BIG Announcement coming from QF? [Archive]

TIMA9X

12th Feb 2012, 16:06

I can't get through the paywall but if someone else can please cut and paste. The softening up process has clearly started.
Well, there's definitely something in the wind alright

QANTAS chief executive Alan Joyce has accused "bullying" unions of trying to unwind measures that have made Australia an open and competitive economy, and warned that a protectionist push by the labour movement could lead to more corporate failures and job losses. "Some of the union movement in this country do not realise how open the world has become, how global we've become, how competitive it's become," Mr Joyce told The Australian.
"There is this view I think out there by some of them that somehow we can go back to the pre-liberalisation and protectionism - put back in protectionism, protect industries. We know that's not the case."
Mr Joyce, who is today named as The Australian's most influential business leader, said that in fiercely competitive industries such as aviation, companies that were not "fit and capable and competitive will not survive".
He said his decision last year to ground the entire Qantas fleet to break a dispute with the unions had been positive for the airline, and its core corporate customers quickly returned to the carrier.

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2012/02/10/1226267/833706-top-50-business-650-joyce.jpg (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/top50/2012/alan-joyce-high-flyer-with-guts-aplenty/story-fnbtudzs-1226267966636)
High-flyer with guts aplenty (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/top50/2012/alan-joyce-high-flyer-with-guts-aplenty/story-fnbtudzs-1226267966636)

The Australian - Top 50 2012 Business (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/top50/2012/business)

http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2011/06/15/1226075/948777-alan-joyce.jpg (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/top50/2012/gallery-fnbtudzs-1226266876739)
Most influential in business (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/top50/2012/gallery-fnbtudzs-1226266876739)

"There was a feeling that somebody needed to stand up to the bullying and what was taking place with the union movement," Mr Joyce said.
As big business gears up its push for industrial relations reform and grows increasingly concerned about the move back to protectionism, the federal government has shifted its language about support for manufacturing industry by warning manufacturers not to expect taxpayers to underwrite exchange rate risks.
Industry Minister Greg Combet yesterday urged manufacturers to change to survive, while Wayne Swan said businesses affected by the high Australian dollar must find new markets and new products. The comments were a shift in rhetoric understood to have come about after criticism Labor was willing to subsidise manufacturing with no strings attached. Mr Combet said economic reform in the past 25 years had meant many people changed jobs. "The government will be looking to the economy making the shift in its competitiveness, becoming more productive, and for the manufacturing sector that means new technologies, heavier investment in research and development, and heavy investment in skills," he told the ABC's Insiders program.
The Treasurer gave a similar message in his weekly note.
"The affected businesses will need to do more to adapt, to improve their efficiency, to spot new opportunities, to find new markets and design new products," Mr Swan wrote.
Business is becoming increasingly vocal about its concerns over the government's industrial relations laws and perceived embrace of protectionist measures.
The Business Council of Australia policy committee, chaired by Wesfarmers boss Richard Goyder, and whose members include Microsoft Australia boss Pip Marlow, met last week to discuss the BCA's position on the Fair Work Act before the review announced by Workplace Relations Minister Bill Shorten closes on Friday.
The BCA also warned that laws to be introduced to parliament making it harder for foreign vessels to operate in Australia's coastal shipping trade, and giving tax incentives to Australian-registered vessels, could lead to higher costs and poorer service.
"Businesses will have an incentive to choose alternative land-based transport options or even to source products from overseas rather than manufacture products in Australia and ship interstate," the BCA says in a submission on the draft reforms.
"As a price-taker for most products in global markets, any increase in domestic transport costs not able to be passed on by Australian businesses results in lower domestic profits and lower capacity to pay wages to workers."
The BCA is urging the government to refer the proposal to the Productivity Commission.
Mr Joyce hit out at a push by independent senator Nick Xenophon and Greens leader Bob Brown to force changes to the Qantas Sale Act as an instance of politicians and unions focusing on domestic need.
"This was all under the guise of protection of Australian jobs, when we know it's going to be negative for Australian jobs," the Qantas boss said.
On the opposition to Jetstar's Asian hub strategy, he said: "If you listen to some of the political leaders and the unions, they would have the view this is somehow negative for Australian jobs. It's absolutely the opposite."

What The

12th Feb 2012, 20:20

Dear Alan,

When you have an original thought and not just regurgitate the crap pushed down your throat by Clifford you may gain some real respect. You have approximately 30000 employees who mostly despise you and your cronies. Winning their trust would be worthy of an award. Not this right wing wank award from another corrupt Rupert newspaper.

oldschooljenko

12th Feb 2012, 20:26

My money is on red q not happening and AJ resigning.

grip pipe

12th Feb 2012, 21:13

Hmmm, confidentiality agreements would suggest a material change to the structure and hence value of the company thus stock trading, not merely keeping mum!

Cookie7

12th Feb 2012, 21:49

A source called into the 3AW morning show suggesting confidentiality clauses were to be signed by upper senior management, jobs in Melbourne to go, FRA to go and possible Malaysian tie-up.

Either that's someone throwing a spanner in the works, or something that the board should surely indicate to shareholders.

Also, I would have thought, should there be an imminent major announcement, surely there should be a trading halt? - This is not my area of expertise so I'm sure someone can shed light on this issue.

whatever6719

12th Feb 2012, 22:45

What the...Dont you mean Right wing wank award. I think Murdoch and his ilk are about as left leaning as Margaret Thatcher

hotnhigh

12th Feb 2012, 23:07

It's official, the man has gone troppo.
Grounding 'positive' for Qantas brand: Joyce (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/grounding-positive-for-qantas-brand-joyce-20120213-1t0nz.html)

hotnhigh

12th Feb 2012, 23:14

And for an illustration of the man's thoughts.......Check out the section on "Joyce gems."
Management Today (http://www.aim.com.au/DisplayStory.asp?ID=818)

"If you use non-constructive behaviour, are a bully and turn people off, then it's not a great place to work."

What a leader!

OneDotLow

12th Feb 2012, 23:24

Grounding 'positive' for Qantas brand: Joyce

BIG announcement : Groundings and lockouts on the 4th Saturday or EVERY month.

"We are going to leverage our knowledge and experience in grounding the airline each and every month and it will be a fantastic win for our customers and our employees!":ok:

blow.n.gasket

12th Feb 2012, 23:27

Evidence enough now to explain why so many senior exec's started buying up big on Qantas stock just recently!
Let me guess, their stock buying spree will just happen to have occured outside any blackout period associated with the upcoming announcement that can be tied to insider trading!:}

havick

12th Feb 2012, 23:37

Evidence enough now to explain why so many senior exec's started buying up big on Qantas stock just recently!

Wouldn't ASIC be interested in said parties that financially benefit from insider trading?

Jethro Gibbs

13th Feb 2012, 00:09

Bill Shorten on radio this morning he already knows jobs are going he is just waiting for someone else to announce it so he does not look so bad.

Teal

13th Feb 2012, 00:36

Grounding 'positive' for Qantas brand: Joyce (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/grounding-positive-for-qantas-brand-joyce-20120213-1t0nz.html)

Not positive at all if the newspaper reader response to a poll on the issue is indicative:

26% 'Yes' (positive for the brand)
74% 'No' (not positive for the brand)

Over 4,700 votes so far (The Age & SMH newspapers).

dr dre

13th Feb 2012, 00:42

Bill Shorten on radio this morning he already knows jobs are going he is just waiting for someone else to announce it so he does not look so bad.

I think the numbers, mentioned somewhere else on this thread include:

180 pilots (most seem to have taken LWOP though)
500ish cc, should be taken care of with VR
200ish engineers
50? Mel operational staff
Frankurt and NY staff if those ports are cut
Maybe some LHR, HKG and BKK staff with the drawdown in services
The usual 2 year middle management cull as well perhaps?

Mr Leslie Chow

13th Feb 2012, 00:57

The AIM article does not mention Joyces' failure at Lingus nor Ansett, that part is gleamed over, you gotta love spin......

Once again GT puts his head well and truly above the pit - can someone explain to this **** what the difference is between a co-pilot and a F/O. Can anyone guess who holds the number one membership to the AJ fan club :yuk:

Also it's funny how he quotes these 'mantras' but yet has gone against all of them in the last two years.

Walk the walk..... :ugh:

frigatebird

13th Feb 2012, 01:36

Hey.., Fair Go....

It's official, the man has gone troppo.

Even those of us who worked most of our lives north of abeam Rocky (or Carnarvon) are not THAT crazy...

teresa green

13th Feb 2012, 04:08

Perhaps this is a part of the "Malaysian Solution". Little Al is prepared to take 2,000 Malaysian CC for 2,000 Aussie jobs. Think of the savings.

gobbledock

13th Feb 2012, 11:10

The fact that the little four foot tall two legged steaming pile of monkey crap has fornicated once again with Uncle Ruperts newspaper and regurgitated a mix of bile, carrot chunks and 'heavy speech about unions and their lack of understanding the real business world' is a warm up for the massive pineapple he is about to unleash on staff once again. He is merely stretching staffs sphincters on preparation.

Now is once again the opportune time for all staff, families, supporters and Australians to stand up against the greedy hypocritical actions of this mini fuhrer and fight him and his executive footstools onto oblivion. If you aren't staff then vote with your feet. If you are staff then you are perceived by him and his band of minions to be the enemy and a liability. So you have two choices you either bend over and grab your ankles or you align yourself with the person next to you and fight tooth and nail to get rid of the disconnected management who are themselves living in cloud cuckoo land.
Everybody needs to fight smart, but if it is a dirty fight this little toad wants then let's make his life as unpleasant and unpalatable as humanly possible.

1a sound asleep

13th Feb 2012, 11:32

So you have two choices you either bend over and grab your ankles or you align yourself with the person next to you and fight tooth and nail to get rid of the disconnected management who are themselves living in cloud cuckoo land.

I agree with you but I am almost lost in thought devising a strategy that will work. I have seen so many lies, devious filthy manipulation of the players by the foul stinking greedy and corrupt hierarchy. Reality is the people running/driving Qantas have no care for Qantas. Their agenda is short term profiteering at any cost

I have pretty much come to the conclusion that the best way would be get the Government reconnected with Qantas and buy back 51%. I did some quick calculations and based on assets Qantas is a bargain buy for the Government right now. I would be lobbying the Government to reinvest in Australia's future

NewPiper

13th Feb 2012, 11:55

Hey 1a,

Where do you reckon the 51% of 2.2 billion shares are gonna come from at your calculated 'bargain price'?

The top 20 shareholders own 80% of stock and you are dreaming if you think they will sell out to Gillard at a bargain price. It would have to be at least double todays closing price before those investors even think about it.

What you said is a pipedream. Forget about and keep looking for a new job if you fly for QF.

NP

gobbledock

13th Feb 2012, 13:02

Well well, a Troll returns! Welcome back Poo Piper. Did the Roo's PR machine unleash you for a little more deflection? An all too familiar tactic when the heat gets turned up against management.
Or perhaps you always fancied yourself in a QF uniform but never cut the grade, hence your poking and prodding little digs at QF pilots who may be in the firing line of Commandant Alan?

1a sound asleep

13th Feb 2012, 13:07

NP

I said for the Government to reinvest. Of course they are not going to but 51% overnight. But if the Government announced this you and all your management cronies would be dropping your shares as fast as you could. Think about it.

For a desolate and remote country like Australia the national Airline should be majority owned by the Government. Selling it all off was a mistake

Stalins ugly Brother

13th Feb 2012, 14:03

PP,

Where do you reckon the 51% of 2.2 billion shares are gonna come from at your calculated 'bargain price'?

The way this management are going 51% of 2.2 billion shares worth zero will be a bargain for any government.

Alan Joyce and another big announcements, What a Joke! QF has become like watching a beached whale die of a slow and painful death, FFS put it out of it's misery! :ugh:

TIMA9X

13th Feb 2012, 14:29

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-SIG8RITNkKU/TzklJoOe6XI/AAAAAAAAAHk/IgVYfyF8RAg/s436/Aj-poll-grounding.JPG?gl=US

Grounding 'positive' for Qantas brand: Joyce (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/grounding-positive-for-qantas-brand-joyce-20120213-1t0nz.html)

This morning, after the News Ltd tripe was published, AJ, OW & Co must have felt pretty chuffed until the SMH & the Age published this story above.... just read the comments......

PS, this story was the most read all day online in the Age, the SMH & the Brisbane Times....

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-O6QcyfpmcCk/Tzko5uPNvtI/AAAAAAAAAHw/eH7q_iXJGe4/s643/qantas-sharprice-13-2-12.JPG?gl=US

Whilst the market was up, the Qantas share price stayed the same... all that positive stuff written in the Australian didn't seem to help much at the end of the day.... sort of all got lost me thinks.. :uhoh:

Now this story for today

Qantas staff fear cuts as kangaroo route struggles

QANTAS staff fear that job cuts will be announced on Thursday when the airline releases its half-year profit and updates investors on a strategic review of its loss-making premium international operations.
The expectations of reductions to its 34,000-strong workforce came as Workplace Minister Bill Shorten called for Qantas to focus on the longer term, telling Fairfax Radio Network yesterday that ''if you cut too much you then lose skills that are never coming back''.
Qantas has had a strategic review of its international operations under way since January last year, which includes the possibility of it launching an ultra-premium carrier in south-east Asia.

The airline has been struggling to stem losses on the so-called ''kangaroo route'' to Europe because of increased competition from other carriers and high fuel costs. It has led to renewed speculation that Qantas might shelve flights to Frankfurt in Germany, leaving London as its sole gateway in Europe.
The Australian and International Pilots Association vice-president, Richard Woodward, said staff feared the airline would announce the shedding of jobs on Thursday, as part of reductions to its long-haul network.
About 180 Qantas pilots had taken up the company's offer of leave without pay to work for Jetstar and rivals including Emirates and Qatar Airways over the past six months, Mr Woodward said.
The federal president of the Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association, Paul Cousins, said yesterday that Qantas' engineering division was the most exposed to the company shedding jobs.
Qantas announced 1000 job cuts - mainly affecting pilots, cabin crew and engineers - in August when it unveiled its five-year strategy for turning around the international operations.
The airline yesterday declined to comment on the speculation but ruled out shifting jobs overseas.
''There is always a lot of rumour and speculation about Qantas and we are not going to respond to every single rumour, but any suggestion that Qantas is offshoring jobs is totally incorrect,'' a spokesman said.
As Qantas grapples with turning around its long-haul operations, Macquarie Equities analysts have suggested that Emirates could be an attractive partner for the airline on the route between Australia and Europe. To ease its exposure to Europe, Qantas has already announced that it will reduce flights on the route to Europe from five a day to three from April

Read more: Qantas staff fear cuts as kangaroo route struggles (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-staff-fear-cuts-as-kangaroo-route-struggles-20120213-1t25a.html#ixzz1mHFST1do)

Ex FSO GRIFFO

13th Feb 2012, 14:32

Hey Mr 1A et al....

