Flying IFR in IMC with a Single Engine Piston

[manucordier]

Hi,

Could you please tell me a bit about your experience while flying IFR in IMC with a light Single Engine Piston. I'd like to make a private IFR flight with 2 friends, in Europe, of about 500 Nm, possibly in IMC.

Here come my questions :

- Do you take a VFR map along just in case your VOR/ADF/DME or glasscockpit fails ? Or you trust your IFR certified airplane and just take an IFR map with you ?

- I had an instructor who imposed the following minima for single engine piston IFR flight in his school :

* Minimum Visibility for take off = minimum Vis for Landing x 1,5 (and no inferior to 1500meters)

* Minimum Ceiling for take off = minimum ceiling for landing x 2 (and no lower than 500 feet).

What would you do for a private IFR flight ? Do you find it too conservative ? Or not safe enough ?

Thanks a lot for your feedback.

Regards.

[what next]

Hello!

- Do you take a VFR map along just in case your VOR/ADF/DME or glasscockpit fails ? Or you trust your IFR certified airplane and just take an IFR map with you ?The latter. Anyway, one is always in contact with an ATC unit (and I always take a handheld transceiver with me) who can provide you with vectors. I only have a VFR chart when I fly to VFR only airfields (also with Y and Z flightplans of course).

I had an instructor who imposed the following minima for single engine piston IFR flight in his school : ...

The school where I instruct IFR has very similar minima, which I observe when instructing. When flying privately, I'm happy with the legal CAT I minima (550m/200ft).
BUT I strictly refuse to fly SEP IFR with a cloudbase of less than 1000ft anywhere along the way. I have had three engine failures so far (luckily all in twins) and the next one is waiting to happen. 1000ft of cloudbase give you at least some chance to perform a survivable forced landing. And I do not fly SE at night any more.

[mad_jock]

you would be better in the Private flying forum. Some of the pilots down there do that sort of trip quite often.


Wannbie commercials in general will never fly a serious IFR route from A to B. Until they get a job.

And if your a wannabie commercial more power to you sir for doing it.

[proudprivate]

- Do you take a VFR map along just in case your VOR/ADF/DME or glasscockpit fails ? Or you trust your IFR certified airplane and just take an IFR map with you ?


I always take a VFR map with me, but not in case of instrument failure, but in case I have to fly lower for weather (icing) reasons.


- I had an instructor who imposed the following minima for single engine piston IFR flight in his school : [...]


Upon passing my IR checkride, my examiner advised me not to take off with less than 1 mile visibility, which is similar to your instructor's advice.
Regarding ceiling, that would translate to your own minimums. If you are fine with doing an ILS to 200 ft under actual conditions, then the ceiling limit would be 200ft. In any case, the ceiling should not be below your own personal minimums in the approach to be flown.

Since then, I have taken off with airport minimums on RVR and no ceiling. I guess it depends on what kind of IMC we are talking about. If it is just a thin layer of fog and cavu 500 ft above that and airfields in VMC nearby then that is certainly defendable, even knowing that you cannot land back at the airport of departure.

If that is ok for you, then you should inform your passenger(s). If they are also ok with it, and you have a reasonable amount of actual IMC experience, then one could argue to go for it. The chance of an EFATO after a proper preflight and run up in a properly maintained aircraft are virtually nil. But all parties should be aware that, should an EFATO occur in these circumstances, chances of coming out unscathed will be slim.

[manucordier]

Interesting guys/girls. Thanks.

In fact, I don't feel comfortable to take off with a single engine and a ceiling lower than 1000 feet AGL. I think I will stick to that 1000 feet minimum minimorum ceiling for take off.

Thanks.

BTW, any other opinion, advice or if you wan to share your own experience, it is more than welcome.

Cheers,
E.

[peterh337]

- Do you take a VFR map along just in case your VOR/ADF/DME or glasscockpit fails ? Or you trust your IFR certified airplane and just take an IFR map with you ?Yes. Running as a GPS moving map, too. You must have a battery powered backup for NAV & COMMS for a total electrical failure, which is possible even in many twins.

- I had an instructor who imposed the following minima for single engine piston IFR flight in his school :

* Minimum Visibility for take off = minimum Vis for Landing x 1,5 (and no inferior to 1500meters)

* Minimum Ceiling for take off = minimum ceiling for landing x 2 (and no lower than 500 feet).

What would you do for a private IFR flight ? Do you find it too conservative ? Or not safe enough ?It is perhaps a very safe guideline but is not based on any legal requirements and is pretty impractical unless you are flying old wreckage.

It also depends on the actual figures. If your airport has an ILS with a 200ft DH then a min 400ft cloudbase is reasonable for departures. Similarly if it has high intensity lighting and your plane has an autopilot which can fly an ILS then you can land with a vis of 550m (I think; 800m otherwise) and again a requirement of 1100m vis for a departure is not too bad; anything less means you can't be sure there isn't a fire truck or whatever parked at the far end of the runway especially if departing out of hours when there is nobody in the tower.

