QRA, Battle Flight, RAF Gutersloh and RAF Wildenrath and More

[PhantomFan]

I am an aviation writer trying to find stories from the era when the RAF operated Battle Flight from RAF Wildenrath.

It is an era which fascinates me, a period when this section in Germany was a virtual air combat arena where RAF F-4 Phantoms performed DACT with F-104's, Harriers, Jaguars, Phantoms from the USAFE and the Lutwaffe, in addition to providing QRA. I am also interested in the earlier years when RAF Lightnings did the same training and QRA roles.

I would love to hear first hand stories about this period from any individuals involved in this period. - I am interested in setting up a separate website where photographs and stories can be exchanged. If a sufficient number of stories can be obtained, I would like to write an entire book, containing many first-person narratives, from this historic period. Thanks very much!

[RAFEngO74to09]

I was the Junior Engineering Officer on one of the Phantom squadrons at Wildenrath soon after it formed in and was therefore responsible for the efficiency of arrangements on the ground to support the high readiness state held by Battle Flight. If you are interested in the groundcrew aspects at all, feel free to PM me with your contact details.

Although more capable aircraft have come along since, the Phantom FGR2 was a great aircraft in its time and, and with very well-rehearsed aircrew and groundcrew, was routinely airborne quicker than can be managed today with "fly-by-wire" jets.

Little things like careful positioning of aircrew helmets, life saving jackets and document bags all helped trim several seconds off here and there.

Compare this (92 Sqn in 1989) - in almost "real-time" with only one significant groundcrew action omitted from the filming:

92 Sqn Phantom Scramble.wmv - YouTube

with this (recreation of USAF F-15 Zulu Alert launch from Bitburg in 1992)

Bitburg (SSgt "Maddog" Russell) F-15 Launch - YouTube

Oh dear - I know which team gets my vote for highly co-ordinated aircrew / groundcrew actions and getting the most out of the kit they have been provided with !

Good luck with your project !

[newt]

And if they are really lucky.......they get to shoot down a friendly aircraft from a nearby base!!!:D

[30mRad]

That's quite a comedy chock moment for the Bitburg team, or so it seems to me!

Does anyone know where Deepfat is now? Met him first on 56 in '93.

[noprobs]

Deepfat was teaching baby navs on the Tutor phase at Cranwell until that came to an end.

[maxburner]

Newt, that incident had nothing to do with Battle Flight / QRA.

[Brain Potter]

Comedy moments are not exclusive to the Spams....

Typhoon fighter jet scrambled at RAF Coningsby, Lincolnshire - YouTube

[RAFEngO74to09]

Newt,

Here is the Miliitary Aircraft Accident Summary relating to the non-Battle Flight shooting down of a Jaguar on 25 May 82.

In addition to the aircrew aspects, contributing factors were reliance on pulling a circuit breaker in the rear cockpit as an electrical isolation safety device and the likelihood that, having been pulled and reset so often, contact was made even after the circuit breaker appeared pulled. Also, the groundcrew ran out of bodge tape to secure the Master Arm Switch in the Safe position - and someone else's "ship was spoilt for a ha'porth of tar" !

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/E2670515-230E-4854-B43E-B0E9019D882C/0/maas82_10_jaguar_gr1_xx963_25may82.pdf

A bit of banter from the time: 92 Sqn - RAF squadron with the highest number of kills in WWII (317) and since !

[Courtney Mil]

In my opinion, that the crew of XV422 took the fall for a series of command failures. It could, actually, have been much worse for them than it turned out. Despite any reservations anyone may have about the events of 25 May 1982, they were both fine aircrew caught up in a bloody awful mess.

(EDIT) Sorry, can't resist an addition. A kill's a kill.

[Mach Two]

Quite agree, CM. Good fellas, both of them.

Is this limited to RAFG tales? There is and was a thing called UK QRA(I) too.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Mach Two,

Yes, there is and was QRA(I) in the UK but not held continually at the same high readiness state 24/7/365 as was required for RAF Wildenrath Battle Flight and USAF Zulu Alert. This added a whole new dimension in terms of the degree of preparations, choreography and rehearsals required to ensure that take-off times were achieved from "cold" (without pre-warning).

Just a bit of banter - of course everyone did (and still is doing) their bit regardless of location, but the crews in RAFG didn't have time for a quick trip to the "facilities".

[RAFEngO74to09]

Here's another clip - interesting use of cartidge start to save waiting to run up a ground air start trolley and engines running before the back doors of the alert barn have opened - I wonder if they had any hot gas recirculation problems with the engines.

F-4E Phantom Air Defense Scramble - YouTube

[Courtney Mil]

Neither did Southern or Northern Q in the UK, RAFEng074to09. I acknowledge the difference between RS5 and RS10. Don't denigrate the operation.

