Decca 424 Airfield Radar

[Mooncrest]

The previous thread from some years ago is closed so apologies for this...

Is anybody out there still using one of these ? Doubtful, I know, given the vintage technology. I ask because I've recently seen a picture of Leeds Bradford Airport circa 1965 and I can just make out the distinctive shape of a 424 radar head lurking behind a BKS HS748 (it is that old) ! It intrigued me because I thought LBA's first radar was a Plessey ACR430. Obviously not.
We now have a Watchman and that's well over twenty years old itself.

Speaking of the Watchman, is this radar still in use at Manchester (or any other NATS airports for that matter) ? It's difficult to tell from the car park roof if I'm looking at a Watchman or a Raytheon thingummyjig.

Thankyou all :ok: .

[spekesoftly]

Is anybody out there still using one of these ? Doubtful, I know ....Hawarden might have been one of the last UK airfields to use the 424?

Liverpool's 424 was replaced in about 1982 with an ACR430. (Subsequently replaced by an S511 and now ASR10)

"Tilt Up" ;)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I believe some of my ex-colleagues are still using one at Lasham....??

[Buster the Bear]

LL Dir, I think that you are correct?

[MNT]

Manchester is still using a Watchman but should be replaced in about 12 months time, only NATS site left not sure about anybody else.

[Tigersaw]

Southampton still using a Watchman, and plenty of life left in it

[chevvron]

424 still in use at Lasham, the 430 being a development of it using a cosecant squared reflector rather than the original pencil beam which in turn (so I'm told) was originally designed as a marine radar.
Try 'Talkdownman' for more details.

[Sir George Cayley]

Will Lasham's be affected by the OFCOM frequency band sell off? Something about mods needed to carry on.

SGC

[Talkdownman]

Will Lasham's be affected by the OFCOM frequency band sell off? Something about mods needed to carry on
News to me. It's still turning, and still burning...as long as there is a good supply of Ford Anglia fan-belts...

was originally designed as a marine radar
She's off an early fifties frigate. Spares available at the Science Museum apparently...theirs is younger...there's only about three blokes remaining who know how to fix it...there's certainly only three blokes remaining who know how to use it....

[tweentown]

The 424 that was used at EMA is on display in the aeropark museum there - visible in google maps satellite view.

[Talkdownman]

Ah, more spares.....

[Mooncrest]

Good to see the old 424 is still hanging on by a thread, but I confess I didn't know Lasham even used radar. But that's another story...

Always to encouraging to know that old(er) ATC equipment is still being used, even in the ATC powerhouse that is the UK. It makes me wonder how much longer our (EGNM) Watchman will be in use before it has to make way for a more modern system. I suppose as long as it does the job and spares are available and economical. The old PO lever key switch panels and Racal headsets gave way some years ago to fancy touchscreens and flimsy Plantronics stuff.

I gather the 424 was something of an acquired taste in terms of usage and maintenance :\.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I still reckon the Heathrow ACRVI was better than all the modern digitised stuff.... but then I'm grossly old-fashioned!

Wonder what happened to that ancient clockwork Echo arrangement at EGMC?

[welkyboy]

You mean the EKCO ARAA. Spent a lot of time under the curtain talking Carvairs etc . Down to half mile on 24/06 very accurate though care was needed in setting it up after a runway change!!

[Talkdownman]

We had an ARAA at Elstree mid sixties. Never saw it working. Rain came through the necessary hole in the roof...
There was also one at Lasham early seventies. Might have been Sahfend's reject. I understand the trick at Sahfend was to take down the controller's trousers mid-SRA...

[chevvron]

The Lasham 'Eckoscope' was the original sarfend one. A guy called Arthur Beaton was the controller there originally (c'74 - 78), however I heard a rumour he wasn't licenced. After him, Des Middleton took on the task and that's when the 424 replaced the ARAA

[Helen49]

The first radar installation at Leeds Bradford Airport was an Ecko ARAA. It was replaced by the Decca 424 [originally designed and used as a marine radar] c1963/64.

The 424 [later became Plessey 424] was a splendid piece of engineering but with only a 3cm wavelength worked superbly as a weather radar not quite as superb for seeing aircraft during heavy weather! The 424 with its various devices for removing weather clutter and a tilting aerial [the ATCO needed two pairs of hands at times!] had a maximum range of 25 miles and also had a one mile range setting enabling it to see airfield movement activities although, of course, not approved for that purpose.

The Plessey 430 arrived at Leeds Bradford early to mid 70s. This provided better vertical coverage [as opposed to the single narrow beam of tthe 424] but again being 3cm wavelength was often badly affected by weather clutter. Later modifications to the 430 made significant improvement but not until the arrival of the Plessey Watchman was the weather clutter problem resolved for LBA.

With the LBA standard weather [cloudbase below the top of Murgatroyd's chimney, itself later replaced by a fish and chip restaurant!], SRAs to half a mile were the most important approach aid. SRAs were 'the norm' to Rwy 15/33 and 10/28. Of course the advent of the Watchman meant that LBA no longer had the half mile talkdown capability but did, by that time, have an ILS on both ends of the main runway. SRAs to half a mile had continued to be available on Rwy 28 until the Watchman arrived.

Those were the days!

H49

[chevvron]

The Watchman installed at Farnborough was MOD owned hence it had permanent touchdown markers in the form of MTI markers ie battery driven devices which 'broke through' the MTI, so we could (if approved) have done 1/2 mile SRA's, but we also had a CR62 (3cm precision approach radar) so this wasn't necessary as you could do 1/2 mile 'no glidepath' talkdowns on the CR62 instead.

[Talkdownman]

The 424 [later became Plessey 424] was a splendid piece of engineering but with only a 3cm wavelength worked superbly as a weather radar not quite as superb for seeing aircraft during heavy weather! The 424 with its various devices for removing weather clutter and a tilting aerial [the ATCO needed two pairs of hands at times!] had a maximum range of 25 miles and also had a one mile range setting enabling it to see airfield movement activities although, of course, not approved for that purpose.

Still is, still does, still do, still has, still isn't. And all with classic tangential fade...
If it hadn't been for John Townsend I would never have understood such a radar...

[Loki]

You're all talking nonsense.....Marconi 264 for me (so good, we had 2 of them at EGPF)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I remember doing SRAs on a 264 - targets as big as half-crowns!

[Talkdownman]

I remember doing SRAs on a 264 - targets as big as half-crowns!
HD, you were paid half-a-crown per SRA then...

You're all talking nonsense.....
We are ATCOs...

Marconi 264 for me (so good, we had 2 of them at EGPF)
We had three at Heathrow, so ner. The East, the West and the 'T'...er...didn't we...?

I'll have another glass of Alzheimer's, please, just a little more tonic this time...

[Mooncrest]

Helen,

I've not heard of the Ecko ARAA before and I can't find any info on the web. Was it a widely used machine ?

[chevvron]

Yer shoulda seen the blip size on the 232; bigger than the 264 and it wasn't approved for SRA's!
Now the T82 at Lindholme had superb blip size.....................

[windowjob]

As did the type 80 at Sopley, but when that went off for mx the 264 blip was wider than the Airway at range!
Nearly as good as the noddy height finders which gave you a height +/- 5,000ft.

Part of the famil for the T80 was to go into the cabin that went round with the head, without turning it off, to be shown "stuff" - can't imaging H&S allowing that nowadays.
"Just mind your step as you get out"

[Tchocky]

decco type | decca type | airfield radar | 1953 | 1232 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1953/1953%20-%201232.html)

[Lon More]

Still got mine, somewhere in the attic.

http://www.vectis.co.uk/AuctionImages/94/1160_l.jpg

[Talkdownman]

I've not heard of the Ecko ARAA before and I can't find any info on the web.

It's Ekco....E. K. Cole.

Here's a link about the ARAA (http://www.ekco-electronics.co.uk/ARAA/ARAA.htm) with a video showing its use (http://www.ekco-electronics.co.uk/videos/airfield.wmv), and some stuff about E. K. Cole (http://www.thesoutheastecho.co.uk/EKCO.htm)

[Eric T Cartman]

Reckon the Gailes Types 7 & 14 took the prize for blip size - could have featured in WW2 movies, no problem ! :)

[octavian]

Type 82. Now there is a quality radar. Anyone for ACR7? OOSA.