I wonder if he bans night flight too.

If you don't like it, get yourself your own plane :) It's the only solution.

Of course there is much more to this.... surface weather is only a part of the picture in IFR ops; any monkey can get airborne under a 400ft cloudbase but it is high altitude weather is what will normally bite you (structural icing, CBs, etc). 400ft cloudbase is probably heavy warm front weather with tops ~ FL250 and the potential icing band in that will be ~8000ft thick.

Note also that "cloudbase" is the base of any cloud, whereas "ceiling" is the base of BKN or OVC only. This works in your favour ;) in the interpretation of these rules, but not if the FEW or SCT is sitting on the glideslope when you get there :)

Your name isn't Eric by any chance? Maybe not; he lives in Cologne ;)

[manucordier]

Of course there is much more to this.... surface weather is only a part of the picture in IFR ops; any monkey can get airborne under a 400ft cloudbase but it is high altitude weather is what will normally bite you (structural icing, CBs, etc). 400ft cloudbase is probably heavy warm front weather with tops ~ FL250 and the potential icing band in that will be ~8000ft thick.

Indeed, I was thinking about that... Flying in IMC from November to Marsh might be quite difficult in France/Belgium/Switzerland because of icing. With the 0° isotherm at 0 feet AGL, you cannot fly in a stratus at 2000 feet AGL or you'll accumulate rime ice on your aircraft. So what about winter IFR flight in IMC in Europe, forget it ?

[peterh337]

No; you just need to be careful in the conditions you fly in (e.g. avoid frontal weather), or fly an appropriately equipped aircraft (e.g. deice and radar), or be brave :)

Actually, at Eurocontrol flight planning levels, you are likely to have freezing temps all year round, even in Spain sometimes.

I have some IFR trip writeups here (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/). These illustrate a fairly careful planning strategy for a non de-iced aircraft without radar.

[Duchess_Driver]

Remember its not just the full engine failure in an SEP thats a problem - it's a partial power failure or some other emergency that requires a circle to return maintaining VMC that can cause issues with a low base/ceiling or reduced viz.

[S-Works]

When flying privately, I'm happy with the legal CAT I minima (550m/200ft).

I assume that is with a fully coupled auto pilot? SPA non coupled AP is 800m. (At least in the UK, I stand to be corrected elsewhere).

Otherwise I would agree, I fly IFR to system minima. My modifier is that I won't fly unless the Icing level is above the sector safety level as I am flying a non de-iced single.

However the reality is that you will rarely ever encounter those conditions in GA flying.

[proudprivate]

I have had three engine failures so far (luckily all in twins) and the next one is waiting to happen.

I take it you fly a DA-42 ? :p:p:p

No seriously, that is statistically rare (unless you have 10000+ hours). May I ask what caused each of the instances ? Were they related ?

[achimha]

What would you do for a private IFR flight ? Do you find it too conservative ? Or not safe enough ?

If you set yourself such conservative limits, you will most often end up not flying at all and the only benefit of your IR will be ATC guidance instead of circumnavigating airspaces. I found that in particular avoiding low enroute clouds (for the reason that you could not perform a forced landing) imposes a major limit. My strategy is altitude. In Central Europe, there are so many airports that you should always be able to find an ILS equipped airport in gliding distance, provided you have sufficient altitude. Just today I flew from Northern Germany to Southern Germany and at FL140 I felt very safe despite low clouds in most places.

Like Peter said, your goal has to be to quickly climb through clouds and reach VMC for the enroute segment. Neither in summer nor in winter you want to spend your time flying inside clouds. Even in winter with icing, if the cloud layer is not too thick, you can pass through without picking up any considerable ice.

[manucordier]

Hi Achimha,

FL 140, flying above the clouds then ?

Ok but you've got a pressurized airplane then ?

Because, supposedly, we shouldn't fly above 10.000 feet amsl without oxygen.
(However, I must admit that during my training we did fly on airways above FL100 without pressurization)

[peterh337]

However the reality is that you will rarely ever encounter those conditions in GA flying.

How does that work?

FL 140, flying above the clouds then ?

Ok but you've got a pressurized airplane then ?

Oxygen (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/oxygen/)

No oxygen = no IFR (practically speaking) at Eurocontrol levels.

Oxygen is the key to GA IFR. You pick the wx so you can climb through the wx at the terminal areas without getting iced up etc (which indeed implies a certain level of caution) and then you fly VMC on top when enroute, and climb as necessary. ATC always allows a climb "due weather" (if they are ICAO Level 0 English and don't understand "due weather" try "due severe icing" ;) ) and the only time you can't do that is if the tops (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/ir-sat/index.html) exceed your aircraft performance. But without oxygen you are limited to really nice days. Of course many people disagree with this strategy and they fly through frontal weather anyway, but they also have better stories to tell than I have :) (well not all of them (http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/432150-n2195b-seneca-report-out.html)...)

[achimha]

FL 140, flying above the clouds then ?

Ok but you've got a pressurized airplane then ?