Re" Selling it all off was a mistake".......

SO WAS THE WHOLE "PRIVATEISATION" SCAM!!!:yuk::yuk:

The airports for example....what has cost us - "The hard working families of Australia" - more???

Pay to land, pay to park, pay to park the car......
THAT ALONE has KILLED G/A....And raised the price of a ticket for ALL RPT travellers....

Don't get me started!!!!

Apols for the drift.......:mad::mad:

1a sound asleep

13th Feb 2012, 14:49

GRIFFO we dont sell off the hospitals or the ambulance service do we? Qantas Act should be amended and QF ear marked by Government as an essential service and buy it back

Taildragger67

13th Feb 2012, 15:51

It would have to be at least double todays closing price before those investors even think about it.

What, like around where it was a few months before current management came in?

Sunfish

13th Feb 2012, 18:58

God help Qantas and its staff if Alan Joyce has inked a deal with Malaysian.

This will not end well.

Livs Hairdresser

13th Feb 2012, 21:17

This morning, after the News Ltd tripe was published, AJ, OW & Co must have felt pretty chuffed until the SMH & the Age published this story above.... just read the comments......

This morning at 7am there were 170 comments, 99% of which were critical of Qantas management. Now it appears they've wiped the lot. In fact, if you google "qantas the yub" ('the yub' was one of the union bashers who'd made several posts I'd remembered from this morning) the very first link that comes up contains a little snippet of the yub's wisdom and directs you to the SMH article. So I know I wasn't dreaming.

I guess Qantas PR must be back from Xmas holidays, cheque books at the ready :mad:

Cactusjack

13th Feb 2012, 22:02

I certainly hope the PR machine comes out of hiding. I would like to see Wirthless make some media statements while dressed in baju melayu, those traditional clothes suit her slender frame and dominatrix style scowl. Maybe throw in some knee length crocodile skin boots and she can make me her bitch forever!!! Fair dinkum, I think I am in love!
Forget the incompetent management, tanked share price and the overall sinking ship, gve me Livvy in a full length rubber suit any day !

hotnhigh

13th Feb 2012, 22:28

Cactus.................Cactus,............ wake up. You've been lured in. It will be a slow painful death. You'll receive the same treatment as all other employees. Used to fit a means. Imagine, suffocating in amongst the rubber suit, and spat out at the other end with nothing left.

Cactusjack

13th Feb 2012, 22:58

piston broke again

14th Feb 2012, 00:11

Anyone tipping its a full blown merger with MAS?

Propstop

14th Feb 2012, 00:20

piston broke again Anyone tipping its a full blown merger with MAS?

If that is the case then as soon as MAS have secured the cash reserve QF have in the bank, then QF will be cast adrift and then go down the tube.
This will be the only reason a cash strapped carrier will merge with Qantas.

Ex FSO GRIFFO

14th Feb 2012, 00:26

Well, Mr 1A,

In WA, the ambos ARE 'Private' - St Johns - owned by 'overseas interests' I am led to believe....

Don't even think of ever needing one unless you are in a fund....
Can be up to $800 per time - and that's according to a 'fund' advert.

And yes, I have preferred a 'private' hospital over the local State one from time to time - Lucky I'm in a 'Fund' eh??

And tell me, why should we 'limit' any buy back to QANTAS, an airline?
How about all of the AIRPORTS which are an ESSENTIAL part of any nation's and city's infrastructure.

Try living in this age without one!

As much as I am 'AUS' and a great fan of all things 'AUS', including our 'National Carrier', why we continue to 'sell the farm' / utilities that WE the taxpayers owned, and then expect it not to cost us, the taxpayers MORE, (Read - the hard working families of Australia etc etc..blah blah...) is beyond my poor comprehension....

I rest my case....:yuk:

Apols for the drift.......:}

Wedcue

14th Feb 2012, 00:48

Saw on the news Joyce has been warned by the chief economist not to cut jobs.. Doesn't mean he wont..

600ft-lb

14th Feb 2012, 00:49

Qantas-Malaysian Airlines Alliance Has Wings: Macquarie - Deal Journal Australia - WSJ (http://blogs.wsj.com/dealjournalaustralia/2012/02/14/how-to-improve-returns-at-qantas-macquarie/)

Qantas-Malaysian Airlines Alliance Has Wings: Macquarie

Macquarie reckons if the tie-up occurs, implementation will not occur at least until mid-2013 due to infrastructure demands in Kuala Lumpur, the need for long range aircraft with 2013 delivery and upgrade requirements to existing planes.water fountain talk in the macquarie offices ?

600ft-lb

14th Feb 2012, 01:03

The airline yesterday declined to comment on the speculation but ruled out shifting jobs overseas.
"There is always a lot of rumour and speculation about Qantas and we are not going to respond to every single rumour, but any suggestion that Qantas is offshoring jobs is totally incorrect,'' a spokesman said.

Like last time they announced jobs to go. They weren't being 'offshored', the 'jobs are gone' statement came out. A nice spin on the fact that jobs are being lost in Australia and gained in some other country.

So yeah, the jobs won't be offshored, the jobs are gone. Big difference ok ?

TIMA9X

14th Feb 2012, 01:11

This morning at 7am there were 170 comments, 99% of which were critical of Qantas management. Now it appears they've wiped the lot.

It's back up again to their credit, but buried deep in the travel section, comments now closed.
Grounding 'positive' for Qantas brand: Joyce (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/grounding-positive-for-qantas-brand-joyce-20120213-1t0nz.html)

worktorule

14th Feb 2012, 01:36

Now if Mr Joyce was concerned about the safety of the aircraft when he decided to ground the airline and 'lock out' its employees because they wouldn't be able to concentrate, surely the impending sacking of its staff would be of a greater concern and he must again ground the fleet again.

planedriver

14th Feb 2012, 02:01

Shown an email sent around today to crew saying despite the rumours no big announcement planned and just the results announced and committed to being Australian employer etc etc

Wedcue

14th Feb 2012, 03:09

My money is on a delay of retiring current QF aircraft. The long term plan of having the 330's as domestic aircraft, relies on the new terminal at Sydney. There is no point re engineering the current Qantas terminal, they will be out in a handful of years. And as the current QF terminal can only handle 2 x 330's, they wouldnt want to send too many more 330's to the domestic operation just yet.

Thursday will be a non event.

pull-up-terrain

14th Feb 2012, 04:21

A QF manager told me today that they are going to be pulling out of Frankfurt and Mumbai and shutting down 737 heavy maintainance in Melbourne. :ugh:

Bagus

14th Feb 2012, 04:44

It is all about routes cut and shutting down one maintenance base,engineering wil be badly affected,

The Golden Rivet

14th Feb 2012, 05:04

Melbourne heavy has been in a progressive shut down for years, gradually cutting out departments that have provided highly reliable components to qantas for years, as they closed them reliability went south. The death of a thousand cuts.......

Good luck fellow gingers.....:(

600ft-lb

14th Feb 2012, 05:21

I recall 2 things that possible add weight to this rumor about MEL heavy.

1) Saw an email with B738 PCT attendees location "AVV".
2) Docking investment diverted from MEL to AVV for 738's about 6 months ago.

It's not a recent decision, they've been setting their cards up for a while now.

Baileys

14th Feb 2012, 05:48

So when the mining "boom" lets up one day is there going to be any industry left in Australia? Sounds like not.

unionist1974

14th Feb 2012, 06:04

Just got the word on the BA , Engine Shop in Mascot to reopen , HM in Syd to reopen along with Component shops , All TWU to be emplyed direct by QF . AND WAIT FOR IT ! JQ to close and all flying to reurn to QF.
What do you mean , pigs will fly ? don't they? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

The The

14th Feb 2012, 06:40

So when the mining "boom" lets up one day is there going to be any industry left in Australia? Sounds like not.]

I think centrelink will be booming!

woollcott

14th Feb 2012, 07:08

But....but..........but.........they cant close Melbourne Heavy...........
We have just had the consultants through and they have told us all our "rotating machinery" is horribly unsafe and needs to be replaced at great cost.........

They wouldnt spend all that money and then close the place.........

Would they?

Cookie7

14th Feb 2012, 07:16

Qantas grounds spoof Twitter account (http://finance.ninemsn.com.au/newsbusiness/8419360/qantas-grounds-spoof-twitter-account)

Twitter users criticised Qantas for the move, with one wag sarcastically thanking the airline because he was "genuinely unable to differentiate between your company and a joke"

Jethro Gibbs

14th Feb 2012, 08:32

Qantas Avalon Job cuts are on the Way Job cuts a matter for bosses: Baillieu (http://alturl.com/gxaoo) Thanks Ted big Help.

ohallen

14th Feb 2012, 08:56

Woollcott,
That is exactly why they would employ consultants, to tell them what they have already decided to do and to give them the reasons to do it.

From consultants side, work out their fee and then divide by average wage and that is how many people they need to get rid of to justify the report.

Sad but true.

ampclamp

14th Feb 2012, 09:03

"Job cuts a matter for bosses", and "concentrating on a strong budget" Brilliant Ted. One would think employment is kind of high on the list of things required for a strong economy. Here Teddy, come over here and roll over for nice belly scratch.... :yuk:

qf 1

14th Feb 2012, 18:24

i remember in 2005 qantas spending a few million fixing H245,overhauling docks ,painting,fixing all the long term faults.at the time a few of the senior LAME,s made the point this must be the end for us,and what do you know.All that docking has now been cut out and i think there washing aircraft in there know.:sad:

division1

14th Feb 2012, 18:46

Reading yesterdays aust fin review, Billy Shorten, imbicile, has fallen for
Joyces old chestnut, likening new aircraft to new cars, that don't need
as much servicing as the the old ones.
The gay leprachaun also reacons its like we don't need to check the car
oil every sa'turd'ay.
This guy is full of it. Turds like this call motor clubs to change a flat tyre.

Sunfish

14th Feb 2012, 20:14

You heard it here first.

Within Two years, "Globalisation", "Offshoring" and "Outsourcing" of critical business technologies will be things of the past.

It's not just me saying this, it is at least one group of economists whose opinion I respect.

Globalization and Offshoring will be victims of political pressure and 20%+++ unemployment rates in Europe and America.

Outsourcing will be a vicitm of sovereign risk and commercial risk. To put that another way, how would you like to have your engine maintenance outsourced to Greece right now? What happens when your supplier suddenly can't get finance? What happens when your currency suddenly implodes?

To put that in an Australian context, if the Federal Government cannot by hook or by crook get some equalisation of gain and pain between the States then there is going to be what is euphemistically called "Social Unrest'.

The Federal resources rent tax (the mining tax) had better recycle dollars to NSW, SA, VIC and TAS or there is going to be trouble when unemployment starts rising - thanks to businesses closing because of the strong Australian dollar - caused by the mining boom. You can already hear this sentiment on talk radio.

The other example of course is the Murray Darling Basin. South Australians jokingly talked about marching upstream and blowing up the dams. At least it was only talk, but if they get a **** sandwich in the next drought it might become more serious.

If China comes off the boil the mining boom will tank very quickly. Same when interest rates start to rise (happening already). There will then be a great deal of people who see themselves as victims of international forces that the Australian Government refused to even try to control. The first outcome of that will be protectionism. The second outcome will be a drastically lower Australian dollar - but the employment opportunities that can produce will be long in coming.

And Qantas? It will have neatly closed all its Australian maintenance and overhaul facilities and squandered its cash on foreign ventures just in time to take the full force of the downturn right in its face.

73to91

14th Feb 2012, 20:18

This line about likening new aircraft to new cars, that don't need
as much servicing as the the old ones reminded me.

Over a game of golf in early January, myself and another former QF employee had a game with 2 other guys. Conversation went something like:

(Me to New Guy) Where do you work?
(NG new guy) I work for QANTAS,
(Me) Yeah, how's that going, not a happy place I hear,
(NG) No it's a great place to work run by great people,
(Me) I heard that it wasn't so great (admit here that I was trying to get oput of him if he was management a newer employee or an old timer etc)
(NG) the propblem at QANTAS is the old work practices and those things have to change like the engineers, you don't need their old practices, aircraft are just like new cars, plug them into computers and you immediately know where the problem is and fix them.

(2nd former employee) what about all the items that computers don't show?
(NG) there's not many of them these days when you have new aircraft.

Found that this guy was management and had been there for 3 years only.
Perhaps, the management training is all about 'educating' the new staff so they can all roll out Joyces old chestnut

the rim

14th Feb 2012, 20:33

dont think computors picked up the "tiny cracks in the wing rib support feet on the A380".....that was good old/young LAME's doing there job.The Qantas founders must be rolling in their graves:confused:

Sunfish

14th Feb 2012, 23:19

I have a mate that startted a new career as a warranty manager for Volvo and Range Rover - now some of the most electronically sophisticated vehicles on the planet.

Guess what? He has a very steady workload just in software upgrades to fix problems alone. Mechanical failures are expensive too around $2000 dealer wholesale for a fuel injection pump (petrol not diesel!)

standard unit

15th Feb 2012, 01:27

A Sydney cabin crew "manager" has in an unprecedented move, organised sandwiches for the crew attending EP recurrent training for tomorrow.

Very kind of self servicing, ideologically driven and incompetent fools to offer the condemned a last meal. :yuk:

600ft-lb

15th Feb 2012, 02:00

It's probably that managers last meal too.

HotDog

15th Feb 2012, 02:13

Must be ex CX manager. We always used to get a tray of sandwiches in Sim training.

bbear75

15th Feb 2012, 02:35

And all the CC managers have been positioned around the world to hold Q & A sessions from tomorrow. Must be more of an announcement than fin results???

dr dre

15th Feb 2012, 03:22

And all the CC managers have been positioned around the world to hold Q & A sessions from tomorrow. Must be more of an announcement than fin results???

