Nats atcos to spain?

[Daermon ATC]

Hi there,

as you may know, the company FerroNats (joint venture between Ferrovial and Nats) was awarded the opportunity to provide atc services at 10 different towers (no app/aps) in Spain. Apparently now they are having trouble finding willing and/or able twr controllers here in Spain who would accept 32k euros/year as well as the draconian spanish laws regarding atcos.

I've come across a rumor stating that Nats is trying to relocate some of their own twr staff to Spain, apparently on a temporary basis while they tighten the screws on the roughly 150 trainees who have paid 50k euros for an atco student licence and now balk at these conditions. :E

I'm grading this rumor as relatively low probability since Nats would have to offer any of their staff a hefty bonus to convince them to move for a year (?) to Spain, never mind explain them how they are going to handle possible fines of 4,5 Million euros... to an individual atco, not the company. Also this would not really solve the problem, just delay its resolution... although given that FerroNats was only awarded a five year contract (+1 year possible extension), perhaps that could be also an aim. :ooh:

In any case, has any of you heard about it? :confused:

[Defruiter]

Yes, that is correct.

[Me Me Me Me]

I think those going over could be considered 'change management' :ok:

NATS has had staff based in Spain for a number of years - not related to FerroNATS but working on other projects. Sending staff overseas for short terms is no big deal and quite common.

[WorkInProgress]

Apparently NATS only won 2 out of the 10 towers.

[throw a dyce]

I thought the contract was for 13 towers.FerroNats got 10 and Saerco 3.

[WorkInProgress]

I'm sure it was for 10 and NATS won 2? I heard that serco weren't invited back to the final stage of the bid because there package wasn't up to much. Don't know who won the other 8 contracts though?

[eglnyt]

The first tranche was for 13 towers. 10 of those went to FerroNATS (Alicante, Valencia, Ibiza, Sabadell, Sevilla, Jerez, Melilla, Madrid Cuatro Vientos, Vigo and A Coruña), the other 3 (Lanzarote, Fuerteventura and La Palma) went to Saerco (not to be confused with Serco).

[WorkInProgress]

Fair play, i stand corrected.

[radarman]

Daermon,

Quote: never mind explain them how they are going to handle possible fines of 4,5 Million euros... to an individual atco.

NATS will have no intention of explaining this to any UK volunteers. Nor will they enlighten them about the completely different legal system (Napoleonic code) they will become involved with should there be an incident or accident.

I hear the GM at Gibraltar is spending alot of time in Spain trying to get the new system up and running. That should ruffle a few feathers!

[mts1]

"...150 trainees who have paid 50k euros for an atco student licence..."

Since when do NATS trainees have to pay 50k for their licence?

[Sonnendec]

"...150 trainees who have paid 50k euros for an atco student licence..."

Since when do NATS trainees have to pay 50k for their licence?

He´s talking about the 150 spanish trainees nowadays unemployed.

[Dan Dare]

We've seen the flying industry rot from pay-to-fly. Now we're going for pay-to-control? Surely that will never work? Airlines got away with bank-balance selection to an extent, but there are two people in the cockpit and even if P2F halves safety levels it would still be so safe that trends would be difficult to spot. There is only one ATCO on frequency. The ATCO is either necessary and needs to be of a calibre and expreience level to keep things safe or any monkey could do it with pay in peanuts. Many will hope it is the latter, but this could turn out to be a tragic and expensive experiment.

I foresee a lot of learning (=incidents) over the next few years while this settles down, but if it is seen as a success you can be sure it will repeated elsewhere:eek:

[chevvron]

Don't forget the Spanish Authority originally wanted to use FISOs rather than ATCOs; they presumably would be paid monkey nuts rather than peanuts.

[radarman]

Does FerroNats intend their ten towers to be staffed entirely by the new trainees, experience level Nil? Can you imagine Valencia at the height of the tourist season? Recipe for certain disaster.

[161R]

Does FerroNats intend

"Intend" implies planning. NATS and planning are not a combination frequently seen in the same sentence, let alone anywhere else.

So probably, yes!

[chevvron]

They'll probably have to speak 'ICAO level 4 Spanish'.

[5milesbaby]

Think I read that speaking Spanish was necessary! Believe NATS were going to help fund a language course for those that didn't quite manage the requirement :ouch:

[radarman]

They'll probably have to speak 'ICAO level 4 Spanish'.

My information is that the guy who certified them as Level 4 is a NATS employee whose first language is English, and who has a vested interest in seeing this FerroNats project come to a successful conclusion. :ugh:

[Daermon ATC]

They'll probably have to speak 'ICAO level 4 Spanish'.
Nope, not really. Spanish law allows for non-spanish speaking controllers on towers with lots of international flights... but exactly what "lots" means has been never defined so I'd say that "once a month" will be considered enough.
It's nice when yout company is also the government... you can ask them to tweak the laws as you need them.

Many will hope it is the latter, but this could turn out to be a tragic and expensive experiment.
47 class A incidents in Spain in 2010... bless TCAS


Thanks to all who answered my question... I must admitt that I'm a little surprised though. Not for the part of doing a job in another country for a few years (I worked for an international financial company prior to becoming atc) but rather because I'd think spanish law to which these controllers would be subject is ... 4th world?

I can clarify if needed, either here or on a private message... just let me post the 2 main laws (+1 modification) spanish atcos must obey:

Ley 21/2003 (http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2003/07/08/pdfs/A26368-26387.pdf)
Ley 9/2010 (http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2010/04/15/pdfs/BOE-A-2010-5983.pdf)
Ley 1/2011 (http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2011/03/05/pdfs/BOE-A-2011-4116.pdf) (modifies the first one. Check item 16 and 20 specially... there you can read a range of new infractions that will yield you a definitive loss of atco licence and a fine from 250.001€ to 4.500.000€ ... and no, I didn't make any mistake with the zeros...)


Want to come to Spain? You are welcome!
Can I have your former post at.... wherever?

[Lssar]

There you go:

«2. Cuando las infracciones fueran cometidas por las entidades colaboradoras de inspección, las compañías que realicen transporte aéreo comercial, las organizaciones de diseño, fabricación o mantenimiento de aeronaves, los proveedores de servicios de navegación aérea, los agentes de servicios aeroportuarios, los gestores de aeropuertos, aeródromos o instalaciones aeroportuarias y, en general, las personas físicas o jurídicas que desarrollen actividades incluidas en el ámbito de aplicación de esta ley con carácter comercial o que las realicen a cambio de una contraprestación económica no salarial las sanciones aplicables serán las siguientes:

a) Para las infracciones leves, apercibimiento o multa de 4.500 hasta 70.000 euros.
b) Para las infracciones graves, multa de 70.001 a 250.000 euros.
c) Para las infracciones muy graves, multa de 250.001 a 4.500.000 euros.»

[pamplinas]

Needless to say, this "mercenaries" won't recieve a warm welcome from the locals. How would you feel if some germans would go to your towers to snatch out your jobs in such a privatization process (with no agreement whatsoever) and leaving you with the only choice of moving out far away from home?
Be advised, I guess the bonus offered is not going to be worth it.

[Loki]

Well, I don't know of any Germans, but I do know of at least 2 Spaniards, one Belgian and a Dutchman in NATS.....I don't think they'd regard themselves as "mercenaries".

[pamplinas]

Loki, you know that's far from being the same. Those guys you mention passed the same recruiting and training process their colleagues did, and they now form part of the same staff and company.
BTW, we too have a few foreingers working as atcs in AENA, no difference made.

[Daermon ATC]

Needless to say, this "mercenaries" won't recieve a warm welcome from the locals.
Personally, I do not support the above statement. I consider it a veiled threath and showcase for a chauvinistic worldview.

It is also inaccurate: Workers from NATS (or wherever FerroNats finds their staff) are going to be assigned to one of the 10 "liberalized" towers in mainland Spain. The only time they will meet with Aena controllers is when they get their OTJ training. They are guaranteed to pass that training.

From the third link I posted:
En los supuestos de cambio de proveedor de tránsito aéreo, dificultar, obstaculizar o negarse a prestar la debida colaboración y a suministrar la formación e instrucción así como la información necesaria para que dicho cambio se produzca con garantías de seguridad, eficacia y continuidad.An aproximate translation is that any difficulty, delay or refusal to provide training and collaboration is a very severe offence, which as I explained before yields automatically a permanent loss of atco license and a fine betweeen 250.001 and 4.500.000 Euros.
And who decides what was a "difficulty, delay or refusal"? Yep, you got it...


So basically these foreign staff will get their validation at the speediest legal limit (an perhaps even sooner... forgett USA, Spain is the country where everything is possible :yuk: ) and then they will never see an Aena atco again.

Ah, by the way, don't take that statement from Pamplinas personally... many controllers have the same attitude towards those newly minted atco-students who paid 50.000 euros for their training and now learn that they are basically jobless ... here is a chilling letter (http://www.limaeco.aero/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18183) from one of them explaining his situation (spanish only, but google translate it)

I will never blame a worker for a manager's decission, I just try to provide the information so they know where they are getting into.

[Nimmer]

How can aynone be GUARANTEED to pass their training?