Good video there. I don't recall engine start ever being the limfac on Q F4 Q scrambles.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Another video of a USAF F-15 Zulu Alert launch - this time from a documentary in the early 1980s - much more businesslike than the earlier post from 1992.

Bitburg Air Base F-15 Zulu Alert Take-Off - YouTube

[PhantomFan]

Thanks for all the great videos and stories.

I would not limit the QRA stories to RAF Germany - I would also love to hear stories about the UK Northern and Southern QRA.

Please PM me if you wish to get more details about the project.

[RAFEngO74to09]

Clearly a staged event, but nevertheless some nostalgic views of the Battle Flight accommodation and surrounding area. Also, I thought some might like a reminder of the stunning blue aircraft paint schemes from the final display season or might recognise themselves or others they know.

Last Phantom Battle Flight at RAF Wildenrath (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6841588863429696505)#

What a great base RAF Wildenrath was - such a shame to see the condition it is in now.

[Bubblewindow]

interesting use of cartidge start

100% Oxy was used because of the toxic fumes, meanwhile the groundcrew pass out standing in the cloud of fumes :yuk:

:D BW

[Scruffy Fanny]

3 years of Battle Flight and about 3 months of my life sat in a concrete box !!- Funny stories well having done Battle Flight at Wrath and Gut i did get airborne in my PJs once - Hooter went at 4 am fast asleep so lept in the cockpit- Boots were already in and strapped in and went - seems a bit silly now!- Also the hooter once went at Gut so we lept in started up could hear the scramble message but got airborne only to find it was just a door check!- What else did i cock up on !! Not me but one back seater came off battle flight put his flying suit in the washer and managed to destroy a page of secret codes - not a clever idea- I'll save the Battle Flight Terrapin story for later !!!

[Lima Juliet]

Thanks for posting the vid - funny to see Deepfat and Mids looking so young! :eek:

[spookcxi]

Hi

I always thought the above shoot down was a result of tired crews coming off battle flight and flying without the master arm being taped down safe, resulting in one tired F4 crew, I wont say who getting into position behind the Jag and loosing off one sidewinder with inevitable result.

Oh well!! Thankfully everyone came out OK.

Spook

[spookcxi]

Hi
Having been a part of hundreds of scrambles from QRA at Leuchars over the years 1975-82 I was interested to see the F4 in question being crewed in without the aid of ground crew! Very clever...I wonder how the crew got in and how the rear ladder was pulled down and who helped with straps, did up panels, took noddy caps off, pulled chocks, marshaled out, put out starter fires.

Every scramble video I have ever seen concerning RAF F4's always show this mysterious absence........it was the same for all ground activities such as servicing, line work, rectification......mayhap it was those mysterious pixies that came in the night to do it all magically

Nice stumble up the steps by the Nav!!

Tchuss

[spookcxi]

Hi

Just thought I would throw my two pennyworth in. I was on 111(F) from 1974-82 at Coningsby and then Leuchars where we took post on QRA with 43. I take issue with your statement that UK QRA was at a less status than RAFG. Total hog!!

There was never time to visit the loo if the hooter went and I have been party to scrambles right through the day and night and most were 'hot' and at all times we reacted with the same professional attitude as expected on the finest squadron. We met every tasking through winter arctic snows, horizontal rain/sleet and always gave 100% to the requirement as ground engineers.

Every single scramble was met with full tasking by we engineers and our support to the aircrew effort was total.

I balk at the suggestion that RAFG was somehow of more import that northern QRA, were we not all in the same RAF? were we not all doing the same thing in protecting sovereign airspace?

Spook

[Geehovah]

QRA was QRA. Northern Q, Southern Q, Battle Flight and The Falklands. All were important but all were different. Ssafe to say that every single person in the loop was important from aircrew to groundcrew to the photog who processed the pics to the ops clerk who sent the admisrep. Not glamorous nowadays but vital at the time.

[1.3VStall]

I'm amazed that no-one has yet picked up on the Battle Flight scramble times in RAFG. The Lightning was normally airborne well under 5 minutes after the call, while that American triumph of thrust over aerodynamics was sitting at Wildenwrath waiting for the INAS to align for nearer ten minutes - and that was ten minutes flying time west of the IGB!

[NutLoose]

Used to do QRA at Bruggen, but we never launched a thing, the food was good though..... That Tiffie scramble....wasn't that lucky there just happened to be a full crew and pilot loitering at the side of the taxiway when the alert went off...

Still better than jumping out of bed and into your boots in the middle of the night on a practice scramble to find some git has emptied a can of swarfega into them.. Then running out to the HAS squelching as you go, leaving a slimy green trail behind you.

