Initial A/C training @ SAS

[KADS]

Just out of curiousity, I was wondering if any of you SAS people out there might know the approx. ratio of new hire training regarding which type they end up on. Most people seem to end up on the 737 but surley there most be some initial MD training going on. Also does it matter what base you end up on, and in that case what about CPH?

Many thanks in advance.

[Hung start]

Most people do, as you say start out on the 737, but still some on the MD80. Last class I heard of was 8 on the Boeing and 2 on the MD. Now that might all change this coming summer and fall, when a lot of people will be going onto the new Airbuses. A lot of those will be coming from the MD, as most newhires have been assigned the 737, and therefore are "stuck" on that one for 3 years.

Base?? Well I´m danish, so I prefer CPH :) ..
Depends on where you would like to live!!
Operational differences; not many, but european flights out of CPH are somewhat shorter, something I like.. STO-MXP is to me the longhaul that I dread...
Salary a little different, in that currency exchange rates make (at THIS time) salary at CPH a little higher. (But then you pay higher taxes here)

[TowerDog]

Ouch, you boys over at SAS are locked-in for 3 years on type after ya hire on?

The US major I work for has no lock-in policy for new hires. Many a guy gets the F/E seat on the B-727, then after 2 weeks on the line, they bid for upgrade on same or different type. After upgrade ya are stuck in that seat for 12 months.

(Uh, slightly off subject, but hey, it may have general interest?)

Or it may not.... :)

What is the deal with the SAS Commuter folks, do they get a seat and a seniority number with SAS these days, or do they have to apply and take the exams, etc as the guys off the street?




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Men, this is no drill...

[Hung start]

Towerdog,

Yup, locked on type for 3 years. And fair enough too, if you ask me. What is 3 years in a 30+ year career. You´d still have time enough for 10 different types (almost) :)
Much more than I´d care to learn.... :)
No seriously, with the cost involved in typerating these days in mind, I see nothing wrong with a 3 year freeze. Do most pilots at your outfit change type more than once every 3 years??

Concerning SAS Commuter; yes, deal is that those hired at SC gets their number on the combined SAS/SC seniority list when hired. They also start earning "pay seniority" from the first day at SC, so that when/if they choose to move to SAS, they´ll start on payscale level 4. (They´re stuck for 4 years at SC).

Rgds, Hung start

[Unable]

KADS,

There's a chance you might end up in SAS Commuter. You should avoid this at all costs if you have a choice. In SC you will be stuck for at least four years with:
- Lower salary (a lot)
- More work (5/3 vs 5/4 in SAS Airline)
- Worthless pension
- Slow aircrafts

[Hung start]

Well, if you have a choice, of course I agree, go to SAS.

Just one little thing: Pension is not worthless at SAS Commuter.I don´t know where you got that from? (Same percentage as at SAS, but of course based on the somewhat lower salary at SC) I´ll supply some numbers if interested.
And what does speed have to do with this? Well OK, I know that it means a lot to some :)

If you have reasonable experience, then I wouldn´t worry TOO much, as they tend to send the lowest hour newhires to Commuter first.

[TowerDog]

Hung Start:

Yeah, it is a waste of training money and time to take a long course, just to change aircraft a month or two later.
I heard a price tag of $50,000 to get a new hire F/E on line. Probably includes everything including the interviews and salary, etc.

That is however the way the contract is written.

In this country many guys have no choice as to seat and base when coming aboard, yet to avoid commuting or get out of the side seat, guys bid other stuff ASAP.
Other guys again may like their position and base and stay there for 3 years or more just to get seniority in seat and more control over days off and such.

(You guys still don't have a selective bid system in SAS or in Europe in general???)

Bidding is great, very fair as everything is based on seniority, but then again date of hire becomes King and some folks talk about nothing else. (If they are senior.. :))

Aye, sorry for hi-jacking the topic again.
(Too lazy to start my own... :) )


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Men, this is no drill...

[Hung start]

Towerdog,

Another thing where we are behind. Selective bidding... We´ve been told for 2 or 3 years now, that "it´s almost ready".... And then not!!!

I see your point about FE´s, but we don´t have any 3 crew airplanes, so everybody gets to fly. That means, that most are happy enough with the thought of staying 3 years on type..

Let me say it this way, there are many other things that need to be improved here in SAS, before we get to getting rid of the "type freeze" :)

Hey, sun´s still shining in FLA.??
Was there last week on holiday. Loooved it, and got sunburned :)

[B-744]

Another fundamental difference is that in the US you are paid by the size of the airplane, so it does make a big difference whether you are on the MD80 or B747. Since SAS has a common jet salary and you automaticcaly get the base closest to where you live, then changing airplane type becomes mostly a matter of destinations.
Out here in Asia we don't have a choice. We fly what we are told to fly, so being able to change every 3 years just for the hell of it seems like a pretty good deal to me.

