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Learjet-45
3rd Feb 2012, 11:14
Hi there,

I thought I would share a recent experince I had in the circuit, it was only my second ever Solo, off runway 19 however about 45 minutes in ATC advised of arunway change from 19 to 14 Left.

now if you are new to solo flying this can be quite alarming as you are trying to just get used to the feeling of being alone, and although most would not have a problem with a runway change, it certainly would not be prefernce on your 1st or 2nd Solo.

any how on turning downwind for Runway 19 I was told to follow the Cessna in late down wind, about a few seconds later ATC advised the Cessna and myself in a Cherokee that we were to make left turns and join downwind for runway 14 Left.

again when your new to solo flying it is not ideal to have a runway change!

however I reported to ATC that I was on downwind for runway 14 left when I reached about mid downwind just to check I was in the right position.

ATC seemed surprized I would report this, but I would rather have them surprized than me be on the wrond downwind leg.

I turned on to Baed leg and had lost sight of the Cessna in front of me, ATC asked if I had the traffic in view, I replied I have lost sight of traffic, then out of nowhere I saw the Cessna directly below me as we both turned final!!! obviously they could not see me because of the high wing, and I could not see them at the 1st instance because of my low wing!

ATC immediatley asked me to climb out of the circuit and go around! which I did and then landed safley after completing another circuit.

I am not sure who is in the wrong here, my immediate reaction was the Cessna has taken a longer downwind leg and we have crossed paths that way.

The moral to the story is it was a close call! it could have been worse had ATC not noticed and I descend on to the top of the Cessna on Final!

I would advise any new Solo pilots to be extra aware of the circuit if there is a runway change, and dont be afraid to let ATC know where you are and what you are doing, if in any doubt go around climb out of the circuit and make yourself number 1.

Thank you for reading

thing
3rd Feb 2012, 11:49
Glad you're OK. File it away in the 'experiences' bit of your flying brain. I'm still wet behind the ears as a pilot but I think in that situation I would have just kept heading downwind until I saw the no 1. If I still hadn't seen him I would have gone out of cct and done another join. Mind you, you would have hopefully have heard a 'Final' call from him by that time.

Easy to say sitting in a chair on the ground though, I remember my first few post solo trips (only last year) and you're maxed out without having to worry about runway changes. I was downwind no2 the other day and it was a grey, claggy, crap day and I couldn't pick up no 1 (mil a/c with matt grey camouflage doing a straight in approach), I flew past my normal base turn point and asked ATC for his position, 'On the runway' they replied. I looked and I still couldn't see him.

BackPacker
3rd Feb 2012, 12:24
I turned on to Baed leg and had lost sight of the Cessna in front of me

Most important lesson I think is NOT to turn base when you are number 2 and have no idea where number 1 is.

You can always ask ATC to call your base turn for you. They will then inform you when to turn base, and ensure sufficient separation between you and the number 1.

Anyway, did you debrief this situation with your instructor? Sounds like an excellent learning opportunity. Particularly if you can follow it up with a visit to the tower, speak with the ATC on duty and maybe even review the radar tapes.

mad_jock
3rd Feb 2012, 12:24
Is there anyway that ATC know your a student where you are?

This runway change thing always ends up in a cluster :mad: when there is circuit traffic. The wind never changes that quickly they can't land everything then get everyone to taxi up to the new end and fire everyone off again.

The Heff
3rd Feb 2012, 12:27
Out of curiousity, did you prefix "Student" to your call-sign? I appreciate that in Australia, this might not be the done thing, but in the UK whenever a student is flying solo he addresses himself as "Student G-ABCD" where G-ABCD is the registration of the aircraft. The advantage of this is that its like wearing 'L Plates' on the radio, and alerts the ATCO/FISO/&c. that you are still under-training for you PPL, and their attitude towards you changes, but not in a patronising or condescending way.

Usually, they'll make more of an effort to speak slower and avoid complicated instructions. Also, in this instance if the Cessna ahead realised that you were a student, he might have decided to leave the circuit and re-join after you had landed. Then again, he might not have.

