Air France Cancels Collective Labor Agreements

[76-er]

Dutch pilot union VNV-Dalpa is reporting that AF has cancelled all collective labor agreements as of may next year. Could not find any conformation about this in the press, anyone else with more info?

[wiggy]

Well the CGT Air France have nothing about it on their website yet: News Air France (http://www.cgtairfrance.com/index.php/news-air-france)

As you may know next week's planned strikes are in protest at the imposition of minimum service standards ....on strike days :bored:.

[GerardC]

SESSION EXTRAORDINAIRE DU CCE AIR FRANCE
VENDREDI 10 FEVRIER 2012
SALLE MAX HYMANS SIEGE- 9 h 30

Points inscrits de plein droit par le Président du Comité à l'ordre du jour
Conformément aux dispositions de L. 2327-14 du Code du Travail, les points suivants ont été fixés de plein droit à l'ordre du jour de la présente réunion du CCE:
Point 1:
Information sur le projet de reconstruction d'un nouveau cadre conventionnel et de:
Dénonciation partielle de la convention d'entreprise commune
o Titre 4, Chapitres 2 et 3
o Titre 7, Chapitres 1, 2, 3 et 4
Dénonciation partielle de la convention d'entreprise du Personnel Sol
o Titre 2, Chapitres 1 et 3
o Titre 3, Chapitre 2
o Titre 4, Chapitres 1 et 2
Dénonciation totale des conventions d'entreprise du Personnel Navigant Commercial et du Personnel Navigant Technique
Point 2:
Information sur le projet de reconstruction d'un nouveau cadre conventionnel et de
dénonciation d'accords d'entreprìse et d'établissement (selon les listes jointes) :
Personnel Sol
Accord Pour un Développement Partagé (12 janvier APDP 1999) et ses 4 avenants
26 accords d'étabIìssement ARTT selon liste 1 annexée et leurs avenants ultérieurs
Personnels Navigants
Personnels Navigants Commerciaux : accords selon liste 2 annexée
Personnels Navigants Techniques : accords selon liste 3 annexée
Point 3:
Information sur le projet de dénonciation de l'usage suivant : Remboursement aux
Personnels Navigants des indemnités kilométriques liées au transport domicile/lieu
de travail sur la base du taux appliqué aux indemnités kilométriques de déplacement service.
Le Président du CCE
Jean-Claude CROS