[cleo]

Lon

I have just uncovered those very items in the late Mr C's collection - along with a great deal of other 'stuff'
Lotsa Dinky things in there too.

[Sir George Cayley]

Didn't E K Cole run a Percival Prentice?

SGC

[welkyboy]

They operated two Ansons firstly G-ALIH and later G-AGPG. They were used for radar calibration and had a radar fitted in the nose. The pilot was a dour Scotsman John Meredith.

[chevvron]

Er Octavian; isn't 'ACR7' the RAF way of spelling of '424'?

[Talkdownman]

G-AGPG. They were used for radar calibration and had a radar fitted in the nose. The pilot was a dour Scotsman John Meredith.
Both are in the film (http://www.ekco-electronics.co.uk/videos/airfield.wmv)...

[Spitoon]

the film.....wonderful!

[radarman]

Come on NATS, get a proper dress code for your staff: Double-breasted suit, tie, pencil moustache, National Health glasses, briar pipe and a bucket-load of Brylcreem. Controllers were MEN in those days! (Well, apart from the girl with the mike on steroids).

[Talkdownman]

Just love all the civil titles: "Pilot Meredith", "Chief Controller Cusworth".
Just imagine: "Assistant Sector Controller Smith please be so kind as to coordinate Viking George Able How Oboe Uncle with Birdlip sub-centre at Flight Level Four Zero"..." Certainly Crew Chief Cholmondly-Warner, I shall delegate the task to Woman-Sector Assistant Daphne whilst Cleaner Doris empties my ashtray and I sharpen my HMSO pencil"

[25 DME FIX]

Ah the 424, those were the days, 22 years old, all the hosties that I could handle (or could handle me), 52 1/2 mile SRAs in a 13 hour "day radar" duty, trying to keep the thing in tune to avoid loosing radar contact, variable polarisation to try and beat the weather, not forgetting the aerial tilt, and down the pub for a quick lunch, who ever invented SRATCOH and spoilt it all?

[Gordon Dennison]

I was responsible for installing the LBA ACR430, which replaced the 424.
The 424 was sold to Brough, purchase negotiated between the then LBA Airport Commandant, Geoffrey Sellers and Derek Whithead of Brough. Derek used to fly across in a non-radio Blackburn B2 tail-dragger. After landing on the runway, he would get out, put his arm round the tail and walk across to the apron pulling the aircraft ! Derek was a great character, who had undertaken a vast amount of military fast jet test flying. He later joined CAA as an Aerodrome Inspector based at the then CAA HQ at Kingsway London.

When the ACR 430 was purchased, I was checked out by Plessey and then rated by CAA. I was then responsible for checking out the remaining ATCOs before the CAA Inspector came across to do their ratings.

Although the ACR 430 had several technical advantages over the 424, the latter produced a much sharper return and the narrow beam width enabled proficient operators to ( roughly ) monitor aircraft height. The 424 was much preferred for superior precision during radar talk-downs. There was, of course, no ILS at LBA at the time.

The 424 was not the first aerodrame radar at LBA. It was preceded by one that I cannot unfortunately remember the name of. It was a very imprecise piece of equipment, but was used for talk-downs. In those days, Air Traffic Control was located in a sort of diy glasshouse on top of the old ex-RAF Officers Mess. The radar was mounted on the roof with a sort of periscope suspended from the ceiling in the centre of the visual control room. Luckily, I did not need to validate on the equipment as it was withdrawn by CAA.

[Talkdownman]

The 424 was not the first aerodrame radar at LBA. It was preceded by one that I cannot unfortunately remember the name of. It was a very imprecise piece of equipment, but was used for talk-downs. In those days, Air Traffic Control was located in a sort of diy glasshouse on top of the old ex-RAF Officers Mess. The radar was mounted on the roof with a sort of periscope suspended from the ceiling in the centre of the visual control room. Luckily, I did not need to validate on the equipment as it was withdrawn by CAA.

The airports known to have installed ARAA are: Southend, Swansea, Leeds/Bradford, and Elstree.

Link repeated here (http://www.ekco-electronics.co.uk/ARAA/ARAA.htm) (to satisfy the ten character posting requirement!). Perhaps the 'sort of periscope' in the film (http://www.ekco-electronics.co.uk/videos/airfield.wmv) might jog Gordon's memory...

[Eric T Cartman]

A great film ! Just for a moment I thought the commentator was Harold Wilson, doing a spot of moonlighting from his 1963 Labour Party Conference speech about the white heat of technology etc. :8

[Mooncrest]

Hello Gordon. Good to hear from an ex LBA Managing Director. I seem to recall reading about your ATC heritage in one of my books and your personal recollections on this site make interesting reading.

I only recently found out about the 424 when I saw it behind a BKS748 in an old LBA pic. Considering I thought the ACR430 was LBA's first radar I was equally surprised to find that the 424 was itself preceded by the EKCO ARAA. Your description of it mounted on the old rudimentary control tower sounds about right. I think you can make it out on some of the old black and white pictures from that era. Unfortunately I don't have the means to put them on here.

Do you remember roughly when the 424 was superseded by the 430 ? I'm now aged 41 and can remember back to around 1973 and the sight of the 430 whirling round in "talkdown" mode is fixed firmly in my mind !

Nice to see plenty of (mainly) fond recollections of old radar equipment from everybody, not just the Decca and Plessey machines but Marconi as well.
And those Corgi models of the 424 are the last word in cool. I must keep an eye on ebay.

[chevvron]

I may be wrong but I don't think the 430 was made until after 1973. I can remember using one at Larkhill (Salisbury Plain Range Control) in 1975 and it was brand new, one of the first.

[spekesoftly]

According to This Link (http://www.norwichairport.co.uk/content.asp?pid=37)Norwich Airport installed an ACR430 in 1970:-

In 1970 the Customs authorities granted approval for the export and import of all types of freight. Later that year a Plessey ACR 430 radar system was installed.

[Data Dad]

Some interesting history here (http://www.woottonbridgeiow.org.uk/decca-legacy/chapter6.php#6.2)

And a sales (?) brochure for the 430 here (http://www.scribd.com/doc/40249278/ACR-430-Radar)

Table 1 in the 430 document would have been good fodder for JT to expound at the College :)

I have never personally worked with either a 424 or a 430 but remember watching Hurn Approach working with their 430 and flying several half-milers to 17 (also Hurn) whilst doing my instrument flying intro in a 152 - in fact it was under the hood right down to the flare as my Instructor carried on the patter once the SRA was terminated.

DD

[25 DME FIX]

The son of 430 lives on at Gloucestershire (aka Staverton), does just about everything that the old 430 couldn't, including the ability to have SSR overlayed.


Still a 3CM radar, but light years ahead of its 424 grandad.

[2 sheds]

Norwich certainly did have the first operational ACR430 - and a dire piece of kit it was too. To say the least, it was extremely hard work for something that was marketed as a pukka surveillance radar (i.e. not just for one-at-a-time SRAs as was the 424). Word obviously had not got around by 1979 as Bournemouth Airport then bought one to replace the ACRVI that the then-CAA took with them at the end of their ATC contract. Fortunately, the excellent IAL engineers were able to improve it such that it did sterling service throughout the 1980s.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7068/6871460689_59d5582817_m.jpg http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2342/2315459294_10794ebf39_m.jpg

2 s

[matspart3]

One of our guys will be validating on the 430 today, complete with a half miler. It's now a 'MARIS 900' with solid state transceivers and running on a Windows PC display. We had a fault last week, but a replaced modulator board and some tweaking to the triggering, courtesy of Dr Ken Collier of MARIS, has resolved that. Whilst putting it back into service, we checked some targets with Brize and could see traffic in the airway, 20 miles south at F220!

Aren't Lasham going to upgrade the 424 to a 430/Maris? I gave them our old Kelvin Hughes tubes because I couldn't bear to put them in the skip!