In speculating on who was in the wrong, if there was a mid-air collision then I think the fault would be attributed to your error; because you failed to maintain visual contact with the Cessna, and failed to obtain that visual before turning your aircraft. Like Thing said, this is easy to state whilst sitting in the comfort of an armchair on terra firma, but something else when in the air on the most demanding part of a flight.

It would be interesting to hear an instructor's opinion, though.

mad_jock
3rd Feb 2012, 12:39
I am an Instructor and so is backpacker.

These runway changes with student circuit traffic have always led to bum clinchers and near misses. ATC don't seem to realise how little capacity the solo students have. Unfortaunately the only way of them increasing it is by flying solo.

I had a similar experence at 5 hours with an instructor onboard during my PPL. He never spotted it until I climbed away. Again this was on a runway change because of some tosser coming in a Biz jet straight in to the oppersite end to the current circuit direction at a UNicom field.

Yes the OP is a naughty pilot for turning in without seeing the number one traffic. You can be assured they won't do it again. I never think there is much point labouring the point with debriefs after a student has **** themselves. Just confirm that they know what happened, then confirm that they know how not to let it happen again. If they haven't a clue its back to dual flying for a while until they do.

Learjet-45
3rd Feb 2012, 12:50
great lesson learnt for me here - continue downwind until visual contact can be made with number 1.

in OZ it is not the norm to say "Student and call sign" but is a good idea, I had informed ATC that I was going out on my 2nd Solo before take off however.

looking back it seems so simple just to extend downwind! but I was caught up on the runway change.

I was actually dreding a runway change in flight! and when it happened I could not belive my luck.

any how I have certainly learned more from this post than what my de-breif picked up on.

Thanks to all for input.

BackPacker
3rd Feb 2012, 12:56
I am an Instructor and so is backpacker.

Not a flight instructor though. My job is in IT education. Flying is just a hobby.:ok:

I was actually dreding a runway change in flight!

They can be incredibly complicated, particularly if it also leads to a circuit direction change.

Here's my tactic for dealing with them. Mentally or physically bring out the airport diagram, draw both circuits and the circuit direction. Figure out where the downwind legs intersect. At that intersection point you leave the old circuit and join the new circuit.

If they don't intersect, if you have to overfly the old or the new runway to reach that intersection, if you have to make a turn with a ridiculously large angle, or if you're not happy with the change in general, simply leave the circuit via whatever route is convenient and safe, then rejoin the circuit using the procedures that apply to the new runway direction. Or get detailed instructions, or even vectors, from ATC.

But the best solution for ATC would be to warn all circuit traffic a few minutes ahead of time, give them the option of landing, remaining in the circuit, or leaving the circuit for a few minutes. So that the circuit is either completely empty, or only contains experienced pilots that have had a few minutes to prepare, when the runway change is effected. Likewise, incoming aircraft should be held outside the circuit for a minute or so, and aircraft taxiing for departure should be sent to the new runway ahead of time.

thing
3rd Feb 2012, 13:02
I was actually dreding a runway change in flight! and when it happened I could not belive my luck.

Ah, but now that is has happened, it's one of those things you can mentally prepare for next time. I still before I go flying think 'What's the worst scenario I will find myself in on this trip' other than mid air, alien abduction, that sort of thing. More like if you've always had a zone crossing through x airspace, it doesn't mean you will always get one, so have a plan B to route around it. Practical stuff like that.

mad_jock
3rd Feb 2012, 13:06
Fair enough backpacker.

And for lear.

Here is the accident which caused the "student" prefix to come into use in the UK .

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Cessna%20F150L,%20G-BABB%2007-07.pdf

Another is to always have an escape plan if things start getting a bit to much or confusing. Leaving the circuit to go to a well known point in the area then rejoining from there after all the excitement has died down would be :ok: in my book. Discuss it with your instructor first thought, what to you might seem a sensible point might be smack in the middle of the instrument approach.