Yep sure is, like they been alluding to "a fundamental structural change to Qantas"

My money's on a complete QF/MH tie up, possibly even a merger

TIMA9X

15th Feb 2012, 03:31

Qantas adds airline experience to its board (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-adds-airline-experience-to-its-board-20120215-1t5jx.html)
Qantas adds airline experience to its board

Qantas has strengthened the airline experience on its board with the appointment of a former boss of the Star Alliance airline grouping and Swiss International.
The appointment of William Meaney as a non-executive director today boosts the size of Qantas’s board to 12, which includes Barbara Ward and John Schubert, the former Commonwealth Bank chairman.
Insiders have complained that Qantas’s board lacks directors with direct airline experience.
Advertisement: Story continues below
Mr Meaney’s industry experience includes a stint as managing director and chief operating officer of Swiss International, the inaugural boss of Star Alliance and vice-president of South African Airways.
More recently, he has been the chief executive of Hong Kong-based conglomerate the Zuellig Group since 2004, and is also a member of the Asia Business Council.
Mr Meaney, who lives in Hong Kong, holds US, Swiss and Irish citizenships.
Shares in Qantas were up 3 cents, or 2 per cent, at $1.57 in afternoon trade, ending a four-day losing streak.
The appointment of Mr Meaney comes a day before Qantas will unveil its half-year earnings and is expected to announce job cuts, mostly from its maintenance division

Read more: Qantas adds airline experience to its board (http://www.smh.com.au/business/qantas-adds-airline-experience-to-its-board-20120215-1t5jx.html#ixzz1mQCTZ9Bu)

Background

Board of Trustees (http://rpi.edu/president/bot/index.html) William L. Meaney ’82
Chief Executive Officer
The Zuellig Group

William L. Meaney is the chief executive officer of The Zuellig Group. Zuellig is a US $12 billion diversified pan-Asian group based in Hong Kong, whose primary activities include: pharmaceutical distribution; pharmaceutical manufacturing under license; animal feed manufacturing; and agricultural and materials handling equipment.
Prior to his appointment at Zuellig, Meaney worked in a number of turnaround situations, including: the chief commercial officer at Swiss International Airlines in Zurich; executive vice president at South African Airways in Johannesburg; and the chief executive officer of South African Vaccine Producers, a parastatal pharmaceutical manufacturer based in Johannesburg. Prior to his taking on leadership roles in international groups, he was a strategic consultant with Strategic Planning Associates (now part of Oliver Wyman) based in London and in Geneva where he worked in a variety of industries.
Before beginning his career in business, Meaney served as a CIA operations officer. He also serves on the board of Moksha8, a private pharmaceutical company controlled by TPG. In addition to being a trustee of Rensselaer, he serves as a trustee at Carnegie Mellon University.
He has a B.S. degree in Mechanical Engineering from Rensselaer and an MBA from Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania. Meaney holds U.S., Swiss, and Irish citizneships.

The Luck of the Irish :rolleyes:

AWB_Clerk

15th Feb 2012, 03:36

My money's on a complete QF/MH tie up, possibly even a merger

Wouldn't something on the scale of a merger require a halt to share trading prior to the announcement??

thecatinthehat

15th Feb 2012, 05:10

Maybe the big announcement is another online course or engagement survey.

OR OR maybe $200 staff travel voucher.

OR

Maybe our we will be supported through yet another management re-structure.

Dont DIS my engagement :bored:

The The

15th Feb 2012, 06:03

Certainly looks like Mr Meaney has the experience Qantas is after:
World Business Briefing | Europe: Switzerland: Airline Scales Back
By Alison Langley (NYT)
Published: May 03, 2003

Acknowledging that its initial strategy of focusing on first-class and business-class travelers failed, Swiss International Air said that it would drop more routes, lay off more workers and set up a new discount short-haul subsidiary. Swiss International, cobbled together late in 2001 by the Swiss business establishment to replace the bankrupt Swissair, is losing 40 million Swiss francs a month and has been told by both its lenders and the Swiss government not to expect any fresh aid. William L. Meaney, the airline's chief financial officer, said that the airline had to direct its efforts ''not to what we think the customer wants, but what the market is telling us the customer is willing to pay for.'' Alison Langley (NYT)

Dunnocks

15th Feb 2012, 06:59

Good digging, that man.:ok:
The picture continues to get bleaker, innit?

mohikan

15th Feb 2012, 07:13

When trying to work out which area will be cut next, keep in mind that its all about KPI's for the execs and money for the consultants (Bain & Co, BCG and Oldmeadow Consulting)

Looking at this through that lens, heres my take:

- FRA, AKL-LAX and probably BKK to go. At least 7 747-400's gone in 2011

- Only 12 A380's now with 13,14 also 'deferred'

- Significant engineer and pilot redundancies from long haul. Probably in the vicinity of 300 pers each initially with more to follow.

All of this is relatively low level. What really concerns me is the scenario where the company retires an entire fleet in one go. If this was the case then the B747-400 is the most likely candidate.

I hope to christ I am wrong...........

TIMA9X

15th Feb 2012, 07:17

William L. Meaney is the chief executive officer of The Zuellig Group. Zuellig is a US $12 billion diversified pan-Asian group based in Hong Kong, whose primary activities include: pharmaceutical distribution; pharmaceutical manufacturing under license;

I suppose he knows how to get quick relief for a headache..:E

mohikan

15th Feb 2012, 07:34

21.11.2003 (http://www.swiss.com/web/en/about_swiss/media/press_releases/2003/Pages/pr_20031121.aspx)

Stalins ugly Brother

15th Feb 2012, 08:11

Got a gut feeling even more now that this announcement tomorrow @10am is not going to be good, especially for the 400 and 767.

Why? Just had a look on the bloggs for tonight and noticed that the fleet managers for both fleets have made themselves available to take calls and answer questions post AJ's announcement. Not good me's think.

dr dre

15th Feb 2012, 08:13

I hope to christ I am wrong...........

I hope so as well

I'll offer a point of positivity, amongst the doom, mainly for myself

I think whatever transpires tomorrow, and in the future, I believe other opportunities will open up for the pilots in QF mainline and I don't think anyone will be out of paid employment, whether it be LWOP, J*, contracts or whatever...

I hope...

Jethro Gibbs

15th Feb 2012, 08:16

This could be The Death Sentence for Forstaff Avalon as they have no other customers.

dr dre

15th Feb 2012, 08:21

Just had a look on the bloggs for tonight and noticed that the fleet managers for both fleets have made themselves available to take calls and answer questions post AJ's announcement

Actually all fleet managers will be taking calls tomorrow, maybe it's all fleet's that'll be affected?

nitpicker330

15th Feb 2012, 09:29

Word here in CX is that all QF managers told to sit by their phones tomorrow and expect a lot of calls about jobs, all 744's grounded immediately ( don't know about 767's )........**** I hope this is not true....good luck to all my friends in QF, we'll all be thinking of you tomorrow morning.

Surely not so quick? What the hell is Joyce up to now?

mohikan

15th Feb 2012, 09:35

Ground staff in Perth told incoming crews that 'councillors' arrived today to speak to crews after tomorrows announcement

standard unit

15th Feb 2012, 09:47

all 744's grounded immediately ( don't know about 767's )........**** I hope this is not true....good luck to all my friends in QF, we'll all be thinking of you tomorrow morning.

Pierre the JNB airport manager who's been with the company for 20 + years has just left for LAX as a transfer in a hurry...........

stubby jumbo

15th Feb 2012, 09:50

William L. Meaney, the airline's chief financial officer, said that the airline had to direct its efforts ''not to what we think the customer wants, but what the market is telling us the customer is willing to pay for.''

Oh this just keeps getting better and better.:rolleyes:

How does one reconcile this sort of hire ????

Stuff the friggin customer.....'just respond to what the market tells us!!!!

Isn't this at the core of what has been totally F:mad::mad:D with the QF "strategy" for the last decade. ........:eek:

Just 2 of many examples,
The customer told us:
1. WE want direct non stop ,high frequency, quality services to the US.
Result=non purchase of 777-LR.
2. WE want a quality product on board,with a modern,young fleet.
Result=Tired interiors,product,IFE,kit.

If this crap wasn't so serious ....it would make a great comedy doco.

The litany of failure based on Board /CEO false(market) assumptions is :yuk::yuk:

ANCDU

15th Feb 2012, 10:05

Ahhh Alan, don't you think the the airline should be grounded again until the announcement tommorow? These are worrying rumors and surely your crews must be stressed and concerned about them. Can't have them flying when concerned about such things can we......it's all about safety isn't Alan?????? :ugh:

600ft-lb

15th Feb 2012, 10:11

It's hard to imagine an immediate grounding of all say 767s / -400s immediately as they are still happily selling seats on flights well into the future on those types.

Also, they're spending an absolute bomb of money reconfiguring 9 of the 747's.

But that sort of action would be well rewarded as decisive and excellent action in the business community with bonuses all round for a job well done. So I personally wouldn't be suprised.

600ft-lb

15th Feb 2012, 10:17

Qantas worries rise as profits fall | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/qantas-jobs-and-planes-in-jeopardy/story-fn7j19iv-1226272124363)

Qantas worries rise as profits fall

by: Neil Wilson
From: Herald Sun (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/)
February 16, 2012 12:00AM

Last Updated: February 15, 2012
Excuse me but is this a mistake ??????

Some privy information known before a statement to the ASX ??

Qantas' plans to launch a premium airline based in Asia have been scaled back to a "capital light" venture with Malaysia Airlines. Qantas expects Malaysia to supply new Airbus A330 for the routes, which both airlines chiefs have still been discussing in Kuala Lumpur.

Qantas routes - including some into Asia - are likely to go as the airline reacts to rising competition.
But the biggest cuts - with hundreds of positions on the line - are likely in Victoria, with the airline to announce a review of maintenance operations at Tullamarine and Avalon.

Very interesting, this seems like someone pressed them enter button a bit too early on this 'scoop'

dr dre

15th Feb 2012, 10:17

Tomorrow's first headline

Qantas worries rise as profits fall | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/qantas-jobs-and-planes-in-jeopardy/story-fn7j19iv-1226272124363)

mohikan

15th Feb 2012, 10:17

Perhaps by the end of the year then. I think the B767 is safe - domestic still making money.

All -400 ports gone..........

600ft-lb

15th Feb 2012, 10:27

Look at the times on that article DrDre.

Qantas is under pressure to find savings because its cash flow was insufficient to fund $2.7 billion in spending on new Airbus A380s and the Boeing 787 Dreamliner. It is due to take delivery of 15 new aircraft next year.

Qantas must be so exposed to all of its foreign adventures that it is not only neglecting its core, Australian business, it can't afford to fund replacements for 20 year old aircraft at the end of their lives.

Sack another 1000, that'll fund a few more 320s for offshore ventures. Maybe 1 day those ventures will return more then $10-15million / year like jetstar asia is.

It's starting to rate up there with Geoff Dixon's decision to purchase A380's instead of B777's and paying $200million+ for StarTrack Express only for it to barely break even.

division1

15th Feb 2012, 10:30

Feb. 15 (Bloomberg) -- Qantas Airways Ltd. must "adapt or die," Chief Executive Officer Alan Joyce
told Australian lawmakers last week as the nation's biggest carrier confronts rising costs on
unprofitable international flights.
Adapt to managements fcuked decisions,
Why not get the monkey off QF's back.
Read more: Qantas Shares Slide as Joyce Says Carrier Must Grow or Die (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2012/02/14/bloomberg_articlesLZCYFN6JIJWY01-LZF6H.DTL#ixzz1mWKygnpu)

600ft-lb

15th Feb 2012, 10:44

The 2nd headline for tomorrow.
Hoo-roo: Qantas wields the axe | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/hoo-roo-qantas-wields-the-axe/story-fn6bfkm6-1226272182421)

THE jobs of 1460 Qantas maintenance workers will be put under review today as the airline announces hundreds of cuts in other areas of its business. In a blow to Victoria's crisis-ridden manufacturing sector, the future of 400 workers at its heavy-maintenance base at Tullamarine and 660 workers at its Avalon operation will be examined, along with another 400 jobs in Brisbane.

Qantas also will announce hundreds of staff cuts in other areas including flight and back-office roles as it scraps unprofitable routes.
It is believed that at least one, and possibly two, of Qantas's three heavy maintenance bases will be shut.

The Tullamarine shop, which handles Qantas's workhorse Boeing 737 fleet, is expected to be under the most threat but Avalon's future is also in jeopardy.Qantas, which announced 1000 job losses last year, says the heavy-maintenance jobs will not be sent offshore, despite union fears work could be shipped to the Philippines, Singapore, China, and Hong Kong.

Wing and a prayer | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/ipad/wing-and-a-prayer/story-fn6bn88w-1226272160622)

Worrals in the wilds

15th Feb 2012, 11:51

At the risk of being intimidated by the feds again for posting here, Okay, that's a bit interesting. What happened? If you're not and have never been a public servant then you can't be prosecuted for speaking against the government, unless it's terrorism related or defamatory (which is a State issue).

The Qantas discussion on PPRuNe has been commercial rather than national interest based, so what have the Feds got to do with a company the government is quite happy to wash its hands of in the interest of fiduciary duties? There is nothing government about Qantas apart from the Qantas Sale Act, which they seem happy to ignore as long as the semantics are satisfied.

Either the survival of Qantas is in the national interest or it isn't. That's for the government of the day (Lord help us :eek:) to decide. If it is, then presumably they will step in as they see fit, which they haven't, being more than happy to whimper in a corner acquiescing to the fat CEOs as usual (Vote Labor! the working men's party :yuk:). One can assume that given the lack of action from the government, Qantas is not part of the national interest. If it isn't, then we're discussing company politics and the Feds have nothing to do with it unless you're advocating terrorism, kiddie porn or free movie downloads. If they think otherwise; Get a Lawyer, Son, and start feeling really stressed out. :E

600ft-lb

15th Feb 2012, 12:05

It's CEO logic.

The jobs aren't being offshored.

The jobs are gone.

BIG difference

donpizmeov

15th Feb 2012, 12:06

Fingers crossed for you fellas. Its a ****e day when this happens to QF.

Its a lot of stress living with this kind of job uncertainly. Just remember yaselves and your families come first.

The Don

mikk_13

15th Feb 2012, 12:50

i know whats gone wrong with sin-fra. lufthansa have a full a380 flying tonight. those asians are under cutting the old q in the 747. sin lounge is busy busy.

ejectx3

15th Feb 2012, 19:31

Flew it a while ago (last month).

White wine was warm
Ife failed 3 times
Food was a disgrace
Cc were disinterested

Sunfish

15th Feb 2012, 20:12

The floggings will continue until morale improves.

The Sunfish strategy:

1. Announce Qantas is "at risk". Drastic action is required to save the Australian icon.

2. Immediate departure of Joyce, the Chairman and a Third of the Board after an admission of failure of strategy.

3. Immediately announce combination of Jetstar and Qantas. Jetstar to move slightly up market, Qantas domestic to move slightly down market.

4. Announce immediate removal of layers of management no longer needed because the group structure is going. There is only ONE Qantas.

5. Terminate Jetstar Asian ventures or rebrand them as Qantas.

6. Complete restructure of the company on the principle of: "If its broke, fix it; if it ain't broke, break it and then fix it".

This will involve: comprehensive evaluation of every manager in the company competing for the remaining positions - to be done by some very skilled HR types with the removal of narccisists and psychopaths a priority. I've discovered it IS possible to identify these people, I won't say how I know or how it works.

The Jetstar and Qantas work practices to be combined. Cheapest and best wins.

7. The deal for ordinary employees: Jobs will stay in Australia. No overseas crewing. The price? Payrises and work practices. Bring back work onshore.

8. Destruction of the Sydney-centric business model. Direct flights to capital cities an absolute priority.

9. Major revamped marketing approach for Qantas - "Your Qantas - Here to stay". Target each state individually. Parochialism rulez.

This total approach is based on the "Lifeboat" and "Freeze - Unfreeze - refreeze" organisation models. Jeff Kennett did this for Eighteen months when elected in Victoria, and got it mostly right.