[Geehovah]

Battle Flight at Wildenrath was RS05. Every F4 scramble was under 5 minutes. The fact that the base was 20 mins flying time west was politics (the Harrier GR1 needed to be closer to the FEBA) and nothing to do with the AD crews. The INAS took 90 seconds to align. The record was just over 3 minutes from asleep to wheels in the well - at 4AM after a TACEVAL hooter. Can't say I enjoyed sleeping in a G suit though.

[fantom]

Used to do QRA at Bruggen

Yes, go to bed with your g-suit on because you KNEW to hooter was going to go off @ about 03.00.

[chopper2004]

I take it there was no pole for our guys to slide down as soon as the klaxon went off :) whether it be at Wildenrath, Conningsby, Leuchars or Leeming, as with the USAF crews at Bitburg or any other QRA stateside.

I saw a photo in a classic photo book on the F-4 and the same in Cold War Interceptors (Osprey Motorbooks colour pub 1989) of a Minnesota Phantom at the alert barns at Ramstein during the 80s taking charge of alert as the Ramstein guys were transitioing from The F-4E to the F-16. Didn't know Ramstein had ZUlu barns as well.

Cheers

[NutLoose]

Some of our pilots would have gone down it head first, they were not exactly the sharpest cookies in the barrel.

Seriously though, the hard and soft were across the taxy way from the HAS's

[Ali Barber]

After watching 24 hr tv/vids at Binbrook one Sunday afternoon with brain well and truely engaged in neutral, suddenly manned up because we heard the Station hooter. Had to shout at groundcrew to man up on the way as they hadn't responded. Eventually, after no response from Neatishead on telebrief, figured out it was a tv programme about the Thames Flood Barrier and their siren sounded remarkably like our stn hooter!

Also got very pissed off when we were not scrambled for the civvie at Flight Level Nose Bleed with everybody dead on board and an F-4 was taken off PIs instead and used all it's gas to get alongside, so nobody plotted the crash site. Only found about it from the News at 10 that night and Neat's excuse was "we didn't want to bother you".

Apart from that, my 3 live scrambles were well worth the 7 years in the shed at Binbrook and ended up diverting to Leuchars off one on a single engine, and Lossie on another which was Blue/Black until just before I got there.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

1000+ hours in the shed and not one live launch.

I reckon the Rooskies were scared of me*

That's real deterrence!

I can, of course, recite the entire script of Life of Brian and tell you how many miles it is to Chicago when it's dark and you're wearing sunglasses.

We also served......



* and the Argies, for that matter

[NutLoose]

I find this rather ironic, you join the RAF as a plod, you get posted to Bruggen as your first tour to do a totally none plodish job, sitting in a box staring at a fence, 20+ years later you revisit your old Bruggen haunt blag your way onto the station and what do you do...

http://www.rafpa.com/Bike%20trip%2006%20%2810%29.JPG



Bike trip to Bruggen (http://www.rafpa.com/biketrip.html)

[diginagain]

Chap clearly has fond memories of his Finest Hour.

[NutLoose]

Yup, but I used to feel for them, they were suckered into the police with tales of daring do chasing bad guys, investigating cases, to find themselves sitting in one of those boxes for 3 years watching 20 foot of fence line. The only time they got anything to do was when a rabbit strayed into the sterile and set off a motion sensor, or when we used to stand behind the bank on 20 sqn near HAS 49? And throw stones at the sensors :E

Must admit I would like to have a look round the place myself once more before I shuffle off.

[Krystal n chips]

" to find themselves sitting in one of those boxes for 3 years watching 20 foot of fence line"

Be fair here, they did get rotated between boxes...and the Q gate guard...

As for Bruggen QRA, given that we never launched in anger, other than once / twice a year by "prior arrangement" I seem to recall and even then with the mighty Jag only having internal fuel and no tanks fitted, the benefit of being there was the remarkably sensible....for the RAF....start and finish time of 10.00hrs...thus allowing one to "socialise" the evening before....and recover thereafter.

[wiggy]

1000+ hours in the shed and not one live launch.


Fox3, Know what you mean.

Several live launches from Southern Q, but for reasons various but mostly technical never a rooskie at the end of it....the piece de resistance being the night 6 1/2 hour epic that went wrong somewhere S E of Iceland, several hours in, when the gadget bent :sad: as we were being vectored onto the trade, and ended up with a diversion to Leuchars after having to go around from minimums at Watashame......that was a long night......:ooh:

FWIW did "get" a Rooskie eventually - off Cyprus during an APC....

[Off Hot]

Looked like the F-15 in the second of the Zulu launch vids had a pop-surge at rotate?!