Annexe 3 Personnel Navigant Technique
16 mars 1971 et 23 juin 1971: Procès-verbal d'accord sur les principes du protocole relatif au PNT des Compagnies AF-IT-UTA
26 avril 1974: Procès-verbal de la commission de conciliation sur les principes devant déterminer les conditions d'utilisation du personnel navigant dans la région parisienne
05 décembre 1974: Protocole sur les conditions de travail et de rémunération du PNT affecté aux Caraïbes
05 janvier 1976: Accord relatif à la fonction pilotage sur les vols longue distance du réseau LC
22 décembre 1977: Procès verbal d'accord relatif aux congés
06 janvier 1978: Accord relatif à l'interprétation des dispositions réglementaires et contractuelles concernant l'attribution des temps d'arrêts et des repos
20 janvier 1978: PV relatif à la durée des congés du PNT
11 janvier 1979: Accord relatif au régime de travail et à la rémunération des instructeurs pilotes et des instructeurs mécaniciens navigants affectés au centre d'instruction du PNT
20 novembre 1979 et 12 février 1982: Avenant à |'accord du 05.12.1974 (Caraïbes)
22 décembre 1982: Constat de négociation portant sur la durée du travail
30 août 1983: Avenant à l'accord du 5 janvier 1976 relatif à la fonction pilotage sur les vols longue distance du réseau long courrier
24 mai 1984: Avenant à |'accord du 5.12.74 sur les conditions de travail et de rémunération du PNT affecté à la délégation générale caraïbes
9 août 1985: Constat de fin de négociations concernant |'interprétation des articles D422-11-12 du CAC et des modalités d'app|ication de certaines dispositions du PV du 16/03/1971
31 mai 1989: Protocole d'accord concernant les conditions de travail et de rémunération des PNT affectés sur moyen-courrier
13 décembre 1990: Protocole d'accord relatif aux contrats de qualification PNT
17 avril 1991: Avenant au protocole d'accord contrats de qualification PNT du 13/12/1990
02 septembre 1992: Protocole d'accord portant définition des conditions d'emploi du PNT en équipage à 2 sur avions long-courriers
1'" novembre 1993: Protocole Instructeurs IAPL
08 mars 1996: Accord pour la mise en oeuvre à titre expérimental des règles d'utilisation du PNT
25 octobre 1996: Procès verbal relatif aux comités d'hébergement
20 mars 1997: Règles utilisation LC et MC
25 novembre 1997: Adaptation des règles d'utilisation
22 novembre 1999: Protocole Instructeurs et Contrôleurs (Annexes : lettres DP.GU et 00.059/CM)
07 janvier 2000: Protocole d'accord contrats de qualification PNT
10 avril 2000: Protocole d'accord relatif aux règles de gestion applicables aux cadets titulaires de contrats de qualification
10 avril 2000: Protocole d'accord relatif aux règles de gestion applicables aux stagiaires pilotes cadets
1e' février 2001: Avenant au protocole d'accord contrats de qualification PNT du 07 janvier 2000
8 mars 2001: Protocole d'accord relatif à |'introduction de dans la flotte Air France dans le cadre d'une biqualification A340/A330.
21 mars 2001: Protocole d'accord d'aménagement et de réduction du temps de travail des pilotes
25 mars 2001: Procès verbal relatif aux comités d'hébergement
18 juin 2001: Protocole Instructeur Contrôleur Pilote
26 octobre 2001: Avenant au protocole d'accord contrats de qualification PNT du O7 janvier 2000
21 décembre 2001: Accord Intermédiaire
30 avril 2002: Protocole d'accord sur les modalités d'app|ication du passage en rémunération des heures créditées
06 février 2003: Protocole d'accord relatif aux règles de rémunération applicables aux PNT affectés aux Antilles
18 juin 2003: Accord Collectif PNT 2003-2005 (pour les dispositions à durée indéterminée)
09 juin 2004: Avenant à l'accord collectif PNT 2003-2005
21 décembre 2004: Accord d'ajustement des règles de rémunération applicables aux PNT affectés aux Antilles
15 novembre 2005: Protocole d'accord relatif à la qualification A330/A340
05 mai 2006: Accord PNT 2006 (pour les dispositions à durée indéterminée)
23 juillet 2007: Plan de partage de la performance
23 juillet 2010: Accord relatif au traitement mensuel fixe des pilotes cadets
You know What ?
This means WAR.

[tomkins]

Well it had to happen,AF FC and CC have been living on borrowed time for ages.

[poitiers]

just by seeing this entire list of so called "agreements" you can find a reason for denouncing everything.
The idea is to reset all this mess, to built something new , to transform!

[tomkins]

To become competative.

[captplaystation]

Trouble at mill. . . had to happen I guess, if you look at the shyte Sarko failed to stop Le France getting into.
Still, in the interests of fairness, he did have some vaguely good reforming ideas,( & did take over the reins at a rather innoportune moment in the worlds economy calendar) but was also quite probably in the worst country to espouse them.
God knows why they voted for him, they sure as Hell won't a 2nd time, not really their "tasse de the " was he ?

As always, all the best les Braves, you may in AF be Dinosaurs/Atlantic Barons in the BOAC mould, but at least, you are trying to preserve what little status/benefits this career had/barely has.

It will all end in tears, & I shall certainly not be booking AF as it comes to a head, sh1t WILL happen.

[tomkins]

As always, all the best les Braves, you may in AF be Dinosaurs/Atlantic Barons in the BOAC mould, but at least, you are trying to preserve what little status/benefits this career had/barely has.
Problem is that AF has been massively state funded until recent years,and you can understand that 'le fonction publique' is a 'benifice trop cher' in our times.

[captplaystation]

The problem, is that they, like Sabena/Alitalia/Olympic/ & later this week Malev . . . need I go on, do not want to see it that way, & neither would I.

Unfortunately, the Good Days are over, for them too. In supporting them, it is not a vain attempt to circumvent reality, merely to wish them luck in . . . preserving as much as they can, because you can be sure that the management & bean counters will be hoping to live "the dream" a bit longer yet, so why the hell shouldn't they.
Me I think they should fight tooth & nail for every last €cent, because the ones trousering the savings won't be counting in centimes :=.