All you need is a CEO and Chairman who can walk the talk and generate the sense of urgency necessary to galvanise the organisation and make change desirable.

....Unfortunately none of this is going to happen. Qantas will continue the death of a thousand cuts - the Sandakan death march. Managers like it this way; it makes them feel important and in control.

Mud Skipper

15th Feb 2012, 20:35

3... Immediately announce combination of Jetstar and Qantas.

Another possible scenario, significant players buy out of Jetstar, IPO on to unsuspecting mum & dad investors. Retire to Bahamas with loads of gold in the bank.
Qantas free of Jetstar rebuilds with less aircraft types, kicks onestar out of terminals and/or charges commercial price for all services.

Only spanner in works is raising $$$ for buy out to satisfy the main Q shareholders, hard to borrow in today's market???? :hmm::hmm::hmm:

TheWholeEnchilada

15th Feb 2012, 21:48

Qantas 2011/12 Interim Financial Report (http://www.asx.com.au/asx/statistics/displayAnnouncement.do?display=pdf&idsId=01268972)

Comoman

15th Feb 2012, 21:58

Annoucement out http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20120216/pdf/424d48gbn48lql.pdf

dr dre

15th Feb 2012, 21:58

Twitter (http://twitter.com/winglets747)

Tweets (http://twitter.com/#!/winglets747)
<LI class="stream-tab stream-tab-favorites">Favorites (http://twitter.com/#!/winglets747/favorites) <LI class="stream-tab stream-tab-following">Following (http://twitter.com/#!/winglets747/following) <LI class="stream-tab stream-tab-followers">Followers (http://twitter.com/#!/winglets747/followers) <LI class="stream-tab stream-tab-lists dropdown-link">Lists

"We have no plans to move operations offshore but we need to consolidate activities in Australia" Joyce says about maintenance

1 minute ago (http://twitter.com/#!/winglets747/status/169917867184238592)

With 747 retirements, Joyce says, "there is simply not enough heavy maintenance work to justify three facilities in MEL, BNE and AVV"

2 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#!/winglets747/status/169917683100426240)

Qantas will downgrade some days of its 747 between SYD and PER to A330 - no surprise. Route was always about a/c utilisation and getting PR.

3 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#!/winglets747/status/169917380259102722)

Qantas to respond to Virgin Australia's A330s between MEL and PER with its own additional A330 services.

4 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#!/winglets747/status/169917226667880448)

No big announcement today about Qantas' planned premium carrier.

5 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#!/winglets747/status/169916959855620098)
Only two additional 747s will be retired in near future - not all (!) that some naysayers predicted.

8 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#!/winglets747/status/169916074479984640)

Qantas to upgrade LAX-JFK from A330 to 747. Route very good for cargo. Aussies 5th largest source of tourists for NYC.

9 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#!/winglets747/status/169915971153309696)

Sydney-Bangkok to be downgraded from 747 to A330 from 10 June.

9 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#!/winglets747/status/169915828228194304)

Qantas to end Singapore-Mumbai and Auckland-Los Angeles from 6 May 2012. (Good news for Air NZ.)

10 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#!/winglets747/status/169915653749354496)
Half-year underlying profit for Qantas is AUD202 million.

11 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#!/winglets747/status/169915425012977664)

Cookie7

15th Feb 2012, 22:02

Smurf live on ABC24 preaching pony poo - to steal another forum members words.

airtags

15th Feb 2012, 22:05

sems that joining the LAME's on the firing line today are international CC.

Just saw a copy of a list of CC Mgrs positoned upline ahead of the announcement..........

Believe their union is getting a briefing now of how the numbers will be managed.

JQ EBIT in the asx statement has to be in the running for creative accounting........
Also clearly the 330 move is significant alongside the +7% in capacity growth -

Bad Adventures

15th Feb 2012, 22:09

Wrong. They are currently training more cabin crew due to a shortage on the A380.

Keg

15th Feb 2012, 22:16

FRA stays. So far, nothing mind blowing.

Word is no change to 767 flying and no demotions (yet). Not sure if that is 767 specific or fleet wide.

ruprecht

15th Feb 2012, 22:20

So, QF changed LAX-JFK from a continuous SYD-JFK 744 service to the A330.

Now they're changing it back....

Dilbert would be proud :hmm:

Tankengine

15th Feb 2012, 22:29

We have been told by Flt Ops that the 747 never made money on LAX-JFK-LAX but the A330 did. A330 carries 13K cargo compared to 14K for 747 so the decision is typical of these guys.:hmm:

hotnhigh

15th Feb 2012, 22:39

Cancelling the AKL-LAX means no 330s in LAX to run the JFK service. Therefore the only option is a 400. More spin than shane warne. Still better than cutting the route.

TIMA9X

15th Feb 2012, 22:40

10 36 am Joyce says Bill Shorten and Penny Wong agrees with him and the Qantas changes..... other words job losses. Thanks Bill & Penny....:yuk:

video will be up ASAP It is my view Joyce leaked this to News LTD and Shorten...

aveng

15th Feb 2012, 22:41

One of the greatest efficiency gains that the company could make is already available but not used. Why don't they use the cross certification of flt crew on A330 and A320 aircraft - please discuss (and don't shoot the messenger - please). Airbus have been designing their cockpits around this for agaes.

By the way, if you got rid of Joyce you could employ aprox 62 heavy maintenance LAME's. Dont have to be a Rhodes scholar to work out who would be more efficient.

correcting

15th Feb 2012, 22:43

Can I then safely assume that the SYD-AKL service transferred from the 747 to the 737 will NOT be flown by Jitconnict? Seeing as though not ONE job will be offshored...

travelator

15th Feb 2012, 23:35

Joyce says new planes don't need as much maintenance therefore he has too many engineers. All the "experts" and reporters suddenly start squawking about new planes not needing maintenance. Whatever happened to researching a story? Is a journalism degree simply a course on how to regurgitate press releases?

I haven't seen any journalist join the dots yet. How many new jets does QF intl have? How many are they getting? F$&k all and none! They have a small ageing and shrinking fleet. I would have thought that as the fleet gets older, more maintenance is required following the AJ logic. Imagine if this were 1400 Holden workers or Heinz factory workers instead of "millionaire QANTAS employees". Pretty sure the government wouldn't roll over like a sick dog then.

woftam

15th Feb 2012, 23:47

"correcting", my first thought exactly.
I'll bet my left one that the 737 flying will be Jitconnict. :suspect:
Offshoring by stealth continues! :yuk:

gobbledock

15th Feb 2012, 23:58

http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/z?s=QAN.AX&t=1y&q=&l=&z=l&a=v&p=s&lang=en-AU&region=AU

http://www.kitco.com/LFgif/au1825nyb.gif (http://charts.kitco.com/KitcoCharts/?Symbol=GOLD&Currency=USD&multiCurrency=true&langId=EN&period=2329200000&names=,LFGOLDAM,LFGOLDPM&descs=,Gold%20%20London%20Fix%20AM,Gold%20%20London%20Fix%20 PM&byValue=true&utm_source=kitco&utm_medium=banner&utm_content=20110407_iCharts_1825day_gold_chart&utm_campaign=iCharts)

Why the hell would you put your money into 'Team Leprechaun' when you can invest in something that is real?

Management

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTlMj1USX22vpNRGl567pHLkOLJmnR3uJrh1bWx1KA 5We86r8JGIA

LMFAO

16th Feb 2012, 00:08

Ok you geniuses. A $50m profit. Pathetic. Yeah lets keep it big, keep engineers, maintenance bases that are not viable, don't expand Jetconnect, don't expand Jetstar.

Now lets watch it sink.

You clowns have absolutely no idea.

Capt_SNAFU

16th Feb 2012, 00:09

In the blurb it says the SYD-AKL will be done with a "Qantas 737-800" I guess that means Short haul and not Jetconnect.

Is it 11 747-400s to go in the next couple of years? How many crew over does that create? Also with the announced delay to the 787 to mid 2013 would also mean the delay of JQ 330s returning to mainline, exasperating the surplus. I wonder if VR is going to be on offer, I think not. mmmmm interesting times.:mad:

Suck&Blow

16th Feb 2012, 00:13

Just read Nassensteins & Joyces press releases to staff. Prior to today, absolutely no CR. Todays release, "We will try & keep C.R. to a minimum". They can't lie straight in bed!! :yuk::yuk::mad::mad:

S&B

ozbiggles

16th Feb 2012, 00:20

Joyce complains about the high cost of doing business in Australia.
Joyce is one of the highest paid airline CEOs in the world.
I see the best place to start making cuts.

ditzyboy

16th Feb 2012, 00:21

I would have thought a smarter use for the international 332s would be to use them to replace the 767 on HNL and open up new international routes (or restart old ones - PEK!) with a denser config (24/220). The existing domestic 332s can compete with Virgin by upgrading the J cabin.

It is mentioned in the spiel that Qantas cannot compete Aus-India due to Asian competitors with nearby hubs. How about restarting the only non-stops between Australia and BOM? Surely that is competitive to hours of transit in Asian hubs?

illusion

16th Feb 2012, 00:24

What has not been stated is who will be operating the A330's. Perhaps Jetstar will pick up some domestic A330 flying to Perth...

Sunfish

16th Feb 2012, 00:38

The floggings will continue until morale improves.

This is death by a thousand cuts.

Furthermore, how does Joyce propose to "work with" the unions involved when it appears from the engineers dispute that there was a lack of good faith on behalf of the company in November?

FlareArmed

16th Feb 2012, 00:41

I read the post-announcement story on news.com.au and was astounded to see – what I suspect are – Qantas arranged "reader" comments posted not long afterwards. They are full of (imho quite irrational) pro-Joyce and anti-employee comments. I understand Qantas now has a social-network department and it seemed fairly clear to me they were hard at work, hiding behind the skirt of a company friendly news website; safe from prying IP address trackers.

gobbledock

16th Feb 2012, 00:41

Furthermore, how does Joyce propose to "work with" the unions involved when it appears from the engineers dispute that there was a lack of good faith on behalf of the company in November?Would not this be a breach of QF's SMS, the section on a 'Just Culture'? Perhaps the Screaming Skull and friends should issue AJ with an RCA?

Lookleft

16th Feb 2012, 02:02

Not to mention trolls on Prune.

TIMA9X

16th Feb 2012, 02:18

HFub6MD0DrY

For those who missed it.. plus a response from SP

o9ihdFLsHow

Steve Purvinas from the Aircraft Engineers Union explains brilliantly the job efficiencies already achieved by Australian workers, but Mr Joyce is still not happy....

Great interview SP :D share this video before it gets lost... great points.

73to91

16th Feb 2012, 03:40

Joyce deserves to lose his job: Xenophon

QANTAS boss Alan Joyce seems hell-bent on turning the flying kangaroo into kangaroo stew, independent Senator Nick Xenophon says.

Mr Joyce is the only one at the airline who deserves to lose his job because his brinkmanship cost the airline $194 million and damaged its brand, the South Australia senator told reporters in Adelaide today.

Qantas will slash 500 jobs as part of a major revamp of the struggling airline after a massive fall in first-half profit.

In Adelaide, about 150 jobs will be lost as Qantas consolidates its catering into four centres in Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth.

Senator Xenophon said grounding the airline to end a bitter dispute with unions last year was "completely avoidable" and Mr Joyce could have gone to Fair Work Australia.

"It shows extraordinary gall on the part of Alan Joyce that he unilaterally grounds the airline, costs it $194 million ... and he ends up with a $2 million bonus," the senator said in Adelaide.

He said the Qantas boss seemed hell-bent on outsourcing Qantas, the brand known as Australia's Flying Kangaroo.

"It seems that Alan Joyce's legacy will be to turn the flying kangaroo into kangaroo stew," Senator Xenophon said.

"The only person who deserves to lose their job is Alan Joyce who, through his unilateral brinkmanship, has ... damaged the Qantas brand."

The news comes as statistics showed South Australia's headline unemployment rate has fallen to 5.1 per cent with 400 more South Australians employed in January, compared to December.

Opposition employment spokesman David Pisoni said the job figures did not take into account the recent job cuts announced by Qantas, the banks and Holden.

Read more: Joyce deserves to lose his job: Xenophon | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/business/breaking-news/joyce-deserves-to-lose-his-job-xenophon/story-e6frfkur-1226272913215#ixzz1mW5TI5Az)

woollcott

16th Feb 2012, 03:49

Just a few thoughts..............

I'm tipping Mel heavy to close - and the work to go to Avalon - all those Forstaff people that dont need to be paid by QF........
People at Melb will be offered jobs at Avalon. Those that dont accept them will have to resign. You will still have a job - just relocated slightly.
THERE WILL BE NO PACKAGES!

Then Avalon to close and Brisbane to be the sole Facility............

Sorry to all the guys and girls who lost jobs today. Basically, QF Sydney has stolen all the Australian Airlines Jobs. I hope that when they are in the "wellness centre" in there new Multi Million dollar Wank building they stop and remember

One final thought.

If QF hadnt merged with Australian Airlines, they would have gone down the gurgler years ago...........

What The

16th Feb 2012, 03:59

Yeh. Qantas has gone great guns thanks to the Australian Airlines management. Thanks. I feel so lucky.

woollcott

16th Feb 2012, 04:20

Point I was making is that only QF domestic is the only part that seems to have made a profit

And there are now no ex Australian Airlines mangaement - they all got shafted long ago.........

Last count was 1 x Yank, 1 x Kiwi, and several ex Ansett........

The Bungeyed Bandit

16th Feb 2012, 04:45

Yeah great, let's have a Red tail v Blue tail bitch slap.

ILikeToGetAround

16th Feb 2012, 04:51

I have compiled an analysis of the today's route cuts:

Qantas cuts India and Auckland to LA « I like to get around (http://davidkeating.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/qantas-cuts-india-and-auckland-to-la/)

Cutting AKL-LAX has meant that the LAX-JFK tag has to be bumped up to a B747. However, Alan Joyce is on record (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/alan-joyce-defends-new-path-for-qantas/story-e6frg95x-1226132470501)stating that the B747 is unprofitable for this flight. In particular, they are upgauging the aircraft whilst shrinking the amount of feed at LAX:

http://davidkeating.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/qf-jfk-tag.jpg?w=630&h=338

India is a low-yielding market - you could buy $800 return tickets MEL-SIN-BOM during the middle of peak season, and I contemplated using it as a cheap means of getting up to Europe in July. It seems a pity that the A333 freed up by axing BOM will not be used to open a new tag-on out of Singapore, however.

Mr.Buzzy

16th Feb 2012, 05:02

Piss f$&ken' weak, the whole lot of you!
When is an appropriate time to start serving it back? When exactly does this mass sick day happen?

Bbbbbbbbbzbzbzbbzbzzbbzzbbzbzzzzzz

TIMA9X

16th Feb 2012, 05:15

vIiikswjI_Q

And this important piece from yesterday.... interesting angle....