Yes, above the clouds but no pressurization. I have a built-in oxygen system which I use above FL100. In winter, you can normally fly on top at a much lower level than I did but I wanted to go straight over Frankfurt's airspace which requires at least FL140.

IFR in a SEP without oxygen is rather limiting. Most of the time, you can fly on top of weather but for this you need to have the option to go higher than FL120 which I consider to be the highest usable level without oxygen.

What I love about IFR on a gloomy overcast winter day is when you break through the clouds and you are in bright blue and sunshine emerging from a bed of clouds.

[S-Works]

How does that work?

OK, Peter, how many times have YOU been flying on total system minima days from take off to landing?

I can count the number of days I have been flying in those conditions on two hands and I have rather more hours than you do. Even in quite marginal days that are nowhere near system minima light GA is never around.

So the reality is that most light GA IR pilots will look at system minima weather and call it. There is rarely a private flying trip THAT important!!

[172_driver]

Flying SEP in IMC is a risk you have to sign up for. It's like flying at night, it's all fun and beautiful until the fan quits. Perfectly legal but I don't think anyone really wants to touch the "what if" contingencies. Yes I have done a fair share of it, the school I was teaching at adopted FAR minimums (so 200 ft ceiling).

Apart from the engine trouble scenario, some things that need consideration:

- Personal minima, whatever you are confident with. When I was instructing I felt no problems going to minimums. But now having been away from it for a while and using A/P most of the time in my job I am not sure I'd take an OBI equipped C172 on a day with weather right at minimums.

- Instrument failure. I think we all had to prove we were proficient in flying without AI and/or HDG indicator on our check rides. But it's one thing flying under the hood on a CAVOK simulating with post-it notes a failed AI. Another thing have it happen to you subtly in IMC. Fortunately, the only time I've had an AI fail was in VMC. But it can happen… A very real audio file is circulating on youtube with a C210 (I think) getting out of control in IMC after loosing vacuum pressure. The G1000 AHRS is not immune to failure either, have had it happen. That was because of poor installation. But if one maintenance shop can get it wrong, I am sure others can too.

- In precipitation water can enter the pitot-static system. The C172 is a little bit susceptible to this. Even though there is a drain system, I have had both the airspeed indicator and altimeter show erratic indications. A colleague of mine was cruising happily at MDA in IMC when the altimeter "gave" and dropped 200 ft… so he was actually flying 200 ft below MDA.

- Icing is a very real threat to any aircraft not equipped for it. Before I go on a given flight, I check what the minimum flight altitudes are for my route and possible diversion routes. I used to fly in a mountainous area, normally quite warm but during winter could have freezing levels down to 3000-4000 ft MSL. Because the area was mountainous the MEA:s for many routes were quite high. However there were also coastal routes with much lower MEA:s that you could choose instead. Even though they weren't the preferred routes the ATC system was very flexible and if there was a legitimate reason for your request they could always help you out. Notwithstanding what other people's thoughts/experiences are I would not think about climbing through a layer of possible icing in a low powered SEP. What if you don't get through? It's best to avoid it altogether, even if that means no flying today.

So.. you choose if you are ready to sign up for it :ok:

But always leave yourself a way out…

[soay]

The G1000 AHRS is not immune to failure either, have had it happen.
Me too, only it was nothing to do with poor installation. It was an intermittent hardware failure that caused the AI to slowly tilt to a 15 degree angle of bank, with no error indication. Fortunately, this was in VMC.

[what next]

Hello!

Engine failures: No seriously, that is statistically rare (unless you have 10000+ hours). May I ask what caused each of the instances ? Were they related ?

1st: Magneto failure in a Cessna 421 during initial climb that resulted in wrong timing and firing sequence of the cylinders. The resulting vibrations were so bad that it was impossible to read instruments until the misfiring engine had been pulled back to idle.

2nd: A valve rocker arm broke in a Seneca during climb above level 100 leaving the inlet valve stuck open. The engine continued to run on five cylinders, but the turbochrger output escaped through the open valve. Impossible to maintain altitude, managed to hold 6000ft on 1 1/2 engines on the way back.

3rd and worst: Upon rotation the turbocharger broke off the exhaust manifold in a Cessna 421. The over-rich mixture resulted in an immediate rich-cut of the engine and exhaust gasses consisting mainly of unburnt fuel to enter the engine nacelle. Lots of fire damage inside the engine nacelle, cables and hoses burnt. Luckily the weather (just) permitted a wide 180 degree turn back to the runway with (just) enough time for an airliner that had lined-up behind us to clear the runway for us.

[peterh337]

Captain Bosey, the resident pilot forum sky-god, you must be pushing 20,000 hours now :) I am really impressed, since in that flyer on the Ontrack website it says

He moved across to SEP aircraft in 2002

I am truly impressed.