[KADS]

I appreciate all of your replys.
Hungstart - so what you're saying is due to alot MD people going to the Airbus shortly and if I theoretically would have a start date in October at 'Airline', I'd have a chance to get on the MD instead of the 73?

[Nick Figaretto]

KADS (and Hung Start),

I have to clarify on the SAS/SAS Commuter deal when applying for a job within SAS.

As of May 1997, SAS and SAS Commuter integrated their seniority lists, and as a result they also now have a common pilot recruitment programme. This means, that you cannot apply for a job specificly in SAS or SAS Commuter anymore. After passing the tests, you will be offered a job in SAS or SAS Commuter, depending on the needs of the two companies, and to a certain extent, based on your previous experience.

Ab-initios and "low timers" will preferably be employed in SAS Commuter, as it is a more "natural" step to go from a small twin aircraft to Fokker 50 or Q400 than to MD80/B737.

HOWEVER, SAS Commuter cannot only recruit "low timers," because this will create a large problem when SC needs captains. This means that some of the applicants will be offered a job in SC.

Of course you can turn the offer down. You will still be qualified for a job in SAS, but you'll have to wait for the next MD80/B737 course to come up. I know one guy who did this, and had to wait for 8 months for his course to start. As a result, he "lost" 250 places on the combined seniority list, which will mean a hell of a lot when it comes to aircraft and all other biddings the rest of his career and - most importantly - his captain candidate course may be postponed for years. (Depending on the situation in 10-15 years...)

After four years in SC, you are free to bid any aircraft type in the SAS system.

HOWEVER (again...) the number of pilots that SAS may recruit from SC, is limited to 14% of the total amount of pilots in SC (for the time being, 56-57 pilots each year). When yor four years are up, you will probably have 200-250 SC pilots in front of you on the combined seniority list, who are all going to SAS before you.

In addition the fulfillment of your bidding depends on SAS' needs. If SAS don't need pilots on their other A/C at that moment (say 5 or 6 years from now), you may stay in SC for a long time.

In other words - lots of pros, lots of cons, lots of "what have you"s. And God knows what SAS Commuter will look like in five to eight years.

Nick.

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"Pitching down the nose to take maximum advantage of the shape of this highly sophisticated airfoil..."

[Hung start]

Nick Figaretto,

Absolutely correct in everything you say....!


KADS, there you have it, much clearer than I could have said it..
As for MD versus B737; This is MY opinion. I haven´t actually talked to pilots about what they have bidded for, but common sense says that a lot more places will be available on the MD, when we get past the summer. Some "old" 737 pilots are free to move as well, but my qualified guess is, that you´ll see most Airbus seats taken up by MD pilots, and since we´ll have the same amount of MD´s in the next coming years, chances of going on the MD should improve. So yes, an october class start should give you a better chance of getting on the sleek and sexy one, than if starting today.

[TowerDog]

Uh, ya guys getting Airbuses these days?
Small or big 'uns?

How about the B-747s ya were leasing from Atlas a few years ago, do ya still fly 'em?

(Incidently I flew the ex-SAS 747s: After SK got read of them, Phillipine Airlines operated a couple for many years, then Tower Air got 'em. Did a free-lance ferry last May from Bangor to Tel-Aviv with the GE engine equipped one. It is now being converted to freighter at an Israeli shop for a cool $20 million. Then the new Southern Air will start flying it in a few weeks.)

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Men, this is no drill...

[Unable]

The pension is not worthless in SC if you plan to stay there for the rest of your career. If however you plan to move on to larger A/C's in SAS it is, for all practical purposes, worthless.

[Hung start]

Ok, see what you mean Unable.
What you say is, that after leaving SC, no more money will be paid into that account, and it won´t be regulated upwards?

Towerdog yes, Airbuses coming. 12 A321 with first delivery in oct. and, I believe, 17 (now I´m afraid I forgot) A330/A340. B767 to be phased out.

We flew ONE Atlas 747 about 2 years ago, but the geniouses :rolleyes: found out that it wasn´t profitable operating just one aircraft, so now they´re letting a Lufthansa MD11 take care of the cargo that can´t be taken in the 767 bellies...

[Unable]

Affirm, Hung Start.

[Danish Pilot]

Hung Start: I belive SAS had leased 2 747 to fly cargo, mainly out of GOT, with American crew, if I remember corret. Or am I wrong??? (diddn´t hear so much about that)

[Hung start]

Nope Danish Pilot, just one 747 freighter was leased, ..(and flown by SAS crew). Did Sharjah,Hong Kong, and JFK every week I believe..
Now, get it back, and lets have some more.. Everybody else make big dough on cargo. Why not SAS. The freight is there!!!

