8 people across 3000nm

[Cseries]

Dear All,

We are currently evaluating a number of aircraft including Embraer Legacy, Challenger 604, Falcon 2000, etc.

Our basic requirement is to move 8 people about 3000nm non stop. While the salesmen promise that a lot of aircraft will do it, i'm interested in real world experiences with the above aircraft.

Thanks

[NuName]

Falcon 900 range.

[mr castro]

F2000 EX/Easy

[smallfry]

Gulfstream IV, IVSP, 450, V and 550.

[international hog driver]

I currently fly a 2000EX Easy and 3000nm is bread and butter.

You will do this with plenty of reserves, all the luggage and do it from a short runway to boot.

3000nm = 7hr = 14000lb of fuel = too easy:ok:

Plus with a Falcon you have the high MLW so you can tanker a stack of motion lotion when the boss wants you to do short legs. in this respect it has it all over a 601/604.:E

[RFGN]

Hello,

As Hawker driver, I would suggest you the Hawker 1000 series, 9 people across 3200NM.

Rgds

[His dudeness]

With how many build? 52? And the last off the line is how old?

[cambioso]

RFGN

Excellent figures RFGN, but what happens if all 9 people turn up with 2 Samsonites each?? Where are you going to put them then??
The problems with Hawkers, short range or long, is ALWAYS baggage space.

Falcon 2000EX is streets ahead on all counts.

(I don't fly the 2000 BTW)

Regards,
Jez

[Cseries]

Thanks. Seems Falcon is the way to go

[RFGN]

Cambioso,

Yes indeed there is not enough space in all the Hawker series,but how much is a Falcon 2000 EX?

Look at the controller, some used HS125-1000 are no bad...

[long final]

The Hawker 1000 with 9 Pax is a nightmare for luggage. Great aircraft though and a joy to fly.

The 2000EX has a mass of space compared with the Hawker. They are in very different leagues.

The 900EX is huge compared to the Hawker - the 2000 has more!

[eyealess]

GIV/SP. No brainer. pre used fairly low hours circa 16 million USD.

[epsum]

Why not Challenger 604/605?
Price per hour much cheaper than GIV/F2000, a bit less roomy, but sure bet for 3000 nm and 9 pax.

[Anotheravatar]

Citation X.

You guys can sit down there in the bumps if you want, myself, I don't plan on spending my whole life in a cockpit.

[Cowboy-76]

Challenger 604 Will do the 3,000nm no sweat with lots of bags and 8 or 9 pax in great comfort.

Aircraft available at good price compared to a Falcon 2000

Operating costs, fuel burn a fraction of the G450.

Mx costs a fraction of the Falcons

[Arkwright]

G4 cheap to buy but big maintenance bills and even bigger fuel bills.

F900 more expensive to buy but less than 2/3rds fuel consumption of the G4

Maybe a Legacy 600? Massive hold but I think a little stretched for 3000nm?

[rightbank]

According to the Embraer website the Legacy 650 will do 3800nm with 8 pax.

Embraer Executive Jets (http://www.embraerexecutivejets.com/english/content/aircraft/legacy650_range.asp)

Would seem to do the job for you, but treat manufacturers claims with caution.

[Arkwright]

Unless buying new, there aren't many secondhand 650's yet.......and I suspect a 600 may not quite make 3000nm?? Secondhand Legacy 600's are good value for money though......

[Deep and fast]

Get yourself the legacy 650 it will do it and have a much better hold capacity than the falcon.

D and F

[Anotheravatar]

I ponder when some realism will enter this discussion and the limitation will be 'an aircraft under $3 million that can go 3000 nm' or such.

Another thought..the longest overwater distance on Earth evidently is California to Hawaii, so unless you start coming up with scenarios like the North Pole over the ocean to the South Pole. Simply put 3000 nm is 'nice' to have...but I am not sure If you really need that range for other then convenience sake. While I don't fly those ranges...I gather a few corporate flight departments would like to fly West Coast direct Japan, rather then a hop a few islands to get there. It's been my experience if you really need that type of range the GIV will pretty much do it all, but that's just what I have heard.

[Cseries]

3000nm for us is not a luxury, it is a requirement.

We are looking to spend about $15 million (US) so certainly Falcon 2000, Legacy 600 or Challenger 604 money.