They may dump the Odd Airbus in the Atlantic , or at the end of a Canadian R/W, but their wish to be treated as SkyGods is on our side lest we forget ( "we" meaning pilots, & if you are not, I am quite possibly not singing from the same hymn sheet as you anyhow, so excuse me :rolleyes: )

[tomkins]

How would you like having 48 days off per annum,having to accept a 13th months salary at the end of december to pay for christmas prezzies,and to cap it all ,you get 7 days off consecutive per month on a full time contract if you work long haul.All that and your pay is better than if you are cc on an oldish ww contract.Subsidised company owned holiday destinations.....list goes on .....and on.....and on......just remains to ask oneself, what have the CEOs of AF been dreaming of over the last few years.....burying heads in the sand comes to mind.

[tomkins]

Am CC and wish just as much as you that a career in the air is a goal until retirement.....but lets be realistic:{

[captplaystation]

Personally, I hope they retain as much of it as possible.

Didn't we all come into this business with perceptions that it might (just) be, as you described ? for most of us it wasn't (not even close) not for that I begrudge the ones who invented & perpetrated that "myth" (but it wasn't)

Jealous ? Hell Yes , Invidious ? not for a moment !

[tomkins]

Personally, I hope they retain as much of it as possible.
Great....but how are they going to compete with MF...they are offering the same long haul service,no better no worse,....two cafes offering the same menu at 10 or 15 euros which will you chose.The french state and N.S cannot continue subsidising AF as they have been.It is going to be a kick up the b.s for all AF employees ,my mrs included.

[captplaystation]

Have to hope a bit of (misplaced) National Pride will keep the masses flocking their way.
More chance of it working with the Frogs than the rest of us Eh ? Good for them ! I am all for a bit of Nationalist Myopia every now & then, even if I am somewhat immunised, having "fled" these shores 20 yrs ago.

[tomkins]

Agree @200%,will just keep my fingers and toes ,ears and nasil hairs crossed!

[wiggy]

tomkins

having to accept a 13th months salary at the end of december to pay for christmas prezzies,

Not saying it's right or sustainable but AFAIK that's has very much been the norm for many workers in many industries in France, as has been the subsidised holiday deals/destinations, so it's not just an AF deal...anyone care to confirm/deny?

Must admit I agree with others, it does look like war and it will end in tears..........

[tomkins]

Wiggy ,worked for the best part of 20 years in france and to be sure any job connected with the state has had enormous benefits including subsidised holildays etc.....the 35 hour week has not helped productivity/competitivity,so it is not an enigma that the french economy is discovering that it is really in deep poo.The problem in france is that the unions are ALL powerful and that change will be even more painful than in the uk

[No RYR for me]

Word from above is that once the presidential elections are over the reorganisation of AF will start. Can say alot about Sarko but he is a smart cookie :cool:

The interesting thing is the discussion in France about the amount of union staff all the unions have and more interesting their `offices`.....

[australiancalou]

Well it seems that the efforts have to be supported by pilots and cabin crew only.
As usual in France first line workers are shot while office staff stay away from any efforts.
Airline means: Planes, crew, engineers, selling team.
Too many people eating on the beast and in the Air France's case these one are managers.
Super chief, chief, under chief and so on. The russian doll has to be emptied before shooting the ones making the cash.
A good and profitable airline has to be chief less and the working team reduced to the minimum.
KLM offices could take care of an enormous part of the administrative work for the group...

Tot ziens

[freightdoggiedog]

It never ceases to amaze me how the first to side with management and denounce the "unbelievable privileges" of pilots are always... other pilots. :ugh:

We slave away for years to learn our trade, risking our lives if in the military, working for poverty-wages if in general aviation, or else putting our entire family deeply in debt if paying our way through to line training. If we're lucky enough to make it to the fabled airline job, we then spend a large chunk of our lifetimes away from our families, missing out on countless weekends/festivities/get-togethers with friends, working at odd hours, skipping meals, dealing with whatever weather or tech problems the gods might throw at us, battling jet-lag and stress, and generally living a very unhealthy lifestyle, all on the understanding that you could lose everything you've fought for at the very next medical or check-ride.