Another thing is that ATCO's have to go through the same learning curve as pilots with building up experence "solo" Have a chat with the controller and tell them what happened why you cocked up. Then maybe if they have the same situation again they won't leave it up to the second solo student to sort out thier own seperation. Over controlling is a pain in the bum but sometimes it is required to ensure everyone is safe.

dont overfil
3rd Feb 2012, 13:08
If you lose awareness, or there's a confusing runway change, especially at an uncontrolled field It's not a bad idea to climb back into the overhead or at least the dead side.

mad_jock
3rd Feb 2012, 13:09
Different rules in OZ overfill, that might be a really good idea or a particualrly silly one.

dont overfil
3rd Feb 2012, 13:17
S'pose OZ might be different. However bu**ering off up or out 'till you get the brain sorted is the thing to do.

Just thinking with differing dead sides, up might be best unless atc says different.

Crash one
3rd Feb 2012, 13:17
My two-pennorth for what it's worth. During circuit work & an EFATO I hadn't a clue where I was for a few mins. A mile out of the usual circuit pattern & it all looks different. Could it not be an idea if Instructors spent more time showing the outer edges of the "circuit" than just the up round & down bit?
D.O Loss of awareness is just that. Where the hell is the dead side/overhead?

dont overfil
3rd Feb 2012, 13:21
Crash one,
Overhead starts with up. (towards the clouds in Fife).
D.O.:ok:

Crash one
3rd Feb 2012, 13:27
Crash one,
Overhead starts with up. (towards the clouds in Fife).
D.O.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

:D:D:D................

Learjet-45
3rd Feb 2012, 13:52
Thanks for the comments, after researching further it apears that a similar thing happened at the same airport a few years ago see the link below, very tragically the Solo pilot was not as lucky as I was and died on his 1st ever Solo.

The first report blames the ATC for inadequet seperation

ATC Report Aerodrome controller criticised over crash - YouTube (http://youtu.be/X80ceyi_i5A)

News Buliten C152 and PA28 mid air collision in Melbourne AUS, 27 Aug 08 - YouTube (http://youtu.be/5Bf89WIH6Jc)

mad_jock
3rd Feb 2012, 13:56
Up is ok until there is someone practising holds in the overhead or doing an over head join.

The best plan is different for each airport and can be dependent on the local rules and traffic situation.

And discussion stimulates thought, which then leads to learning and experence which can be related back to real life.

So crash one your two penny's worth has equal weight as mine or any other pilot. Sometimes instructors focus on items and presume all students will get the other items. PPrune has changed the way I instruct and that is as much from the feed back of students as it is of the advice of fellow instructors.

Redbird72
3rd Feb 2012, 14:14
During training, my instructor briefed me on the procedure should the runway change during a circuit whenever the wind was sufficiently light & variable for this to be likely.

However, starting training at the same place as the events in MJ's link and only a year later, there was probably an increased focus on what unanticipated events in the circuit can do to a student's capacity to cope.

Not long post qualification, I once arrived at an airfield at the same time as 30 foreign microlights - all arriving from various directions and a mixed bag of circuit direction/height. Finding myself ill at ease and at one point far too slow, I left the circuit to go sightseeing for 15 mins and returned once it had all gone quiet!:ok:

TractorBoy
3rd Feb 2012, 14:21
Everyone has their own ways of coping with these events. Personally I'd leave the circuit, go a few miles out and sort out the new circuit pattern in a less stressful, safer environment. It might add 10 mins on to my flight, but IMHO it's worth it.

I've also had several jets inbound at the same time as me (into an A/G station). Again, just sit a few miles away, enjoy the sight of them doing their run and breaks, and once they were out of the way, continue my join.

Frelon
3rd Feb 2012, 14:44
Many years ago whilst flying from Blackbushe I turned downwind and called "G-ABCD downwind for runway 07"

Immediately after I heard "G-ABCE downwind for runway 25!"

Bottom clinching moment as I saw this other aircraft in the distance heading towards me at circuit height! Mental process kicks in - "Am I in the right, or is he??"

As it happened he quickly realised that he was in the wrong and turned away, having been confused about the runway change that had occurred whilst he had been out of the circuit!

Lesson learnt by both parties, I hope. Check runway in use, and check again!!

alland2012
3rd Feb 2012, 15:04
As a new member here, and also as a student pilot busy right now with my PPL training, I would like to thank the OP for starting this thread and for the input from the experienced pilots here in response to the thread topic.