Are you saying that the controlling in the Spanish towers is so easy you don't need any form of training??? I don't think so.

The NATS controllers will need to be trained by the "leaving" AENA controllers surely?

If so, it may not be a pleasant experience!!!!

[atcsstudent]

I,ll tell you one thing, since february the 5th 2010, if aena wants, anyone or I would even say anything can be a qualified atco in less than a breath. That is an example of how much our ansp cares about the job, safety, ...
But if the training is from nats things will probably be different.
Regards.

[radarman]

Daermon,

We think that the Blair and Cameron governments are two-timing, lying cheats, but the letter from rodriguez 81 in your link shows that even they have been surpassed in greed and duplicity by Senasa. All those who have been taken in by this government fraud have my deepest sympathy.

[aldegar]

How can aynone be GUARANTEED to pass their training?


I know it sounds incredible, but after the 5th of february of 2010 anything is posible in Spain regarding ATC. As an example, that year the government decided to replace the ATCOs in El Hierro (GCHI) by FISOs (from INECO). However, the island's citizens were outraged when they found out that no ATC service was being provided in their airport and it became a hot political issue. What did they do? INECO gave quick "upgrade" training (one or two months, not fully sure) to their FISOs and... et voila, all of them suddenly became ATCOs, with a European ATC license and a twr rating. A Guinness record, in less time that it would have normally taken to get the local twr rating (used to be three months), not only they got that rating, but also a European ATCO license! Amazing, isn't it?


Needless to say, this "mercenaries" won't recieve a warm welcome from the locals.


Like Daermon ATC, I personally don't support Pamplina's comment. Government and management are the ones to blame, not the colleagues who decide to work for ferronats or Saerco. For me they are not mercenaries, they are just workers like us applying for a job, just the same as the many spanish ATCOs who have left in the past two years two work in other countries.

But it's easy for me to say since I work in an ACC and I'm not facing, like my twr colleagues, being notified any moment that I have to move to wherever AENA decides (with all it implies: wife's jobs, kid's schools, paying the mortgage of a house you won't be using plus a rent in your new place...).

[ZOOKER]

aldegar,
surely you are a 'mobile-grade'.
Over the last ten years or so, many in NATS have been through the upheavals you describe in your last paragraph, some moving to other continents, let alone new towers.

[pamplinas]

Ok, let me try to sort things out:

An atc student trying to be recruited to get their atc license is an applicant. Hopefully he will eventually become a colleague, regardless the company he works for. No argument there (apart for the fact that he, sadly, had to pay for his training, which I believe is not the way things should be done in this business).

BTW, USCA has consistenly proposed the recruitment of these new atcos students (demanding, of course, their inclusion in our collective agreement). We have also changed our union rules to let them in, so I guess Daermon and aldegar missed this point.

On the other hand, an atc with full license and instructor rating, working at the job he applied for, who decides to join this venture just for the bonus they offer or because he wants to spend a few months in the sunny Spain, without considering the real meaning of this process and the consequences for the ones that are supposed to be their colleagues, is a mercenary. I can't see it any other way.

Note that in the last 2 years the spanish ANSP already tried to bring atcos from other countries to try to break any industrial action taken by the staff. Namely, italians and argentinians were contacted. In both cases, the unions called USCA (spanish atc union) and after knowing what was behind the scenes, not only they refused roundly, they also send support letters to spanish atcos. I believe USCA has also talk about this matter with Prospect and therefore I'm surprised with the lack of solidarity this forum is showing.

Anyway, there's no veiled threat in here, I must admit here Daermon's got a point. There's not much we can do with such legal framework they've built to enforce this process. I'm just trying to make people reconsider their will to join this mischief. Don't be wrong, it is indeed a worker's decision to play a part in CANSO's game. You choose. We'll see who's next.

[Out The Gap]

Pamplinas & Aldegar,

Maybe I'm wrong here (and please correct me if I am), but is it not true that all Aena ATCOs (native Spanish or otherwise) in the towers to be privatised, were given a deadline (possibly January 10th?) to decide whether they wanted to remain employed by Aena and be stationed elsewhere, or to remain in their current stations/towers and be employed by FerroNATS or Saerco?? In other words, they would not be forced to leave their current stations, but could choose to stay where they are and adopt the new working conditions of their new employer. Therefore they do have a choice and are not being ousted by mercenaries.

If this is the case, it is quite possible that some Aena ATCOs would leave while others might decide to stay. Then Daermon, the FerroNATS/Saerco staff could well be working alongside those Aena ATCOs (and any of the 150 cadets who are subsequently trained in) for some time to come, after their own initial OJT is complete, and not as you say "never see another Aena ATCO again."

I myself enquired about the FerroNATS position. I was told the number of vacancies would depend on the number of Spanish ATCOs who decide to leave their respective towers and stay with Aena. The FerroNATS job would involve being/becoming an OJTI (and eventually supervisor or 'Tower Chief') and moving from tower to tower, training in as many as required of the 150 cadets, until all vacancies are filled in all of the privatised towers. Level 4 Spanish language is required, especially in quieter airports where its used on the frequency as well as co-ordinating with other units/airport personnel. There will be an exam(s) in Senasa college in Madrid. Post-privatisation, FerroNATS staff would have the option of remaining in Spain for the entire 5+1 year contract and longer, and of being employed by the next contractor should FerroNATS lose the contract next time around.

This is what I heard, please feel free to say otherwise if you heard differently...

I also agree with Aldegar, that this is just another job vacancy and people can apply for it from whatever country/background they wish, without being labelled a mercenary. They are simply agreeing to the conditions that other Aena ATCOs are voluntarily rejecting. Yes there will understandably be friction between FerroNATS/Saerco staff and other Aena ATCOs initially, but all Spanish bitterness and resentment should instead be directed at Aena for their gross mismanagement and refusal to recruit more staff years ago, which would have avoided the massive overtime bill that crippled the company with debt, and the December 2010 strikes that provoked the new laws.

[Daermon ATC]

@ Pamplinas: My apologies then for misinterpreting your position. I thought it was one of those "old guard" rants.

@ Out of the Gap: You are absolutely correct, of course. As it didn't relate directly to my initial question, I simplified the context.
To be precise, in Spain we have laws stating that when your job is taken over by another company you have the choice to remain at your job with the new company but at your old conditions. Your salary can not be downgraded due to this.... that is, of course, for all spaniards except those working as Atcos.

So Atcos at these towers have been faced with three options:
1) Leave your work as atco
2) Remain at your job but with the new salary conditions of the new provider (so far we've heard about 30k - 40k euros gross per year).
Unlike you, we haven't been offered to remain with another new provider (and who knows at which conditions) once the 5+1 years are over.
3) Remain with Aena but be moved to another post at their choice. This can be a blessing (staff from LECU moving to LECM) or a curse (staff from LECO and GCRR to LECP)

The only staff you would be likely to encounter would be the ones who chose option 2 but they wouldn't be technically Aena staff anymore. (There is an intermediate option to temporary stay with the new provider and after a few years return to Aena but due to a number of reasons it is unlikely that many will take it.)

In any case I didn't think Nats staff would be interested to move to Spain unless the job conditions offered would be better than you current ones. Given the legal framework you would be subject to in Spain it would have to be a significant salary increase, and I didn't know that FerroNats had such margins to do it.

@ Nimmer: Spain is different, didn't you know? Currently all staff of the towers to be privaticed have been forced to make an instructor training. This is also true for staff who has been hired for barely a year. The penalty for refusing has already been stated: immediate loss of your licence and a fine from 250.001 to 4.500.000 euros.

So when Aena sends new trainees your way, there are no absolute markings, no objective way to say somebody is unfit to work as a controller. So you have the choice: either pass that guy and get out of there as quick as you can before metal bits start to rain or fail him on your subjective perception... and face an enquiry due to delaying or difficulting the privatization process with the aforementioned consequences.

Same goes for the exams mentioned by Out of the Gap at Senasa. There is simply no way they will not get the required number of passes. In Spain many consider safety regulations a check to be performed on a box, there is no reason for anything else.

Two examples on that:
You know that english fluency ICAO level 4 is a requirement for atcos in Spain. Obviously Spain is compliant with international regulations and all atcos have at least ICAO lvl 4.
No, an exam is not necessary, we have been granted that level by royal decree (http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2011/02/19/pdfs/BOE-A-2011-3257.pdf).
(Granted on 19th feb 2011 for 18 months) A mere english teacher granted you your level, mine was granted by a minister. :rolleyes:

As for the second, today at 16:00 CET two spanish atcos will stand before the european petittion comittee to report on the gross violation of european directives by the spanish government as they completely disregard the obligation of previous safety studies prior to any important modification ... something that never happened with all the changes done since 5th feb 2010 and afterwards. :mad:

[Plumaveloz]

Sadly, they were not only 3 regulatios, but more than 30 the ones that have been passed trough for the past two years. At the bottom is the list.
Obviously, the ATCO´s legal situation is awfull, with many controversial and opposite statemens on this bounch of paper.
Regars,
A.