What I love about IFR on a gloomy overcast winter day is when you break through the clouds and you are in bright blue and sunshine emerging from a bed of clouds. Yeah.... (http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m74/peterh337/egka-lezg-on-top2big.jpg)

But always leave yourself a way out… I agree 100% but there are times when this is not actually possible, 100% of the time. I can think of departures and arrivals at certain airports, or flights above an overcast like this (http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m74/peterh337/alps-2010.jpg). Or any flight on a really dark night. All you can do is to minimise those times when you are exposed, and the stats seem to support this e.g. many GA planes cross the Alps but very few crash into them from enroute flight. The case of a departure with a cloudbase too low to return to the airport is another one, and I think most people take the risk on that. I do a lot of things which I would not do in somebody else's plane but e.g. I rarely fly at night because there is no escape route then.

Upon rotation the turbocharger broke off the exhaust manifold in a Cessna 421I know this could in principle happen at any time, but doesn't it indicate probable crappy maintenance? Most exhaust system failures are not sudden; they are the end result of a gradual degradation, with gases initially escaping through various orifices, and often the maintenance company bodges it with cement, which is OK until the whole piece gets blown out. A good 50hr check will pick up a lot of stuff. Exhaust systems are very expensive ($5k-$20k) and most people run them until they fall apart.

[Pace]

I flew the Citation to Jersey yesterday. Starting the descent Jersey were giving broken at 100 feet 1200 m vis.
Guernsey was giving 400 feet but that quickly changed to 700 M RVR and 100 feet.
I got the lights at minima and landed. The return flight to my home airfield was also down to minima.
Regards to Mad Jock as missed you again.

Would I like to have been in a piston single NO way :E

I think it is a good idea to only fly a piston single IMC if there is enough clear air under the clouds to comfortably manouvre for a forced landing incase the donkey stops and do watch icing.
A few weeks back again in the Citation I was picking up an inch every 6 minutes at one point decending into the IOM.

BTW the Americans have better lungs than us as they are good to 12500 feet continuous and 14000 feet for 30 minutes. You dont have to put the poor old PAX on oxygen till 15000 feet ;)


2nd: A valve rocker arm broke in a Seneca during climb above level 100 leaving the inlet valve stuck open. The engine continued to run on five cylinders, but the turbochrger output escaped through the open valve. Impossible to maintain altitude, managed to hold 6000ft on 1 1/2 engines on the way back

What Next you were lucky as I had three break off (shafts) In a 100 hr old Seneca at 200 feet in the climb.
The Aircraft was at grosse and I kept the unit going one hand poised on the prop lever as it was still producing some power which got me to 800 feet before I levelled at shut it down.
Continental replaced the whole unit without fuss the reason incorrect torque at manufacture. : Would not like to experience that again :eek:
Pace

[S-Works]

You still did not answer my question Peter, how often have you flown IFR, minima to minima for an entire flight?

You are quick to turn to personal insult and bul****e when asked an awkward question.

By your own admission you only ever fly when you can get VFR on top and not having an autopilot is an emergency......

So regal us with the stories of how often you fly minia to minima?

[peterh337]

Starting the descent Jersey were giving broken at 100 feet 1200 m vis.
Guernsey was giving 400 feet but that quickly changed to 700 M RVR and 100 feet.
I got the lights at minima and landed. The return flight to my home airfield was also down to minima.

You got lucky :)

I would not have done the flight in the first place, SE or ME.

You dont have to put the poor old PAX on oxygen till 15000 feet

Actually you merely have to make it available. They don't have to use it.

how often have you flown IFR, minima to minima for an entire flight?

Very rarely.

It is doable in UK Class G type IFR but on a Eurocontrol IFR flight this by implication exposes you to structural icing conditions during the whole enroute section, which is not smart unless you have appropriate hardware, which I don't.

not having an autopilot is an emergency

I never said that. I said I won't depart on a significant IFR flight if it was INOP. But then neither will British Airways so I must be doing something right ;)

[S-Works]

So in fact we agree. You just felt the urge to get into a childish fight. I thought the binning of the IO540 persona was an attempt to distance yourself from that behaviour.

Back to my original point, the average GA IFR pilot never flies in minima. Even commercially we rarely or even never see it as there are other factors such as icing level and aircraft capability that come into play.

[FlyingStone]

The G1000 AHRS is not immune to failure either, have had it happen. That was because of poor installation. But if one maintenance shop can get it wrong, I am sure others can too.

The G1000 is usually much more reliable than "steam" gauges, especially with "old" and non-integrated KAP140, which doesn't require AHRS. If the AHRS quits, you just engage autopilot in roll-hold mode (since it uses separate hidden turn-coordinator), and if the ADC is alive, it will even hold altitude. Besides, you must have a standby attitude indicator, which sometimes has a backup battery in case of complete electrical failure (such as DA40 for example) - very handy. On the other hand, if you have KI-256 attitude indicator and it packs up, the autopilot is more or less useless. Guess which one would I rather have? :)

I've flown SE IFR to IR minima, night routes over quite high terrain and it's not something I'd like to do every day, but sometimes all the other choices are much worse, for example: fly at night (VMC) or wait until morning and when the front reaches your intended route? As it's been said - SE IFR isn't for the faint-hearted ones, there are many risks involved - engine, instrument failure, ICING - but all those risks can be reduced as much as they can possibly be by proper preflight planning and inflight monitoring.