[Juliet Papa Bravo]

There we were, 19(F) Sqn, Wildenrath Battle Flight 1977 sitting in the portacabins just to the side of the HAS. Only just worked up after moving over from 2 Sqn at Laarbruch and taking over from the Lightnings at Gutersloh there had as yet been no actual scrambles - we were ready though.
BLAAAAAAAAAAAHHHH went a hooter WAAAAAAAAAHH went the lot of us legging it out on to the pan and to the HAS, here we go! Er, no we don't. The water boiler had a buzzer that went off when the water boiled and someone was making a cup of tea. Settle down chaps, NATO standard all round?

[NutLoose]

Ahh Bruggen HAS's, they were worried about security of the aircraft and weapons in them, so fitted some all singing all dancing armoured padlocks on the doors to replace the ones we had.......... Then they had a Fire alarm, the boys from Trumpton turfed up, out came the cutters to gain access... Man rapidly dispatched to Guardroom to get keys after they realised they were so good they couldn't cut them off, the old locks made a miraculous reappearance.

[spookcxi]

Northern QRA. Sometime in the past. 111(F) Squadron F4's. So there we were all sprinting about whilst the hooter sounds its banshee siren and my man B has come hurtling out of the shower wearing just his large and very grubby towel which just encircles his ample waist. Keen see.

I am down stairs making sure the right hand donk is whirling up to speed but there is something wrong. I can see the 'Nav is not happy about something and then I see what it is and what an 'it' it truly is.

My man B was a large man in all respects and under his towel he is of course 'sans culottes' and my wouldn't his mummy be proud of him, and all this poor 'Nav can see is this great hairy apparition flopping about whilst the straps are passed and pin pulled. The next 6 hours are a living hell for the poor man as all he can see in the scope is that nightmare of skin, curly hair and veins.

However on landing and with lashings of ginger beer, jelly and copious counselling he recovers well enough but all porn and the man himself are kept out of sight for the next 18 hours.

Ah we that must serve!

Spook

[sim2401]

:hmm::hmm: After a spectacular Hypnotist show in Wildenraths finest NAAFI in 1990,the next day we find ourselves relaxing in the concrete shed of Battleflight for the next 24 hours.Our man B was relaxing on his bed when yipyahoo the klaxon sounds.Unbeknown to us he had "HOW TO GIVE UP SMOKEING" hypnotist tape on in his walkman which he had purchased the night before. Yep he was totally under the spell of the myserious powers of Hypnotism. Not even the sound of that dreaded Klaxon could bring him to(dont think Paul Mckenna would have either).

So there we were the aircrew eager to get airbourne and us groundcrew minus a Man B hopeing they wouldnt notice.

Thankfully 19(f) got up up and away under five minutes....more than Man B did ,he eventually came around when his tape finished and was on the welcomeing comittee for the aircraft and an earbashing from the aircrew..

[sim2401]

nice to see a rodney sticking up for the hard working and often forgotten pond life who were working long hours through the night...19(F) armourer 1990 shame to see such a wonderfull airbase go to waste:hmm:

[LesleyP]

My husband had 5 yrs experience on Lightnings as an Armourer, involving QRA/Battle Flight at RAF Leuchars, as a member of 23(F) Sqn operating Mk 6s and with 19(F) Sqn at RAF Guetersloh operating Mk2As. Also with the Harrier Force at RAF Guetersloh operating from holes in the forest. He'd be happy to chat to you about this,

[ex-fast-jets]

Germany was a virtual air combat arena where RAF F-4 Phantoms performed DACT with F-104's, Harriers, Jaguars, Phantoms from the USAFE and the Lutwaffe

Never mind all this Q rubbish!!

The place to be was the Peheim mast on a Friday lunchtime!!

Made Red Flag look like a kindergarten!!

Of course, never more than the authorised 1x90 and a 1x90 reversal for unbriefed DACT!!:}

[Scruffy Fanny]

My time on the F4 in the early 80s the ground crew were bloody amazing - how they always managed to keep the jets flying amazed me - I rember a poor guy falling off the stabilator at 5am after a 12 hour shift he was so tired. Sadly it was an era of Rank and Calling people Sir but my respect goes to you guys

[sim2401]

Nice to know someone appreciated our efforts ....thank you sir ..rank was an issue. I remember a rollicking off a sqn ldr nav out in Cyprus on Op Granby when it took me 9 mins to make safe The Mighty F4 on landing.4 sidewinders,4 sparrows,1 Suu gun and chaff and flare( I thought that was fast). Ah well how I miss the rollickings,good old days indeed....Nice to know someone appreciated our efforts........I thoroughly enjoyed my time on the phantoms and was fortunate to get a back seat...it sure beat my trip in an F3...