Flying in Scotland

[Swerve550]

Hi guys,

Where do people post PPL usually fly in Scotland? To make the question more specific, the prettiest places to fly to me would be over the Cairngorms, the central Highlands, the Great Glen etc. However, does flying in these areas not have the inherent risk of:

A. MoD flights caning through the mountains who you may end up repainting; and

B. General mountain flying being riskier than bimbling around south England (where i'm learning to fly).

Thanks in advance.

Swerve

[mad_jock]

there is a slight more risk in some ways but in others there is less risk.

More risk

Enviroment and lack of forced landing fieds in the highlands
Wx
Mountain flying
Mil aircraft low level

Less risk.

Alot less traffic
virtually no controlled airspace above Perth.
Scottish Info gives you a very personal service. (you getting your destination wx if you want it or not :-) )

The enviroment and the scenery more than outway the differences.

As for fast jets tanking round. There are a few but they are extremely low level so unless the yanks are about with thier girlie 1000ft agl low level flying you will be looking down on them. Its actually quite a nice flight going past Tain range watching the tonkas bombing. Tain range are a decent lot and arn't tight with the airspace if nothing is needing the range.

As for where folk go.

Orkney is well worth a trip
Oban Mull etc (don't worry about the thread runnning they don't eat none locals)

Barra, Benbecular, Fair Islies for the folk that don't mind flying over water.

Inverness, Dundee PIK hold nothing to worry about, GLA EDI and ABZ are a bit pricey but nothing impossible.

And for once I won't take the piss out of Fife its actually quite a pleasant little airport to visit.

[Unusual Attitude]

Hi guys,

Where do people post PPL usually fly in Scotland? To make the question more specific, the prettiest places to fly to me would be over the Cairngorms, the central Highlands, the Great Glen etc. However, does flying in these areas not have the inherent risk of:

A. MoD flights caning through the mountains who you may end up repainting; and

B. General mountain flying being riskier than bimbling around south England (where i'm learning to fly).

Thanks in advance.

Swerve


A = You get used to hearing things like "pop up traffic, 2 miles, high speed heading in your direction". Not much you can do other than turn all the lights on and try to make yourself as visable as possible. Mostly Monday to Firday nowadays and a good look at the NOTAMs will keep you clear of the worst of it.

B = Consider the met carefully. Will be bumpy on a windy day, consider the effects of the hills on local cloud formation, always be aware of your MSA. If your worried you can get to most of the nice places skirting around the edge of the hills. Oban and the Western Isles are stunning, Great Glen & Moray Firth are very nice. Wick and further up are....interesting (The locals I mean!).
Perth is one of the nicest GA airfields around, Aberdeen is definately not...well to GA anyway. Ben Nevis is cracking....here's a video taken a few years ago:-

Ben Nevis 1 - YouTube

Basically plenty to see and enjoy! Scotland has by far the best scenery in the UK but also some of the most changeable weather and hostile terrain.

Regards

UA

[dont overfil]

Scotland is one of the best countries in the world to fly. The scenery, the destinations and the uncrowded skies are hard to beat.

The military are seldom an issue as they are usually 250ft or less outside the exercise areas.

Flying in mountains is a skill that is often covered to some extent in the PPL in Scotland. The weather that forms over them is the biggest risk but the good news is that they can help with navigation. On a good day you can see both coasts from 6000ft. In some parts of England you can't even fly at that altitude!

And then there are the great guys at Scottish Information who can give you a very personalised service.

Get out there and enjoy it. Fabulous destinations like Glenforsa, Plockton, Oban, Kirkwall and a mass of smaller grass strips.

You can even fly seaplanes in Scotland. You need to be related to the Queen to do that in England.

Go on go on go on go on.

D.O.

[Swerve550]

Thanks for the replies guys. As a Scotsman i'd love nothing more than to be flying over the Highlands. And i agree that navigation would be easier as topography has always served me well even on the hills.

UA: That video is class. I dread to think of the thermals that accumulate from the westerly's coming over Ben Nevis!

Has anyone experienced the beach landing at Barra? May be a silly question but is there any form of differences training required to land on a beach?!

Swerve

[abgd]

Highland aviation at Inverness do a beach landing course and also a mountain flying course intended for more experienced pilots. I believe it's the only place in the UK that does beach landing courses.

I just flew down the side of Hoy with my girlfriend and an instructor. 350 metre cliffs with waterfalls down the sides; seas raging below... Hard to beat. Also a fan of the oil rigs near Invergordon and the castle at Lochindorb. I'd personally tend to fly down the coast, which avoids most of the military airspace (which often isn't in use), and which means that cloud at 2000 feet is much less of an issue.