RELACIÓN DISPOSICIONES LEGALES
AÑO 2010
1.- Ministerio de Fomento (BOE de 29/12/2010 - Sección I)
Orden FOM/3352/2010, de 22 de diciembre, por la que se determinan los aeropuertos gestionados por la entidad pública empresarial Aeropuertos Españoles y Navegación Aérea para la selección de nuevos proveedores civiles de servicios de control de tránsito aéreo de aeródromo.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2010-19999)
2.- Cortes Generales (BOE de 18/12/2010 - Sección I)
Resolución de 16 de diciembre de 2010, del Congreso de los Diputados, por la que se ordena la publicación del acuerdo de autorización de la prórroga del estado de alarma declarado por el Real Decreto 1673/2010, de 4 de diciembre.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2010-19453)
3.- Ministerio de la Presidencia (BOE de 18/12/2010 - Sección I)
Real Decreto 1717/2010, de 17 de diciembre, por el que se prorroga el estado de alarma declarado por el Real Decreto 1673/2010, de 4 de diciembre.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2010-19462)
4.- Presidencia del Gobierno (BOE de 04/12/2010 - Sección I)
Real Decreto 1611/2010, de 3 de diciembre, por el que se encomienda transitoriamente al Ministerio de Defensa las facultades de control de tránsito aéreo atribuidos a la entidad pública empresarial AENA.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2010-18652)
5.- Ministerio de la Presidencia (BOE de 04/12/2010 - Sección I)
Real Decreto 1673/2010, de 4 de diciembre, por el que se declara el estado de alarma para la normalización del servicio público esencial del transporte aéreo.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2010-18683)
6.- Jefatura del Estado (BOE de 03/12/2010 - Sección I)
Real Decreto-ley 13/2010, de 3 de diciembre, de actuaciones en el ámbito fiscal, laboral y liberalizadoras para fomentar la inversión y la creación de empleo.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2010-18651)
7.- Jefatura del Estado (BOE de 23/10/2010 - Sección I)
Ley 36/2010, de 22 de octubre, del Fondo para la Promoción del Desarrollo. (tema 57 años)
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2010-16131)
8.- Ministerio de Fomento (BOE de 15/10/2010 - Sección I)
Resolución de 4 de octubre de 2010, de la Dirección de la Agencia Estatal de Seguridad Aérea, por la que se establece el canje de las licencias, habilitaciones y anotaciones en vigor expedidas con arreglo al Real Decreto 3/1998, de 9 de enero, sobre el título profesional aeronáutico civil y licencia de controlador de tránsito aéreo.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2010-15721)
9.- Ministerio de la Presidencia (BOE de 24/09/2010 - Sección I)
Real Decreto 1133/2010, de 10 de septiembre, por el que se regula la provisión del servicio de información de vuelo de aeródromos (AFIS).
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2010-14625)
10.- Ministerio de Fomento (BOE de 17/09/2010 - Sección I)
Corrección de errores del Real Decreto 931/2010, de 23 de julio, por el que se regula el procedimiento de certificación de proveedores civiles de servicios de navegación aérea y su control normativo.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2010-14223)
11.- Ministerio de Fomento (BOE de 17/09/2010 - Sección I)
Corrección de errores del Real Decreto 1001/2010, de 5 de agosto, por el que se establecen normas de seguridad aeronáutica en relación con los tiempos de actividad y los requisitos de descanso de los controladores de tránsito aéreo.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2010-14224)
12.- Ministerio de Fomento (BOE de 11/09/2010 - Sección III)
Orden FOM/2376/2010, de 10 de agosto, por la que se designa al Aeropuerto de El Hierro como Aeropuerto con Información de Vuelo de Aeródromo (AFIS) a efectos de la provisión de servicios de tránsito aéreo.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2010-14031)
13.- Ministerio de Fomento (BOE de 07/08/2010 - Sección I)
Real Decreto 931/2010, de 23 de julio, por el que se regula el procedimiento de certificación de proveedores civiles de servicios de navegación aérea y su control normativo.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2010-12705)
14.- Ministerio de Fomento (BOE de 06/08/2010 - Sección I)
Real Decreto 1001/2010, de 5 de agosto, por el que se establecen normas de seguridad aeronáutica en relación con los tiempos de actividad y los requisitos de descanso de los controladores civiles de tránsito aéreo.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2010-12620)
15.- Ministerio de Fomento (BOE de 09/07/2010 - Sección I)
Orden FOM/1841/2010, de 5 de julio, por la que se desarrollan los requisitos para la certificación de los proveedores civiles de formación de controladores de tránsito aéreo.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2010-10888)
16.- Ministerio de Fomento (BOE de 24/06/2010 - Sección III)
Orden FOM/1681/2010, de 19 de mayo, por la que se designa al Aeropuerto de la Gomera como Aeropuerto de Información de Vuelo (AFIS) a efectos de la provisión de servicios de tránsito aéreo.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2010-10043)
17.- Jefatura del Estado (BOE de 15/04/2010 - Sección I)
Ley 9/2010, de 14 de abril, por la que se regula la prestación de servicios de tránsito aéreo, se establecen las obligaciones de los proveedores civiles de dichos servicios y se fijan determinadas condiciones laborales para los controladores civiles de tránsito aéreo.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2010-5983)
18.- Ministerio de Fomento (BOE de 13/04/2010 - Sección I)
Orden FOM/896/2010, de 6 de abril, por la que se regula el requisito de competencia lingüística y su evaluación.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2010-5881)
19.- Real Decreto-ley 1/2010, de 5 de febrero, por el que se regula la prestación de servicios de tránsito aéreo, se establecen las obligaciones de los proveedores civiles de dichos servicios y se fijan determinadas condiciones laborales para los controladores civiles de tránsito aéreo.
BOE número 32 de 5/2/2010, páginas 10962 a 10973 (12 págs.)

AÑO 2009:
20.- Ministerio de la Presidencia (BOE de 16/10/2009 - Sección I)
Real Decreto 1516/2009, de 2 de octubre, por el que se regula la licencia comunitaria de controlador de tránsito aéreo.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2009-16482)

AÑO 2011
21.- Real Decreto 28/2011, de 14 de enero, por el que se deroga el Real Decreto 1611/2010, de 3 de diciembre, por el que se encomienda transitoriamente al Ministerio de Defensa las facultades de control de tránsito aéreo atribuidos a la entidad pública empresarial AENA.
Publicado en: BOE número 13 de 15/1/2011, páginas 4753 a 4753 (1 pág.)

22.- Ministerio de Fomento (BOE de 06/01/2011 - Sección III)
Orden FOM/3457/2010, de 22 de diciembre, por la que se designa al aeropuerto de Burgos como Aeropuerto con Información de Vuelo de Aeródromo (AFIS) a efectos de la provisión de servicios de tránsito aéreo.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2011-312)
• Presidencia del Gobierno (BOE de 15/01/2011 - Sección I)
Real Decreto 28/2011, de 14 de enero, por el que se deroga el Real Decreto 1611/2010, de 3 de diciembre, por el que se encomienda transitoriamente al Ministerio de Defensa las facultades de control de tránsito aéreo atribuidos a la entidad pública empresarial AENA.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2011-737)


23.- Ministerio de Trabajo e Inmigración (BOE de 26/01/2011 - Sección III)
Resolución de 21 de enero de 2011, de la Dirección General de Trabajo, por la que se registra y publica el Acuerdo de compromiso arbitral en la empresa Aeropuertos Españoles y Navegación Aérea.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2011-1417)

24.- Ministerio de la Presidencia (BOE de 19/02/2011 - Sección I)
Real Decreto 188/2011, de 18 de febrero, por el que se modifica el Real Decreto 1516/2009, de 2 de octubre, por el que se regula la licencia comunitaria de controlador de tránsito aéreo.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2011-3257)

25.- Jefatura del Estado (BOE de 05/03/2011 - Sección I)
Ley 1/2011, de 4 de marzo, por la que se establece el Programa Estatal de Seguridad Operacional para la Aviación Civil y se modifica la Ley 21/2003, de 7 de julio, de Seguridad Aérea.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2011-4116)


26.- Ministerio de Trabajo e Inmigración (BOE de 09/03/2011 - Sección III)
Resolución de 7 de marzo de 2011, de la Dirección General de Trabajo, por la que se registra y publica el laudo arbitral por el que se establece el II Convenio colectivo profesional de los controladores de tránsito aéreo en la Entidad Pública Empresarial Aeropuertos Españoles y Navegación Aérea.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2011-4372)

27.- Ministerio de la Presidencia (BOE de 01/07/2011 - Sección I)
Orden PRE/1802/2011, de 24 de junio, por la que se introducen modificaciones de carácter técnico en el Reglamento de Circulación Aérea, aprobado por Real Decreto 57/2002, de 18 de enero, relativas a la seguridad de los servicios de tránsito aéreo.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2011-11268)


28.- Jefatura del Estado (BOE de 30/08/2011 - Sección I)
Real Decreto-ley 11/2011, de 26 de agosto, por el que se crea la Comisión de Regulación Económica Aeroportuaria, se regula su composición y funciones, y se modifica el régimen jurídico del personal laboral de Aena.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2011-14221)