Notwithstanding all their perks, I'm willing to bet AF's cockpit crew represent no more than 3% or so of the airline's total costs. And yet management always want more, more and more, even as their own bonuses grow ever bigger.

Even if you don't want to support your colleagues precisely because they are your fellow aviators, consider that even as AF management deal with their "excessive cost", your management is eying you and thinking the exact same thing. As soon as those haughty AF pilots are "cut down a notch", you're probably next in line.

Personally, I admire AF pilots for refusing to join the race to the bottom that this industry has become.

[Narrow Runway]

48 days paid holiday, 13 days off a month of which 7 can be consecutive, a bonus 13th month?

Poor blighters. I wouldn't work under such poor conditions.

[GerardC]

Originally posted by tomkins
Problem is that AF has been massively state funded until recent years...A one, and final, shot of 3 Bn euros in 1994.
Not a single penny since 1994 : BA, LH (and Brussels) watch closely.
Is that what you call "recent years".

[javierito]

I fully agree with you.
Lupus est homo homini, non homo, quom qualis sit non novit

[C212-100]

Those of you siding with AF bean-counters are poor jealous :mad: with absolut no idea about what life is all about. You should not be given the right to speak up.

Apart from the silly :mad: anyone with the minimum amount of brains believe that AF's problems reside in the FC and CC? They are a minority and not the only ones with those kind of perks.

Bonne chance pour les AF pilotes!!!

From a fellow pilot that believes that all those with decent T&C should fight hard to keep them. And should be supported!

[Telstar]

A one, and final, shot of 3 Bn euros in 1994.
Not a single penny since 1994 : BA, LH (and Brussels) watch closely.
Is that what you call "recent years".

Subsidy by wire transfer was no longer acceptable. More palatable methods had to be found to appease our masters in Brussels.

What about the thousands of tickets bough by the french government that are never used? A cynic might call that subsidy by other means.

Only 3 bn!? :ugh: How are other companies expected to compete with an airline that has it's historical debt wiped?

I'm all for employee rights. What has happened and continues to happen in a supposedly "level playing" that is Europe is just damn sickening.

[Denti]

Doesn't sound all that good to be honest. Just 13 months paid, thats absolutely normal, isn't it?, i know 14 months is normal in austria for example, 13 months in germany (except Lufty, they have 12 months plus average 2 months of profitability bonus). 48 days of payed vacation isn't bad, but not all that great either. 13 days off a month is nice, but again not really all that out of range for many other carriers.

We did a pretty thorough benchmark of pay and working condition packages in europe last year for our own negotiations. Air France didn't come up as top airline by quite a bit. Yes, they are certainly not bad off, and especially the FO pay is pretty good. But there are other airlines with quite a bit better conditions. Best overall package was actually Lufthansa and they are one of the most profitable legacy carriers in europe. Pilot conditions don't decide if an airline fails or not. It is bad management decisions that do that. Of course a way too high average number of employees can be one of those decisions.

Anyway, all the best to our french colleagues, hope you can retain as much as possible of your conditions. There are way too many muppets that are more than willing to buy themselves into jobs and destroying the industry in the process already, no reason to listen to those.

[busav8r]

48 days paid holiday, 13 days off a month of which 7 can be consecutive, a bonus 13th month?

Poor blighters. I wouldn't work under such poor conditions.


Like someone said before, I also admire AF pilots for refusing to join the race to the bottom that this industry has become.

I hope "Narrow Runway" don't get me wrong on this, but this kind of comment is pure jealously. It's only necessary to stay on pprune for a couple hours to understand how miserable this industry has become.

Bonne chance pour le AF pilots!!!

[tomkins]

Its not just the pilots (blinkered) its the whole company that is going to take a hit.Unfortunate....but welcome to the real world.

[GerardC]

Great post Denti.

[AF jockey]

Gentlemen, AF pilots are by no means opposed to change. That's a given. They are fully ready for major changes within their own ranks. Thing is you could turn the whole pilots population upside down, still that old lady AF would remain the same, i.e. HUGE, MASSIVE admin crowds, working as minimal time as they can, VERY unproductive ! Huge, monumental managerial population. Outstandingly costly as well !