[Talkdownman]

Aren't Lasham going to upgrade the 424 to a 430/Maris? I gave them our old Kelvin Hughes tubes because I couldn't bear to put them in the skip!
Awaiting developments...

[Spitoon]

running on a Windows PC displayWindows!!!

[Mooncrest]

Fascinating to read about the history of the Decca and Plessey radars and the trials and tribulations of those people who used to work with them (or perhaps still do !)

The same phrase keeps recurring regarding the 424, i.e. "pencil beam" which I surmise means great for talkdowns (practice permitting) but not much use for general surveillance. I don't know how well the LBA 424 performed but I gather the 430 was a reasonable performer for its day, following rewiring and mods by the local Tels team. Still never found out where it ended up post- LBA though but at least the 424 made it to Brough, at least.

By the way, did Blackpool ever use a 424 ? Last time I was there (1997) I remember seeing the radar head and I vaguely recall it resembling a 424. However I also recall one of the controllers saying it was a Plessey machine so I'm not sure. It used green monochrome displays though.

Who, or what, are these MARIS folks ? Do they specialise in breathing new life into old technology ?_

[matspart3]

Maris have developed a variety of mods and upgrades for pre-loved radars, including the 430 and, more recently Marconi 511s. They provide and maintain kit all around the world, including a number of UK military weapons ranges. Ken Collier is the main man and is a genius. What he doesn't know about radar isn't worth knowing.

Our man passed today :D

[Talkdownman]

people who used to work with them (or perhaps still do !)
No 'perhaps'. Definitely..

The same phrase keeps recurring regarding the 424, i.e. "pencil beam" which I surmise means great for talkdowns (practice permitting) but not much use for general surveillance.

Interesting bit in Tchocky's link:

"if the blip is temporarily lost....the beam has but to be depressed or raised to pick it up again"
The pencil beam is very thin. Nowadays this necessitates (or should necessitate...) re-ident...
It's a horrible feeling when that blip disappears with a ULE examiner standing behind. Bit difficult to explain to him that one gets used to vectoring 'parcels of thin air'..."don't worry, it'll re-appear" is no longer acceptable!
If there are two blips in the beam they could be somewhat close...
If there are two raindrops in the beam you might as well go home...it's a great weather radar!
It's also fine in CAVOK...when the crews don't need radar...

Our man passed today
But you predicted it:

One of our guys will be validating on the 430 today

[Spitoon]

The pencil beam is very thin. Nowadays this necessitates (or should necessitate...) re-ident...
It's a horrible feeling when that blip disappears with a ULE examiner standing behind.I always found that putting a finger on the screen to help keep track of the target was a great technique. Finger much bigger than blip.

By the way, did Blackpool ever use a 424 ?Yes.

[On the beach]

I always found that putting a finger on the screen to help keep track of the target was a great technique

I used to use my third hand and a yellow china graph for that. Great for seeing what a lousy SRA you'd just done. I haven't found a use for my third hand since I retired. Any suggestions? :=

On the beach

[chevvron]

The SLA-1 (3cm PAR) needed more hands than three.
There were two tubes, one for elevation one for azimuth. On each tube you had two buttons for servos (up/down and left/right) and a two way self centring switch for gain control.
With your remaining hand you wrote down the headings with a chinagraph!

[Eric T Cartman]

@ On the Beach
These'll be familiar then :)

Chinagraphs.jpg picture by oldbloke60 - Photobucket (http://s391.photobucket.com/albums/oo354/oldbloke60/?action=view&current=Chinagraphs.jpg)

Still in daily use after 40+ years - only trouble is that I can't get yellow refills now so stuck with black !

[fisbangwollop]

ETC...is that your version of EFD? ;-)

[ZOOKER]

Stick with the Chinagraphs Eric, you know it makes sense!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Watch out Zooker.... one of BDiONU's mates will be after you!!

[ZOOKER]

I think that's already happened Bren!

[oldandbald]

My first radar validation, on the 424, was in early 1970. Despite its quirks we used it to its “maximum” . At the board I was asked how many aircraft I would control at a time, I replied “one”, the examiner just grinned! It was always suggested that our “tels guys” altered the waveguide a little!
We often operated as a twosome , as we did with the later 430 ( we were one of the first civil users of that, it came to us with no map overlay, our engineers invented one) .
One controller vectoring on the left and on the right the half mile SRA tube. In between was the control panel with tilt switch and tuners. You’ve probably guessed the unit, about a mile and a half west there was a ridge by the M1 motorway producing a very noticeable collection of PEs.
I can remember pushing the tilt down while in the left hand seat to see inbound traffic for vectoring and receiving a very bruised right hand as the controller on the right was trying to tilt up to see his blip pass the PEs at about a mile and a half on 08. Also that was where invariably there was a marked change in drift! Good memories and always a satisfaction of completing many many “ half milers” in marginal conditions JB

[2 sheds]

This is starting to sound like the Springfield Retirement Castle! Hi JB, good to see you around again. As you say...
it came to us with no map overlay which is a pretty poor way of marketing a surveillance radar. Hence, on the HH 430:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7202/6897891703_e95f0291fa_m.jpg
the airspace in reverse chinagraph on the perspex overlay.

2 s

[Gordon Dennison]

I probably have piccies somewhere that could identify the date of the LBA ACR 430 installation. My guess would be very early 70's. I was the Airport Ops Officer at the time. Plessey undertook the actual installation but underestimated the unpredictability of LBA. The radar head was destined for the centre of the airfield near to the 424 slte, but the first mobile crane that tried to transport it simply sank as soon as it left runway 28. The contractor brought in a larger crane, which managed to move only a little further before also bogging down. We then arranged for several loads of hardcore to be deposited on the track and rolled it in. The contractor brought in the largest crane available and the ACR430 eventually reached it's destination. I am certain to have piccies of this performance but have reached the stage of life where I have no idea where I put my glasses a few minutes since, let alone the location of photographs taken some 40 years ago !

Regards.

[Mooncrest]

Gordon, you'll not be surprised to hear that LBA is still a swamp in certain locations. A few years ago after a spell of torrential rain there was a river crossing the 32 threshold which had its source on Horsforth Golf Course. I don't recall anything landing that evening.

I assume the 430 was a brand new installation then. I was always under the impression that it had been purchased second-hand from Luton but I confess I don't know where I got that idea. The installation farce sounds like a Keystone Cops scenario. These days there'd be risk assessments, hard hats, hi viz, clipboards and so on in order to prevent all that nonsense, not to mention all the fun.

What made LBA choose the 430 over, say,the Marconi 264 ? I guess the 424 was proving not too satisfactory for general surveillance but ok for SRAs. Thinking about the soft ground at LBA, the 264 radar head could well have sunk altogether :sad:

[oldandbald]

We had the 430 at Luton into the mid 80s but finally the scanner and associated electronics caught fire, not sure of the exact date, and it "ceased to be". At that time the 08 ILS was being installed so it obviously felt unwanted.....

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Serious question, was the Watchman the sucess that it is made out to be......

[chevvron]

Luton didn't have a Watchman, they had (and I believe it's still there) an ex RAF AR15, which apparently won't interface with the display system at LTCC so it's still as they left it when they moved radar to Terminal Control.
Wonder what became of the AR15 which used to be mounted on the control tower at Dunsfold.

[oldandbald]

Realising early the shortcomings of the 430 Luton investigated a "proper" surveillance radar in the mid 70s. We became an early civil purchaser of the AR15. The RAF had experienced coverage problems with the AR15 which I think were down to their own siting decisions, we left our siting to Plessey.It was marketed as a superior AR1. I think it became operational about 1977 with SSR feed from Heathrow ( we had SSR before Gatwick ) I consider the whole package very good for its time, excellently maintained by our Tels staff. JB

[oldandbald]

Hi chevrron
for info I think the AR15 was purchased new from Plessey, although may have been a cancelled Middle East order. JB

[chevvron]

I stand corrected; someone told me when we were starting LARS North that the Luton AR15 couldn't be used (would have been perfect) but they thought it was ex-RAF. Couldn't have been RB could it?
I know the Dunsfold one was ex Brize, (maybe that's where I'm getting confused) There was some sort of 'scandal' about it too; apparently bits were 'missing' when the packing cases were opened at Dunsfold and they had been there when it was packed at Brize.