[peterh337]

On the other hand, if you have KI-256 attitude indicator and it packs up, the autopilot is more or less uselessAn excellent point, to which there is a solution (or two) but the most popular ones are either ineffective (little or no overall reliability improvement) or very pricey. There is now another solution which is easy but the paperwork is very nontrivial.

[172_driver]

The G1000 is usually much more reliable than "steam" gauges, especially with "old" and non-integrated KAP140, which doesn't require AHRS. If the AHRS quits, you just engage autopilot in roll-hold mode (since it uses separate hidden turn-coordinator), and if the ADC is alive, it will even hold altitude.

Cool, didn't know that little nugget. On the other hand, I am not the one that would trust my life to the KAP-140, it has played tricks on me before. Last time went into a nose dive as it was about to capture a step-down altitude on a LOC approach!!! :*

[FlyingStone]

On the other hand, I am not the one that would trust my life to the KAP-140, it has played tricks on me before.

Oh, you mean like localizer capture when you're at 30° angle to the airfield with full CDI deflection? :) Or making a sudden 15° heading change at 300ft AGL in approach mode, which was obviously not required :E

Autopilots - they really reduce the workload...

[172_driver]

Oh, you mean like localizer capture when you're at 30° angle to the airfield with full CDI deflection? :) Or making a sudden 15° heading change at 300ft AGL in approach mode, which was obviously not required :E

Oh well… poor KAP has to take a lot of beating now. It happens on the 737 too :E

[peterh337]

An autopilot is a brilliant thing to have in a plane. It reduces pilot workload by a good 10x.

The problem in GA is that most people run their planes into the ground to save money, which means there are very few autopilot specialists here in Europe. A lot of shops will tinker with them but without any understanding of what they are doing, and also the shops will not spend money on the test fixtures. It is much better in the USA, where there are several really good autopilot repair shops.

The old autopilots were also designed by chimps who used components which are known to be long term unreliable, like electrolytic capacitors used for the control loop time constants. There is very little design expertise in the avionics manufacturing business anyway... it seems that after Apollo finished in 1972 the really good engineers at say King left for new pastures :)

The modern autopilots are digital and are much better. They sometimes have issues in other departments (like the infamous KFC225 and its smoking servos) but having one there 99.9% of the time is well worth having.

[Pace]

You got lucky
I would not have done the flight in the first place, SE or ME.

Peter

There is nothing wrong with going to an airport giving broken 100 vis 1200 metres.

Obviously if the weather is suspect carry plenty of reserves for a possible diversion and make sure the diversions are not borderline too.
On the TAFS the weather we had was a prob 30 and the actual OK and above minima when we left.

You can usually tell on frequency listening to other approaches as to whether they are getting in, stuck in the hold, or diverting.
I dont like holding waiting for better things as to me that is using fuel to go no where :rolleyes: The motto " have fuel can travel " !

We have one quite nervous Pax on this ship and when she is onboard I am more aware of turbulence, extending airbrakes or go arounds in cloud although thankfully they dont happen often.

Pace

[peterh337]

Sure; I know that cloudbase (or ceiling ;) ) are not a ban on "going down and having a look" and that the RVR/vis approach ban applies only if it is operative at 1000ft, but for me much would depend on whether I actually wanted to be at the destination versus wanting to be at any of the alternates.

I find that in most cases the alternates are highly inconvenient dumps, so if the wx was marginal I would stay at home. The only exception which immediately comes to mind would be a holiday in Croatia where you have a pick of several nice destinations down the Adriatic, each with an airport with customs and avgas etc. In N Europe the alternates are rarely desirable. OTOH if I was being paid for the flying, by the hour or whatever, I would "have a go" because there is always a chance of getting in, and I would still be getting paid (and put up in a hotel etc) if I diverted.

If one flies for business, the decision is not that different to private flying because in most cases anything but the destination is a total waste of time - because a weather alternate is not likely to be too near.

It's not that one could not fly to minima every time. Going down the ILS on the autopilot and going around is a piece of cake. But if you are non-deiced then a cloudbase of say 300ft probably means heavy warm front wx with fine icing conditions high up, so the cancellation is not done on the basis of surface wx but is done on the basis of high altitude wx.

[oflorica]

My personal experience - last year I flew for fun a 2008 Cessna 172 from California to Sydney, Australia. The flight took 75 hours in 5 legs between 5-25 hours; of this 30hours were night flying. Approx 19hours were in IMC - cloud and rain (no icing conditions); some landings and take offs were in IMC or at night. Almost a third of the IMC hours were at night.
I also flew the same plane before leaving for Australia from Grand Rapids to California with many flights in IMC. The most solid IMC weather was between Santa Barbara to Long Beach via Catalina Island; I landed on the ILS with cloud at minima, heavy rain and crosswind.
The plane performed very well. That doesn't mean that there is no risk and I had my hairy moments on the shortest 5 hour leg. It all depends how comfortable you feel to do this.