[mutt]

It's been my experience if you really need that type of range the GIV will pretty much do it all

The big question is are you attempting to cover 3000 nautical ground miles or 3000 nautical air miles, the difference between the two is the wind. And are you expecting to do it 100% of the time.

I have flown a GIV with a ground speed of 300 kts, hence making a 3000 ngm sector impossible.

So I would suggest that you define your routes, set about finding the average winds and then decide on your requirements.

Mutt

[Cseries]

Thanks Mutt, is currently being done.

[silverknapper]

Looks to me like Mutt has given you the best advice. Also once you have decided on the range you require do you know for sure your future requirement won't change? There is maybe a lot of sense in choosing something which will do 20% more than you think you'll need.

In terms of the 3000nm requirement the only one I'd add to the list is the Hawker 4000. Purely on the same line of thinking as the CL604, ie much lower running costs than the bigger boys.

[tommoutrie]

dear AnotherAviator

been 3000nm in a 601 a couple of times and I'm sure my boss would find you one for 3mil...

[CALDC9]

"CL604 is the way forward"

"Challenger 604 Will do the 3,000nm no sweat with lots of bags and 8 or 9 pax in great comfort.

Aircraft available at good price compared to a Falcon 2000

Operating costs, fuel burn a fraction of the G450.

Mx costs a fraction of the Falcons"

Best bang for the Buck IMHO

:ok:

[jackx123]

the question goes back to mutt's suggestion.

what space do you want to cover and what weather is anticipated. the 604/5 has 41,000 ceiling and others 51,000.

my suggestion is to do a simple matrix xls(not cessna) and just compare the variables. the numbers will speak their own language and you will be able to do a qualified decision based on facts not emotions (falcon vs. gulf stream vs......)

a similar exercise some time ago was done and for a typical 3,000 leg if need be the choice was a lr60xr with a stop and travel first class for longer legs. it proved almost perfect choice, but again it differs between egos.

[WTON]

Hello,

I don't know if you have already discussed about the Hawker 4000??

[Max Payne]

Stay away from the Hawker 4000.

[Pilotech]

Hawker 4000 with the upgrade is now a good machine...

[jackx123]

here is what we did.

took the past 1-2 years average travel requirement and gauged if this would be a true picture going forward the next few years.

planned our travel based on first class (c when no f available). came up with cost (4 pax average including hotel, taxi etc), time taken and compared with various private options.

got all the $/h all in and finally presented to management with our recommendations.

now, if there is endless of funds available you can disregard all of the above and go straight for a BBJ/ACJ.

[mutt]

now, if there is endless of funds available you can disregard all of the above and go straight for a BBJ/ACJ. Last time we did this, started off with a BBJ, ended up with a 748i....... :):):):)

Mutt

[jackx123]

did the 380 get cancelled?:ooh:

[mutt]

I was wondering the same thing.....

Mutt

[aerochip]

In my opinion, 8 pax for 3000nm is a cozy cabin. I would consider any aircraft with 3 cabin zones; 900B, 900EX, GIV and GIV/SP and to a lesser extent, the Legacy600. The Falcons are more acquisition and less operating cost. Depending on configuration, I prefer the Gulfstream cabin.

[Anotheravatar]

Until we put capitol cost in the equation the discussion is pointless. I guess if you haven't managed a flight department this isn't a consideration.

Since we are living in fantasy land, I'll take the SR71, cremate the passengers, put them in urns in the storage area.

[FlyMD]

Not the biggest cabin, but the G280 in "double-vip" configuration would do the trick... Cheaper to buy than the Falcons, and if the operating costs look good too... I just hope by now they're more reliable than the 200 was...

[jetopa]

CL604 - probably the most successful product in this range, for a good reason. You can find some deals if you're not fixated on new equipment. Disadvantage, maybe: tricky in icy conditions (some accidents), won't climb when heavily loaded, baggage compartment small for this size of airplane.

G-IV - will do the job and can be found for reasonable prices. Disadvantage: narrow cabin, even tough some passengers just love these windows.

F2000 - not enough range, but nice cabin, good size baggage compartment and good performance.

F2000EX EASy - too expensive yet, but range is not a problem any more.

Best bang for the buck here: F2000EX 'classic' (= pre-EASy model). Exactly the same as the EASy minus the big screens up front = cheaper. :ok: Only 27 of them ever built.

Good luck!