29.- Ministerio de Fomento (BOE de 30/09/2011 - Sección I)
Real Decreto 1238/2011, de 8 de septiembre, por el que se regula el servicio de dirección en la plataforma aeroportuaria.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2011-15357)

30.- Ministerio de Fomento (BOE de 14/10/2011 - Sección I)
Resolución de 11 de octubre de 2011, de la Dirección de la Agencia Estatal de Seguridad Aérea, por la que se regula el procedimiento de canje de licencias, habilitaciones y anotaciones de controladores civiles de tránsito aéreo, en relación con el Real Decreto 1516/2009, de 2 de octubre, por el que se regula la licencia comunitaria de controlador de tránsito aéreo.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2011-16115)

31.- Ministerio de Fomento (BOE de 25/11/2011 - Sección III)
Resolución de 15 de noviembre de 2011, de la Dirección de Seguridad de Aeropuertos y Navegación Aérea de la Agencia Estatal de Seguridad Aérea, por la que se delega en Aena la potestad de renovar la anotación de unidad en las licencias de controlador de tránsito aéreo.
Más... (Referencia BOE-A-2011-18580)

[Lssar]

As for the second, today at 16:00 CET two spanish atcos will stand before the european petittion comittee to report on the gross violation of european directives by the spanish government as they completely disregard the obligation of previous safety studies prior to any important modification ... something that never happened with all the changes done since 5th feb 2010 and afterwards.

You can follow the live broadcast at:

Live Broadcast (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/ep-live/en/committees/video?event=20120227-1500-COMMITTEE-PETI&vodtype=Live)

It will start at 15:30Z

[pamplinas]

Following Daermon's line I would like to stress the sense of grievance we're being filled with. Not only Ferronats' offer, for those who dare to stay in those towers, includes less than half of the salary we've got, they also wipe out every single condition of our collective agreement (no social benefits, less holidays with no right to choose them, more shifts, less breaks...). There is no way you could consider that a real offer. In fact, we've learned from an insider that Ferronats is not willing to contract any of the current staff at all. Well, actually they would gladly recruit just one OJTI atco per tower in order to ease the transition process, but in the event that more than one atco should accept that offer, they would be fired as soon as posible with no severance pay.


This is an unprecedented case in Spain, where, as Daermon said, the law states that in such a subrogation case, the new company is binded to offer all workers to continue on their duties with the same conditions they had with the old one. Yes, we're appealing against all this insanity, but that takes a long time and we've got little faith left in justice.


And now we learn that they are offering better conditions to foreing atcos. No wonder, I hardly believed any NATS atco would accept the ****ty conditions they showed us. (BTW, I'd appreciate if any of you could be brave enough to post here how much exactly they are offering you).

Well, anyway, this is indeed what I call a busting strategy. Go on, take your part in it, if you wish. Don't blame me if you get labelled.


(PD Daermon, if you really think that moving from LECU to LECM is a blessing (precisely nowadays), then it's you the one who may be from the "old guard" ;) Sure, it's far better than moving to another region, but it's still a dirty trick. Cheers.)

[radarman]

Pamplinas,

BTW, I'd appreciate if any of you could be brave enough to post here how much exactly they are offering you

I believe any NATS controller accepting secondment to Spain will retain his UK salary, plus all sorts of accomodation and travelling allowances, for the duration of his stay.

[Out The Gap]

So, Pamplinas & Daermon, am I right in assuming that you two are, among others, in the unfortunate position of being told by Aena that your salaries will be slashed by more than 50% if you decide to stay in your current towers and 'defect' to FerroNATS? And that maybe even worse, you are also unable to move at the drop of a hat to wherever Aena decides you are most needed, in order to keep your current conditions??

I've read some of the leyes quoted by you Daermon, and pardon my shallowness here, but can you please reiterate how they will affect an incoming FerroNATS ATCO/OJTI? Is this the 'legal framework' that you refer to in your last post? If so, I assume then that this infracción of delaying, inhibiting or refusing the training/endorsement of any of the 150 successful students (and possibly more to come), and the resultant severe penalties, apply to OJTIs across the board, be they Aena, ex-Aena, FerroNATS, Saerco?

Whatever salary you are facing, should you or others transfer from Aena to FerroNATS, I firmly believe that equality should apply across the board and that your pay and conditions should not be a cent or hour less than that of an incoming FerroNATS employee in the same increment of the same grade, wherever they come from. Inequality will only breed animosity. An idealistic/naive point of view you might think, but if the ship is going to sink (or hopefully float!) then everyone should go down with it.

Regarding Radarman's last comment, thats interesting food for thought, as I do not work for NATS and so would not be retaining my current salary and conditions if I made the move... which I think after reading this thread is looking highly unlikely.

[Daermon ATC]

@ Pamplinas
Ok, you got me there... I'd believe moving from a small tower with only visual traffic to the main ACC in Spain (while being able to stay in the same residence) would be a blessing. I forgott that the situation at LECM is not precisely one of a constructive, healthy work environment so correction accepted ;)

@ Out of the Gap
Not quite, but the confusion is understandable. I'm not working on one of the towers currently under the chopper but I believe that if the privatisation goes on, mine would be one of the next. In any case I do have friends on those towers so the situation is basically the same for me.

As for the laws I linked, they apply to all air traffic controllers in Spain, not only Aena's. I would make the guess that if you'd fail somebody at the instruction you would not be faced with these punishments since they were created aimed at Aena's staff... but my point is, you could. :ooh:

Ah, by the way, I agree 100% that if I go looking for a job I am accepting the terms and conditions offered by my new employer... but how about my current job being sold out? If we were to apply directly your suggestion then any management who thought their salaries too high could just create a "new" company, sell the old one to the new one and then offer their workers a 90% cut on their salaries as it is a "new" company... (by the way, this is just happening at Iberia with the creation of Iberia Express).

In any case I believe that any job should be paid its value... and I believe that 30k euros (before taxes) is not an appropriate salary for an air traffic controller, even one with not much traffic. In my book, if you want control, then put an atco and pay his/her wages accordingly. If you want information only, get a fiso and pay a lower salary. But what is not acceptable in my book is wanting to provide control while paying as for a fiso.

@ Radarman
I expected as much, it wouldn't make any sense for any Nats staff to move here if not being kingly rewarded for it... I'm just surprised that FerroNats had that kind of money available... I think everybody has his price and even I could be persuaded to work in Irak or Afghanistan... but the salary increase I would demand would make that a non-starter from a business perspective :E

[Out The Gap]

Thanks for the info Daermon. Out of curiosity, could you give me a rough idea of the pre-December 2010 basic Aena salary for a non-radar-rated Tower ATCO, in an airport of say less than 100,000 movements annually, before any overtime was added on? Also, are there not some quiet Spanish airports with less than 1000 movements per month, that could realisitically be AFISO-only operated, and be paid accordingly?

And Pamplinas, in relation to your previous post, I find it hard to believe what your insider has told you... that FerroNATS do not intend contracting any of the current Aena staff.... Surely, they would find it very difficult to find enough candidates to replace all the Aena staff, especially with such poor salaries. Even taking volunteers from their own NATS pool in the UK, do they have such a surplus of ATCOs/OJTIs/Supervisors to fill the gap?? I sincerely doubt it.

Finally, on the subject of Saerco, does anyone know if their ATCOs, who have gone to complete a course in Prague, are student cadets or previously-rated controllers? Just curious.. :hmm:

[aldegar]

Agree with Daermon and Pamplinas. I'll just add two more reasons why current AENA ATCOs have to be very careful before they choose to stay with FERRONATS:

- I've read the T&Cs offered and it's not completely true that their salary will be 30k to 40k gross (40k for ATCOs with +7 years experience). To be more precise, that is the MAXIMUM salary, and there are many supplements included in that maximum specified salary: productivity, punctuality and attendance amongst others. But they don't specify how much each supplement is worth. So you may think you'll earn 30k gross at the end of the year only to find out you only get, for example, 15k gross because you arrived late once, you missed four days of work because you were in bed with flu and you were not productive enough. By the way, how do you measure productivity in a twr? (delays?, a subjective report from your boss?...). So, there's no way to know for sure what the salary will be, quite risky.

- Big changes taking place in Spain with the new government affecting ALL workers (not only ATCOs). With the new laws about to come out, it's better to keep your current contract than signing a new contract after these changes take place (with whatever new company/employer), since you will loose privileges from the old legislative framework. Basically, changes will imply that firing a worker will be much simpler, faster, and almost free for the employer.



aldegar,
surely you are a 'mobile-grade'.


Of course, I'm perfectly aware of that. I was just reffering to the current situation (privatization of the twrs), but changes will soon arrive to ACCs too and I know it won't be long before my turn could come to face being forced to move... if not being fired or leaving.



PD: By the way, is there anybody from FERRONATS that could bring some light to this thread?

[Daermon ATC]

could you give me a rough idea of the pre-December 2010 basic Aena salary for a non-radar-rated Tower ATCO, in an airport of say less than 100,000 movements annually, before any overtime was added on?I will, but as the bottom line at pprune says, you have no way to know who I am and therefore you can not verify if this is correct.
Therefore I'll provide you with the tools to check what the current salary would be. That basic salary hasn't changed much... the catch was precisely the overtime which allowed that number to double or even triple.