Pilots have been crying out for change for the past 5 years. Leaner hierarchy, procedures and processes, the possibility to shift to Transavia are just examples. Plus they had to cope with retirement age limit jumping from 60 to 65 overnight. They signed for a new contract applying to low-cost type operations on remote bases in France ("Bases Province") implying 15% increase in productivity.

Today, they're offering French government and AF's new top management even more compensations, further negociations on cost reduction. Still our good old French way of managing is leading to..."no negociations at all" and "**** off" (Father Jack way). It's been many many moons since any relevant pilots strike really stuck aircraft on the ground (only strikes by some big-mouthed tiny unions now and then, barely noticeable...). So the government and AF's top management (working hand in hand) actually believe nobody will follow up on the call for strike. They really think Af's pilots are just a bunch of big swaggering babies who will walk back in for work, remaining deaf at their unions' call for war.

Of utmost frustration is how AF pilots are depicted as old barons that won't put up with mustard being taken away from their meal trays. That's unbareable as it is so far from truth !

One more thing and I'll cut the boring talking. 2 months into his "presidency", our new CEO received a nice bonus of 600,000 euros. Just 2 months ! Also, his army of top managers' salaries are supposed to be capped for 24 months. But that comes after constant, strong, if not massive, increases over the past few years, way beyond any other industry's standards. Our previous CEO had his board vote him a 46% increase in pay. Oh dear, aint' life beautiful !!!!

I could provide an endless list of crazy facts about the way this airline is "conducted" (or mis-conducted shoud I say). It would take me ages.

[AF jockey]

One more thing :

Tomkins, where do you work ? What's your position ?

[wiggy]

Gents

Despite the links earlier in this thread I can't find any definitive statement from the AF board saying they want to cancel anything..


Not saying they don't want to but......

[PHANTOM DUCK]

"Tomkins, where do you work ? What's your position ?"


Not much time for replying. Continuous shafting taking place...

[Mungo Man]

Doesn't sound all that good to be honest. Just 13 months paid, thats absolutely normal, isn't it?, i know 14 months is normal in austria for example, 13 months in germany (except Lufty, they have 12 months plus average 2 months of profitability bonus). 48 days of payed vacation isn't bad, but not all that great either. 13 days off a month is nice, but again not really all that out of range for many other carriers.

Not sure what planet you are on Denti: 12 months pay a year is the norm in the UK.
I get 29 days paid holiday a year. I get 8 or 9 days off a month. Can't think of any airlines in UK that make AF look mediocre.

[Denti]

Depends how you calculate that. If you can use off days as part of the whole vacation deal, for example in a fixed roster where you have to take only 5 days vacation to get 12 days off in a row (3 days off before, 5 days vacation, 4 days off afterwards) you do not need as many vacation days as in deals where you have to take every day you want free of work (apart from the usual off days) as vacation. Off days a month do vary, however in central europe a minimum of 10 to 11 seems the norm, some airlines have considerably more. Usually only a small part of those are requestable, somewhere between 3 and 8 days a month, the rest is planned by the company.

As i said, in central europe 13 months paid is about average, some countries require 14 months per law, in others it is just the usual amount of pay any worker receives. Personally i would prefer 12 months paid as it is better for tax reasons, however the same amount per year of course as with 13 months.

We have to accept though that work rules and regulations differ a great deal between countries, therefore some rules might sound lavish to us where they are absolutely normal in other countries within europe.

[AF jockey]

For your information, we do not use the ON/OFF system. Therefore, when are we off ?
- Holidays : 48 days a year
- RPC : Repos post courrier, (rest time following a day's work : roughly 10-11 hours minimum)
- Repos mensuel : 5 days a month on short/medium hauls, 7 days a month on long haul.

You then have several limitations such as not more than 6 days ON in a row on short/medium haul or at least 2 nights between 2 long haul rosters.

I don't think our rules are so far off industry's trend, are they ?

[ICING AOA]

Air France Cancels Collective Labor Agreements
Dutch pilot union VNV-Dalpa is reporting that AF has cancelled all collective labor agreements as of may next year. Could not find any conformation about this in the press, anyone else with more info?