It is something else to jot down in my note book and discuss with my instructor.

Thank you..:ok:

aluminium persuader
3rd Feb 2012, 15:22
Mate, just assuming you're talking about Morrabbin, can I suggest you give ATC a call & go over & have a chat with them? I know some of them very well, and they're not that bad!
They'll be able to explain everything & give you lots more hints & tips besides, in what can be a pretty tricky area.

For an extra-special welcome and 1st-class treatment, take doughnuts!

ap:ok:

Grob Queen
3rd Feb 2012, 17:59
An interesting thread and its made me aware of what could happen it the cct when flying solo and what I would do. A few thoughts come to mind which some of you experienced guys may be able to clarify.

Option one - Continue further downwind before turning base. yep, I can see thats a good option. however, to play devils advocate, there is a danger of getting lost, especially for a second solo with presumably little knowledge of local area and none of nav. This would be the same if one was to fly away from the safety of "home" and the cct at this stage...how would you cope if you had not been taught PFLS (ok, so EFATOs probably have been taught by that stage). This course of action surely puts more stress on we Studes?

Option two (and what I think I would personally do) is fly to the landmark which ATC and everyone at our place use as a hold, mosey around there for a bit and inform ATC that I was "holding around the mast" they would know exactly what I meant and would hopefully give me new instructions.

Another option of course is to check on the ATIS again for rwy in use. ;)

Another option is for the early solos at least not to go solo when the cct is busy or when ATC Is operating. This is how my instructor has played it with me, three weeks ago I went solo for the fourth time, but it was the first with ATC operating; and the cct was not that busy. Even then there was an issue:mad: and the Tower got very stroppy with me for crossing 19 threshold without a clearance when both my instructor and I had definitely heard the clearance was through to 26!

Many thanks to the OP for starting this thread, it certainly does make one think!

thing
3rd Feb 2012, 18:21
Where's the mast that you're talking about?

Crash one
3rd Feb 2012, 18:37
Simplest option is a "teardrop turn" at the end of the "old" downwind & reposition. Which is fine if traffic permits, it's a straight reversal & you know where you are. But for a first/second solo stude, "never done that before" it could be a major issue. Making a level turn at 1000ft at the place they are used to pulling the revs down to the regulation 1500 & two stage of flaps, completely alien. The other thing I never liked was "Turn left at the building with the red doors, Left a bit round the Police station mast, Turn final just before the Golf clubhouse".
One day I'm gonna paint them doors blue & really bugger up the circuit.

Grob Queen
3rd Feb 2012, 19:37
Carlton Scroop Radio mast to the south west. We are often told to "report when abeam the mast" or "hold at mast". Very useful if coming home from that direction and doing a low level join or straight in to 08.

riverrock83
3rd Feb 2012, 19:59
IMHO an instructor should have their student ready to deal with whatever the likely scenarios are at their aerodrome before allowing them to go off solo. I soloed at a large (albeit pretty quiet) international airport. Pre-solo I knew how to orbit when downwind and plan my spacing in relation to 737s coming in. At other places, if I heard that there was a 747 coming in I might get a bit distracted! Turned out I didn't need to - but I was prepared.

The OP has logged 60 hours (before soloing), presumably a fair amount of that where he soloed. I suspect that wasn't the first time that he (with an instructor on board) needed to switch runways, and his instructor would have been confident that he could do it. If his instructor wasn't, there would / should have been some quick phone calls to ATC! However - mistakes can be made by anybody - I've learnt something in his post which is good.

The link that Mad Dog posted of the AAIB report shows what can happen when a student is given something they don't have experience in dealing with. I'm definitely glad of the "student" tag on first contact with ATC here. Maybe it should be adopted everywhere else?

Jan Olieslagers
3rd Feb 2012, 20:35
I am not sure who is in the wrong hereAfter some effort in deciphering your input, I can't see the point. You were in controlled airspace, weren't you? Isn't the tower controller in charge of her/his airspace, and responsible for all wright and all rong?