This (http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2011/03/09/pdfs/BOE-A-2011-4372.pdf) is the arbiter's resolution and current framework for our work relation with Aena. In page 66 you can see how the different locations are categorised for the purpose of advancing professional levels.
Page 101 shows how the salary is calculated and page 140 shows the tables that formula uses.

Answering your question then, I'd say 3.000 Euros / month (after taxes).


Also, are there not some quiet Spanish airports with less than 1000 movements per month, that could realisitically be AFISO-only operated, and be paid accordingly?You just scored bullseye :) , this is precisely the issue.
This (http://www.aena-aeropuertos.es/csee/Satellite?Language=ES_ES&pagename=estadisticas) is the link to the official statistics from Aena. As you can see in 2011 there were 16 airports with less than 100.000 passengers (also 16 with less than 10.000 movements... although not the same airports).
If this were a business decission, you would have to make that choice and remove control service from several airports. This was done for example at Burgos, El Hierro and La Gomera. However since this is a political issue it is a hard job to explain to these provinces why they are being downgraded... not to mention to ask the question why there was an airport in the first place. :E

There are certainly some airports which are a social requirement (I'd say each of the Canary or Balearic Islands needs one) but others is just political vote-gathering. The most recent example would be the one at Castellón, which hasn't opened yet and so far is only a huge waste of money with Valencia at about 1 hour drive.

When the control service at El Hierro was removed, it created a great deal of social discontent so that finally the government decided to "upgrade" the afisos there and now they provide control service. Therefore it is understandable from a political point of view that they don't want to remove control service from other airports but instead want to provide control while paying the same as for fis... :ugh:

Finally, on the subject of Saerco, does anyone know if their ATCOs, who have gone to complete a course in Prague, are student cadets or previously-rated controllers? Interesting question ... so far Saerco has made their own selection process of previously uneperienced people to send them to Prague for training. They have refused to hire experienced controllers or those poor guys who paid Senasa 50k for a student license. Speculation (http://www.limaeco.aero/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16422) goes that their profit is not really providing control services at 3 minor canary airports (+ the closed one at Castellón) but rather at providing training... 200 trainees at Senasa paying 50k each would seem to validate that.. :E

[Out The Gap]

Thanks again for all the info Daermon, much appreciated!* I take it then, from your overall attitude, that you would be more than willing to escape abroad if the opportunity arose?

*

Just wondering also, if FerroNATS fail to get enough transferring ATCOs from Aena and fail to poach enough ATCOs from NATS or wherever, could a similar overtime situation return?* (thus boosting overall salaries - and hours worked - of those remaining controllers brave enough to stick it out).* Or would those student cadets (unlucky enough not able to escape and get work elsewhere abroad) be trained in to fill the shortfall, regardless of their ability/performance?

*

Regarding the quieter airports, (although I know this is fast-forwarding 5-10 years from now), I reckon any which has less than 50,000 annual movements (of which there are currently a lot in Spain) would be vulnerable to Remote Virtual Tower (RVT) technology, and the resultant significant number of job losses that it involves... albeit bringing a huge financial saving to whatever contractor is then in charge.* Anyway, thats another day's topic!

[Lssar]

Thanks again for all the info Daermon, much appreciated!* I take it then, from your overall attitude, that you would be more than willing to escape abroad if the opportunity arose?

Hi OTG!

Actually, there are dozens Spanish ATCO´s willing to scape if the opportunity arises, count me for that too!

Many of us are actively searching for a job abroad (sending CV´s, emails, letters of interest ...), and believe me, the salary is not a crucial factor: in my case, my family is what matters, and I think things can only get worse in Spain (yesterday another 112.000 more unemployed were accounted for, now over 5.200.000).


Just wondering also, if FerroNATS fail to get enough transferring ATCOs from Aena and fail to poach enough ATCOs from NATS or wherever, could a similar overtime situation return?* (thus boosting overall salaries - and hours worked - of those remaining controllers brave enough to stick it out).* Or would those student cadets (unlucky enough not able to escape and get work elsewhere abroad) be trained in to fill the shortfall, regardless of their ability/performance?

Overtime, as it was until 2 years ago, is not possible any more due to the new laws that limit it to 80 hrs. a year. This is the same for all jobs in Spain, but in the case of ATCO´s, companies can force you to work overtime if it is necessary to guarantee the continuity of the service. When the training of new ATCO´s in Spain was privatized, the infamous former minister Mr. Blanco assured that one of his goals was to have hundreds of unemployed ATCO´s waiting in line to get a job. This is the current situation now, and it´s getting worse as more desperate cadets fight to get a job that would let them pay the debt caused by their training as ATCO´s in the new private schools. As Safety is no longer the main goal in our system (sadly, now it´s Productivity), you can expect companies hiring those cadets you mentioned, "regardless of their ability/performance" ...

As someone said before, wanna trade places ...?

[aldegar]

the infamous former minister Mr. Blanco assured that one of his goals was to have hundreds of unemployed ATCO´s waiting in line to get a job.

To be more precise, he wanted at least THREE THOUSANDS unemployed ATCOs in Spain:

Blanco se jacta de que formará a 3.000 nuevos controladores "para tenerlos en el paro" - elConfidencial.com (http://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/blanco-sugiere-formara-controladores-vayan-20101215-72606.html)

[Daermon ATC]

As you can see, there are many of us who would change workplaces without a second thought...

As pointed by Lssar, the current work situation in Spain is very dire. Leaving atc work for any other occupation is very difficult... and yet I know several cases where some colleagues have done it, either to work as a pilot, as engineers or even informatic consultant.

The other option would be to move to another country to work as atc. I thought of Canada but they are no longer accepting trained foreingers. Within Europe almost any change would involve a loss of money even with similar terms due to different cost of life. Nevertheless I would accept that even within reasonable parameters.

My problem is not really my current salary or working hours (which I believe are good given my current salary/workload ratio... but I do not work at an ACC or LEMD/LEBL, where the huge burnouts are) but rather the other stuff not currently mentioned.

Aena can do with me whatever they want at any time and with perfect legal cover. I will not say I'm a modern-era slave, I am fully aware that the mayority in spain (not to mention other countries) would kill for my job. Nevertheless I do exist as a property of the state who can do with me as it pleases... my liberty remains only to go away... and even that only when I'm not needed.

Given the current legal framework, If I did walk away if my tower was about to be privatized I could be forced to ensure training for replacements, just as those over 57 were forced to do so in 2010, when they were removed from control positions by law and some left the company to work somewhere else.

Another thing that has nothing to do with money but is also one that would make me gladly leave this country is my current branding as a criminal. When meeting new people and asked about my job I always say "technician at the airport" or when pressed some vague terms including "air navigation". Saying that I'm air traffic controller will put me automatically on the bad side of that person who has heard for the last two years that I'm an egoist, robbing poor people by making air navigation costs double so that I can reap a fat salary for working 10 hours a month. :ugh:

When my children are old enough to go to school I will have to teach them likewise or they will be constant targets for bullying. :{

I have written to Nats and to Ireland, got in both cases polite refusals... I've heard that DFS does not require german for upper airspace so will probably try there now that Canada is also off-limits. I might consider even Dubai or thereabouts although my wife won't like it at all... and I'm not currently so desperate as one colleague who went to work to Irak. :sad:

Just curious, I heard there was a no-poaching agreement within the mayor ANSP in Europe so that they would not take controllers from one another... anybody heard anything about it?

[mixture]

Daermon ATC

Just curious, I heard there was a no-poaching agreement within the mayor ANSP in Europe so that they would not take controllers from one another... anybody heard anything about it?

I'm no employment lawyer, but my understanding of non-solicitation clauses is that they are there to prevent direct approaches or "poaching".

If you are merely responding to a job advert that company B posted in the public domain for all to see, then company A will likely have little case against you or company B.

[Out The Gap]

Thanks again for all the info guys!

@ Lssar: Silly me, I should have remembered the 80 hour cap on overtime from last year. Equating that to (por exemplo) 10 eight-hour shifts per year... yes, its a dramatic reduction from those crazy times when some of you were working (from what I recall reading) up to 28 days per month... but 80 hours wouldn't be too far from what some ATCOs only do in other countries. At least now, I guess you should have a lot more quality time off?

@ Daermon: Surely nobody believes you only work 10 hours a month?? I recall back in 2010, that it was a clear struggle to expose through the so called "media" just how dangerous your workplace - and consequently Spanish airspace - had become, due to you guys being ridiculously overworked and understaffed etc. Has still none of this leaked through to the public? Are the Spanish media so effective in hiding the truth (especially if/when rewarded nicely by a certain Ministerio de Fomento) or is it a case that the public - some of them at least - did find out the truth but didn't want to know about it, as the country is en crisis and literally on its knees, many of them have no hope of a job, and right now that your current salary, in their eyes, is actually a damn good salary in Spain, for which you should be very grateful..??