[vintage ATCO]

Yes, the Luton AR15 was new. I held the first (might have been the second) UK AR15 validation. Before that we had a temporary Cossor 787, scanner mounted on a truck, display in the radar room in the old control tower. I validated that too. :)

The ACR430 melted down (literary, the box of tricks below the scanner) a few months after Chernobyl. I am not sure if there was a connection. :confused:

[Level bust]

The AR15 displays were removed about a year before Approach moved to LATCC.

The scanner was only removed in December last year.

[Mooncrest]

So which airfields used the Decca 424 ? The ones I now know for definite are Leeds Bradford, Birmingham, East Midlands, Hawarden, Liverpool and Blackpool. And latterly, Lasham.

Is that a Plessey AR15 I saw at Bournemouth about eight years ago ? I always thought it was a Watchman but the head didn't seem to be the right shape.

[vintage ATCO]

Luton had a 424 in the late 60s before getting the 430. I regret never having a go on it.

[chevvron]

Numerous RAF airfields had the ACR7(424). Lindholme was one, possibly as late as 1972, Topcliffe was another; I saw one there in '71.
RAE Bedford had one too, maybe also A & AEE Boscombe Down but Farnborough didn't.

[On the beach]

Southampton had one in the eighties. Don't know when they bought it but they advertised in Flight, as you do, to buy one in 1965 along with an ILS(see small ad top left under ground equipment).

Some other interesting ads also. Anyone fancy becoming an ATCO, max salary up to £2,036, and if you have previous aircrew or ATCO experience the Min of Aviation would consider you for training up to 40 years of age. :D

I would have quite fancied replying to the ad for a co-pilot wanted for round trip to Cape Town in well equipped light aircraft.

They don't make ads like those, these days.

1965 | 1454 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1965/1965%20-%201454.html)

On the beach

[vulcanised]

Didn't the 424 from Luton go on to Southend?

[TCAS FAN]

On the beach

Southampton bought their 424 new. Spent many happy hours doing 150 exercises before taking my radar rating. Said goodbye to it in 1971 only to find it still going (albeit with new displays) when I came back to the UK in 1987.

Finally withdrawn early nineties when the ILS came into service. Nobody wanted what was left, believe that the displays went for a song to Westlands at Yeovil.

PS add Yeovil and Leavesden to the list of users.

[jh5speed]

Filton had a 424 or similar - I think its gone now. The big (264?) on the hill went in the last couple of years too. A shame - quite a landmark.

The East Midlands 424 is indeed in the Aeropark - and now even the right way up! Google Earth shows it on its side. Looks as if its been given a lick of paint too. Now, on that subject - something that's been bugging me for at least 40 years ...

In the early 70's the EMA 424 head was red. It changed colour to mustardy yellow. Why? Was it a new unit? An overhaul? a change in airfield equipment colour regulations. Or just a spruce up ...

Cheers

[ZOOKER]

Or simply faded by the blistering sunshine for which the region is renowned? :ok:
Saw it used in 'short-pulse' mode one day, similar to an ASMI. You could make out the shape of a BMA Viscount quite clearly.

[Mooncrest]

Interesting to note how in the sixties the Decca 424 was the "popular" choice for the civilian and military ATC providers. Then came the seventies selection of the 430, AR1, AR1.5 and Marconi 264. Come the eighties it was back to really just two models, i.e. The Watchman and S511. I recall Racal even having a crack at the approach radar market about 25 - 30 years ago, targeting their model at smaller regional airports but I don't believe it caught on. Nowadays I think Raytheon fairly well have the market to themselves. I hope the old bangers and museum pieces have a few years of life left in them yet though.

Still intrigued to know who bought LBA's old 430, and why ? :suspect:

[ZOOKER]

Mooncrest,
I remember the night of the 32 river. I was on TMA NE at EGCC that evening, we did grin a bit.
I also remember a D watch afternoon duty on the Mediator Suites, (i.e. prior to 1993), when, (due to fog), EGNM was the only airport 'open' in northern England.
You accepted everything we offered you. One of the ATSAs asked "where the fcuk are they parking them all?", Yeadon High-Street was the reply. 126.65 became almost a No. 1 Director frequency for Leeds. Brilliant shift!
As I groped my way to the staff car-park at 22.00, there was a P.A. announcement for "Air Malta passengers to board a bus for EGPK" for a 4.5hr journey to their aircraft. Great days!
Are you a fan of 'Steeleye Span' by any chance?

[Mooncrest]

Zooker,

This is what happens when you build an airport on a hilltop marsh. I think, to be fair, nobody could have predicted the golf course river farce but it's the sort of thing that could only happen at LBA !

I've been on duty at LBA a few times when we were practically the only airport open. Not 1993 though, that's before my time. It's quite a bizarre sight to behold, with Flybe, City Airline, VLM and God knows what else parked in every conceivable corner. It doesn't happen very often but it makes for an interesting shift when it does.

As this is a radar thread, may I ask what approach radars you were using at Manchester back in the eighties ? I remember the Marconi (264 ?) close to the (then) 24 threshold and a circular red and white stripey thing closer to the hangars.

As for Steeleye Span, I wouldn't say I was a fan. I remember "All Around My Hat" in 1975 and "Gaudete" a couple of years before. Jimmy Young once played "Padstow" on his Radio 2 programme about twenty years ago. Maddy Prior is, or was, the lead singer. That's about it ! A bizarre question, mind you. Why do you ask ??:confused::confused:

[canard68]

The red and white circular thing was an ACR 6 with updated TX RX.

[Mooncrest]

Thankyou Canard. Can't say I've heard of the ACR6 but I'll try to find out about it. What were the TX/RX mods you mention ? I have come across cases of "standard" ATC equipment packages, be they comms or radar, being tweaked to customer requirements, often by the local tels engineers.

[Mooncrest]

Helen49,

Check your PMs please. Thankyou. ;)

[spekesoftly]

I believe the 1980s Manchester radar mentioned in several posts above was a T4008.

ACR6 scanner with AR1 electronics.

[2 sheds]

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3182/2314654321_505297bfb8_m.jpg
Cossor ACR6 at Bournemouth Airport, 1979 before removal of the aerial to Stansted.

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3124/2304537301_3a9756a04f_m.jpg
The last Marconi 264 at Filton - now replaced with Marconi S511.

2 s

[ZOOKER]

Mooncrest, Helen, spekesoftly, and canard,
I tried to post this earlier in one go, but it disappeared. So here goes:-.
The History Of Radar At EGCC. - A short trilogy, - in three parts.

In 1970, there were airfield-based 2 radars at Manch, a Cossor ACR6, and a Marconi S264H. Both were sited to the west of the present pier 'C', on the grass area now covered by the north end of the Air Livery hanger and the cargo sheds. The ACR6 was on a squat round concrete structure, (similar to that in the picture above from 2 Sheds), and the S264 was a large yellow/white cosecant-squared antenna.
Manchester also had PAR, and the caravan sites are still discernible on satellite/aerial photographs. The last ATCO with a PAR rating retired 2 years ago, although the facility was withdrawn in the 1970s.
During the 1970s, when PATCRU was in existence, (providing radar cover to support the procedural ATCC at Barton Hall), other radar data was available.
Clee Hill and St. Annes radar data was transmitted to Manchester via 2 parabolic reflector dishes on the tower roof, east of the original VCR. Clee Hill information came via Sutton Common and St Annes via Winter Hill microwave links. At this time the St Annes site was a Marconi 264A, but the original Clee equipment type is unknown to me.

To be continued....................

[Eric T Cartman]

@ Zooker
Can't add much to the discussion as I only worked the 430 at Liverpool for 11 years (oh, & I had a Cadet Unit Endorsement for PATCRU ) but I was a Steeleye Span fan - I went to school with Tim Hart & his father christened my 3 boys ! Sad to say, Tim died on Xmas Eve in 2009 :{

[Mooncrest]

I haven't flown from Manchester for years. Is the ACR6 still there, lurking behind the hangars ? I can just see the Watchman from the car park roof at Terminal 1. I think it used to be on the south side but had to make way for the second runway. I dare say moving that installation took some doing.