[pmh1234]

I fly with the KAP140. I have understood this is rate based and rely soly on information from the turn coordinator.
Without vaccum the AI will loose track but nothing will happen to the eletric turn coordinator and thus to the KAP140.
On the other hand a KFC225 is attitude based and will be affected at a vaccum failure.
Even though the KAP140 is not so advanced I think it is quite stable and I plan to use this to help me decent in a vacuum failure situation.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[peterh337]

That's about correct.

The KFC225 does deliver superb accuracy and can cope with a lot of turbulence, and it can fly the various VNAV modes like constant VS, and track an ILS all the way down, but the KI256 is one weak link and the vac pump driving the KI256 is another weak link.

One can back up the vac pump with an electric vac pump but one can't back up the KI256 itself, which is a pretty unreliable instrument. On the plus side, it is very rare for a KI256 to pack up during flight.

There is an instrument which is an exact replica of the KI256 but has an electric gyro, and is actually made by the same company (Castleberry) which at one time used to make the KI256 for Honeywell, but the paperwork to do a switchover arrangement would be pretty substantial under FAA, and quite possibly impossible under EASA. And you cannot use it alone because (to cut a long story short, like a 2nd alternator just for an electric AI) an aircraft with a single electrical supply must have a vac driven AI to be certifiable. I have some notes on this here (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/tb20-experience/index.html) (sorry for the long article; search for KI256 or KI-256 :) ).

[Blind Squirrel]

Oflorica -- I hope you write up that flight some time. A lot of people, myself included, would be interested in reading it.

I too took a C172 from the east coast of the U.S. to California and back again -- a lot of it at night over very rugged terrain (you wouldn't believe just how far away most of New Mexico and Nevada are from anything human) -- without thinking very much about it. Then some years later I had a total engine failure in the cruise in a C152, fortunately in day VMC. I haven't given up night single-engine flying entirely, but nowadays it's basically in CAVU conditions, as high as I can reasonably go and with a lighted field always within reach. The illusion of invulnerability no longer applies.

[Pace]

Blind Squirell

I was always taught to never do anything in aviation where you dont have an out!!!! If you do your playing Russian Roulette.

Thinking back I did many flights many moons ago in singles which were not up to the job and in attrocious weather and got away with it. Getting away with it then becomes experience.

Some dont get away with it !!!

Fly within your own and the aircrafts limits! The problem is knowing what your and the aircrafts limits are! In the wrong conditions is not the place to find out.

Being lucky enough to fly high performance aircraft makes a pilot realise how ill equipt some piston singles and even some "twins" are.
As I said in an earlier post in this thread a few weeks ago flying a Citation Jet into the IOM at night I descended into icing where I had an inch buildup every six minutes. The Citation dealt with it well a PA28 would not.

Pace

[peterh337]

With a bit of luck the PA28 pilot would have got the wx and not done the flight.

Or at least that is the more intelligent way to go about it :)

Can you post (or email) the date/time so I can look up the available wx data, and have a stab at whether the severe icing conditions might have been expected?

[A and C]

An interesting string of failures by coincidence I know of another Continental TSIO-360 that had a rocker failure, unfortunately it was attached to the front of a PA28 and the outcome was not good.

The C421 exhaust sytstem is the subject of much AD action and your failure has the smell of poor maintenance.

Your Mag failure is of more interest to me, you do not state if you tried to turn off the mags one at a time to isolate the faulty mag or if this was a failure of the drive system to both mags ?

[Pace]

Peter

That flight was on Dec 5 out of London at about 1830. Climbed to around FL260, beautiful clear night over London. Frontal weather met south of Manchester, tops around 20K. Front weather West to East and picked up the ice in the descent.

But thats not my point ;) Ok on that night it may have been possible in a light single if you fancy flying at night over water to have stayed down at 3000 feet below the freezing level but do you want to be so low at night over water in a single???
The Question of not doing anything in Aviation without an out!
Knowing your own and the aircraft limitations would mean that a sensible person would not undertake the flight but.........................SOME DO!!!

Pace

[peterh337]

METAR EGNS 051820Z 27019KT 230V300 9999 FEW018 05/M00 Q1002 NOSIG
METAR EGNS 051920Z 27018KT 240V300 9999 FEW018 05/00 Q1002 NOSIG
METAR EGNS 051950Z 26019G30KT 230V290 9999 FEW022 05/01 Q1002 NOSIG
METAR EGNS 052020Z 27019KT 240V300 9999 FEW025 05/00 Q1002 NOSIG
METAR EGNS 052050Z 27019KT 230V300 9999 FEW020 05/00 Q1002 NOSIG
METAR EGNS 052120Z 27020KT 240V320 9999 FEW020 06/M00 Q1002 NOSIG