Yes, your salaries may have been slashed by more than 50%... from the crazy overtime that you got before, when you guys were, lets face it, the best paid on the planet, to what may well be very soon one of the lesser paid in Europe. But thats looking at it on the surface, at the figures alone. You mentioned the all-important thing... cost of living, relative to what you earn. Are there not many places in Spain where you can rent a furnished 2 or 3 bed apartment for €500 a month, where you can have a 3 course meal for €15 or less, where a quality rioja costs less than €5? Just examples, mind you.

But I think you've mentioned that already, that its less the salary thats at stake here, and more the threatening bully-boy attitude of Aena and the government. The risk of licence loss, personal fines and lack of severance pay are a much bigger stick to worry about. I would have no problem tolerating some short term austerity (which seems inevitable for all of us), if it meant that my job was secure and not under threat from a Blanco-type dragon breathing down my neck!

As for working abroad, I would totally agree with mixture. I know a lot of ATCOs recently joined - and more on the way to - Abu Dhabi ACC, for those of you Area-rated. They are actively recruiting, tax-free salary starts at roughly €10k a month, and the life in Dubai (where they commute from) is a hell of a lot more westernised than a lot of people realise.. so your wife might just like it! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

[suolarium]

hello D,
nice to meet you. I've just red some information about ATCO situation in Spain.
I've noticed that you are very informed about the condition of Spanish controllers.
I am an italian military radar approach ATCO and I am looking for a new work experience in Europe.Last December I sent my CV to Ferronats in Spain,and on February the 28th I went to Madrid for a face to face interview.Anywere,I went there on holiday with my family,so I decided to do the inteview in that occasion.
I did the interview with NATS personnel and I found it interesting.At the and ,they offered me an annual income of about 55/60 euro(gross salary).
They also offered me a permanent contract.
Obviously,I made my proposal against to accept with an higher income of about 70,000 euro.......and with a possibility to work in a bigger airport well connected with Italy.....In that occasion I asked also the possibility to keep all my rating update: such as radar.
from a quick read of the forums I discovered that the situation of controllers in spain is not good.Do you have further news on what's going on over there....thanks a lot .

[Daermon ATC]

@ Suolarium:
I am a spanish ATC but I wouldn't consider myself too informed. Nevertheless I'll try to share what I've got.

Ferronats got 10 of the 13 towers offered: Alicante, Valencia, Ibiza, Sabadell, Sevilla, Jerez, Melilla, Cuatro Vientos, Vigo and La Coruña.
Sabadell and Cuatro Vientos are only for VFR flights and I believe Melilla has only connections to mainland Spain. I'm not sure if there are any flights to Italy but probably your best choices would be Alicante, Valencia or Sevilla.

Neither of these airports has any radar rating. This was intentional so that they could be staffed with freshly minted atco-students from a basic course of a few weeks for 30.000 €/year.

Your salary is in line with a basic one at a small twr with Aena (you'll have about 35% tax rate with that salary) so I'll take it that it is an upgrade from your current one considering that the military does not usually pay too well, at least in Spain. You know Ferronats only has 5 years + option to another one? Do you have plans in case you have to return to italy?

I'm not sure if you are familiar with the current legal framework for atcos in Spain? This is really the important issue since you would be subject to all of them... except the arbitration between Usca (spanish atc labor union) and Aena which in some aspects softened some of the harsher edges... and there are a quite a few.

I'd have a look at this thread as well as another one: http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/479206-spanish-atcos-earning-800-000-two-years-ago-anything-changed.html

There are links to several of these laws and regulations so you can get an idea of what you are getting into :ooh:

Mind you, I'm not trying to convince you not to apply. I'm sure Ferronats will eventually find someone, even if they have to go to Australia (nothing wrong with them, I was just referring to the distance) but I wouldn't advise my friends to take this job so I'll try to let other people know the situation so that they can decide for themselves.

Please feel free to come back with any questions.

[pamplinas]

Let me try to sum up the facts:


- Salary.This privatization process includes 13 twrs (10 for Ferronats and 3 for Saerco). Although the cost for each tower or even each company is unknown, AENA will pay about €16 million a year for the whole bunch. Considering management costs about 35%-40% and a margin for benefits of, at least, another 10% we have roughly 8 million left for paying salaries. Divide that between the staff needed (at least 150 controllers) and you get less than 55.000€ gross annual income per atc. So I believe there is little margin for bargaining. At this point I shall also have to remind you that your income tax as a worker and resident in Spain will be not less than 35%.

- Permanent contract. There is no such conception in Spanish Labor Law anymore. Since last february’s legal reform, any company may reduce any signed T&Cs or even layoff workers with only claiming any significant reduction in their benefits forecast. BTW, the assignment of this twrs is for 5 years plus a possible extension of one more year. After that no one can guarantee these companies will continue providing any navigation service in Spain.

- Radar rating. Forget about working with it. None of those twrs will provide app service. The only thing that AENA has consistently made clear during the last 2 years is that they reserve the provision of area and approach control for the state company. This is due to severe legal, instruction and staff limitations. There’s also little to no chance for you to eventually sign for AENA, since all this privatization process is precisely seeking to move all current Spanish controllers to ACCs, thus making unnecessary further recruitments of radar rated atcs in the next 5 years or more.

- Language. Hope you have a good level of Spanish. Although you may use English in frequency regularly, many VFR pilots won’t (and some of the airports move more VFR than IFR traffics). And of course all training with the local staff will be held in Spanish. But that’s not even the most important point: imagine all the vital conversations you’ll need to hold with many workers of the airport (fire brigade, marshals, flight plan office staff, engineers…). They will be working for another company and none of them are expected to speak English, but you must understand them perfectly or your job will be harsh.

- Transition process. Your instructors for the local rating should be the outgoing atc staff. What you may be missing is that they are not willing to. This process means they are going to leave their workplace, many of them will be forced to move out really far away with their families and so on. Also it must be noted that not only the new ANSP have shown their intention not to comply with the only valuable option the Labor Law gives to the current staff, that is, the complete subrogation with the new company (maintaining their T&Cs), they have offered even less salary to the locals than to foreign applicants. If that wasn’tenough, the government is enforcing all current controllers in these twrs to obtain the OJTI rating and threats with huge fines to anyone not cooperating with the training of the new workers (obtaining the OJTI rating and working as an instructor is, and should always be, voluntary across all Europe). Some call this process a perfect example of dumping, I personally think the term piracy fits better here. Thus you may imagine what kind of environment you will find in these twrs. The locals are really pissed off and I guess every person participating in this mischief will be received with great disdain, if not open hostility.

- Other labor considerations. You will be working up to 1670 hours annually plus 80 additional extra time (voluntarily?, who knows…), on shifts devised by the company alone (and they have scarce legal limitations on this matter), only 30 days off (again, whenever the company decides), no social benefits, no union…

- And last but not least. I strongly recommend not to sign any contract as atc in Spain before reading and fully understanding the “Ley de Seguridad Aérea” (AirSafety Law). Wiping out any trace of the “just culture” it allows fines from 90.000€ to €225.000 to atcs for simply any unjustified action they may consider affects the traffic flow or labor discipline.

So far as I can recall. Feel free to post any further questions or comments. Also, I would appreciate if any of you could share any new information about talks with Ferronats or about any colleague joining them.

Ciao.

[Out The Gap]

Hi Daermon, are you by any chance working at one of these towers-to-be-privatised? Obviously I'm not asking you to specify where, but it would appear that you are somewhat biased and (understandably or otherwise) in fact trying to convince outsiders not to apply. That said, your insight here is hugely welcome and much appreciated.

The salary figures you mention don't appear all that bad for some of the quieter airports such as Vigo and A Coruna, where the number of daily movements would appear to be no more than 30 or 40. However I'm not so sure those salaries would appeal in the likes of Alicante or Valencia, with many times more traffic there. But then again, the cost of living in many parts of Spain is quite cheap compared to elsewhere in Europe or elsewhere.

If FerroNATS fail to win the contract again in 5/6 years time, I would assume any outsider will have the option of remaining an employee of NATS at least and working at any other of their ventures around the world (not necessarily in the UK), or of remaining at the privatised Spanish tower and working with the new contractor (and whatever conditions they enforce)... which is a very similar choice to what certain Aena employees are facing now.

[Out The Gap]

Well, well, well... whatever about Daermon being light to moderately biased and posting somewhat objectively, snr. pamplinas here is clearly "full-on Mr. Intimidator don't-touch-my-tower!" biased with his so-called facts..

There is no such thing as a permanent contract in Spain?? What has Rajoy's new government just done recently? Are they not clearly in favour of more permanent (instead of temporary) contracts, but without any redundancy/severance pay should an employee be dismissed, as in many other countries.Said permanent contracts are, from the outset, permanent.. as long as you don't screw up. Fact!

Regarding holidays, from what I've heard... FerroNATS are offering 30 holidays, not including your normal off/rest days in a 6-on/3-off type cycle and not including 12 bank/national holidays. Fact!