Hi there,


You will find more details on rcocobis.com Connexion (http://www.rcocobis.com)

[Alpine Flyer]

Even if AF has more holidays than everyone else, it's our choice to band together and move upwards or let ourselves be dragged down further and further while applauding the demise of those still having better conditions than us.

While "still better than work" might still be true for FR and the other LCCs, letting pay and conditions slip further and further will leave us "non-glorified" bus drivers equivalents sooner or later.

(B)ALPA-bashing and self-optimizing strategies ignoring the grand perspective are not going to achieve this. If we don't look beyond our own career and our own airline, the profession is going to degrade further.

[poitiers]

to AF Jockey,

saying that AF rules are close to the other's is just unfair.

You only mention some rules and limitations, but what about the pay scale?

In Air France, a first officer on long haul flights is more paid than a CPT on medium haul.

In Air France, a pilot who doesn't want to work on a day he wasn't planned to can refuse.

In Air France, a pilot can refuse any change in his flight schedule.

I'm flying for Air France, I enjoy those rules, but i realize it can't just last anymore. Bureaucracy, heavy management process, number of useless employees are a reality, but a mean flight hour of 500hrs/pilot is also a reality.

Not to mention my salary.

[AF jockey]

Poitiers, you won't find me fighting for no changes at all. I'm not saying things need to remain as such until the end of times.

Regarding thos FOs making a better net salary than Medium haul CPTs, that is true with the 380s. But not so with the 340s and 744s. The 777s work such longer hours than 320 CPTs, it's only fair they're making slightly more in some cases.

As for the 550 hours/year, do we have to be blamed for this ? We would all love to fly more, to see our airline in a healthier state with new routes opening rather than a draw down on the entire program.

[poitiers]

so it fits you saying in some cases an FO on a long haul flight makes more than a CPT.

and at the same time dreaming of new routes etc

Of course the pilots are not the most to blame, but once again we are part of the problem, and we definitely don't want to be part of the solution.

We needed more than a year to agree for a change in work conditions so as to organize based crew in Marseille. Did you see the number of pages of this simple agreement acting that pilots are going to work 12 days a month, and be paid 11000 euros net salary (tax on revenue are then to be paid)?

We make everything complicated, all described, long to be decided. And this is a pilot part...

[GerardC]

@ wiggy : Air France dénonce tous les accords collectifs - UNAC (http://www.unac.asso.fr/mon-unac/depeches/air-france-denonce-tous-les-accords-collectifs,1594.php)

Air France: vaste remise à plat des accords d&039;entreprise, CCE le 10 février - Air&Cosmos (http://www.air-cosmos.com/news/depeches-afp/air-france-vaste-remise-a-plat-des-accords-d039entreprise-cce-le-10-fevrier.html)



@ Mungo man :
12 months pay a year is the norm in the UK.It's not on the continent.

What really matters is what you earn on a yearly basis, right ?

What is the difference between earning, say : 1300 X 12 or 1200 X 13 ?

[captplaystation]

I don't think too many of us outside AF would mind negotiations dragging on for a year ,if the end result was 11000€ net ,flying short haul 12 days a month, from a MRS base :D

Methinks you protest too much, me I would be :oh: & crossing my fingers it lasted for a few more years.

As has been said, the companies problems are largely attributable to the "dead wood",including (certainly in the past) nieces/cousins etc of politicians & other high flyers :yuk: , employed as station managers in non-existant bases, & the like, or has that all been "tidied up" finally ?

Pilots/CC remuneration is but a drop in the ocean ,in comparison to the magnums of champagne poured down the drain by the "managers".

[AF jockey]

Poitiers,

Re FOs salaries vs CPT salaries : yes some long haul FOs do make more money than some Short/medium haul CPTs. Now that can be easily explained. If a long haul FO works 85 hours a month of which 70% account for night time flying, I'm not shocked (s)he's going to make more money than a Short haul CPT flying 70 hours, 90% of which are day time. Get the two on the same pattern (i.e. same number of hours and same proportions day/night), the CPTs will make more than the FOs.

I totally agree we should adapt several rules to reality. Once again, I do believe we should relieve the company from some part of the burden as we do bear some part of that burden.

Fair enough.

Now the way things are displayed at the moment is we, flight deck and CCs, are the one cause of the evil in this airline which is so completely untrue !!!

