can fly.

Internet notams date back to 2003 in the UK, and the notam system was impractical (for pilots venturing outside the flying school environment, or the local area) before then.

Re midairs, they fortunately are very rare, and fortunately the scenario is quite predictable statistically: in or near the circuit, and mostly below ~1500ft. The popularly cited risks (overflying VORs, overflying VRPs, flying in/through glider sites, etc) are not supported statistically, and the most popularly cited and perhaps the most instinctively/emotionally worrying one (flying in IMC OCAS) is not supported at all, with zero midairs since WW2.

[dont overfil]

Crash one,
I was quoting you from another forum. But I did explain an alternative.
Hooked?:E
D.O.

[India Four Two]

Earlier in this thread, dont overfill said:
No, he probably didn't pass a UK air law exam! Nor do most of the visitors to the UK.

Coincidentally, during my recent holiday in NZ, I completed all the paperwork and the BFR that were required in order to convert from a Canadian PPL to a Kiwi one. No requirement for ANY exams, not even NZ air law!

Now before anyone jumps in, I should point out that I have taken the time to study air law and ATC procedures.

pb84, keep asking the "stupid questions". I often find out something new when researching an answer and threads such as this also give me hours of entertainment. :)

[ShyTorque]

Since when was being computer literate part of a PPL?

Having posted the question online is it unreasonable to assume that the participant is computer literate? :ugh:

[dont overfil]

Surely posting on a forum is primary one level. Even I can do that. (To a limited extent).
I do not consider myself to be computer literate.
D.O.

[Crash one]

Crash one,
I was quoting you from another forum. But I did explain an alternative.
Hooked?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif
D.O.

:confused: Unless we are talking in biscuit code?

[dont overfil]

Crash One,
All kinds of misdemeanors can be forgiven by offering Choc Chip Cookies or Custard Cremes.
D.O.:ok:

[ShyTorque]

Surely posting on a forum is primary one level. Even I can do that. (To a limited extent). I do not consider myself to be computer literate.
D.O.

But you did find your way here, registered a username with an email address and have successfully posted (over 610 times), then I would say that you are computer literate enough to access everything required for good flight planning.

NOTAMS
Met Information
CAA Documents
PPRuNe
...sorted. ;)

[dont overfil]

ShyTorque you are so kind.:).

Peter put it into words very well. I am not of the computer generation and really struggle with them. I've no patience and I'm extremely grumpy. (I'm told). Fortunately the monitor is too heavy to throw out the window.

D.O.

[Crash one]

Copy the biscuits, WX & log splitting permitting.