B772

16th Feb 2012, 05:30

Interesting to read the announcement by Lufthansa Tecknik re a $30M A380 hangar in MNL and the workforce to be expanded to 2,700. I assume this is for the QF A380's

Yamma

16th Feb 2012, 05:39

Mr.Buzzy (http://www.pprune.org/members/90509-mr-buzzy)

I agree, everyone talks the big talk on the flight deck about a "sick out", but when it comes to it everyone is too scared....well if something is not done soon it will all be too late!

Oakape

16th Feb 2012, 05:57

None of the job losses due to off-shoring. The positions are no longer required.

Once the jobs have gone, lets see how long it is before some entirely new positions are created off-shore. That's if you can spot them in the tangled web of deceit.

It's all spin.

denabol

16th Feb 2012, 06:08

There is an interesting reference in Plane Talking this arvo to QLD's normal habit of paying for airline investments to choose Brisbane as a base.

Ben suggests it will have to be a big inducement to secure Brisbane as the home for all Qantas heavy maintenance in time for the QLD election.

He also compares Joyce's package to the reduced profit it made.

Qantas half year results are just plane awful | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/02/16/forget-the-apologists-this-is-a-terrible-qantas-result/)

flyby

16th Feb 2012, 06:12

How convenient - Qantas a hopeless case and struggle street Jetstar now making a group saving profit.

I think some creative accounting has been done here - And all to justify the boards evil plans.
I really hope one day the pendulum swings back and hits the like of Joyce squarely in the face.

Mr.Buzzy

16th Feb 2012, 06:19

No sh$t Sherlock!
The question is. How much longer are you lot going to keep bending and paying for the Vas?

Strike or be struck.........

Bbbbbbbbbzbbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzbzb

standard unit

16th Feb 2012, 06:34

It may have already started.

Evidently he was booed by the passengers in Singapore airport's lounge recently.

TIMA9X

16th Feb 2012, 06:34

It's all spin.I agree, after looking at all the media generated from AJ's announcement today it appears the only person to even be close is Ben Sandilands with this piece (below).. which pretty much sums up the whole debacle for the last twelve months..

ignore the apologists, this is a terrible Qantas result

No amount of third party apologies for this morning’s announcement of the dismal financial performance of Qantas for the half year to 31 December can change the force of the figures.
The statutory Qantas net profit after tax for the period has fallen to $42 million, a decline of 83% compared to the corresponding previous half year of $ 241 million, or down to a fraction more than eight times the soaring $5 million pay package of The Australian’s most influential CEO of the year, Alan Joyce.
Never in the 90 year history of the airline has the disparity between executive reward and performance been more at variance.
By its favored metric of underlying profit before tax, the corresponding fall was from $417 million to $202 million, a 52% decline.
For ordinary shareholders the disaster is compounded by a pathetic share price and an extension of the dividend drought into its third year.
Perhaps this disaster, papered over by an assortment of public apologists this afternoon as something essential for the future health of the carrier, (which is about as silly a statement as it is possible to make) explains why Joyce seemed subdued in comparison to some of his recent performances in defence of a five year plan to return it to profitability within as little as three years.
This calls for reducing the size of the full service brand and launching a premium narrow body venture operating as a Malaysia flag carrier in order to fund a reinvestment in the full service long haul operation with the consent, of course, of the majority Malaysia ownership of the enterprise, who will be on top, very on top.
In fact this venture, for which Red Q was seriously proposed as a trendy brand name, appears to be all but dead, judging from Joyce’s commentary today.
He said negotiations were continuing with Malaysia partners to jointly launch a new brand ‘targeting’ premium travellers in Asia but that Qantas wanted a capital light structure in which it paid as little as possible for the fleet.
The point is that Kuala Lumpur is far less relevant to its premium traveller ambitions that its Singapore hub, where Qantas bases its Jetstar Asia franchise, which is the prime competitor to Malaysia’s Air Asia franchise, which in turn is seen as a partner in the premium carrier venture and happens to claim title to a significant shareholding in Malaysia Airlines through its founder Tony Fernandes.
To summarise, Joyce is still trying to set up a premium Asia flag carrier in Malaysia in conjunction with Jetstar’s most capable competitor for next to nothing in return for an earning stream he previously said would save long haul Qantas, which he further reduced today with the retirement of two more 747-400s and the cutting of routes between Singapore and Mumbai and Auckland and Los Angeles as reported in earlier coverage (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2012/02/16/qantas-cuts-profits-routes-jets-and-jobs/) of today’s half yearly results.
In terms of job cuts, the news of 500 positions rendered structurally redundant from today is but a down payment.
Many of these additional as yet unannounced job losses are expected to arise from a consultative review into the consolidation of three heavy maintenance bases (Avalon 660 jobs) Melbourne Airport (400) and Brisbane (400) to determine whether they will become one or two such bases.
It would be astonishing if the Queensland government failed to behave as it has always behaved in attraction new airline industry investments, by launching a bidding war should Victoria wish to engage in one, to consolidated all Qantas heavy maintenance at Brisbane Airport. Indeed I think I heard an opening bid of $26 million in the background today! Can a deal be done before the Queensland state elections on 24 March? It seems awfully tight. $260 million might get the conversation going.
Joyce made the telling point that modern jets, like those Qantas is no longer acquiring as rapidly as intended, need a lesser investment in heavy maintenance than older designs. However he glossed over the process by which Australian engineering and maintenance standards are being harmonized downwards into world’s best practice in terms of our national regulations. World’s best practice is nothing more or less than the absolute minimum required to conform to international regulations. The regulatory reform process, which sets out to achieve admirable and desirable outcomes, also sets up spending on higher than minimum standards for a fall.
There are two issues here. Standards, and processes. The upgrading of processes as a foil for reducing the level of excellence is a sensitive issue in the US, not just in Australia.
Today’s announcement refers to reducing capital expenditure by around $700 million a year, which Joyce several weeks ago identified as the gap between around $1.7 billion in annual cash flows and a need to spend $2.5 billion a year on new fuel efficient fleet.
Perversely, part of that $700 reduction is flagged today as a consequence of deferring some new jet deliveries whose superior fuel efficiency and reduced maintenance requirements is the most important thing Qantas can do to reduce its costs.
The Qantas half yearly results assign a cost of $194 million to last year’s industrial disputes and the subsequent grounding of the airline, or locking out of its customers.
This figure could be argued as the ideological levy of the Leigh Clifford chaired Qantas on its shareholders and customers. The dispute with the licensed engineers, pilots and ground handlers led to court protected industrial action in part because of the inability of management to engage in timely negotiations. That action was eventually terminated by Fair Work Australia, the same body that allowed it, which has so far by mutual consent, approved a settlement for the licensed engineers that is totally unremarkable and could have been agreed almost a year ago.
Joyce said that none of the job losses that would result from reducing capital expenditure by $700 million a year would go offshore. They would instead disappear.
He also vowed that the greater part of heavy aircraft maintenance of Qantas jets would remain in Australia, while noting that when the much delayed Boeing 787 Dreamliners begin to arrive, they will not require any heavy maintenance for 12 years. Or so Boeing says.
It is separately understood that all the 50 Dreamliners on order will be based offshore, unless the carrier chooses to change course and use them as urgent replacements for domestic 767s which have become a major headache for the Qantas in terms of reliability and the costs of aged airframe maintenance.
What does this mean for Qantas customers? Fuller domestic jets, and even fewer international options than now in terms of flying in Qantas jets rather than mid-trip changes to other foreign carriers.
What does it mean for Qantas employees? Continued fears of substantial job losses.
What does it mean for Qantas shareholders? No sign of dividends, and every sign of a share price, which despite a 6% spike this afternoon, is way short of its listing price in 1995 dollars, and wallowing in its most prolonged state of depression since privatizationIt is my view (and way before the industrial action commenced) AJ was and more than ever the wrong guy to front Qantas. The body language of CFO Gareth Evans in the live announcement clip (previous page) says it all, only God can help us now, and I am not religious...

One Eye Redundant

16th Feb 2012, 07:38

Let me get this right.

We have a CEO who picks fights with his staff (only later to go back and agree to a deal that was on the table back in March last year), grounds the airline for days and then claims that engineering needs to be downsized due to a lower profit. This lower profit was only caused by him and the board.

I am pretty sure that if the engineers go back to a work to rule (as per the Qantas policy manual) it would be proven that there are not enough engineers to handle the current workload. If they just happened to play dirty and "go slow" as well, the airline would be in all sorts of trouble.

Luckily for Qantas, the only people willing to play dirty are AJ and his grubby little board.

This is an airline founded by pilots and engineers that is being destroyed by corporate greed. I have seen nothing but absolute integrity shown by the engineers through this whole debacle.

Can't say the same for the greedy dirtbags who run this company.

Rant over.

Yamma

16th Feb 2012, 08:27

gobbledock (http://www.pprune.org/members/313405-gobbledock)

Thats a great idea!

"hello I would like a big mac and french fries thanks", "Oh and do you know this guy he is the boss of Q, he is a real :mad:"?

Well I will let you order your food first as I will be pi$$ing myself laughing at you.:sad:

THE PUBLIC DOESN'T care...how long until we realise it. The public (including the media) can not and will never be able to tell a business how to run.

The only thing that can be done is sickouts, go slow programs etc. As for the SMH or any other media ringing Q and saying "come on please do it or I will spread a bad word with you at famous restaurant chains is not going to do anything!:ugh:

BIG business ($$$) - Vs whats right = Business will always win in reality

But certainly keep the great ideas flowing

Long Bay Mauler

16th Feb 2012, 08:29

Its quite simple really.

No aeroplanes = Less Maintenance = Less engineers

Problem solved :ugh:

ohallen

16th Feb 2012, 08:53

No one has mentioned the most telling absence...where is the news on Red Q or whatever it is called.

How long can AJ get away with this complete con and no one holds him to account.

I thought Execs were paid to actually run an airline. these idiots have no strategy, no vision for the future and just keep shutting things down. Any idiot could do that, so why are they worth millions?

AN1944

16th Feb 2012, 08:55

Who will this a..... Hole blame iff an overseas maint aircraft falls out of the sky they are machines they wear out not fixed properly wont stay up there:=

gobbledock

16th Feb 2012, 09:51

Cant wait for the 787. Then you will have both it and the Dugong both grounded together due to design flaws. That is obviously his fantasy, he has a thing for having an airline that sits on the ground!!

Joyce, to borrow an expression from Ervin Staub in 'The Roots Of Evil' has 'completely excluded himself from our moral universe'. The interventions of conscience do not apply to him.
Or in layman terms he is a turd.

teresa green

16th Feb 2012, 10:08

After his success at Air Lingus, and who could doubt his contribution to Ansett, we now have him turn his attention to QF, and the same feeling of uncertainty, the same feeling of uneasiness, the same feeling that we might be seeing the whole horrible Ansett scenario start all over again. It was never meant to be like this, not QF, always the boss, always the chief, always the National Carrier, could two men really reduce it to nothing in such a short time and get away with it? It would appear so.

B772

16th Feb 2012, 11:02

ohallen.

Apparently the interest in "Red Q" or whatever waned when SQ decided to form Scoot and announced SYD as the first destination. With Scoot announcing OOL as it's second destination and possibly BNE as it's third destination people are asking where is Jetstar ?

StallBoy

16th Feb 2012, 11:10

The sooner Qantas gets rid of all those aluminy things and concentrates on it's core business the sooner they will start turning a profit again. Why they fly aeroplanes to anywhere in the world beats me seen as the Qantas board doesn't have anyone with airline experience on it what do these people do for theit exorbitant salaries??????:( Any person who could flip a 20cent coin would have come up with better solutions than the conga line of fools who have run Qantas since it was privatised.:ok:

Kharon

16th Feb 2012, 11:36

I am happy to allow more educated pens than mine explain the ways and means the stock market has of dealing with, recording and analyzing the way shares can be manipulated, by clever folk.

But, I am quite happy to go on record stating that the answers to everyone's questions may be found there; it may take a little digging but seek, and ye shall find.

The 'airlines' well being (or not) is essentially immaterial, the riddle of the root of all evil holds the answers.

There simply is no other logical equation that answers all the questions.

Holmes - "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth".Sad - you bet.

Managers Perspective

16th Feb 2012, 11:40

Who will this a..... Hole blame iff an overseas maint aircraft falls out of the sky they are machines they wear out not fixed properly wont stay up there

C'mon guys, do you really think you are the only ones in the world that can maintain aircraft?

Time to burst open the doors of the "sheltered workshop" and let some long awaited reality in.

MP

gobbledock

16th Feb 2012, 11:52

And the real money in all of this is not the Irish turds salary, bonuses, retention payment, and other methods of filling his pocket, the egg hunt goes well beyond what can be seen. I have a well positioned source who although he won't name names, he recommends that one researches not the names of the executive managers but the names of their faEmily members, friends, lovers, closest business partners etc and see what companies, consultancies and suppliers names start popping up that are linked. That is where the big money earning schemes for the upper echelon sits. Apparently there may also just happen to be small to medium size service providers who provide PR training, accountancy, safety, I.T, management training and all sorts of little services that all add up to a small tidy fortune overall for some select individuals!

P.S Could somebody please advise Cosgrove that gorging from the QF trough is not doing his girth any good. Not a good look those tent sized suits he is borrowing from Laurrie Oakes.

flats1

16th Feb 2012, 11:55

mmm .....pre "merger" AA 44 staff per A/C QF 85 staff per A/C

gobbledock

16th Feb 2012, 12:02

Oh no, here they come! New Trolls, old Trolls, Ken B will be along next!
Looks like the QF spin machine has detected some anti QF feedback and it is time to 'summon the QF sleepers', the call has gone out to counteract the negative comments.

600ft-lb

16th Feb 2012, 12:04

Hope you're not affected with the 'realignment' Mr Managers Perspective. Imagine having to 'manage' people outside of the sheltered workshop.

Fliegenmong

16th Feb 2012, 12:19

Oh go on....

http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/476975-big-announcement-coming-qf-9.html

Really?

Fliegenmong

16th Feb 2012, 12:21

I meant this.........

Australian Airlines - You Should See Us Now I - Australian Ad 1990 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=Z3BQXesb7iE)

QF94

16th Feb 2012, 13:43

C'mon guys, do you really think you are the only ones in the world that can maintain aircraft?

Time to burst open the doors of the "sheltered workshop" and let some long awaited reality in.

MP

Of course we're not the only ones in the world that can maintain aircraft. No one else maintained aircraft like we did though. QANTAS was once the benchmark that everyone else looked to. Now, we're just like everyone else and getting worse.

From an engineer's perspective, we took ownership of the aircraft we worked on. We didn't just do the jobs the cards said to do. If we saw a problem outside the "zone", it was fixed.

Aircraft reliability WAS at an all-time high. Aircraft groundings were virtually unheard of. Sure inflight service may not have been the best, but our aircraft were.

And as Mr Joyce said today, "We can't keep propping up the past with the future". What clowns like yourself MP and the twelve sitting perched on the board don't realise or care about is that if it wasn't for the maintenance practices of the past we wouldn't have made it to today.

