NDB ILS DME MINIMUMS

[noox89]

Hello,

I recently came across a chart (especially UK) where there are ILS and NDB at one chart. In Czech Republic when we have these two combined, Jeppesen states ILS, LOC (G/S out) and NDB minimums. But for example at Liverpool chart 11-1 from Jeppesen for RWY 09 there are only two minimums (ILS and LOC G/S out). I use those LOC G/S out minimums for NDB as well. Is it correct?

[BOAC]

NO! As a 'Flight Instructor' you should know the difference! Jepp do not publish an NDB approach on R09 at Liverpool so what are you planning to fly? There is an NDB approach on R27

[Denti]

Same with LIDO. From what i read into it it is not a chart for both an ILS and an NDB approach but rather a chart for an ILS+NDB approach where the NDB is required because it is an integral part of the procedure. Haven't been there in a few years so correct me if i'm wrong.

[PT6A]

Spot on Denti, that is exactly it.

NDB is in the procedure title because it forms an integral part of the ILS procedure at Liverpool, specifically for the missed approach as the hold for both 09 & 27 is at "LPL"

Remember no minimums no approach.... Other wise you would be making up your own procedure...

PT6A

[noox89]

I see that now, thank you.

[BOAC]

For the avoidance of doubt, if you are looking at Jepps (who nearly always get things right - that was for Aterpster:)), a 'pure' NDB approach will be annotated in the 16- series whereas the ILS will be in the 11-

[noox89]

I was just flying it at Flight simulator and got confused because we (LKVO) have two approaches together (NDB and ILS) annotated 11-1 and you can fly both ILS and NDB from one chart. But now when I study it LKVO has ILS or NDB. Liverpool has NDB ILS DME and NDB only for base turn. I had to have a blackout when I was posting it and didnt notice the difference.

[BOAC]

Yes, your chart states 'OR NDB' which means it is 'OK'. Don't worry about blackouts - I have them sometimes when Mrs B talks to me:)

[ImbracableCrunk]

So you're saying I can't shoot just a "DME" approach using info from a ILS-DME chart?

Dang, I was really looking forward to trying that one out.

[Tinstaafl]

Bit of a drift, but Australia used to have a DME only approach ie no azimuth aid, called a 'DME Descent'. You were required to be able to home to the DME to get within 2 DME, time an outbound heading to an 80/260 procedure turn then home back to the aid, arriving again within 2 DME.

Not so difficult to bracket & home with more modern DME receivers but there were receivers for the unique, Oz developed domestic DME system that didn't have a rate of closure function. Instead you would have to time a mile or two to find ROC, adjust, re-time, adjust & re-time

A lot of places only had a single NDB or VOR, plus DME so a published DME Descent was useful to meet Oz' IFR charter requirement to have two approaches at the destination OR carry an alternate. Alternates within reasonable range (or even within range at all) weren't always available.

[BOAC]

So you're saying I can't shoot just a "DME" approach using info from a ILS-DME chart? - no! You are welcome to do so, just not too near me please..................

[Tee Emm]

Interested in your thoughts about the validity during an instrument rating test, of using LNAV for flying an NDB approach or over-laying a localiser track that happens to coincide with an NDB inbound course and using VOR/LOC mode to maintain the NDB track.

While this combination makes the tracking of the NDB on autopilot relatively easy especially with FD operation, some may argue it doesn't really test the candidate's skill at using the ADF needles for tracking. In other words the NDB approach using LNAV cannot be honestly called a test of pilot competency at flying an NDB approach?

As an instrument rating examiner would you be happy to tick off the box that the candidate has demonstrated competency to your satisfaction that he can fly an accurate NDB approach?