Except in case of blatant and proven error on your behalf - and I could find none in your story, though of course that is only one side of the medal - you were not in the wrong. So if anybody was in the wrong, it was the controller. Aren't controllers supposed to provide separation?

[[edit: the one blame you could get was to have reported "downwind" when it would have been "middle of downwind" - I learned that "downwind" with no further detail defaults to "beginning of downwind". But I find that only rarely practised, if ever.]]

mary meagher
3rd Feb 2012, 20:53
Albert Whitted Airport, St. Petersburg Florida. I was taking my dear departed husband for a jolly in a rented Warrior, to look at the lovely beaches. Set up for return to Runway 36. ATC told me that ahead in the circuit was not one but TWO experimental aircraft, flying in formation! I saw them all right, there were two of them, and they were flying so slowly I couldn't hang in the air behind them, so got permission to orbit for spacing.

And when I had made my orbit, the two flying bedsheets had completely vanished! I carried on down the approach, eyes on stalks, and of a sudden saw them, on my right, sashaying down the final approach for Runway 27!

Said I to the Tower, in an accusatory tone, "You've changed the runway!"

Said the Tower "We wondered when you would notice......!"

BackPacker
3rd Feb 2012, 21:18
After some effort in deciphering your input, I can't see the point. You were in controlled airspace, weren't you? Isn't the tower controller in charge of her/his airspace, and responsible for all wright and all rong?

Jan, may I kindly suggest you do a re-read of air law? In virtually all controlled airspace that pre-PPL solo students encounter, VFR traffic is responsible for its own separation. That includes adjusting the circuit to suit other traffic. The exception to this would probably be a class B CTR, which is very rare in Europe, and even then ATC will expect you to act sensibly and not cut in front of other traffic.

Turning base at the "usual" point (wherever that is) and thereby cutting off traffic in front is a big no-no, both in controlled and uncontrolled airspace.

Option one - Continue further downwind before turning base. yep, I can see thats a good option. however, to play devils advocate, there is a danger of getting lost, especially for a second solo with presumably little knowledge of local area and none of nav. This would be the same if one was to fly away from the safety of "home" and the cct at this stage...how would you cope if you had not been taught PFLS (ok, so EFATOs probably have been taught by that stage). This course of action surely puts more stress on we Studes?

If there's just one aircraft ahead, surely you don't plan on extending downwind to outside the ATZ, or turn it into a cross-country? Anyway, there's always the option of orbiting on downwind (turn away from the runway please, so orbit over right with a left hand circuit) if significant spacing is required. Typically due to an IFR straight-in approach on final.

Another option is for the early solos at least not to go solo when the cct is busy or when ATC Is operating.

[My bold]

Seriously? You're not scared of ATC, are you? It's definitely something you have to get used to, but they are honestly there to help you, not to be a nuisance or danger to aircraft.

On the other hand, if you only flew with an instructor outside operating hours and never experienced ATC during your dual flights, your instructor should never have let you solo when ATC was operating.

Jan Olieslagers
3rd Feb 2012, 21:27
Backpacker, my apologies if I was wrong, or have made incorrect assumptions about O/P's environment. Round here, controlled a/d's are all in class C, and I do seem to remember that this means ALL traffic is controlled and hence separated. But I might well be wrong, as I am not supposed to enter controlled airspace anyway I can't claim much authority on the subject.
[[edit: checked my old course notes and must admit I got it wrong. Even in class C, VFR traffic are separated from IFR traffic but not from other VFR traffic; they do receive traffic information and can request traffic avoidance advice. Apologies!]]

Needless to say I heartily agree with all your other points.

Vizsla
3rd Feb 2012, 21:29
It was or still is customary in the Uk for the instructor to go to the tower during the first solo or at least have a hand held to monitor the flight.
In this case he should have intervened with ATC to get his pupil down safely

BackPacker
3rd Feb 2012, 21:37
Round here, controlled a/d's are all in class C, and I do seem to remember that this means ALL traffic is controlled and hence separated.