MP, I hope you feel all safe and secure when you fly on an aeroplane that is maintained to just the bare minimum, because you may just make a landing on your bare backside.

I hope I've opened the doors wide enough to let enough reality into your sheltered workshop and your very narrow perspective of what aircraft maintenance should be.

TIMA9X

16th Feb 2012, 14:47

DmkFVb30Z78

Last nights Lateline/Business report for those who missed it

Sunfish

16th Feb 2012, 21:01

Qantas is in its death spiral. That is the general idea. Destroy the workforce and corporate intelligence, then take it private and start again.

That cruise I took around NZ really opened my eyes to what the future holds for the average worker if the powers that be get their way. The organisation of that cruiseship was so slick it was frightening.

1. Employment on short term contracts with no guarantee of renewal. That enures that Labor can never again organise itself because "troublemakers" don't get their contracts renewed. The cruise ship staff are all on Six month contracts. They change some staff at the end of each voyage - about Ten percent by my reckoning, its a continuous roll over process so that crews cannot form any relationships with each other past Six months.

2. Deliberate employment of foreign workers from a wide variety of countries. This is a divide and conquer strategy that further prevents unionisation.

The benefit of this strategy, apart from preventing unionisation are:

(i) Managers have absolute power over workers. One bark and your contract won't be renewed.

(ii) The company can keep the age of its workforce constant by removing older workers. Forget about stuff like maternity leave as well. This approach also solves the "old boiler" problem.

(iii) Wages can be kept constant at the minimum rate for English speakers. The "front of house" cruise ship staff came from Romania, Ukraine, Mexico, Thailand and a variety of other low cost countries. Engineers don't need English because the passengers don't see them. They may need a translator though.

(iiii) There an be no question of informal leaders arising based on experience and capability. You cannot challenge the Manager.

The assumptions management must make to implement this strategy are as follows:

(a) Organisational memory, skill and expertise is not required because every action can be reduced to a written procedure and the work performed by a machine if at all possible. The expertise and skill must only reside in management. All else are worker bees.

(b) There is an inexhaustible supply of people who will work for peanuts.

(c) Governments will take no action to impede the process, nor will the public put pressure on Government to act.

It appears that this is the Qantas philosophy.

Joyce has already said that modern aircraft fix themselves and don't need a skilled workforce to maintain them. Check box (a).

Joyce is already hiring foreign crews. Check box (b).

Joyce alternatively threatens and cajoles Government. Check box (c).

Unless tthe average Australian reacts, their future is rather bleak.

PPRuNeUser0161

16th Feb 2012, 22:32

On the news last night they said 50 pilots to be leave without pay, so how will hey choose these lucky few?

SN

Wally Mk2

16th Feb 2012, 22:37

Some 23 yrs ago there was a saying getting bantered around just prior to WW3..........."get yr affairs in order", Powerful words they where that apply today in our industry that is in crisis & is very fragile.

To think that AJ is 10 years younger than me & yet he's already made more enemies than anyone could over 10 life times!!!:ugh:

Why wreck QF? ..........'cause it's wreckable"!!

Wmk2

teresa green

16th Feb 2012, 22:47

Well spoken QF94, and from a old Aviator, the type of Ginger you were/are were the very people who sent us off confident of the equipment you gave us, sadly for the pilots of the future they will not have the same confidence, not thru any fault of the Ginger that signs you out, but because of the fools that don't recognise that a aircraft that is fully maintained in Australia seamlessly, is generally a aircraft that is fairly good nick. Australia's record of safety is no coincidence, it is because of the extremely high engineering standards and flight crew training, but these fools are prepared to risk all this for the dollar, and we all know its not a case of if, but when, the first aircraft shaped hole emerges. We all know already it will not be the fault of management, that they will move heaven and earth to pin it on the probably deceased flight crew or the hapless LAME that signed it out. But try telling the public that, convinced that the evil unions are destroying the company, and Joyce is a manna from heaven, and because of their hatred and loathing of the present govt/unions, they will not be convinced until the inevitable happens. Meanwhile the pilots just pray they have engineers like QF94, who despite the crap he and his colleagues have to endure, they do what they do best, send out a aircraft that is as serviceable as it can be, even if they are not sure if the parts are authentic, or serviced as they should be. In my time that was never a question.

oxbow

16th Feb 2012, 23:36

Sorry, havent read all the thread but why would there be a big ad on seek.co.nz looking for engineers to setup a new widebody aircraft maintenance operation in or near the Auckland region. Coincidence or ??

Jethro Gibbs

16th Feb 2012, 23:46

The advert on Seek is from Bermil more likely its for Hamilton which is not near Auckland its a 2 hour drive away for a small operater.

Mr Leslie Chow

17th Feb 2012, 00:07

Sunfish I think Tiger does this already with their Cabin Crew.

18 months is the expected time they are there for then go to other companies.

No established culture, young and underpaid - so they leave for 'greener pastures'. But I feel that in years to come this type of endervaluing of experience and company culture will be studied under the subject "managerial failures"

The 99% are also getting more pissed off me thinks - you can not treat staff with such disrespect and expect people to do their best with staff.

Finally, what the leprec**t, his retarded replacement at the cancer and others of the same management school of f***wits do not know is that the more you treat staff like lemmings - typically people will revolt in subversive ways - like stealing company property (booze etc) and create extra costs that are not easily identifiable.

Respect is a two way street you dumbasses :=

oxbow

17th Feb 2012, 00:11

Hamilton? Bermil? Didnt think there was any operator down there with WideBody rqrmnts. Sorry, not in NZ at the moment so a bit out of touch locally.

Jethro Gibbs

17th Feb 2012, 00:33

That's right there not its for some small joint that does paint work Bermil are bulltishing in the advert see APS Ltd » APS Ltd (http://www.aviationpaintingservices.co.nz/) Bermil is just one guy operating out of his Home.
Not so out of touch :ok:

waren9

17th Feb 2012, 00:44

cfukme ejthro thatw ashar dtoread

oxbow

17th Feb 2012, 01:02

Ahh, and theres me thinking summat big. But the contact is with Bermil Aerospace and looks like a Sydney number? Oh well, better head off to the sack....daily grind tomorrow!

73to91

17th Feb 2012, 01:10

QUEENSLAND Premier Anna Bligh says her government will take legal action against Qantas if it moves a single job out of Brisbane's heavy maintenance facility.

"Qantas is under a contract with the Queensland government until 2014 and we won't be hesitating to exercise penalties under that contract,'' she told reporters in Brisbane today.

"The Queensland government brought Qantas' heavy maintenance facility here to Queensland and right now it employs more than 600 people.

"We will fight tooth and nail to keep every single job at this Qantas facility.

"This is their newest facility, it's their most state of the art, it is the most efficient.

"They should be bringing more jobs to the Brisbane heavy maintenance facility, not taking any away.''

The airline yesterday said 500 positions would go from catering, cabin crew, pilots, engineering and ground operations. The cuts are on top of 1000 Qantas earlier said would be shed.

Qantas is also reviewing its heavy maintenance facilities, with the aim of consolidating three facilities in Brisbane, Melbourne and Avalon, near Geelong.

Read more: Premier Bligh says government will take action if Qantas moves jobs | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/premier-bligh-says-government-will-take-action-if-qantas-moves-jobs/story-e6frfku0-1226273750532#ixzz1mbJtTgXR)

So next year they have someone else to blame for their fall in profit. :ugh:

flyingfox

17th Feb 2012, 02:43

I am constantly amazed by the whittling away of Qantas mainline jobs. I recently booked a flight on the Qantas web site and found that it now show both Qantas and Jetstar flights as being one and the same thing. So every (almost) second flight is a Jetstar flight, which should be Qantas work and is sold in place of an equivalent QF flight. No pretence of being a separate company with it's own agenda. Just a strait invasion of Qantas flights by a cut price parasite. If Jetstar is a separate company aiming at a different market, it's flights should not be a substitute for the 'real thing' and should occupy it's own space only. (I am not a Qantas pilot.) This is blatantly a whitanting of Qantas work. QF management are shedding Qantas jobs by moving them to the cheaper (?) operator.

Helmut Smokar

17th Feb 2012, 03:14

Soup Nazi
*On the news last night they said 50 pilots to be leave without pay, so how will hey choose these lucky few?

They won't have to. They are already in the process of leaving. 180 already gone and I personally know of about 9 guys going through the interview process to take up LWOP positions at the moment.

QF94

17th Feb 2012, 03:21

Teresa, I still am an engineer with QANTAS. I intend to be till the end. I, and many like myself will delay an aircraft if need be if it's not right. We use the mantra of management "Safety Before Schedule". They don't like us using it if it causes a delay, but they'll put it out in the media to show that they are carrying the legacy of QANTAS tradition if there's a PR problem.

It's not just the engineers, it's also the pilots (the more experienced ones anyway) that can bung on an argument if necessary also. If they're not happy, we'll sort out what we can.

We have no intention of delaying passengers unnecessarily. Why would we do that? Passengers are our bread and butter. Every employee in the company, any company for that matter, knows this. It is the safety of the aircraft and its crew and passengers that matter most. Better to leave an hour, two hours or even eight hours late than either not make it, or have to divert and layover for spares and repairs. Prevention is better than cure.

As you say, when there's an aircraft shaped hole in the ground, who will be blamed? Certainly not the dirty dozen on the board.

baron_beeza

17th Feb 2012, 03:24

That's right there not its for some small joint that does paint work Bermil are bulltishing in the advert see APS Ltd

I am not sure if that is correct Jethro. APS is a paint shop off-spring of Fieldair, a Palmerston North based company.
The Bermil advert was for senior management staff and the likes and I don't know if it was established if it was for another Fieldair enterprise or indeed in Hamilton.
I have certainly heard nothing more within NZ about it so they may just be doing expressions of interest as part of a feasibility study.

Another option is that the key APS team in Hamilton, all with Fieldair origins, may possibly be returning to Palmerston North.
Have you heard something more about the venture there ?
I am sure it will not be targeting wide-body jets wherever it may be.

QF94

17th Feb 2012, 03:31

16 February 2012
Mr Steve Purvinas
Federal Secretary
Australian Licensed Aircraft Engineers Association
25 Stoney Creek Road
BEXLEY NSW 2207
By Email: [email protected]
Dear Steve,
RE: Qantas Engineering Restructure· Consultation
Today Alan Joyce, Chief Executive Officer, made a series of announcements some of which affect ALAEA covered areas within Qantas Engineering.

• Aircraft Airworthiness
The Aircraft Airworthiness (AA) division of Qantas Engineering currently operates over two sites, with responsibility for airworthiness of the Boeing 737-800 fleet residing in Melbourne and airworthiness of the remainder of Qantas' fleet types residing in Sydney. A decision has been made to consolidate the Melbourne AA operations into Sydney. As a result of this decision, approximately 90 Melbourne based positions will become redundant as the Melbourne AA operations transition to Sydney. It is anticipated that the transition of AA operations into Sydney will be completed by February 2013.

• Supply Chain
A decision has been made to consolidate the Qantas Engineering Supply Chain (QESC) Melbourne based support functions into Sydney. As a result of this decision, approximately 60 Melbourne based positions will become redundant as QESC operations transition to Sydney. It is anticipated that the transition of QESC operations into Sydney will take place over the next six to eight months.

• Maintenance Operations Centre
A decision has been made to consolidate Maintenance Operations Centre (MOC) Melbourne based operations into Sydney. As a result of this decision, approximately 31 Melbourne based positions will become redundant as MOC operations transition to Sydney. It is anticipated that the transition of MOC operations into Sydney will be completed by August 2012.

• Line Maintenance Operations - Maintenance on Demand
A decision has been made to implement Maintenance on Demand on Qantas' fleet of Airbus 330s and Boeing 737 -800s. No decision has been made in relation to Receipt and Despatch at this stage. As a result of this decision, approximately 30 LAME positions will become redundant.

• Line Maintenance Operations - Fleet Reductions and Network Changes
Today, Qantas announced the retirement of two Boeing 747-400s, in addition to the four aircraft retirements that were announced in August 201 1. As a result of these decisions, approximately 71 employees across the Sydney Aircraft Maintenance (SAM) and Sydney International Terminal (SIT) business units will become redundant. This number will include both LAMEs and AMEs, and is comprised of:

• 30 redundancies as a result of the aircraft retirements announced in August 2011 (you were advised of these redundancies at the time); and
• 41 redundancies as a result of the additional aircraft retirements announced today.

As discussed with you this morning, we would like to meet with ALAEA representatives as soon as possible in order to establish appropriate consultation arrangements in relation to these decisions, and I will liaise with you or your office to make those arrangements.

In addition to the above, Qantas has also announced its intention to consult with relevant unions in relation to its Heavy Maintenance operations, so that any decision made in relation to Qantas' Heavy Maintenance operations can take into account your views. We will discuss this process with you when we meet to discuss the above matters.

Sue Bussell
EXECUTIVE MANAGER INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS
Qantas Airways

This has just come in this afternoon. 30 engineer positions for four known aircraft to be retired, plus an additonal 41 engineer positions for the additional two aircraft. I'd like to know the genius that came up with this mathematical stuff up. I know they won't justify it, so I won't bother asking them to. On those figures, plus the 83% decline in profits for the six months to December 2011, what would that translate to managerial redundancies? Any offers?

Bagus

17th Feb 2012, 04:17

Why does AJ compares aircraft with cars,why not compare with boats

Short_Circuit

17th Feb 2012, 04:21

Since when is;
$202M EBIT plus
$194M lost grounding fleet plus
$150M spent fighting unions
= $546,000,000 (half a Billion dollars) which is what was earned this half, sound like a record profit to me??? :confused:

Dunnocks

17th Feb 2012, 06:42

QF94

17th Feb 2012, 06:51

Why does AJ compares aircraft with cars,why not compare with boats

Because comparing aircraft with marine craft would be comparing two similar industries. Both are expensive to purchase initially, maintenance costs are high and inspections are more thorough and stringent than cars.

If you don't maintain your car, who cares? Who ensures that you're maintaining your car to manufacturer's specifications? No one! If you don't maintain your boats or planes, you will run into costly repairs and you can run into trouble with the regulatory bodies.

QF94

17th Feb 2012, 06:58

Mate, I don't blame you for being angry. Tulla has been shafted, and I'm sure there's more to come. Still, Sydney Base and terminals are gonna get a bit of a reaming too.
Nervous few days for those of us that are too far from retirement to take a package, but too old to get another job easily..http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/boohoo.gif

Sydney Heavy got shafted back in 2005. Yes, line and servicing are going get the broom put through them also.

Like you dunnocks, not old enough to retire, but too old to just go and get another job. Anyway, I'm sticking around till they push me out the door, or I depart with the last REAL QANTAS aeroplane, be it the OJ, OE, VZ, VX, VY, QP, EB or OQ series aircraft. The TJ and OG aircraft will be long gone by then.