TAF EGNS 050457Z 0506/0515 28028G40KT 9999 SCT020 PROB30 TEMPO 0506/0515 6000 SHRAGS BKN015CB=
TAF EGNS 050800Z 0509/0518 29027KT 9999 SCT025 PROB30 TEMPO 0509/0518 5000 SHRAGS BKN015CB=
TAF EGNS 051100Z 0512/0521 28022KT 9999 SCT025 PROB30 TEMPO 0512/0521 5000 SHRAGS BKN015CB=
TAF EGNS 051400Z 0515/0522 28022G32KT 9999 FEW015 SCT025 PROB30 TEMPO 0515/0522 5000 SHRAGS BKN015CB=
TAF EGNS 051700Z 0518/0522 28022G32KT 9999 FEW015 SCT025 PROB30 TEMPO 0518/0522 5000 SHRAGS BKN015CB=

I can't (without effort) get high altitude wx for 5/12/2011 but it sounds like you flew into a CB in the dark :)

I can get the meteox.com radar archive pic (too much effort to save a copy to some image site so I can post it here) and it shows loads of patches of TCU/CB stuff. Not actually over the IOM but about 50nm away, on the way there.

You would need to be fairly brave to fly at night with CBs around, unless you had a way to detect them (radar), I would say.

Just got the JAA IR BTW so my life is now devoid of any purpose.

[Pace]

Peter

Congrats on the Ir maybe now you will join the EASA support club : )
Yes it was a line of embedded CBS almost impossible to find a way through on radar so a case of choosing the route of least resistance : ( In the pitch black that's hard especially with a 30 yr old radar unit : (

Pace

[peterh337]

Last words of AF447, too :)

No, I will always slag off EASA.

[421C]

Congrats Peter. The 170A may have been a pain, but a first-time pass on the IR is a great result.

There is an article here: PPL/IR Europe - Weather Minima (http://www.pplir.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=596)
which is very recent and has a summary of the regs on IFR weather minima as they affect private N and G operators, including changes resulting from EU-OPS.

[oflorica]

It is funny, every time I mention my flight I get asked to write about it. It was an interesting flight indeed. Perhaps I should get my thoughts together and put them on paper one day. I started in fact at Grand Rapids and flew across the US first. I had a choice to do the flight in a 206, 182 or a 172 and I opted for 172. I flew around Australia and Southern USA in 182s but I also flew around Australia in a small two seater ultralight 12years ago. I have experienced how lonely one can get in some of these parts of the world. Nothing compares though with the solitude you experience once you head South from Hawaii; words cannot describe it. I had engine failure, too. But isn’t there a risks everyday in everything else we do?

Oliver

[what next]

Hello!

An interesting string of failures ... ... and all of them could have happened in singles.

The C421 exhaust sytstem is the subject of much AD action and your failure has the smell of poor maintenance.You are probably right. The problem is, that as a pilot you can only check the paperwork, not the actual work done (not even my degrees in aerospace engineering do help me, because I'm rather a theoretician in that field). On paper, this C421 was in perfect shape.

Your Mag failure is of more interest to me, you do not state if you tried to turn off the mags one at a time to isolate the faulty mag or if this was a failure of the drive system to both mags ?

It turned out later that it was a failure to one mag only (one of the internal gears had jumped a couple of teeth which resulted in a wrong firing sequence). Turning off that magneto in flight would have solved the problem. We were two (at that time CPL) pilots on board and none of us even considered that option. The vibration and noise were so bad that all we could think about was a mechanical failure in the engine (like a broken reduction gear) or the propeller. Since we had five passengers and luggage and a lot of fuel we needed to get back to the departure airfield asap, therefore we didn't try anything with the engine but concentrated on getting back quickly (the weather was not much above CAT 1 minima...).

[Contacttower]

Just got the JAA IR BTW so my life is now devoid of any purpose.

Bit of a thread drift but how did it go in the end? Did you do it in your aircraft in the UK or did you go abroad? I've got the ground exams all done now so I just need to get on with the practical training...

[peterh337]

The problem is, that as a pilot you can only check the paperwork, not the actual work done (not even my degrees in aerospace engineering do help me, because I'm rather a theoretician in that field). On paper, this C421 was in perfect shape.

Ahem... aircraft ownership is not like a BMW which you drop off at the dealer with keys on the dash. You have to get stuck in, and get pro-active, or you risk your life unnecessarily. The "business" is full of chimps.

Bit of a thread drift but how did it go in the end? Did you do it in your aircraft in the UK or did you go abroad? I've got the ground exams all done now so I just need to get on with the practical training...

Did it in my TB20 in the UK.

[S-Works]

Congratulations Peter. Not quite the walk in the park you expected, but a good effort nonetheless. Welcome to the dark side...... :p

[peterh337]

Here we go again :yuk:

[S-Works]

Are you incapable of taking a compliment?
:ugh:

[oflorica]

You are so right Peter.
Prior to my transpacific flight I had ferry tanks fitted. A special airworthiness certificate was issued and the plane was ready, “on paper” for departure to Hawaii. There is pressure on you to start the flight ASAP as the special airworthy certificate is issued for only a short period of time. I had numerous engine failures testing one of the ferry tanks. It took me a few days to work out a fault in the installation of the fuel lines. Had I taken the installer word who told me that I need to fill up the tanks, filled up the tanks and depart I would have been 40gallon short of fuel over the Pacific with nowhere to land before Hawaii.
It is easier to check these things in a small Cessna, not that easy when the aircraft gets complex – so you are at the mercy of the mechanics.