[mad_jock]

Nah its a bit different and alot lumpier than you would expect.

You have to make sure you keep moving even during power checks otherwise the vortex off the prop digs a hole that your nose wheel will drop into.

T/O is a bit sticky depending how close you are to the tide coming in. The surface tension sucks the wheels down which can cause a bit of a bum clincher.

And then you have the task of getting all the sand and salt off the machine when you get back.

Jump on the EZY for a weekend to Inverness and do a few hours you have everything scenery you could need within 20 mins of the airport.

[dont overfil]

No special skills needed to land on sand. There are usually enough features to help with height judgement in absence of edge markers. I've not done it at Barra but have at Sollas.

Of course you do have to factor tides into your flight planning.

D.O.

[Maoraigh1]

Uisgebeathamadadhrua (http://www.youtube.com/user/Uisgebeathamadadhrua) on Youtube
I've put videos of landing at several Scottish airfields, including Barra beach, Benbecula, Broadford, Inverness, Longside, Oban, Stornoway and Wick, and Sollas beach, Dornoch, Easter, Insch, Kingsmuir, and Knockbain strips. Also of flying in the hills.

[thing]

Not flown in Scotland but what's the score on weekdays with the big block of red on the map to the West, the Highlands restricted area.? Doesn't that put a crimp on the flying in that area?

[fisbangwollop]

Mad Jock..Scottish Info gives you a very personal service. (you getting your destination wx if you want it or not :-) )

Just trying my best to take care of you!! :-)

[PH-UKU]

HRA - generally only Mon-Thurs 1500-2200 - can be a pain, but there is a lot of airspace to investigate before you need to enter it.

I'll add in video of landing ..... on Loch Eck :E

[fisbangwollop]

Thing.....Not flown in Scotland but what's the score on weekdays with the big block of red on the map to the West, the Highlands restricted area.? Doesn't that put a crimp on the flying in that area?

Its active up to 5000ft from 1400-2200( Summer) 1500-2300 (Winter) Monday-Thursday. That said you can book in through the Mill Low Flying cell if you wish, check out the Info in UKAIP........Its there so the Mil can go blind flying at 250ft AGL....their systems know where the lumps of granite are but not the little Jodel tootling around at 1500ft. :cool::cool::cool:

[thing]

I see, thanks for that. I've got a long term plan to do the western islands at some point.

[hhobbit]

I loved Plockton last year...
https://picasaweb.google.com/115537970273790445050/20110428JScotlandSpring2011

[Swerve550]

PH-UKU: I was sitting having lunch at the restaurant on Loch Venachar a few years back when G-DRAM came in to land.

Was pretty swish!

[maxred]

Nice pics hhobbit, but none of your aeroplane:{

[Maoraigh1]

The restricted area is no problem - it's hours are as stated by FBW. It is essential to read the Notams, however, for ground attack and high level parachute areas, and occasional rescue searches. Small areas, but essential to avoid. (The little Jodel stays out of the HRA during it's active hours, and away from temporary notamed areas, FBW.)

[dont overfil]

Maoraigh1
You should start your own video guide to Scotland with that lot.
D.O.

[140KIAS]

Done Barra and Sollas (with Dont Overfill). Nothing too different about Barra, just remember to wait until the tide goes out http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/icon25.gif

According to the Fireman there the beach at Barra is like concrete and you could drive a 40 ton truck across it. The only slight challenge is indentifying what counts for the notional runways. There are poles at either end to help lining up but not easy to see.

Other than that my advice would be to head west. Coll and Colonsay are fabulous. As is Glenforsa, Plockton and Oban.

Barra Beach Landing - YouTube (http://youtu.be/WGxze77tn1g)

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've flown around the Hebrides several times. It remains, in my fairly experienced viewpoint, the best light aeroplane flying in the world.

There are no islands, or airfields, I'd not happily visit or revisit. Occasionally you'll get stranded somewhere for a few days by the weather - go prepared for it, and you'll enjoy that as much as the flying.

Southern central Scotland is pleasant enough to fly through,although no more or less special than much of England.

Eastern Scotland has a few nice airfields, and some quite spectacular coastline to see from the air.

I've not flown myself to the north yet. I've visited Orkney by other means however, and suspect that the flying is as good as the Hebrides.