Not only is this unfair but it is counterproductive. It prevents the airline from taking the right path towards perennial and permanent recovery by distracting management away from THE real comparative DISadvantage : overheads.

Overheads are killing us. Overheads are not necessarily staff load. Not only, rather. That very first line on the income statement keeps us firmly anchored to the shore ground, whatever the amount of efforts we deliver towards cheaper operating staff. This is what "killed" Alcatel Lucent, for instance. And this is what low cost airlines and Delta Airlines don't have, or so minor it is not relevant.

And raiding crew T&Cs is a nice and comfy demeanor that keeps management in some sort of a dream. Very satisfying as well, as diminishing pilots' clout must be a wet dream for any top manager at Air France and any airline.

Yet, as our previous CEO underlined, we could save anywhere between 700 million and 1 billion euros just by transferring this load to Amsterdam and melting it into one single, centralized system working more efficiently and avoiding the heavy French social taxes. Why don't we do it ? This is what so many merging companies are seeking and achieving. Yet Air France won't move a single inch on this chapter. Ridiculous !!!

[poitiers]

at least we disagree on FO/CPT salary

And may i remind you that pilots are not the only population whose agreements have been put down.

[drfaust]

Ok gents I don't want to get in between an AF fistfight but, come on, isn't a long haul FO usually a very senior FO with loads of time in the company that will put him well up the salary scale? The same is the case with LH and with KLM, ofcourse there will be loads of senior FO's on long haul that might end up earning more than some CPT colleagues on SH due to seniority and specific working conditions.


How is that even comparable? Why should lowest basic CPT always be higher than highest basic FO? This way at least your gradual pay increase is insured whether or not there will be CPT positions to fill. Quite fair if you ask me.


And by the way do not forget, KLM pilots make alot of money. Probably one of the sweetest deals around at the moment, yet their company is in much better shape. I would guess it is exactly due to the reasons described by AF jock: overhead. Anyone that believes any different should have a good hard look at this industry.

A captain once told me that if we would go around with our pilots hats in the cabin asking for donations we would get paid alot more money than the company is ever prepared to give us. If this industry keeps going this way and we keep on thinking every strike is unjust and scandolous, we might have to.

[AF jockey]

Now the governement is ready to talk again. I hope we can get back on mature footings. Not that pilots won't yield any concessions but the crushing game instituted by both AF's management and the governement is being vigourously turned down. Pilots simply won't put up with the pressure eventhough they're fully ready for discussion and adaptation.

[No RYR for me]

Understand that the LH collective agreement also runs out this summer. Can anyone confirm this

[AF jockey]

Pressman, you have no idea how your assertion fits into the Air France frame !!!

[seat 0A]

My understanding of this last AF pilot strike, is that it was targeted at the government and not at management.
So everybody applauding the pilot's stand against management seems to miss the point here.
I wonder when ever a pilot group won something with a strike against a government? Seems a waist of money to me. Especially in the economic environment we live in right now.

[wiggy]

My understanding of this last AF pilot strike, is that it was targeted at the government and not at management.

If by that you mean last weeks strike then AFAIK the answer is yes; it was a strike protesting about a proposed change to the law relating to ..strikes.

(specifically the laws and rules relating to minimum service levels during industrial action).

[poitiers]

The result of this strike is a 80 million euros loss, nothing has changed in the text proposed by government.

what a result!

Alitalia has done this a couple of years before. Unions were proudly waving flags and handing papers at the entry of their operation center in Roma.

And what happened?

we are doing the same...

[seat 0A]

It's a disgrace to see the way the French unions handle this political issue.
Poitiers, you are absolutely right in your comparison with the Alitalia situation. What a waste of money! Makes me fear for the future of AF/KLM :{

[australiancalou]

French AF SNPL what a joke.:mad:
Moreover French AF chairman is ENA (National school of administration) graduated as most of the CAC40 CEOs.
ADMINISTRATION is the France's illness.
There's a whole bunch of hard and good workers in France but too many state employees.
And next to come the socialism back on lead of the country.
I am so sorry to say that France is dead and AF with.
Guys from KLM should put the pressure on to leave the group.
Don't blame all Frenchmen but all these office rats.
Don't be surprised to see a lot of French people looking for expatriate jobs in the very next future and these ones will probably be the best.