Oliver

[thing]

Lol at Peter and Bose. :)

[what next]

Ahem... aircraft ownership is not like a BMW which you drop off at the dealer with keys on the dash. You have to get stuck in, and get pro-active, or you risk your life unnecessarily. The "business" is full of chimps.I don't agree with this statement. Especially as the aeroplanes get larger and more complicated (like a pressurized twin as the C421) and especially as the paperwork ("CAME/CAMO/...") gets more complicated and incomprehensible. As a laypesrson (and in this respect most aircraft owners and pilots are nothing but laypersons) you stand no chance to tell the quality of the maintenance from looking at those binders full of paper.

And how is an owner (or pilot, as in my case I was not the owner of that aircraft) going to verify the quality of the parts? You simply can't tell anything about an exhaust manifold until you have taken it out of the aircraft and x-rayed all it's welds. The are doing this kind of work on D-checks of airliners, but certainly not on SEPs and MEPs.

[peterh337]

And how is an owner (or pilot, as in my case I was not the owner of that aircraft) going to verify the quality of the parts?What you can do is supervise the maintenance.

I do my own 50hr checks, with a qualified engineer (but could legally do them alone). So I see if the exhaust system is leaking, etc.

On the Annual, which I get a company to do (essentially because, for standard airfield-political reasons, I don't have access to a hangar where a freelance engineer could work on it with me) I tell them to leave all inspection covers open at the end. I then spend ~2 hours inspecting everything with a light - lockwires, split pins, greasing, the lot. I also check the spark plugs for torque. Then I spray ACF50 into the airframe and wings and let them close it all up.

If they refuse, go elsewhere. The message is clear, after all.

One company returned the plane with the inspection covers replaced (contrary to instructions) and I never went there again. The fact that the elevator trim froze solid at FL140 (-14C) on the first post-Annual flight despite being fine down to -29C previously, and despite my strict instructions to use only the correct grease (Aeroshell Grease 7) or none at all, didn't help :)

I realise paid pilots have to take the firm's word for maintenance but in that case I would do serious due diligence on who does the work. It is also usually possible to inspect quite a lot around the engine with a light (a torch, as they are unfortunately called in the UK :) ). I don't know anything about the 421C cowlings but can't they come off to the required extent?

you stand no chance to tell the quality of the maintenance from looking at those binders full of paper. Of course - you have to look at the actual aircraft. The paper will always be 100% good. Only a mug will fail to rubber stamp every box.

You simply can't tell anything about an exhaust manifold until you have taken it out of the aircraft and x-rayed all it's welds

A visual check should be enough. They don't suddenly come apart. They are about 2mm thick, stainless steel or Inconel. You can get a pretty good idea of the condition visually.

[AN2 Driver]

do you want to be so low at night over water in a single???


Frankly, I don't even want to be that low over water in daylight and VMC in a single and quite possibly not in a twin either. That (apart from the tax SNAFU) is why I avoid Italy in VFR. And it is one bit which makes a GREAT case for the proposed Enroute IFR under EASA.

I've done some IFR on a single, probably the least capable you can think of, namely a Cessna 150, mine at the time. It was GREAT to avoid the said Italian TMA's, it was Great to fly night in VMC to get into an international airport a few minutes after night time legally and it was a sight less hassle than flying VFR. Long time ago, never had any problems. Today, I fly something a tad faster and more capable, VFR for now, but I long for the time I'll be flying it IFR (once I can afford to upgrade it and get my own IFR back which lapsed due to a hiatus in flying :ugh: which was very stupid on my part to let happen.)

Will I take it into severe IMC? No. Will I fly it to ILS minima? If I can afford the AP to do so, I'll consider 400 ft or so. Icing e.t.c. is a no no anyhow. So are TS and all that.

Will I take off to get above a low stratus with a 1000 ft ceiling with a 2000 ft top? Hell yea. Will I use it to fly safely at FL100 under full ATC control in VMC or below the icing level in IMC through Italy's TMAs? Once they get rid of their tax stupidity, you bet. Will I fly a few minutes into the night, which now would mean a premature diversion? Sure.

Is that worth the effort? Absolutely. Last year I experienced the "near IFR" routing in full VMC over Croatia and Serbia and loved it. MUCH more relaxed way to travel than to scud run at 1500 ft to avoid heaven knows what areas and shooting places and to fly VFR holdings over densely populated areas at 1500 ft AGL.

VFR is nice to go sightseeing. IFR is good for travelling.

My opinion, others may differ. Yet, I fully support EASA's proposal for the Enroute IFR for all the reasons mentioned, even though I will go for the full one.

Best regards
AN2 Driver