[ZOOKER]

The History Of Radar at EGCC continues with the integration of Manchester Approach, PATCRU, Lindhome and the procedural ATC sectors at Barton Hall consolidated as Manchester Sub-Centre which opened on 29th january 1975.
The technical side is covered by Derek Henry in an article entitled 'Sub-Centre opening Memories' which is accessible on the NW Region page of the NAT/CAA RSA website.
By the early 1980s, the approach controllers, (SCMA 1 and 2), used the Marconi S264H and Plessey 4011 as their main radars. These were displayed on 2 16'' primary only flouride tubes.
By this time the S264H had been re-located to a site close to the present location of the MCT DVOR, and I believe the ariel was that from the car-park mounted installation from EGLL.
The 4011 was a combination of AR1 electronics, and the Cossor ACR6 head, and was located on a concrete tower just NE of the northern portal of the R/W06 road tunnel. In the mid/late 1980s a modification was carried out to the radar and it became the EN4000, with improved coverage, but stange square blips.
Both these were available for 2nm SRAs, with blips from the 264 almost half-a-mile wide. The 4011 was a great radar, and would give a huge return from a Guppy on a base or if Jodrell Bank was facing north.
Approach also had the use of primary and SSR data from the Clee Hill AR5, and St Annes 264A, on a 'plot-extracted' or, (in the case of St Annes), 'scan-converted' display. This display was used by No.1 director (119.4), for initial identification and sequence planning, No.2, using the primary displays for final vectoring/SRAs.
Approach could operate using the area radars alone, using en-route terrain-clearance criteria.
The area controllers had the use of Clee Hill and St Annes data and could toggle between the two, on horizontal 22" and vertical 16" displays.
Although no Decca 424 was present at EGCC, support was provided to the 424 director at EGGP via the LIV RAD position. This was usually carried out from the TMA West flat top display, using a shared frequency, 119.85, and involved identifying traffic to the 'GP 424 controller, or sequencing if the 424 was affected by clutter. It was a function carried out by both area and approach-rated controllers and dated from the days of NATS having the Liverpool ATC contract. When EGGP became 430 equipped, the task was more of a 'ident' service, as EGGP approach had much improved coverage.
To be concluded............

The Steeleye Span question arose from Mooncrest's ident. It was the label that their first two vinyl albums were released on. A great band, saw them twice at Loughborough students union.
Very saddened to hear about Tim Hart Eric.

[Mooncrest]

Aha, now I understand the "Steeleye Span " query. My adoption of the "Mooncrest" moniker is from the record label of the same name but specifically from a copy of "Snoopy versus The Red Baron" by The Hotshots which I bought near EGCC.

It appears that many airfields were operating at least two radar heads simultaneously, one for general surveillance and one for SRAs until the early eighties at least. Reading between the lines it seems to have taken some years for Approach units generally to gain an SSR capability, albeit fed in from a remote NATS/CAA site. In fact, this is still the case at EGNM. Beats me why the then airport management didn't buy a complete primary and secondary Watchman package back in '89. How does EGCC provide an Approach Radar service when the Watchman is on maintenance, bearing in mind the primary and secondary heads are co-mounted ?

A question for you Zooker. What is a Mediator suite ? I've heard the word "Mediator" used in ATC circles several times but have never known what it meant. I always guessed it was something to do with the ATC telephone tie-line network but otherwise I haven't a clue.

[ZOOKER]

As I understood it, (but I could be wrong), the 'Mediator Suite', - which sounds like a work by Vaughan-Williams, was the name of the furniture in use at Manchester and LATCC.
It usually comprised 2 horizontal radars, with the capability to accommodate 4 sector controllers (2 on each), A Chief Sector Controller (also known as a Crew-Chief or CSC), was in overall charge of the suite, and ATSAs manned the 'wings' or ends of each suite. A 'canopy' provided fittings for the lights, kept the smoke in the vicinity of the ATCOs and tall Chiefs could grab the canopy handles in times of crisis.
Some LATCC suites had positions for military bods too (Pole Hill did, - I think) and the TMA East suite at Manch had the approach controllers sitting next to the SE sector controller.
Each sector had its own suite, Daventry, Clacton, Dover/Lydd etc. If you find one in a museum, you can tell where it came from as the Manchester ones were dark green and the others, from LATCC and CATC were grey.
Sorry to hi-jack the 424 thread, all this should be filed under ATC History really.
Manchester can use Clee Hill and St Annes PRI/SSR data when the EGCC Watchman is U/S, but I believe they have to use 4000' initial altutude to comply with terrain clearance, and 5nm minimum separation instead of 3.
Please feel free to correct any of the above folks if it's wrong. I'll try and finish the EGCC radar thing this weekend.
.

[Talkdownman]

What is a Mediator suite ?
A suite of a couple of splittable sectors each with two 22" flat-tops with suspended Flight Progress Boards separated by a Chief Sector Controller's comms panel, two or three long-range verticals and Assistant Sector Controller Flight Progress Boards on the outside (hence the term 'Wing-Men'). Eash ASC was flanked by an Assistant position. Seating in total for 9 ATS staff (1 CSC, 4 SCs, 2 ASCs, 2 ATSAs) not counting U/Ts. Very cosy when fully staffed...halitosis or smoking not welcome. Result: bad backs, twisted necks, colds and flu, twisted ankles from enmeshed chair castors, red and green felt tip on starched white shirts...etc etc... Alzheimer's permits recall of ten suites in all: POL/IRS, DTY/LIC, TMA(N,) CLN E/W, BRS/STU, 20/23, TMA(S), DVR/LYD, SFD/WOR/HUR, plus a Spare Mediator Suite. They are probably all saucepans or exhaust pipes by now.

Another recollection. The original 1970/71 flat-tops weren't, they were domed and the shrimp boats from the shrimp-boat dispensers would sail downhill into the ashtrays. Alphanumeric 4096 code Mode A SSR arrived just in time for Mediator opening night 31 Jan '71...

[On the beach]

Aaah, shrimpboats and chinagraphs, a marriage made in .... but not on a vertical tube when wearing static-inducing, Bri-nylon!! :eek:

Now where's those metal strip holders and the Lamson tube gone? :}

Oops, sorry, must have been dreaming, but, oh what fun we used to have.

On the beach

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Lamson tube gone?>>

Indeed, what fun... When I worked overseas we would pick up a couple of scorpions during the late night lighting check.. and pop them in a Lamson Tube. Normal reaction when one picks up a tube is to unlatch the end bit and shake it on your hand. Yep, worked every time!!!

[obwan]

Mooncrest

Mediator was the civilian part of the ATC system for Area Control in theU.K. (except Scottish FIR) which came into being in the late 1960's early 1970's. The military function was known as Linesman. The full title was unsurprisingly LInesman Mediator. The Linesman part fell out of usage and "the Thing" became known as Mediator, which has now sadly passed on.:D

[chevvron]

Course I've encountered Lamson tubes; they were the things at Glasgow where the assistant could drop their pen, resulting in the system having to be dismantled to retrieve it.
At Farnborough, we had its predecessor, the Lamson Hoist. This was a set of rigid vertical wires carrying a metal slider which had a clip on which you clipped FPS, weather reports etc. operated by pulling on a handle which, if you didn't pull hard enough when sending messages to the VCR, didn't engage its stop and fell down on your head.
My overriding memory is of the test pilots of the then prototype Rockwell B1 paying us a visit; they couldn't believe the simplicity of the hoist and stood playing with it for hours!!

[Loki]

Wonderful Lamson tube system at Heathrow, with addressable collars read by some electromagnetic gismo which would change the "points" in the tubing, there being 4 or 5 possible addresses. Hours of fun sending tubes loaded with punchole confetti to the tower at very busy times....desktops covered with the stuff. System was maintained by two characters we called Tweedledee and Tweedledum who seemd to have a full time job clearing faults.