My home base is EHRD, which is class C. Yes, it is controlled in the sense that we need clearance for everything we want to do. That also means that ATC will inform us of the landing order once we get in the circuit. But once we've gotten our assigned number it's up to us to maintain proper separation so that number 2 lands when number 1 just vacates the runway. Ideally, that is. By default, ATC doesn't call you for the base turn or any other turn in the circuit.

Exceptions to this are if you can't see the traffic but ATC can, or if ATC wants to deviate from the 'standard' spacing for some reason: Either putting you very close behind the number 1 because he's a T&G anyway, or further behind because ATC is planning a departure in between.

What also complicates matters is that ATC sometimes uses three different circuit altitudes. If it's busy, aircraft that are doing training circuits are kept at 500', aircraft on the Mike arrival are kept at 1000' and aircraft at Romeo and Hotel arrivals are kept at 1500'. Obviously in that situation it's very hard to see other traffic, so ATC will tell you when to turn base, and when to descend. All in a days work. And great fun once you're used to it.

Jan Olieslagers
3rd Feb 2012, 21:44
Thanks for patiently explaining. It corresponds with much of my own observations at Antwerp EBAW, though they only have (and need) a single circuit altitude there.

BTW knowing what I now know, I would find 500' alarmingly low as a student in PPL training - but ignorance is of course bliss, and then there's always the instructor to sort things out if they go wrong, that's what instructors are for!

BackPacker
3rd Feb 2012, 21:48
Well, you need to remember that 500' MSL is actually 515' AGL at Rotterdam, so it's not too bad...:hmm:

mad_jock
3rd Feb 2012, 22:08
Jan you need to go and find out the difference between tower control and radar. Once tower is responsable for seperation the rules change.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/64/200890108ATSAirspaceClassificationV3.pdf

Here is the UK airspace classes VFR isn't seperated from VFR in class C.

And Vizsal there is no requiment for an instructor to be in the tower or have a hand held in the UK or for that matter to watch.

And to be honest why an instructor should take control away from a trained ATCO who has been trained for over two years to stop aircraft hitting each other I don't know certainly wasn't covered in my FIC.

Also having two people giving instructions on frequency is just going to add to the confusion.

I also suspect its illegal and you would be setting yourself up for a manslaughter charge if there was an accident.

Another point for students is that if your not feeling confident or want max protection don't tell a controller that your visual with anything. If you do that they have to visually seperate you from the tower and "control" you to deconflict. As soon as you declare visual the onus then comes to you to remain seperated. (Which is what Jan needs to read about)

And another report to make you think

http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/AAR%208-2010%20Cessna%20402C,%20G-EYES%20and%20Rand%20KR-2,%20G-BOLZ%2012-10.pdf

Jan Olieslagers
3rd Feb 2012, 22:14
Radar? What's radar got to do with it? Who mentioned radar anyway?

Jan Olieslagers
3rd Feb 2012, 22:16
Here is the UK airspace classes VFR isn't seperated from VFR in class C.

Nothing to do with the UK - only to do with my own admitted and corrected mistake.

mad_jock
3rd Feb 2012, 22:27
Well class C needs radar and if tower is seperating you there are different rules to when radar is seperating you even if you are IFR. If you say the wrong thing you can be completely on your tod.

For example if you request a visual approach IFR and you are given one. From then on they only have to pass traffic info and seperation is the pilots problem.

The are alot of folk out there who don't realise the rules that ATC actually run with. Personally I have never seen them written down in any pilot training, the only reason why I have a rough idea is multiple pints in the pub with ATCO's and 10 years experence and various bum clenchers.

Alot of pilots think they are seperated from other traffic when they actually arn't and its up to them to look out the window.

Gertrude the Wombat
3rd Feb 2012, 22:38
Anyway, there's always the option of orbiting on downwind
Not in the UK, in no case is this an option available to the pilot.

If there is ATC then they might ask you to do an orbit, but you don't decide to do one off your own bat - that's ATC's option, not the pilot's. (Unless of course ATC offer you the choice of orbiting or extending downwind, then it's the pilot's option.)

If there is no ATC then you can't do an orbit as you describe because this would involve illegal turns against the circuit direction.