[This message has been edited by Hung start (edited 19 April 2001).]

[B-744]

There is no money in freight.......yeah, right!

[Hung start]

Oh, I think they know that there´s tonnes of money in freight, It was just too expensive to have only one (old) aircraft....Then they did the typical Scandinavian reasoning: got rid of the aircraft, instead of getting more of them :rolleyes: Never take any chances.

I know that the belly of the new Airbuses will increase cargo capacity by 50%, but considering SAS Cargo, how well they are doing, and how agressive their expansionplans are, why not have a cargofleet, like most larger airlines???

[Semper paratus]

--->Nick Figaretto
<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">When yor four years are up, you will probably have 200-250 SC pilots in front of you on the combined seniority list, who are all going to SAS before you</font>

Is it your number on the combined seniority list that is used when they decide who's next for transfer to SAS? I always thought it was the 'internal' SC seniority list that was used. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

---&gt;Hung start

<font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size="2">.... Airbuses coming. 12 A321 with first delivery in oct. and, I believe, 17 (now I´m afraid I forgot) A330/A340. B767 to be phased out.</font>

I believe the order now is for 12 A321-200, 3 A330-300 and 7 A340-300 (first delivery July 2001) with options for an additional 7 A330/340.

Pheeew, my first posting on pprune.

[Danish Pilot]

Hung Start: Ok, thanks. Couldn´t remember so much on that side. Yep, the freight is there, much of it in the belly of your MD80 :) I belive Lufthansa had more, shall we say "know how" on the freight business and started flying out GOT using their cargofleet (MD11..??) And as said earlyer, one aircraft is not enough. If SAS should have gotten a pice of that market, they should (it is allways easy to say what they should have done) have startet much sooner. Korean Air Cargo, started flying Seoul-CPH on DC10's, 14 days later it was MD11, and about 1-2 later it was 747. SIA have their routes CPH- Shanghai useing 744. And it is ALLWAYS full...!!

[Nick Figaretto]

Semper paratus:

The combined seniority list is used when bidding from SC to SAS. The "old" SC seniority list is only used for strictly inside purposes, ex. aircraft bidding within SC, base biddings, etc. Even FC courses within SC is following the combined seniority list, so that F/Os from SAS that bid FC in SC get their right seniority.

But either way: When you have been in SC for four years, and SAS takes say 56 pilots from SC each year, you would still have about the same number of SC pilots in front of you, no matter which seniority list was being used.

Nick

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"Pitching down the nose to take maximum advantage of the shape of this highly sophisticated airfoil..."

[KADS]

Once again, thanks for taking the time to reply.
Well, in that case, keeping my fingers crossed, I look forward to that sleek sexy one.... :)
Hung, I can imagine that's the one you're on. Are you on the 80 or 90, or is it a same rating?

[Hung start]

KADS,

I´m on both. Everybody who gets rated on the MD80, will also see MD90 in their certificate, but internal SAS rules say, that you´ll have to fly the MD80 for (I believe) 1 year, before you can check on on the MD90. You bid (or antibid) the MD90, and if you go on it, it´s a 2 day transitioncourse. Not THAT many fly it, as we´ve only got 8. (Let´s hope for more)

Have you got any date yet, or just any idea of when we could see you there..?



[This message has been edited by Hung start (edited 20 April 2001).]

[KADS]

Well Hung, if everything goes according to plans, I'll have the pleasure of joining in the end of October, based in CPH. Am awaiting my results from the medical examination which I understand is the final step.
BTW, are you not moving over to the 'Bus then, like you say most of the MD folks seem to be doing?
About getting more MD90's, I read somewhere that SAS were in negotiation with a US major over an additional 6 or 7 but they failed to secure the deal. So SAS is in fact looking for more then or what is the official say on that? I thought all the MD:s would be phased out with 'Buses and 73:s taking their place?

[This message has been edited by KADS (edited 22 April 2001).]

[Hung start]

KADS,

I didn´t mean to say that most MD pilots are moving over, just that many will. But there´s still an awful lot of people on that type. (The MD80/90 group of pilots, just at CPH base, is larger than at all of Maersk Air.
Many choose to stay, since it is a very good airplane to fly, and probably with the most varied route structure of any aircraft in our part of the world.