I think it was Derek Jenkins who told me a story about a cigar being put down a tube at Luton one Christmas.......

[ZOOKER]

At Manch, several Lamson tubes came out of the ceiling to the FPRS assistants.
It was occasionally referred to as The Steamship Enterprise. One of the VCR ATSA would often ask for a bag of crisps from the 4th floor goody-box. The crisps would be reduced to granules and sent up the pipe.
Many supermarkets have modern 'Lamson' systems to take cash etc, from the checkout positions to the cash office.

Assistant at EGNX did the 'pen down the tube' thing in the late 60s and they nearly had to take the control tower building apart to find it.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Derek Jenkins..... now there's a name that brings back memories!!

Another place i worked was linked to the adjacent RAF Tower by Lamson Tube. RAF guy rang up one evening to scrounge some sugar.... which one of my colleagues helpfully tipped straight into the pipe without the tube. They also discovered that if you popped a boiled egg in the pipe, it went off like a bomb at the other end!

[obwan]

H D Congrats on 6000th you mention Jenks, now he was a top banana. They definately don't make 'em like that anymore.

[folkyphil]

We never did discover the rightful owner of a pair of lady's briefs which arrived via the Lamson Tubes in Heathrow Flight Clearance one nightshift back in the late '60s. Happy Times!
Now...back to the 424....

[On the beach]

Now...back to the 424....

But just before we do. The only other bit of Decca kit I've been privileged to play with was the Decca roller map. The forerunner to Tomtoms. Same principle, but way before it's time. Endless hours of entertainment in the Daventry hold listening to the "Light Programme" or was it the "Home Service" :confused: and watching the pen scrawl all over the roller map.

roller map | map mk | decca roller | 1968 | 1 - 0078 | Flight Archive (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1968/1968-1%20-%200078.html)

p.s. Don't whatever you do, read the second ad down on the left. :=

[ZOOKER]

On the beach,
On your link, the cover of 'Flight International' with the Skyvan was the first copy I ever bought! Still have it somewhere. :ok:

[Mooncrest]

Zooker and others, thanks for the Mediator info. I just remember the then ATSM at EGNM a few years ago discussing the cost of telephone links with the Tels chief. He was saying something about "having the Mediator line to fall back on" if they couldn't allow a direct link.

As for the Decca 424, which is what this thread started with, I can't think of anything to else to say about it. It's certainly stirred up some strong feelings and reactgions in the ATC community. Thankyou everybody :ok:

[chevvron]

Was it already mentioned Cambridge had one in the early 70s?
Mooncrest; there's mediator and there's Mediator. Mediator (aka Mediocre)was the ATS system used at LATCC whilst a 'mediator line' was/is a line on the Air Traffic Operational Telephone Network (ATOTN), a dial up system still in use today but often set up at ATC units as 'speed dials' so you think they're direct lines when they're not.

[Mooncrest]

Chevron,

I can remember reading a book about Humberside Airport. There was quite a detailed ATC section and it mentioned something about the presence of PBXs at six regional locations. So I guess this is where the Mediator lines all "met". I don't know if this is still the case. When the tower at EGNM had the old RDCE gear external phone lines were accessed using old BT-style Autodial consoles, basically grey plastic boxes with yellow buttons. Sadly long since cast in the skips !



ZOOKER. Check your PMs please. Ta !

[matspart3]

I did 6 half milers (with an OJTI on the ACR430) today for helicopters 'cloud breaking' at Staverton into Cheltenham Races. First ones I've done for nearly 4 years due to medical issues! Some even had a passing acquaintance with the centre line! Our radar guys have been frantically busy this week, with over 50 SRA's done in the last 3 days...great fun! (and they all got in)

[Mooncrest]

Mats,

Is the ACR430 at Staverton actually in the guise of a MARIS radar ? I think I've read previously on here that it is.

Congratulations on your half-milers. It's been a long time since they were done at Yeadon.

[chevvron]

Reminds me of a Farnborough Air Show before the airfield became civil licenced. I was rostered on at 10am, weather was grotty (no ILS in those days) arrived, sat straight on the PAR (Cossor CR62) and did 14 talkdowns without a break.

[matspart3]

Mooncrest, Yes, it's a MARIS 900, which is a 430 antenna and turning gear with solid state heads, running on Windows NT network and 21" CRT monitors. I'll take some pictures next week and post them.

The big difference from the ACR430 is that you can actually see the aeroplanes on it, even when it's raining!

[Talkdownman]

did 14 talkdowns without a break
No-one would dare venture behind that black curtain to relieve you...

The big difference from the ACR430 is that you can actually see the aeroplanes on it, even when it's raining
So, what do you do for a challenge now...

[Get me some traffic]

Aah, the good old 424, SRAs from memory! The feeling of relief and satisfaction when the customer landed. Didn't get that from the SLA3c!

[almostyearly]

I am a massive geek that regrets every day not applying to NATS (even managed to source a copy of David Graves UK ATC book that was getting rare to find at the time ready for my application - it just sits on my shelf reminding me about my failure to apply) and have to say I find threads like this fascinating for my little geekish brain. I have three questions that have been playing on my mind for years that I wonder about:

1) I understand primary and SSR radar and I know places like Gloucester/Southend (about to change?) use primary only radar and I know unless you have SSR and a Mode C readout you won't know the height of the target but is there some sort of limit based on the radar emitter power/beam angle (I take it approach radars are angled more towards the horizon compared to enroute?) that means that contacts above xx thousand feet are not going to show? Theres a scanner video on Youtube (search southend approach, talks about RIS so I know it is not new) where some contacts are reported "unknown high speed traffic...(range/bearing)...level unknown" - could this be just as likely to be an overflying flight at FL360 in the airways as much as it could be a fast moving military A/C or will the radar not pick up contacts that high being a non-enroute radar?

2) Say you have an airways leaver going to Gloucester or Oxford and they leave airway CAS and are given some sort of TS/DS outside CAS by swanwick, I understand that part of the radar processing uses some sort of 'height filters' in the enroute sector so it does not clutter the radar with people flying over the top (?) or below. Do these filters get turned off when providing a service outside CAS and you get all primary returns and non-filtered SSR traffic to advise/deconflict with the airways leaver?

3) Do you have to be a licenced airfield to provide radar? I thought you would but it looks like Lasham (from the start of this thread) has some sort of radar...is it just a case of getting permission from Ofcom or whoever to operate in that frequency range and away you go...I always thought to provide a radar service you had to provide an ATC service and to provide ATC you needed to be licenced or am I hopelessly wrong on this one aswell.

Thanks for any answers - they will just satisfy some curiosity going around my brain!

[chevvron]

almostyearly:

2) Swanwick don't provide ATC outside controlled airspace; Gloucester or Oxford inbounds might work Brize Radar on the rare occasions they open nowadays and I believe Oxford have their own radar now, so they may well cut out the middleman; certainly in the days I used to do Farnborough LARS, pilots preferred to stay with me even when I offered a handover to Brize.

[Talkdownman]

Do you have to be a licenced airfield to provide radar?
No. It's not connected. Aerodrome licensing is to protect users of Public Transport. The ANO requires that, in the United Kingdom, most flights for the public transport of passengers take place at a licensed aerodrome, or at a Government aerodrome. See CAP168 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP168.PDF). ATC is not a pre-requisite. FISO and, under some circumstances, AGCS is adequate. For minimum facilities see CAP393 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf) Section 3 Page 8.

it looks like Lasham ...has some sort of radar
Decca (latterly Plessey) 424 Approach Surveillance Primary Radar (http://www.woottonbridgeiow.org.uk/decca-legacy/chapter6.php#6.2). It is a private facility operated by an aircraft maintenance and repair organisation for its own purposes (non-public transport) and is licensed by the CAA. Service provision includes Traffic Service and Surveillance Radar Approach provided by CAA-licensed ATCOs. The radar has a narrow pencil beam. Traffic detection is dependent on the manual positioning of the beam therefore it is not suitable for Deconfliction Service. (The radar aerial Polar Diagram would have to be cosecant-squared or similar to ensure 'solid cover' with the additional disadvantage of detection of high-level overflights.)

to provide a radar service you had to provide an ATC service and to provide ATC you needed to be licenced
Provision of a radar service outside CAS is part of what is known as ATSOCA (See CAP774 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP774.pdf)). Where provided by civilian licensed ATCOs it is provided in accordance with CAP493 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP493Part1corr.pdf) and is subject to CAA audit.