Regarding the transition... how can outgoing Aena controllers refuse to OJT any incoming FerroNATS staff, or show any form of resistance, disdain or hostility when you yourself quoted punishment such as "fines from 90.000€ to €225.000 to atcs for just any unjustified action they may consider affects the traffic flow or labor discipline", or as Daermon quoted here before, personal fines of between $250,000 and $4.5m (ridiculous and heavy-handed as that may seem!) and immediate loss of ATC licence? Do you honestly think pamplinas that your hostility will be tolerated? There are more bullying and anti-harrassment policies in force nowadays than any of us can shake a stick at... lawyers and solicitors will be circling like vultures outside these towers. The fact, pamplinas, is that your intimidation and 'hostility' will not be tolerated... the sooner you and your colleagues realise that, the better! Fact!!

Un saludo :ok:

[Daermon ATC]

@ Out of the Gap:

Nope, I'm not working at one of those towers although this being a small world I obviously have good friends there. I can't avoid being biased given that I'm a spanish atco and thus I have had to live through "interesting times" for the last few years... wouldn't wish it to any of you.

I try not to hide the fact that I am biased and try to provide information so that anybody can make their own informed choices, a luxury I was not given. I have stated as my personal opinion that I wouldn't advise any friend to become atco in Spain so when I present the facts that lead me to that conclusion it is unavoidable that I sound biased. Nevertheless I try to provide all the facts so that anybody can make up their own mind.

As far as mr. Pamplinas is concerned, he may be a bit more vehement than myself but rest assured that we are of the same opinion... except where he states that the maximum fine atcos face in Spain is 225.000 €... please refer to my post #19 in this same thread where I have linked the modification to the Law raising the possible fines to 4.500.000 €.

Answering a few of your statements:

permanent contract: Your definition of permanent seems to be somewhat different than my own. Avoiding conflict over specific words I suppose we can agree that now if your company wanted to fire you for whatever reasons (e.g. earning 55.000 while the rest of your twr earns 30.000), they would have no legal or monetary obstacle to do so.

salary: I agree that for a small tower it is quite acceptable, in fact similar to entry salary at Aena as stated before. However there are no promotion possibilities so that would be the maximum you could expect from FerroNats... and I doubt any new provider after that would be willing to pay more.

holidays: The error here is you do not have those bank holidays since airports are open through the year. In Aena we have 45 days vacations precisely to reflect that fact. In any case it doesn't really matter, the maximum hours per year are 1670 so expect to work close to that regardless of how many days you have off.

OJTI: Being an instructor is an additional responsibility and as such it should be the choice of each individual atco if they want to take that promotion. Being this Spain, all atcos have been ordered to "voluntarily" apply for that rating. The exam is done via computer and it is not possible to fail it, even if you try as you can not get to the next screen unless you put the correct answer. Errors are not recorded.

While I don't see any need for hostility towards the replacements I can understand a certain resentment. In any case I'd just give them the training and get out of there.

[pamplinas]

So then, OTG, should we consider “what you’ve heard” is the real “Fact!”?

I’d really think you’d better know what you’re talking about before shouting out.

Have you read the new Labor Law? What do you call a permanent a contract? Do you know now our T&Cs can be severely lowered or you can even be fired anytime with a minimal severance pay just because your company claims it is expecting lower benefits in the next months (regardless you screw it up or not, believe me)?

Atcs in Spain do not have any national holidays. AENA’s T&C includes 45 holidays. That has nothing to do with Ferronats, who does not offer more than the strict legal minima in this subject: 30 holidays (that’s what I originally meant). Of course you may expect some kind of cycle with the corresponding days off, but you’re going to be disappointed if you are thinking anything “normal” will apply here.

No need for lawyers. Even though there is little the staff can do to oppose with all the legal framework they’ve built to enforce this process, it’s funny how the whole thing is actually based in two dire violations of the current law: they will not respect the T&Cs of the current staff and they will enforce them to request the OJTI rating and to provide the necessary instruction forcibly. With such a scene, do you really think anything you sign today with Ferronats will be observed five years after? Don’t make me laugh.

Anyway I’m playing no intimidation role here, we’re all adults, right? I was only trying to describe the environment likely to be found in those places. Now it’s up to you to show any empathy and solidarity or to join the bunch of mercenaries that are going to do CANSO’s dirty job. I’d love to see the warm welcome you’d give them in such a situation. Well maybe we’ll even have the chance to see such a thing happen in your workplace in the future. Please let us know if you really believe this is the way things must be done.

Beware the vultures!

[McNulty]

- Language. Hope you have a good level of Spanish. Although you may use English in frequency regularly, many VFR pilots won’t (and some of the airports move more VFR than IFR traffics). And of course all training with the local staff will be held in Spanish. But that’s not even the most important point: imagine all the vital conversations you’ll need to hold with many workers of the airport (fire brigade, marshals, flight plan office staff, engineers…). They will be working for another company and none of them are expected to speak English, but you must understand them perfectly or your job will be harsh.

There are extremely highly paid controllers in BCN and MAD who have a very poor level of English. When things get a little bit non standard (thunderstorms for example), when controllers really need to understand what pilots are requesting, we are often greeted with silence and stuttering by confused, out of depth controllers. Like recently in Spanish airspace i was requesting both heading deviations, plus CLIMB (due to little known phenomena called mountains) - the idiot controller went quiet and then started speaking Spanish to an Iberia.

It is total madness what's happening down there, and sadly only a crash will lead to an investigation that will uncover the true depth of the crisis that is the appalling standard of Spanish air traffic controllers.

[radarman]

Pamplinas,

You asked for any additional information on the Ferronats set-up. I understand that NATS have seconded one of their Gibraltarian controllers to Jerez to take part in training the new controllers. Apparently he is currently undergoing training to validate at LEJR as a tower controller (on a UK licence). Once validated he will be part of the team training the new Ferronats guys. I would be interested to know whether as an employee of NATS (UK) he will be subject to all or any of the new draconian laws applying to Spanish ATCO's. When all the new team are in place he will return to work at LXGB.

[Akhorahil]

McNulty the spanish law says all controllers have an english lvl4 at least. No exam, no training, no... nothing, just the law says it. Don´t blame the poor worker, blame the potitician that approved that law!

You should have seen the exams for the OJT in those towers. For example, one question, answer is YES or NO. You choose NO, and it´s wrong, so the computers stays on that question once and again until you press YES... and all the controllers passed the exam for OJT!!!

I could tell you more examples, but no reason, as you will blame the controllers anyway.

And radarman, as long as he is working in Spain he can be punished acording to spanish law. Anyway tell him to hurry, we want the controllers of that twr in the ACC as soon as possible so our work time can be reduced.

Cya along your flight plan route :)

[McNulty]

Akhorahil:

I brought up the appalling standard of English amongst Spanish controllers in response to his claim that a less than fluent standard of Spanish amongst incoming controllers could be a cause for safety concerns. OK - so you are only concerned with safety when it is a by product of something that is threatening your terms and conditions?

And also Akhorahil, you acknowledge the fact that Spanish ATC have poor English, then why don't you and your colleagues start a protest against that? It seems all Spanish ATC give a flying f*ck about is their pay and terms and conditions, and really couldn't care less about safety. This is the reason you get absolutely no sympathy from pilots on here.

[Sonnendec]

McNulty, be serious: does´t matter what we say, we will NEVER get your sympathy. :ugh:

[Out The Gap]

Daermon, thank you once again for enlightening us further on the bottomless can of worms that is Spanish ATC, and indeed your own predicament, wherever you are.

Not sure if you spotted it but I actually did refer to your quote of €4.5m in my last post... I'm still speechless at the thought that any government could expect any citizen to pay such a fine, regardless of how many years they were wrongly earning a footballer's salary. Nevertheless Spain is a monarchy and it seems that whatever the dictator-like hatchet says, the hatchet gets... incredibly unjust as it may be.

Firing people.. surely this cannot be done unless you breach certain clear guidelines..? Not just because you rightly earn more than your junior staff, who are just starting off in their careers, while you have 10+ years experience and multiple ratings...? Although €30k doesn't in all honesty appeal overwhelmingly, considering that some of these student controllers could very soon find themselves in some busier tower environments. But hey, Spain is obviously en crisis and employers are calling the shots and able to drive salaries offensively low.

Promotion prospects... apart from becoming a Tower Chief at a busier airport, thats probably as far as the FerroNATS cul-de-sac goes. One would need to go elsewhere within NATS itself methinks to get any further promotion. (Don't forget that in another 10 years, Remote Virtual Tower technology could well be the norm across much of the developed world, and in NATS' case, looking remotely after at least 40 of the airports in Spain from a remote barn in Wales! ..or something like that).

Bank holidays... is there not, like in other countries, a system whereby, if you work a bank/national/church holiday, you get a day-in-lieu or some sort of overtime? As you rightly say, at least now there is a cap on the annual number of ordinary and overtime hours you can work, unlike before, so one should have adequate time off..

OJTIs... well that system employed by Aena is clearly plain wrong; not everyone is suited to being or wants to be an instructor, so it should not be forced. I assume in any case there is some form of remuneration for being one?


Pamplinas! Apologies if I came across as 'shouting out', but your attitude has at times come across as intimidatory in previous posts.