In the (maybe naive??) thinking that we could fly combined long/shorthaul, I bid the Airbus too. But now, I´m not really in a hurry to move, since I think that this "combined flying" thing maynot materialize. For several reasons!
But we´ll see. When I go, I don´t know. Beginning of next year maybe. Thats the thing in SAS too. You´ll probably just find out when they put the course start date in your "future schedule"!!

oh, the MD´s are not meant to be phased out in the near future. Airbus´es are a pure expansion, not to replace anything. And 737 are replacing DC9 and F28. Sure, they are also taking over some MD routes, but we now have more than 50 737´s, and no MD´s have (or are) going out. (except the old, leased DC9-80 from Swissair)
Good luck with the medical, hope to see you in oct. then!!

[This message has been edited by Hung start (edited 23 April 2001).]

[Flathatter]

KADS, just so you know: you don´t bid for your base, you get based in the country you get hired. Once there you´re stuck, with virtually no chance of transferring. However, it has little or no influence on other bid matters.

For some reason at this airline nobody tells you anything when you´re a newhire.

[KADS]

Flathatter, just as a matter of discussion, when I went through the interview session which was last Oct, I did that in Stockholm, being Swedish. I was questioned which base I'd prefer if I'd be hired and responded CPH. I was then told that I ought to be really certain on which base I choose because you can only change ONCE. At least that's what I was told then. Maybe that has changed. I'm very happy with my choice anyway. :)

Hung, Interesting that you mention that combined short/long haul for Airbus pilots, 'cause at the interviews we were told that that's how it was going to be. But that has changed now you're saying? And how is the bidding when it comes to the bus. Do you bid A340/A330 as one bid or is it going to be differentiated as flying one or the other? And who is going to be flying the SAS/BMI A330 going to New York? Is it SAS F/O:s with that BMI Skipper or is SAS skippers flying in the RHS for A/C induction? (A little off the subject I know but it's just interesting to get an insight)
The whole way that BMI deal works is very curious... I heard that the start of that may be slightly delayed.
Anyway, great to hear that the MD fleet will remain, and thanks for all of your interesting answers....

[This message has been edited by KADS (edited 23 April 2001).]

[Hung start]

KADS,

Yes, combined short/long is still the intention. But the A340/330 (of which only 10 are ordered and 7 options, I believe) already have assigned co-pilots + some co-pilots that will start out as relief pilots. Now, with so few airplanes, and SAS and authorities not knowing yet, if a short/longhaul pilot will need 4 PFT´s (sorry, OPC/PC) a year, will it be worth the trouble?????? And if they decide to go for it, how many co-pilots will actually get the chance, considering the relatively few legs, that a longhaul airplane flies???
I know that it is still the intention, but I´d like to see it before I believe it. Many think along these lines.

If you´d like the "combined thing" as a co-pilot, you have to bid: FO A321, and then intention is that later on, (min. 1 year on A321), you should be checked out as relief on the biggies!! Pilots bidding A340/330, are bidding co-pilot positions on those, and will not be eligable for combined flying. Just the longhaul stuff.

Last I heard was, that BMI A330 is starting in may, and that the Capt. is BMI, and rest of crew,incl. cabin crew, is SAS.. Flying on BMI SOP´s.
So SAS pilots have placed bid´s for the RHS only, but some SAS skippers have bid that seat as well, to get some experience!!!!!
Again, seniority rules!!!

[dick badcock]

Hung,

Sorry to reply to something you wrote a while back, but concerning that B747 cargo ops out of GOT, I heard it was sold to LH Cargo (so they are still doing it) I have also seen a polar air cargo (or was it Atlas) B747 working out of GOT for Finnair.

As far as the value of cargo, my airline sent an A330 from Shannon to JFK the other day, no pax, only cargo [ad hoc], and they made more money on that flight than they would have if it was filled with 340 pax!

The word I have on CCQ is that initially it seems like a good idea, but that more and more airlines are going away from it. You'd think that they'd achieve more flexibility on the roster, but as far as I understand it is more expensive. Plus you need to do 4 PC's (PFT's) a year.

Midland is a funny story. Wonder who is really in charge on that A330 (SK901/SK902)? To make things a little easier, they are using one of their Star Alliance painted A330s, so to Joe Blow the pax, he won't tell a difference. Heard the SK B767 crews were delighted though, 901/902 is the worst duty on their roster!

[KADS]

Don't know about flight deck but I know for sure that it's a great deal for the cabin crew....

[Hung start]

Dick,

LH are, as far as I understand, wet leased to do do the cargo run out of GOT, that SAS did with a dry leased Atlas 747..

The BM story, well I´d think that operating under BM SOP´s, the BM captain is in charge, as any SAS captain would be on his ship. Now, the BM captain would of course deal with SAS rules on the ground; gatepersonel, loadcrew, redcaps, etc. and these guys will take control away from any captain if he´s not really careful :) :)
No no, only joking!!