[Mooncrest]

Continuing the thread of older ATC equipment...

I know this has nothing to do with radar but anyway... are there any ATC units in the UK still using solid-state voice switching systems for their RT and phone lines ? I know several NATS and non-NATS units have installed the likes of Schmid and Frequentis VCCS to replace the traditional push button and PO style key and lamp units. Are any of these still out there ? I hope so. I've just bought an old key and lamp unit on ebay and it's a beautiful piece of equipment. Solidly built, simple design and tough, reliable switches that absolutely do the job. Typical British PO engineering and difficult to beat :)

By the way, Gordon Dennison. Please check your PMs. Thankyou.

[Tigersaw]

My memory of them is different. Lamps failing, dirty contacts, intercom switches that wont pop back out, loose wobbly switches.

[rodan]

Given the choice, I'd keep the modern touch-screen (having used both).

[Mooncrest]

Thankyou for your replies Tigersaw and rodan. Tigersaw, it sounds like you had some bad experiences with the old gear. Rodan, is there anything in particular about the touchscreens that you prefer ? Ta.

[chevvron]

You didn't work on the SLA1 then? We still had one at Farnborough in '82, replaced by a CR62 in about '83, we never had an SLA3 of any mark although we were supposed to get the one from Pershore, it was delivered but then it was given to Bedford instead. Then when I did my PAR course at Shawbury in '84, I was trained on the SLA3 sims when I would never use it in anger apart from live traffic in Shawbury Tower.

[clicker]

Just spend a while reading this thread, very informative, thanks.

I have no ATC connections as such, I wanted to go into RAF radio and radar but failed the eyesight medical being a short sighted and now old bat.

However I have had several visits to ATC units in the past and always enjoyed them.

My first visit was to West Drayton when then had the radar IIRC at Sopley. Thats when I found out not all ATC was radar. Can't remember the date but at least 40-45 years ago. I later visited the same location when the various radar suites were in service. Both great visits and I sure they had to shoe horn me out with force!

I also had visits to various RAF ATC units as an Air Cadet member of staff. One to Wyton's PAR was very interesting. Even I could see that the Vitor on the PAR was rubbish. Got told it was the Station Commander earning his flying pay for the year and was very rusty.

The most interesting visit was to RAF Neatishead about 6 months before they moved to a new control room. They allowed myself and my friend to sit by and watch two controllers on a night exercise. I was surprised how old the equipment was, primary display only but SSR available 4 times a minute via a tracker ball input, press the button and wait for the code to display on a panel.

Yep even at 60 you could put me in front of a display and I'll be happy for hours. Never did manage Swanwick but with the conditions after 9/11 etc I doubt if could get in anyway.

[Mooncrest]

I've never had the privilege of working in ATC but I've managed to work at EGNM for nudging 17 years so that's something I suppose. The newer radars and comms system all look fancy and doubtless provide more facilities to the user. That said, I still prefer the older clunky BRITISH stuff. ;)

Warmest wishes for 2013.

[Mooncrest]

Are any NATS units still using the Watchman ? I gather there was a plan to replace all of these with the Raytheon ASR10. Just wondered if this has happened yet.

Also, given that Cardiff is NATS, does it still use a Marconi S511 or has this now been supplanted by a Raytheon ?

Leeds Bradford's Watchman is still going strong after 23 years. Still no on-site SSR aerial though. I dare say plenty of British Watchmans are still turning and earning, Teesside, Southampton et al.:ok:

[radarman]

Mooncrest,
Gibraltar still has Watchman. However, NATS involvement is limited to the provision of ATC services and BCU. The airfield and radar/comms are all MoD owned.

[opnot]

Manch still uses watchman but it is in the process of being replaced

[chevvron]

Mooncrest: NATS Services Ltd. supply ATS staff to airfields. The operator of the airfield provides the radar and other hardware, but they often have a contract with NATS Engineering Ltd to supply the equipment, hence although many airfields have replaced Watchman with ASR10 (in my opinion a retrograde step) some still use Watchman or whatever else the airport operator chooses to use.

[Mooncrest]

Chevron, I take it you don't think the ASR10 is as good as the Watchman. Why is that ? I thought radar technology was always improving.

Opnot, I assume Manchester is getting the ASR10 as well. May I ask what your opinion is on this radar, given Chevron's thoughts ! Also, whereabouts is it being sited ?

Thanks all !

[opnot]

mooncrest
have not seen the radar picture yet so cannot make any comment .Radar head is south of the airfield next to the new smr radar head

[chevvron]

ASR10 is a totally processed radar which suffers from track jitter. I can see it's suitable for some airfields inside controlled airspace where you rarely need track accuracy or need to do SRA's, but the Watchman had better data presentation due to it's analogue type display, plus if necessary, you could cancel the AMTI and 'see' raw radar whereas the ASR10 signal is sent from the radar head to ATC in processed form. Also with Watchman, the track history was in the form of a tail formed from the afterglow of previous blips, with ASR10 it's formed by electronic trail dots which don't give you the same information.

[Mooncrest]

Thanks for your replies folks. Reading between the lines it seems the ideal approach primary radar is raw from the point of collection, i.e. the radar head and is processed when it reaches the controller at whereupon it can be viewed raw or with bells and whistles. Speaking an an ATC layman I suppose this level of automation and presentation takes the controlling out of controlling, to some extent. I wonder how the introduction of the ASR10 has gone down with controllers as a whole ? Is it popular or not and what do the engineers make of it :confused:

Interesting to note the siting of the ASR10 at Manchester. The Watchman was over on the southside before the second runway was built, as I recall. I remember the Marconi 264 somewhere near the then RW24 threshold.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Speaking an an ATC layman I suppose this level of automation and presentation takes the controlling out of controlling, to some extent.>>

Not at all because radar simply provides a picture of what is happening, whether it is raw or processed. OK, modern radar displays have bells and whistles, most of which are not needed, but they don't change the controlling task.

[radarman]

chevvron,
Don't forget that although the original Watchman had Plessey analogue displays, the RAF (and maybe others) replaced these consoles about ten years ago with FR digital displays working through a Windows-type processor. No afterglow, just computer-generated trail dots. So the basic primary radar was a Watchman, but it was viewed through a much-updated type of display from a different manufacturer.

[chevvron]

We had an FR rasterscan display hooked up to the Watchman installed in the old tower at Farnborough for about 6 months before we moved out, and it displayed the ordinary primary returns rather than electronic ones. The TFT based ATM was also hooked up to the Watchman, prior to being moved to the new tower. Maybe it's only the NATS installed ones which have fully processed Watchman, although I'm aware the Anglia Radar displays which displayed the Cromer Watchman at Stansted were fully processed analogue displays.

[Mooncrest]

Hello HD,

I understand what you're saying. I was just trying to extend the analogy of when SSR was first introduced which obviated the need for a 30 degree identification turn and, later on, requests for passing levels and so on.

It will be interesting to see how the non-NATS units get on when their legacy radar equipment is replaced by the likes of the ASR10 and the Thales thing (sorry, can't remember its name).

[Airbanda]

Reply to Gordon Dennison re swapout of LBA radar:

My mother taught at Springfield, the Special School at the junction of Whitehouse Lane/Scotland Lane. I was a spotter at LBA from 73/4 and used to walk down to the school to cadge a lift home afterwards.

Can clearly remember seeing a 'scanner' unit on the old apron and subsequently noticing the Plessey logo on the active item on the a/f.

Circa ;ate 74 or early 75?

[Spitoon]

It will be interesting to see how the non-NATS units get on when their legacy radar equipment is replaced by the likes of the ASR10...What are you expecting?