Jethro Gibbs

17th Feb 2012, 07:06

This Document on Brisbane makes interesting reading now more than ever .http://www.sd.qld.gov.au/dsdweb/docs-bin/v2/major_proj/mpc03_10_qantas.pdf
Where is Mr Mc Dermott now ?

Syd eng

17th Feb 2012, 07:40

He was and I think he still is the manager for Finance/planning and other non maintenance departments in Sydney Aircraft Maintenance.

Bagus

17th Feb 2012, 07:58

Related News:
Asia**· Transportation
Singapore Airlines’ Profit Tumbles 53% on Rising Fuel Costs, Competition
By Jasmine Wang - Feb 2, 2012 10:14 PM
QF is not the only one,

Bagus

17th Feb 2012, 21:47

If u look at cars handbook there are more inspection requirement than the older model,so how come aircraft maintenance inspection requirement is less now.

73to91

17th Feb 2012, 22:23

and more often Bagus, either every x months or so many k's what ever comes first.

So, AJ's new fleet would be grounded more often, wouldn't they?

V-Jet

18th Feb 2012, 05:16

If u look at cars handbook there are more inspection requirement than the older model,so how come aircraft maintenance inspection requirement is less now.

This is depressing and I don't know why I even bother. You can't argue with idiots or Leprechauns but....

Can someone tell me where all these new aircraft that don't need maintenance are? Apart from the 380 (and that seems to be an unfolding story) I can't think of many. I would suggest on that premise that the most rudimentary glance at the QF fleet makeup could only lead one to think we need MORE engineers and maintenance rather than less....

neville_nobody

18th Feb 2012, 06:03

Can someone tell me where all these new aircraft that don't need maintenance are?

I think the idea is that the 787 will reduce the amount of maintenance required because of the type of materials used. Just some sort of a ultrasound will cover the airframe.

However if they keep finding cracks and problems with these new gen aircraft, then the amount inspections and maintenance is going to be nowhere near what is planned and Alan may have to eat his words. However by the time that happens and they need to recruit a large amount of LAMEs Alan won't be around.

Wally Mk2

18th Feb 2012, 06:09

Don't 4get when the goose AJ was saying comparing car servicing to A/C he was preaching to the masses out there,the gen public who generally haven't got a clue & believe everything that's on Ch 7, not those of us who know better,pilots ginger beers etc.
QF is hanging on by a thread mainly due to it's good name & the hard working people who are actually QF.

Wmk2

Arnold E

18th Feb 2012, 06:51

Alan may have to eat his words.

I dont know this .................person???( cant think of any other word that the mods would let go") but one thing I can assure you of is that he will NEVER eat his words, regardless of ANY outcome.:(

Jethro Gibbs

18th Feb 2012, 07:49

If People are made Redundant at Avalon does Forstaff have the funds to pay everyone out ?

baron_beeza

18th Feb 2012, 08:02

If People are made Redundant at Avalon does Forstaff have the funds to pay everyone out ?

It is the way to make money in aviation. Take the redundancy every time it is offered.

Wouldn't a percentage of the staff there be contractors though ?
All part and parcel of the package.
Life goes on..

Jethro Gibbs

18th Feb 2012, 08:48

I would think 90% work for Forstaff they are not contractors and 5% are qantas staff.

BrissySparkyCoit

18th Feb 2012, 09:23

Question. If they close down Brisbane and/or Tulla (anything is likely with these clowns), will all the 457 visas at Avalon be revoked as there is now a surplus of skilled aircraft maintenance engineers?

ACT Crusader

18th Feb 2012, 11:54

If People are made Redundant at Avalon does Forstaff have the funds to pay everyone out ?

Jethro I would think a publicly listed company like Chandler Macleod would have plenty in the bank if that were to occur for Forstaff Avalon workers. Record profit and revenue in 2011 also.....

empire4

19th Feb 2012, 03:07

457 visa at Avalon? What about the fact ALG are still advertising to supply 457 visa's? One would expect the government to step in on this matter already, but then again its the government that has brought us here in the first place. Things are going to get a lot worse before they get better. BAN all 457 visa's for the aviation industry. Where is the ALAEA. Oh, its too hard for them or they are in bed with Chris Bowen.

QF94

19th Feb 2012, 04:50

Where is the ALAEA. Oh, its too hard for them or they are in bed with Chris Bowen.

empire4, I don't know what magical wand you expect the ALAEA to wave to fix this. This is bigger than them, and very much the government. The incompetence and ineptness of this government won't stop the blood-letting of QANTAS. Hell, they can't even stop the blood-letting within their own party.

Unfortunately, the only thing that can stop QANTAS going under altogether is the sacking of the board in its entirety and placing actual QANTAS management (those with more than 20 years within the company) in their place. Now out of about 35,000 employees, there will be at least 12 who can do the job and do it for the benefit of the company and for a lot less money than the current board. There isn't one current board member that was a QANTAS employee. The company is a cash cow for them and when the last cent is siphoned off, they will move on.

This board has no historical ties or working ties with QANTAS. To them it is a "brand" and while it lines their pockets, they will milk it.

If you have any better sloutions, then place them on the table.

Splitpin44

19th Feb 2012, 05:02

I would like to see Qantas get this guy in on a 457 visa. Would be worth it!:D

The greatest CEO in the world : theCHIVE (http://thechive.com/2012/02/16/the-greatest-ceo-in-the-world-6-photos/)

QF94

19th Feb 2012, 08:41

I would have no problem with a CEO making $1million a year so long as he/she does what he/she is meant to do. Run the company to the best they can and grow the company. Make viable decisions and actually know what they are doing.

Better still, have them climb through the ranks of the company before taking the top job. One name springs to mind, John Borghetti. But that's right, the outsiders in the board said he wasn't good enough to run QANTAS and wasn't the right "board material".

Jethro Gibbs

19th Feb 2012, 09:19

empire4 is right why are ALG Looking for 457 VISA Sponsorship Aircraft Maintenance Engineers to work at Qantas ALAEA should be jumping up and down about this.

Mstr Caution

19th Feb 2012, 10:13

Cookies must be enabled. | The Australian (http://m.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/jetstar-in-three-way-talks-on-bases/story-e6frg95x-1225785574536)

Am I missing something here?

Qantas boss Alan Joyce states a reduction in Heavy Maintanence Engineers is required as new aircraft don't need as much Maintanence.

Whilst Jetstar has set up new Heavy Maintainence bases to maintain a fleet of "newer" aircraft & to train engineers who will maintain aircraft for Asian carriers with "newer" aircraft.

MC

empire4

20th Feb 2012, 08:28

QF 94, one thing is sacking the entire board, then replacing them with QF long term staff. Another thing is the reality of what has happened, is happening and will happen. JB was passed over for the top job. It is all very well to live in an ideal world, however all over the real world CEOs and board members are increasingly being filled with academics straight out of uni or straight from another sinking company. It is a world trend. The board will NOT get sacked before Qantas collapses. I'd bet my house on it!
Secondly, staff at QF have to realise that they can't just think about themselves! Having an abundance of 457 visas will hurt anyone looking for a job when they get made redundant. For years QF staff only look out for themselves when a whole industry needs looking out for. We all know there is a surplus of AMEs & LAMEs in Australia. All 457 visas do is allow companies not to train or pay Australians what they should. This is no way raciest, just nationalist!

Hell Alan Joyce came here on a 457 Visa!

QF94

20th Feb 2012, 11:12

empire4, my suggestion of what would save QANTAS was merely that. A suggestion. I know there is no way known to man that this current board will be removed before the demise of QANTAS.

As for QANTAS staff thinking of themselves. I can't see what's wrong with that. When no one else will look out for you, who's left to look out for you? No one will look out for you like you will.

As for who's looking out for the industry. The ALAEA and AIPA are doing what they can, but when CASA and the big end of town undermine everyone, including the government, the industry is basically stuffed. When companies are allowed to virtually self-regulate, they can do what they want.

It's not just QANTAS or the aviation industry that's being eroded, it's very much the whole workforce throughout Australia. You would have only had to listen to the news over the last week or two to see the jobs being shed.

ANZ - 1,000
Westpac - 350-450
QANTAS - 500 (additional to 1,000 last year)
Air Australia - in administration
Rigby Kell (home builder) - bankrupt and a couple of hundred jobs there
Alcoa
Heinz and the list goes on

It seems Australia is great at employing foreigners overseas or bringing them here, and putting local Australians out of work, while the board members get ever increasing paypackets.

Am I selfish for wanting to protect my job and look out for myself. You bet! So should every other worker out there who is going to have their livelihood taken away from them in a diminishing workforce, and all for the benefit of a few snouts in the trough.

mikk_13

20th Feb 2012, 11:46

t's not just QANTAS or the aviation industry that's being eroded, it's very much the whole workforce throughout Australia. You would have only had to listen to the news over the last week or two to see the jobs being shed.

ANZ - 1,000
Westpac - 350-450
QANTAS - 500 (additional to 1,000 last year)
Air Australia - in administration
Rigby Kell (home builder) - bankrupt and a couple of hundred jobs there
Alcoa
Heinz and the list goes on

And this may be a bigger problem then most think. Australian have a record level of personal debt, eg credit cards and houses. A little upset and the ever so great housing industry will start to crack, and before you know it the ranga will bail out the banks with you tax money.

This is all happening with europe going tits up, US in a deep recession/depression, and soon war with Iran. See the trend?

teresa green

20th Feb 2012, 20:08

Mikk13, not a pretty picture. Now retired I like to do a little charity work, and set out to do Meals On Wheels, on a weekly run. This is really soul destroying as I meet pensioners who share meat trays, rather feed their cat then themselves, who have worked hard all their lives, have meague savings, if any at all, will not use any power, because simply frightened of the power bills, so I am confronted with turned off fridges, kero lamps, or even worse, candles. Their rents simply take up most of their pension, and have little or none left over. These people are not gamblers, or alcoholics, they have been the backbone of the country, worked all their lives, brought up their kids, and more often than not still try to help their kids, good decent moral people, and in a rich country like this their plight is a :mad: disgrace. No plasmas, mobiles, houses, fridges, for them, not like the illegals, just a day to day struggle. Like many of the other blokes that do this run, we find ourselves fixing things that the low landlords will not fix, taking them to the doctors, and doing a myriad of other little jobs just to make life bearable for them, we enjoy it, but the whole thing is a blight on this country and a eye opener for the more privileged.

dragon man

20th Feb 2012, 22:40

Well said Teresa Green:D. What is going on in this country out of sight is a disgrace. the train wreck coming in the economy is going to shock many younger people who have never seen a nasty recession like 1974. Its coming and it will hurt a lot of unprepared people.

Normasars

21st Feb 2012, 00:06

Teresa,

Kudos to you sir for the work you do for our suffering aged pensioners who have worked all their lives in this country and contributed to the social fabric of our society, and are now shunned by this absolute rabble and disgrace of a government.
In the mean time, let's all put out the big welcome mat for all the illegals and reward them with a start up grant of $10k and then put a roof over their heads to boot. This country is drowning in welfare and the taxpayers of this great land have a gun at their heads.
This is all going to end in tears; big tears and soon.

Make like the Boy Scouts motto; "Be Prepared"

Ken Borough

21st Feb 2012, 02:22

all put out the big welcome mat for all the illegals

Off topic I know but if you are referring to the asylum seekers who travel to Australia on ricketty boats, they are not 'illegals' as so many think and secribe especially the shock jocks and tabloid TV and newspapers.

It's a popular misconception but boat people are not illegals as they come seeking asylum. The real 'illegals' are those who enter through our primary airports, overstay their visae, and then take jobs from Australians. It is this latter group against whom officialdom and society generally should be railing.

QF94

21st Feb 2012, 04:46

Off topic I know but if you are referring to the asylum seekers who travel to Australia on ricketty boats, they are not 'illegals' as so many think and secribe especially the shock jocks and tabloid TV and newspapers.

It's a popular misconception but boat people are not illegals as they come seeking asylum. The real 'illegals' are those who enter through our primary airports, overstay their visae, and then take jobs from Australians. It is this latter group against whom officialdom and society generally should be railing.

Either way, they are coming here illegally. The "boat people" have already sought refuge from their home in another country (Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.) but want to come to Australia. They have no paperwork to identify who they are. If they have no peperwork, they are illegal!

Either way, they are sucking up welfare that Australians have no access to, and the way things are going, we may all need the welfare to keep newly unemployed people going. Jobs are going offshore and companies are being shut down or downsized. We simply cannot keep going the way we are going. Greece II looks like it can and probably will happen here.

Mr Leslie Chow

21st Feb 2012, 04:49

94 do you mean the movie sequel or the country that just got bailed out about an hour ago?

:E

gobbledock

21st Feb 2012, 05:57

teresa green

21st Feb 2012, 06:08

Right on 94, jeez it pi$$es me off when I see our own, struggling like they do, it really pi$$es me off. One of these days I am going to take their kero lamps and drive to CBR and show those useless bastards what is happening to our own people. Sorry about the diversion Mods, but put it this way, up here on the Goldie a bunch of Pilots, Engineers, and CC have a beer every friday night at one of the surf clubs, we call ourselves "the don't get us started party" Here we solve the problems of QF, JQ, Virgin, all regionals, and the govt. It would be advisable for Joyce never to show, Borgetti is welcome.

the rim

21st Feb 2012, 06:42

well done for your efforts with the poor ....a true "Waverlian" the brothers will be proud of you....I beleive the EOI's will be out soon for line....will be a lot of dissapointement as only 30 slots to cover bne/syd/mel/adl...maybe a few transfers from base might be on the cards to line???????....the rim

Ken Borough

21st Feb 2012, 07:40

As I hate to see people demonised as a result of ignorance, I am reproducing the following from the SBS website in an effort to help allay some misunderstandings:

Asylum seekers who arrive in Australia by boat are neither engaging in illegal activity, nor are they immigrants. The UN Refugee Convention (to which Australia is a signatory) recognises that refugees have a right to enter a country for the purposes of seeking asylum, regardless of how they arrive or whether they hold valid travel or identity documents.

The Convention stipulates that what would usually be considered as illegal actions (e.g. entering a country without a visa) should not be treated as illegal if a person is seeking asylum. This means that it is incorrect to refer to asylum seekers who arrive without authorisation as “illegal”, as they in fact have a right to enter Australia to seek asylum.

In line with our obligations under the Convention, Australian law also permits unauthorised entry into Australia for the purposes of seeking asylum. Asylum seekers do not break any Australian laws simply by arriving on boats or without authorisation.

Australian and international law make these allowances because it is not always safe or practicable for asylum seekers to obtain travel documents or travel through authorised channels.

Refugees are, by definition, persons fleeing persecution and in most cases are being persecuted by their own government. It is often too dangerous for refugees to apply for a passport or exit visa or approach an Australian Embassy for a visa, as such actions could put their lives, and the lives of their families, at risk.