Yes, I have understood enough of the labour law to realise that a permanent contract should in theory be just that.. permanent.. and workers can be disposed of with nil, or as you say minimal pay... but only for a valid offence. Otherwise, a court of law should surely come into play. In any case, are you only referring here to your own vulnerable T&Cs with Aena, as ruthless as they have become against ATCOs, or are you referring to every other Spanish employer also? That they too can equally dismiss employees unfairly, for no valid reason?? If that is so, then obviously whats 'permanent' today, can be gone tomorrow, and the system as a whole is a complete farce. For example, la policía in their various forms... do they, among other government departments, not have permanent contracts?

I've mentioned the bank/national holidays earlier to Daermon, but would still like to know if you are reimbursed for working them. If the 1670 (+ 80 overtime) annual hour limits are adhered to, then that is as much a 'normality' as anyone can expect, and should ensure that staff are not crazily overworked as before.

Regarding empathy and solidarity... don't start me! Yes pamplinas, I agree with you that this is definitely not the ideal solution to solving the problem (but what is???), by 'ousting' staff and families out of their home environments, in order that they may somehow struggle to maintain their (in most cases inflated and greed-driven, albeit earned-by-the-clock) salaries. (Maybe when the good times rolled, you all bought mansions, yachts and sportscars, building up massive debt, or maybe you all just got too used to a good thing... and then when the gravy train ran low on fuel and when the footballer salaries were slashed, you behaved like spoiled brats, wanting to keep all your candy).

I mean, the cold reality here is that Aena, through their own gross mis-management and through collective agreements with the union USCA, built up a debt of €1.2 billion (possibly the largest ever debt for any ANSP per head employee), €785 million of which was attributable to some 2300 ATCO salaries alone! Who's fault was this pamplinas??

Surely then a radical overhaul must begin somewhere?? Either in the form of privatisation starting from the 'grass roots' of the Control Towers... or else widespread dismissal a la Reagan style, as eloquently posted (in the LEBL EIN A320 thread), by Heathrow Director who, like many of us, is "all for workers rights and fair representation of workers but what you had here was a bunch of highly paid public servants who milked the system dry and when the country was facing financial ruin tried to hold it to ransom and continue to do so. For that they should, as has been said above, all be sacked. Reagan style." And then all be re-hired again at lower salaries. (Not necessarily as low as FerroNATS, mind you). I mean, was Zapatero, the previous prime minister, not earning something like €95k a year, according to a list of national salaries published some years back? How then can you ever justify the hundreds of thousands that you have earned over the same period? And all the while, when safety, the single most important aspect of all, suffers the most.

Sonnendec, and others like him, can complain all they want about not winning sympathy from anyone. But now its no longer about lowered terms and conditions, or even about inefficient or preferential controlling and enforcing SIDS, STARS and filed flight plan routes... its now about safety, people's lives, about forcing crews to declare PAN-PANs so that they can hope to land somewhere. I mean, seriously.. you guys have lost all chances of any sympathy vote from any dog on the street, let alone every pilot, controller and aviation enthusiast that reads this forum. Your own downfall has been your own greed, and the sooner you all realise that and come back down to austerity-stricken earth, the better for you. And the sooner you start to do your jobs properly, the better for the rest of us.


By the way, for the benefit of any non-Spanish can any of you please explain whats going on here.. Acoso laboral de Aena a los controladores del Centro de Control de Torrejón y censura informativa - YouTube (http://youtu.be/C7Wt7DfugaA) ?

[SINGAPURCANAC]

while we are waiting for explanations, I would like to ask a few questions:

-At your ACC is it allowed to arive at job at shorts and crocs'?

-colleague( i have no other suitable noun ) at the beggining of scene leaves active sector with many active ac on screen( guy saying "Antonio,Antonio...."), it is correct,I suppose?

-noise at operational room,other than faxes,strip printers and similar?

-cameras, and cell phones are allowed for use at operational room?

but i hope that explanation of situation will be equally interesting.
Who? What? and Why?

[McNulty]

Sonnendec: That's not true, when you start behaving like professionals and start prioritising safety above your pay, then I will be concerned at how you are being treated by your employer. Is it really fair on the Spanish public that you use their airspace to hold your employer, and all the airlines that fly within it to ransom for your terms and conditions?

I would have absolute sympathy and understanding, if for example, the UK controllers went on strike. Spanish ATC - not so much, it is like comparing high level professionals with a bunch of unruly school kids.

[Sonnendec]

Definately, you guys have to read more about what is happening in Spain, and not only the government side of the conflict.

My colleagues have posted some links for you to check if you are really interested, and here is one more:

http://www.atcpetition.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Waiver-of-Liability-ATCos1.pdf

As you can see, no pay raise wanted. As i said in my first post about this subject, we AGREED from the very first time with the pay cut. There´s not any salary issue in the conflict and has never been. That was solved on february the 4th, 2010. TWO YEARS AGO.

Come on guys, read the above link (it´s in english). It does´t take long.

By the way, Spain is going to be under investigation by EASA due to spanish controllers` complaints about safety degradation (thousands with absolutely no response from spanish and/or european authorities). Again, no salary conflict.

I´m amazed that the only place where you keep talking about our salary is in this forum, when it was solved more than two years ago. It´s the only question already agreed between us and the government. What do you want us to say? That we earned a lot? ok, WE DID. Are we willing to earn that much again? NO WE AREN´T. Are we protesting to get a pay raise? NO WE AREN´T. Have we agreed with the 40-50% pay cut imposed on february the 4th, 2010? YES WE HAVE. You guys can try to make us look as a bunch of greedy selfish "school kids", but that doesn´t make it true. If you are really interested in what´s going on, read more.

Best regards.

[Lssar]

Sorry ... What??!! :ugh:

[samotnik]

-At your ACC is it allowed to arive at job at shorts and crocs'?

Well, I'm not from Spain, but what's wrong with the shorts and crocs? :)

[SINGAPURCANAC]

nothing, if you work as a waiter in a coctail bar. :ok:

and to clarify some things,
I am not against spanish atcos. Furthermore I found them very friendly and excellent colleagues. We all must confees that they did great negotiations in the past , probably no one will see anything similar in any future.
But they did mistakes,as well. Unfortunatelly there is always paying time in life.

Six years without new hires, plus If I copied correctly ,no one has been hired since 2010( when problem escalate) .
If there is around 2000 atcos in Spain,and if follow "10% rule" you are short of :
8x 200= 1600

that is the "number" of atcos that you are short. That is the reason why you have problems. 150 or 200 foreign atcos wouldn't save the problem.
It will be like glass of water at big forest fire.
Neither helpfull,nor pity.

and as you could see, problem just increasing, because of negative impacts. Average atcos' age 8 years ago was lower, than it was today.

small number of available people, makes not only operational problems but managerial ones as well.
There is no enough competition for management position, so managers becomes "idiots" ( by default not by their wish or personal inability),
there is no safety ,quality, instructors and so on. Even you aren't able to produce politician atcos who are neccessary if you want to live better. Someone must bridge the gap between operational work and money. ;)

those are raesons for hundred of pages, pilot' compalints about poor service by system,not by particular atcos.
hope that it clarifies enough ....
:ok:

[samotnik]

nothing, if you work as a waiter in a coctail bar.

Sure, we all should wear uniforms and rank badges. And of course uniform caps with these tiny wings on it.

[clr4takeoff]

Quick question:
Is there any nats or foreign controller already working or on the job training yet with FerroNATS in one of those tower?

[Out The Gap]

Good question. I believe Cuatro Vientos and Sabadell are the first two to be privatised, starting around now or soon enough..?

[clr4takeoff]

Next question, anybody knows if FerroNATS is still hiring for those towers?

[aldegar]

Is there any nats or foreign controller already working or on the job training yet with FerroNATS in one of those tower?

As far as a I know, no.

anybody knows if FerroNATS is still hiring for those towers?

No idea. You should contact FerroNATS and ask them directly.

[samotnik]

So guys, what's the situation in those privatized towers? Did the terms&conditions dropped with the new atcos arriving from abroad?

[radarman]

There is a NATS controller from Gibraltar working to become one of the training team at Jerez. I understand he first has to obtain a validation at LEJR, then has to go on to qualify as an OJTI before he can start training Ferronats guys. How much of this preliminary training has been completed I don't know. Did hear a rumour that AENA was not willing to accept the OJTI endorsement on his UK licence.

[clr4takeoff]

I'm wondering if any controller has yet started to work in any of the privatized towers?

Actually, are those towers already privatized ?

So far I havn't heard a lot about the process...

[aldegar]

I don't have much information but I know for sure that training has started in GCLA (SAERCO), LELL (Ferronats) and will start in october in LEVC (Ferronats). I don't know how it's going in the rest of the privatized twrs.

From what I've heard, there are ATCOs from several nationalities (I've heard some british and polish, but not too sure about this), former spanish military controllers and spanish controllers recently qualified under the new (shorter) system.

[Fwed]

Hi
Do you know how I coul'd find informations on ICAO level 4 SPANISH.
Thanks
Fwed

[c2l]

Ow.ly - 130320_Informe FINAL Torres - Ferronats y Saerco.docx uploaded by @USCAnet (http://ow.ly/d/17Z7)

interesting read!!