I know I've been out of it for a while but it's just another primary radar. I worked a number of different radars throughout my operational days, most of which were spent with ANSPs other than NATS - each was different and had it's own strengths and weaknesses.

And, BTW, at one unit I was using far more capable kit than the nearest NATS-operated unit.

[Talkdownman]

Is anybody out there still using one of these ? Doubtful, I know, given the vintage technology.
Our 424 is probably, by now, the last. It's certainly now breathing its last :{

[Gordon Dennison]

Helen, I can no longer be confident about my memory ( or anything else ! ) but I am reasonably sure that we were never able to offer SRA's to rwy 10 at LBA.

[Mooncrest]

Hello Gordon. Hope you're well.

Whilst I was never a member of your Leeds ATC squad, I am reasonably confident that SRAs weren't available for RW10. Yes for RW14 and 28 and when the 32 ILS was unserviceable.

The Watchman can manage 2 mile SRAs. I don't know about the capabilities of the newer offerings from Raytheon et al.

[Talkdownman]

Anybody got any 424 spare parts for disposal, please? Anything considered....

[Ampex]

Interested to hear the old 424 radar at EMA is still around. I (and Peter Bentley from Decca) installed and calibrated it back in the early 60s. Happy memories of lots of glowing valves and the whine of the 400c/s (or Hz, as they would say nowadays!) generator.

[Talkdownman]

The Decca 424 at Lasham is turning and burning in its new guise as a 424(M)

[chevvron]

The Decca 424 at Lasham is turning and burning in its new guise as a 424(M)
So you'll be back in work then?

[Talkdownman]

Dunno. Somebody will have to be. Could be a vacancy for another 424 ATCO!

[chevvron]

Dunno. Somebody will have to be. Could be a vacancy for another 424 ATCO!
Don't look at me; it's those 24 hours of standby duties; I like a glass or 5 of vino in the evenings.

[Talkdownman]

No problem. That's a pre-requisite for operating a 424...

[On the beach]

That's a pre-requisite for operating a 424...

Along with three hands!:)

[chevvron]

The Decca 424 at Lasham is turning and burning in its new guise as a 424(M)

By the way, what's the 'M' suffix stand for? Are you using the 'new' displays?

[Talkdownman]

(M) = Maris (U K) Ltd, ie. the company which refurbished the head and turning gear, and installed solid state electronics and flat screen daylight-viewing displays.

[chevvron]

(M) = Maris (U K) Ltd, ie. the company which refurbished the head and turning gear, and installed solid state electronics and flat screen daylight-viewing displays.

Did they re-furbish your joystick too?

[Talkdownman]

Oh, come on, get a grip...

[Mooncrest]

How old IS the 424M at Lasham ? Must be at least fifty. The Watchman at LBA is now into its 26th year and has had the 4G proofing treatment. I l'll be amazed if it's still around in another 25 years though.

[Talkdownman]

It started life as a Decca 424, and dates from the early to mid-fifties, so it is around 60 years old. Story goes that Dan-Air procured in the early seventies from an ex-Navy source. Sadly the long and short range tubes gave up the ghost in 2013, and were disposed of along with the control panel, but the the head and turning gear remain. I understand that the head was tidied up and re-coated.

It gets the jets in...when it's not raining...

[chevvron]

It started life as a Decca 424, and dates from the early to mid-fifties, so it is around 60 years old. Story goes that Dan-Air procured in the early seventies from an ex-Navy source. Sadly the long and short range tubes gave up the ghost in 2013, and were disposed of along with the control panel, but the the head and turning gear remain. I understand that the head was tidied up and re-coated.

It gets the jets in...when it's not raining...

Don't know exactly when Dan Air installed the 424 at Lasham however the Ecko ARAA was still in use in the early '80s until Arthur Beaton left 'cos several guys from Farnborough visited late '70s with a view to doing relief duties for Arthur and I remember them describing it to me.
A retired Farnborough controller (the late Byron Jones) actually did join Dan Air, (must've been about '81 'cos I remember him trying to cope with Farnborough's new SSR equipped displays and they weren't installed until '81), and operated the ARAA, along with LATCC retiree Des Middleton.

[Mooncrest]

Clearly the 424 doesn't go without a fight, thanks to MARIS.

[jh5speed]

For what it's worth - here's the one at East Mids Aeropark

https://picasaweb.google.com/111857309911638530878/Aero

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

What? Where?

[chevvron]

What? Where?

Too late, talkdownman has nicked it for spare parts.

[jh5speed]

OK, let's see whether anything appears now ...


http://www.pprune.org/members/132046-jh5speed-albums-jh5speed-picture224-dsc00027.jpg

At East Midlands Aeropark ...

[jh5speed]

The thought occurred to me whether this is the only radar head in captivity. Are these things usually preserved in museums (we'll discount Lasham as a museum of course...).

I guess you guys are more interested in the functionality of the electronics system at the other end of the wire, and so this comment perhaps is better suited to Spotters' Corner. Apologies if so.

[SilentHandover]

I think there is one at the Brenzett Aeronautical Museum.

Gallery (http://www.brenzettaero.co.uk/Brenzett_Aeronautical_Museum_Trust/Gallery.html#0)

[Buster the Bear]

The 424 has been 'off line' at Lasham for a good while, but I noticed it turning recently which hopefully is a sign of good things to come?

[chevvron]

The 424 has been 'off line' at Lasham for a good while, but I noticed it turning recently which hopefully is a sign of good things to come?
talkdownman where are you?

[Talkdownman]

Lasham 424 now on the scrap heap, and me along with it.

Clocks off...


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/854x1280/dsc02641_c9a5250ce73d04d3e03a0d62957d75be4e1c50f5.jpeg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1280x960/img_6439_b5ede0e3dbccaca4e495feb3a3b27c9320916835.jpg

[Equivocal]

Sorry to hear that, Talkdownman - about both you and the radar. But as you hang up your headset for the last time you must have been able to smile about the career, and the records that you have broken and set over the years.

[Talkdownman]

Sorry to hear that, Talkdownman - about both you and the radar. But as you hang up your headset for the last time you must have been able to smile about the career, and the records that you have broken and set over the years.

Thanks for that! Yes, it has been a long and very varied career on which to reflect. I dunno about records, but I wouldn't mind a quid for each validation. I wish I had kept an air traffic diary, and taken more pictures, of co-workers in particular. The 424 did its job, quite adequate for getting the jets onto the ground enroute to the hangar. Watching the crews now (trying to) do it themselves is providing some good spectator sport on occasions. If you go down there, don't forget your tin hat...

[Brian 48nav]

Malcy,

Time to write your memoirs!

If you can be a bit more discrete than Clint ( RIP ) was, you may even find a publisher.

Enjoy your 'retirement'.

Brian W

[Buster the Bear]

Thanks for that! Yes, it has been a long and very varied career on which to reflect. I dunno about records, but I would mind a quid for each validation. I wish I had kept an air traffic diary, and taken more pictures, of co-workers in particular. The 424 did its job, quite adequate for getting the jets onto the ground enroute to the hangar. Watching the crews now (trying to) do it themselves is providing some good spectator sport on occasions. If you go down there, don't forget your tin hat...

We can watch the circus from the dark side :D

[trafficnotsighted]

We finally decommissioned the Yeovil Westland Sperry 424 last November, it had not been used for 4 years, as the last validated ATCO using it I spent most of my time conducting SRA's for currency. The narrow beam felt like I was doing a PAR rather than a SRA most of the time.

[chevvron]

We finally decommissioned the Yeovil Westland Sperry 424 last November, it had not been used for 4 years, as the last validated ATCO using it I spent most of my time conducting SRA's for currency. The narrow beam felt like I was doing a PAR rather than a SRA most of the time.
Is the Hazeltine MLS still sitting in a hangar gathering dust or are Leonardo going to revive it?

[trafficnotsighted]

More than likely hidden away in some corner.

[Talkdownman]

Time to write your memoirs! If you can be a bit more discrete than Clint ( RIP ) was, you may even find a publisher
I doubt I would be able to bite my tongue either. A lot of what Clint wrote 'struck a chord'... ;-)