Refugees may also be forced to flee with little notice due to rapidly deteriorating situations and do not have time to apply for travel documents or arrange travel through authorised channels. Permitting asylum seekers to enter a country without travel documents is similar to allowing ambulance drivers to exceed the speed limit in an emergency – the action would ordinarily be considered illegal, but the circumstances warrant an exception.

It is also incorrect to refer to asylum seekers as migrants. A migrant is someone who chooses to leave their country to seek a better life. They make a conscious choice to leave and they can return whenever they like. Refugees are forced to leave their country and cannot return unless the situation that forced them to leave improves. Some are forced to flee without warning; significant numbers of them have suffered torture and trauma. The concerns of refugees are human rights and safety, not economic advantage.

If interested, more information can be read here: Are asylum seekers who arrive by boat illegal immigrants? article | Go Back To Where You Came From on SBS (http://www.sbs.com.au/shows/goback/tab-listings/detail/i/1/article/8261/Are-asylum-seekers-who-arrive-by-boat-illegal-immigrants)

chockchucker

21st Feb 2012, 08:04

............Anyway, back to the topic of this thread.:ugh:

I understand Qantas management and the associated engineering unions held the first of what should be several meetings in Sydney today to discuss the future.

Anybody got any idea as to what came of this meeting? And on exactly what direction Qantas is looking to go with regard to Heavy Maintenance?

Chimbu chuckles

21st Feb 2012, 08:27

Ken they may well have been refugees when they fled in 'terror' from 'persecution' in, for example, Afghanistan into say, Pakistan. By the time they transit through Malaysia and Indonesia and then throw their paperwork overboard enroute to Ashmore Reef they are illegal!!!

Just how many countries does a refugee have to transit before it becomes obvious they are shopping for a better life rather than fleeing persecution?

Make it perfectly clear that if you arrive illegally you don't get 1 dollar of support, let alone the avalanche of money thrown at boat people, and watch the 'refugee' flow into Australia dry up overnight.

Only an idiot would hold up SBS as the final word on illegal immigration.:ugh:

allthecoolnamesarego

21st Feb 2012, 08:40

Read this: Edmund Rice Centre (http://www.erc.org.au/index.php?module=documents&JAS_DocumentManager_op=viewDocument&JAS_Document_id=64)

An extract here
Myth 11: Refugees should stay in the first country they come to and 'join the queue'

Fact: Australia has not taken a single refugee from the UNHCR in Jakarta - from the so-called 'queue' - for more than three years. This is despite the rhetoric from Australian politicians for asylum seekers to be processed in Indonesia. It should also be noted that the UNHCR centre in Indonesia was set up by Australia with Indonesian support. Refugees cannot stay in Indonesia because Indonesia is not a signatory to the Refugee Convention. There is no requirement in international law for refugees to seek asylum in the first country they come to. Some developed countries have made this an additional requirement in order to avoid processing claims, leaving the large numbers of asylum seekers in camps in Third World countries. International law requires that asylum seekers should not be penalised according to the way in which they enter a country. Australia's current policy does not accord with this requirement.

Some people have given up on the 'queue' and resorted to coming by boat. 24 of those who recently died when their ship sank off the coast of Indonesia had already been granted refugee status by the UNHCR in Jakarta. Many more had relations in Australia who had been provided with asylum but were not allowed access to their wives and children. Simply, the 'queue' does not work.

QF94

21st Feb 2012, 09:02

Anyway, getting back on to topic, who's going to employ the thousands of people made redundant recently and how is this going to help our economy?

Chockchucker, I haven't heard the outcome of the meeting today, but what was that relating to "Heavy Maintenance"?

Melbourne is basically shut down for HM. Sydney only has Base Maintenance and Brisbane is forced to stay open because 1) It's new and 2) they have a contract with the defence forces for the maintenance on the 330 tankers. As for other "HM" I don't believe QANTAS is looking at anything within Australia.

It's just a matter of wait and see. All will be revealed......

Jethro Gibbs

21st Feb 2012, 09:35

The company will already know what they are going to do you really think they care what the unions think after just being in a huge barney with them the meetings are just a time wasting exercise.

Jethro Gibbs

21st Feb 2012, 10:26

Any who my thought is it will be BNE its new they own it MEL its old and AVV its old they just rent hangars and Qantas owned equipment could be shipped out over night.
And as for Forstaff no customer means no Forstaff.

SpannerTwister

21st Feb 2012, 13:35

The company will already know what they are going to do you really think they care what the unions think after just being in a huge barney with them the meetings are just a time wasting exercise.100% correct, Unfortunately :mad: !!

My $$'s are on BNE with AVV to stay (for the time being) to handle the 744's.

Not sure if they could physically fit the amount they need to do in the BNE hangar ?

Of course, that opens up "Option B", keeping BNE only and sending all the "overflow" (anything more then one aircraft at a time) overseas ??

ST

givemewings

21st Feb 2012, 14:18

As an aside to the comments regarding refugees, you've got to protect the Australian jobs and economy first, otherwise when we're all unemployed and living on the bare minimum, who'll support the 'refugees' then??

It might seem cruel to stem the flow now but if they take on more than they can handle now, it'll only get worse for them, not better.

Look after the citizens interests first, so they are gainfully employed and financially able to contribute and help those less fortunate.

/thread creep

Capt Claret

22nd Feb 2012, 00:11

QF94

22nd Feb 2012, 00:44

And if Australia was beset by invasion, of the style the Japanese may have inflicted during WWII, or civil war, and Australians were to attempt to depart en masse for a safer haven, how many of you are going to be content to stop in Malaysia, or Thailand, or Indonesia??????

And how many will try to make Europe or the US, where conditions might be perceived to be better??????

Cap'n, as far as I can see, Australia won't be militarily invaded. Civil war? is a possibility, but improbable. Although, having said that, many of the "assylum seekers" bring their baggage of issues with them and end up having their feuds in our country.

When the top end of Australia had the bejesus bombed out of it in WWII, the Australians then did not flee. They put up the best fight they could. I don't believe that Australians would flee Australia because of the following points:
There is no other safe haven like Australia. Not even the USA
Would the likes of Indonesia or Malaysia take on Australians if they did flee? I highly doubt it.
Australians will stay and defend their country (unless of course they just got off a rickety boat from Indonesia, overstayed their student visa or their 457 visa).
We have VERY BIG USAF bases in the NT and Top End that have interests within Australia they wish to protect.
Are we done with the boat people issue? Are we going to put our focus back on the original topic, or is the boat people issue going to be as big as Rudd vs Gillard? If so, start another topic.

Capt Claret

22nd Feb 2012, 01:05

QF94, your probably right about Australia not being militarily invaded but the point is, HAD the Japanese been successful and had they wanted to invade and control the whole of Australia during WW II, Australia and our way of life would be nothing as we know it to be. In these hypothetical scenarios, we'd be the ones looking for sanctuary and I'll wager London to a brick, that not too many of the current xenophobes will be stopping in Indonesia because it's the first country. Nor will they be joining to queue, non existent as it is, to go somewhere to their liking.

Folk should look at photos of POWs of Changi, etc, and then think to themselves, "what would I do if I was treated like that"?

teresa green

22nd Feb 2012, 01:39

Had four uncles in the 8th division, all ended up in Changi, all over 6ft none over 60k when they got back home. Never really recovered. Mate, we would fight till the last Aussie was standing, simple as that and we won't be having a civil war, but right now we are considering a coup.

QF94

22nd Feb 2012, 01:52

Cap'n,

Let's look at what has accompanied "refugees" over the last 40 years.

Home inavasions
Gang warfare (not talking traditional bikies, as they kept their grievances between themselves)
Drive-by shootings
Arms deals
Drug dealing
Yes, there has always been crime in Australia. That's what it was founded on. Convicts sent as far away as possible to form a colony, but the amount and blatant disregard for the laws and the police these "refugees" have is reprehensible.

I'm in Sydney, and there is not a day that goes by that you don't hear about one of the abovementioned points. The origins of these people are either "Mediterranean/Middle Eastern, Asian or Islander. Where are most of the "refugees" coming from? The aforementioned origins. When they get here, and they don't like the conditions, they burn down the detention centre. Why? Because they know that the government and the courts are pi$$ weak. Would these same people have dared to do anything like that in their home country? Not likely, nor should they.

When they arrive on our shores, as illegally as they do, they should not only be kissing the soil of this country, but also our backsides for reaching here and forcing us to give them assylum.

It seems to be only a small percentage of people fleeing thier countries of origin. The masses must seem to think it's still OK to stay. Those fleeing must have done something for the government or military to want them so bad.

But if you feel so strongly about having them here, maybe you should put up a welcome sign on your front lawn or apartment door and give them the refuge they seek. Not all Australians want other countries waste products. We neither have the finances or means to accommodate them, especially when so many of our own are being forced out of work because that same work is going to these countries that these people are fleeing.

unseen

22nd Feb 2012, 02:22

Sorry, must be me, I thought I was on PPRuNe but somehow I have ended up on rightwing.nuts.org.

So it was ok to start Australia with another countries 'waste products' as you so eloquently put it but not anymore?

Bikie gang violence and crime are ok because they usually just keep it amongst themselves? Ever heard of Milperra? Are they harshly/wrongly accused of major drug distribution?

Wow.

Cant wait to see this in print!

QF94

22nd Feb 2012, 02:29

Sorry, must be me, I thought I was on PPRuNe but somehow I have ended up on rightwing.nuts.org.

No, but it looks like you're starting up looneygreenlabor.com.au

It could go on forever about splitting hairs and the number of crimes committed. NO crime is acceptable. Neither is having a gun held to one's head and forcing down our throats that we have to take people we simply can't take or afford to take. Maybe you and captain tipples should start your own half-way house and take on all the refugees you can accommodate and releive the rest of the Australian community of the tax burden in the process.

Unseen, maybe you should remain that way.

Capt Claret

22nd Feb 2012, 02:48

But if you feel so strongly about having them here, maybe you should put up a welcome sign on your front lawn or apartment door

Perhaps I can go one better. My kids are grown but half Arabic on their mother's side. All of their grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, and friends are law abiding responsible citizens. Not a murderer or criminal amongst them.

However, I can't say as much for my Anglo heritages family. I have a brother possibly facing a significant gaol term and he won't be the only white Australian in gaol.

Empathy is obviously not your strong suit. Perhaps you'll be lucky enough, by fluke of birth or whatever causes you to live here, not to be in need of empathy yourself.

Taildragger67

22nd Feb 2012, 03:03

QF94,

I'll start by saying that I generally respect your posts. Second, personally I have no axe to grind here - there are good and bad points re refugees and immigration more generally.

However I respectfully submit that a few of your points here are simply incorrect and cannot stand unchallenged.

1.

Let's look at what has accompanied "refugees" over the last 40 years.

Home inavasions
Gang warfare (not talking traditional bikies, as they kept their grievances between themselves)
Drive-by shootings
Arms deals
Drug dealing

It does not follow that only refugees have brought these blights. I would suggest that the vast majority of refugees (and immigrants) are law-abiding (citizens, as many become) who are simply seeking to provide for their families and educate their kids.

However, I would also suggest that many of the perpetrators of the above are not refugees, but 'legal' immigrants - plus a good smattering of Aussies of more Northern European extraction:

1. Terry Clark (Mr Asia) was a (white Anglo-Saxon) Kiwi;
2. Bikie gangs have also shown to be heavily invovled in the drug trade;
3. As for bikie gangs keeping things between themselves, all I'll say is "Viking Tavern" and "Qantas Sydney domestic terminal";
4. Very few (if any) "Islanders", for example, come to Australia as refugees.

2.

When they arrive on our shores, as illegally as they do, they should not only be kissing the soil of this country, but also our backsides for reaching here and forcing us to give them assylum.

I think most do - right from those who came on various sailing ships (though they weren't called 'refugees' then), to the hundreds of thousands who came post-1945, to the Viets and Cambodians. Sure, some don't, but you're unfairly tarring an innocent majority.

3.
It seems to be only a small percentage of people fleeing thier countries of origin. The masses must seem to think it's still OK to stay. Those fleeing must have done something for the government or military to want them so bad.

"The masses" might not have the wherewithall to be able to fund an escape, or perhaps the courage to risk life & limb on a perilous journey. Or, maybe they are members of the "right" ethnic or linguistic group in their country and therefore feel no need to leave.

On the other hand, "those fleeing" may have simply wanted to express their opinion; maybe vote for their government :eek:; or perhaps their crime / thing they "must have done" was to have been born with the wrong skin / surname / religion.

Perhaps next time you get a cappuccino from that long-established Italian cafe, or go to the local green-grocer run by Con or Costas, or a Viet take-away that's been there for 20 years, you might like to take a moment and ask what motivated the proprietor to up-sticks and come to God's own country all those years ago.

"Post hoc, ergo propter hoc" doesn't really work.

whatever6719

22nd Feb 2012, 03:04

Well said!!

greenslopes

22nd Feb 2012, 03:27

Good reply taildragger.

QF94

22nd Feb 2012, 04:06

Taildragger,

As I mentioned earlier. NO CRIME is acceptable, and that all breeds and races have their fair share.

What I am also saying and being branded as a redneck racist for it, is that we can't keep taking people from another country that have no identification on them, apart from the thousands of dollars they bring with them to get here, and then expect to put them in the community and hope to Christ they assimilate.

Let's go back a few years to the ugliest day in Australia's recent history. I think we all remember Cronulla. The day the flag wearing, alcohol filled goons went crazy and rioted. Police were in there full swing against them and hammering anyone wearing a flag. The very next night, in Lakemba, when the "allah" chanting mob were making their own noise about revenge and then let loose in Woolooware and the eastern suburbs smashing cars and beating innocent "Aussies" to a pulp because they were Aussies, where were the police and bleeding hearts then?

Enough is enough. Let's control what's in our midst now. Not bringing more in hoping they'll abide and assimilate.

Let's look at "race specific" areas of Sydney. They do exist and you're fooling yourself if you think they don't.

Cabramatta - Vietnamese/Laotian - through the 80's and 90's was the drug capital and murder capital of Australia. Even the first political assassination of an Australian politician took place there. Mr John Newman (Phong Ngo accused of murder). Not like that before them.

Bankstown/Lakemba/Belmore - Arabic/Islanders - Drugs, arms dealings shootings. Not like that before them.

The above two examples are just the tip of the iceberg, and this is just in Sydney.

Am I racist? Not at all.
Am I of Anglo descent? Nope!
Am I Australian born? Yep!
Am I nationalist? You bet!
Do I want to protect the way of life I grew up with? You bet!
Do I want my kids to grow up with that same type of life? You bet!
Do I want to live in a safe environment where there is no threat to me or my family walking down the street? You bet!
Do I want to know that illegals are processed and cleared of any past crimes before being released into my community? You bet!
Are all immigrants bad? Not at all.
Are all immigrants good? Not at all.
Should all immigrants be given free passage to Australia without identification and due process and not have to follow our laws? Not at all.

You can think of me as a redneck, right wing nut, but when when one of these shows comes to a town near you and you see up close and personal what "refugees" are capable of, you may change your view.