Talk on the radio, be careful with your nav, don't trust the wind forecasts, think ahead for your fuel, always squawk, never descend below 2000ft agl (or above the nearby peaks) except above an airfield, never be afraid to divert if the weather is getting nasty and you'll be fine and enjoy some of the finest flying in the world.

G

[Maoraigh1]

never descend below 2000ft agl (or above the nearby peaks) except above an airfield,
I'd say: Never fly above cloud over the mountains in a SE, (unless high enough to glide to coast/low ground), and never enter cloud. If above cloud, consider downdrafts if there is much wind at summit levels. Stay at least 600' below cloud.
Enjoy the scenery. Has anyone in daytime ever flown into a mountain without first flying into a cloud?

[Jan Olieslagers]

PH-UKU: I was sitting having lunch at the restaurant on Loch Venachar a few years back when G-DRAM came in to land. Hehe, being into folk music I had come across this video before, and been wondering whether the registration had been photoshopped - probably hard to do on a video? But obviously there was no need.

Surely the sights are great, and the tune is always good for a broad smile. Though I must admit there is little Scots about it. Bagpipes are all too ubiquitous, really nice would have been a bit of Moray Fiddle.

OT: should someone have the chords for that "Trip to Bangor", there is one place where I am unsure. This tune is not as trivial as it might seem to non-musicians.

[VMC-on-top]

Never fly above cloud over the mountains in a SE, (unless high enough to glide to coast/low ground), and never enter cloud. If above cloud, consider downdrafts if there is much wind at summit levels. Stay at least 600' below cloud.

I tried the below cloud option on a trip to Inverness once and got bounced around like a ping-pong ball (pre-IMCR days), so I'd say the advice should probably be never fly above cloud over the mountains unless the cloud base is at least above MSA.

Given the same conditions again today, I'd opt for the cleaner air above the clouds every time.

[Dan the weegie]

It's a question of situation :) this whole, never do this, never do that attitude isn't really helping anyone.

750ft above MSA is REALLY REALLY high up :)

[VMC-on-top]

Dan, I agree but I think that giving blanket advice like stay at least 600ft below the clouds is just plain wreckless - I think its more commonly known as letter-boxing - an ever lowering cloud base, rising terrain and potentially vicious winds in the Highlands - a recipe for disaster!

[Maoraigh1]

is just plain wreckless
Yes. And we want to keep it that way.
I assumed keeping a reasonable height above ground AND at least 600' below cloud. I said do not enter cloud. And that implies visibility that lets you see cloud in time to avoid it.
Flying below cloud you can predict the updraft and downdraft slopes, like glider pilots do.
Flying above cloud, and above the hills, this will be difficult. You could be sucked down into the cloud, and below the peaks, unless you are well above them. In the early 90s, a C177 with a PPl and the then CFI at Inverness was sucked down from 7000' or 7500' into 5000' cloud and into the Cairngorms, before an updraft threw it back up.
I can only recall one CFIT in the Highlands which might have been low level. All the others were at higher altitude.

[fisbangwollop]

A beautiful place to fly but also a hostile place for the unwary. :-(

The article talks of a Piper Apache but if memory serves me well I think it was a PA28 Cherokee.?

Pilot error blamed for Cairngorm plane crash | Highlands & Islands | STV News (http://news.stv.tv/scotland/highlands-islands/136691-pilot-error-blamed-for-cairngorm-plane-crash/)

[gasax]

Yes thishad a considerable thread on Pprune - it was an intended trans-Atlantic flight and the aircraft was either an Arrow or Cherokee 6 - so a much more capable Cherokee.

But this was flying in very poor weather and then going IMC into cumulus granite.

Flyingin the mountains is not difficult. Some caution is necessary but otherwise it is straight forward. Winds over 20 kts will make life very uncomfortable and if you hit the rotor off the back of a hill will roll over even heavy aircraft.

Stay VFR and be prudent with the wind and there are not particular problems. Learn how to land on steep hilsides and the number of landing spots increases very significantly. All you then need is some decent clothing so you can potentially walk out.

I do it most weekends and many of the warnings are of the 'here be dragons' ilk. Understand the weather and where the cloud will build and it is a tremendous place to fly.

[BabyBear]

Learn how to land on steep hilsides

How/where do you learn to do that then?

BB

[Maoraigh1]

Search these AAIB refs. One low level, but poor vis and very low cloud. Several high but not high enough, entering cloud. One definite downdraft, two others possible downdrafts.
EW/G2001/01/17 . EW/C2000/12/6. EW/C92/4/1. EW/C/2008/04/01. EW/C1088. EW/C92/8/4. EW/G2005/05/26. EW/C97/12/4