BackPacker
3rd Feb 2012, 23:17
In controlled airspace you've got to obtain permission for everything. So that does include orbiting on downwind as well.

As far as orbiting on downwind in uncontrolled airspace is concerned, well, I don't know the exact legal status. It may indeed be illegal because of the turn direction - but that would suggest that orbiting towards the runway would be legal. Which sounds like a bad idea to me.

On the other hand there are not all that many uncontrolled airfields that regularly have 737s on a straight-in ILS approach.

Grob Queen
4th Feb 2012, 15:00
Quote:
Another option is for the early solos at least not to go solo when the cct is busy or when ATC Is operating.
[My bold]

Seriously? You're not scared of ATC, are you? It's definitely something you have to get used to, but they are honestly there to help you, not to be a nuisance or danger to aircraft.

On the other hand, if you only flew with an instructor outside operating hours and never experienced ATC during your dual flights, your instructor should never have let you solo when ATC was operating.

Backpacker,
You misunderstand me. I said EARLY SOLOS..!

Course i'm not "scared" of ATC!! And of course I am getting used to it. I have flown dual both within and outside ATC operating hours including during the RAF's working day when the circuit is VERY busy! I said that this was my FOURTH solo but first with ATC.

First three solos were when the airfield was closed, so that I could just concentrate on flying the aircraft and landing safely. My instructor knows my psyche and just wanted to ensure that I would not be thrown with ATC operating before sending me on solo under those conditions.

GQ

Mark1234
4th Feb 2012, 19:39
Some background info for the discussion - as it *seems* we're talking about moorabbin:

Firstly, it's been a few years since I flew there, so apologies if any of this is out of date, or time has corroded my memory! Being in suburbia, there are lots of houses, which can make spotting a/c below you a bit tricky. It's towered (class D), and used to be GAAP (which is an 'Australianism'), I believe that was changed due to review which happened after the aforementioned incident. Two sets of parallel runways, which were 17/35 (L/R) and 13/31 L/R last time I checked. The airfield is overlaid by the Melbourne CTR, the airfield zone is/was 3nm/2500ft. Typically circuits are conducted on the east side, and arrivals/departures on the west, with separate frequencies for each side. The overhead is rarely used, except when you want to arrive from the wrong side; normally I would arrange to route so as to enter the zone via a VRP on the side I wanted - that was fairly common. It's extremely busy, the tower are / were very good. Normal procedure (was) to report inbound at 1500/6miles at one of the VRPs', then as directed by the tower, usually descending to 1000 and arriving directly into the downwind, base, or long final - again dissimilar to the UK's penchant for overheads. Departures would climb above this level ASAP, and depart from the appropriate leg of the circuit for where they're going.

Given it's extremely busy and there's a lot of training, 'Airliner' circuits are not uncommon. You need to keep your wits about you, and know where the others are. I always found the tower really good at helping you slot in and queue jump where appropriate - e.g. offering / accommodating tight base/finals where the a/c ahead is departing the zone and such like, but that's not early solo stuff.

For the OP, I'd say that when you're told to 'follow', don't *ever* loose sight of the other a/c, and always aim behind their tail! If you can't find him, or do loose him, don't report where you are and hope - ask. I have no idea how many times I've asked MB tower for a steer on where to look for that traffic. Don't worry about where you're *supposed* to turn, that is entirely negotiable. I imagine that's now been imprinted pretty well (and I don't mean to be unkind).

My other comment is that ATC 'instructions' are to be followed in good time, and in a manner consistent with safe flying (or words to that effect), and not immediately, or inflexibly - I suspect the tower expected you to turn left behind the Cessna - i.e. you make a left in turn, not both go left immediately on instruction. WRT BackPacker's post, I'd also remind (everyone) that you are allowed to say no ('unable'), and even take initiative *then* tell ATC if you need to. Note the "if you need to". More appropriately to the OP, don't forget to ask the tower for help. Usually that stops things reaching the 'oh ****' stage.

With respect to the midair mentioned, rather different circumstances. There's a proper report here: http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/2486211/ao2008059.pdf

Apologies for the essay - I only intended to give some airfield background!