Moving up from 1 Pilot CJ4 to 2 pilot Citation 10

[nomorecatering]

Moving from the CJ4 to Citation x/10 you need to get a co pilot by law.

Is the Citation X that much of a step up in work load. Obviously systems are more complex but it seems better automated.

So what would you need to have a co pilots certificates, private non commercial op. Would a PPL with Instrument ME rating and a SIC type rating be enough. How does the SIC type rating compare in training.

[NuName]

It would be easier to answer this question if you stated what register the aircraft will be on.

[jetopa]

Is the Citation X that much of a step up in work load. Obviously systems are more complex but it seems better automated.


Yes it is, my friend! It is not an easy bird to master.

[Above The Clouds]

Moving from the CJ4 to Citation x/10 you need to get a co pilot by law.

Is the Citation X that much of a step up in work load. Obviously systems are more complex but it seems better automated.

So what would you need to have a co pilots certificates, private non commercial op. Would a PPL with Instrument ME rating and a SIC type rating be enough. How does the SIC type rating compare in training.


It seems to me from your comments that you are concerned or worried about conducting multi pilot training / ops.
Why would you want to fly such an aircraft using a PPL with instrument and sic ratings when you can obtain a full pic rating during the type course, what experience and licence do you have and what registary will the aircraft operate on?

[frontlefthamster]

The Citation X is a fantastic aircraft, but not for the faint-hearted...

The CJ4 is a very simple little aircraft, easily flown single-pilot. I'm lucky enough to have great fun in the CJ series, both for business and pleasure.

Moving from one to the other is a big step, and I'd advise anyone needing to do that to engage the services of some experienced swept-wing, long-range people, rather than assuming that it's 'just a different type'.

In particular, this is not a transition to make on the basis of minimum action to satisfy the regulator... The X is NOT a typical-PPL machine, by any stretch of the imagination.

[talkpedlar]

..from CJ4 to 10 or X is a BIG step! Apart from all the obvious stuff (range, weight,speeds,engine-management etc) you MUST talk to your insurers, Nomorecatering!

My guess is that, even if they approve a PPL/IR as P2, the premium will go through the roof...

Speaking personally..and no offence here... the thought of a 10 or X with a newly type-rated P1 and a PPL P2 scares the sh*t out of me!

Be totally professional my friend.

[Above The Clouds]

frontlefthamster
In particular, this is not a transition to make on the basis of minimum action to satisfy the regulator... The X is NOT a typical-PPL machine, by any stretch of the imagination.


frontlefthamster exactly :ok:



talkpedlar
Speaking personally..and no offence here... the thought of a 10 or X with a newly type-rated P1 and a PPL P2 scares the sh*t out of me!



talkpedlar
That is an under statement if P1 has only flown SP on the CJ series as well :eek:

[nomorecatering]

So just what makes the Citation X so difficult. Is it any different to a Boeing or Airbus.

China Southern Airlines puts 250hr co-pilots on the A320 and B777-300ER by the hundreds. They seem to manage.

[RainingLogic]

As a single pilot captain flying the Ultra, Primus 1000, stocked...3 EFIS, 2 MFDS, 2 FMS...for me the issue wouldn't be the gear, but the speeds and having to deal with a crew member.

I'd be tempted to fly it single pilot and maybe trade seats with the copilot for his PIC empty legs to get some experience.

That might seem blasphemous for the crew concept folks, but just about every aviation accident we have are two guys watching the ground come up...maybe just having a right seater 'watch' and step in if he needs, rather then find things for him to busy himself with might be a better way to go for a transitioning single pilot captain.

Keep in mind they tried to certify the Excel single pilot.

[FlyTCI]

I have never flown a CJ4 but I am typed in the XL and currently fly the X as a captain. What concerns me about the OP is that it seems he's trying to get by with the very bare minimums to fly the X, and as stated above by several members, that is ludacris. A captain with great experience in high performance jets might pull it off with a low hour guy in the right seat, but it's not something I would like to have any part of. This thing will bite you if you don't treat it correctly, and it can bite you fast! Do you have to be a fighter jock to be able to fly it? No. But it has a very swept wing and speed management is of essence, among other things. You will have to focus on flying the airplane while your other crew member is trying to figure out how to re-program the FMS after the last minute change ATC threw at you during approach. No two heads down at the same time, as you should know by now. ;)

The difference with the 250 hr guys going into Boeings and Airbuses is that they (normally) have gone though rather rigorous airline training prior to getting into that seat. In the biz av world most people can pull through a less intense three week initial type course at FSI or CAE and pass. That does not always make them ready to actually get into the airplane itself. I spent 500 hrs in various Citation sims through CAE's right seat program and I must have been part of close to 100 checkrides. I did not see one single client fail! I did hear from the instructors every now and then about clients who failed, but with the amount of people they have common through it was a VERY low percentage. What I am trying to say is that these training centers want you to come back and spend your money with them again and again, and if they keep failing people that aint gonna happen.

To conclude, don't sell yourself short when dealing with the X. Get the appropriate crew to fly it!

Have fun, it really is a great flying machine if handled correctly by professionals.

[nomorecatering]

FLY TCI. Its a husband and wife team, he has lear 35 command time (lots). They fly 2 crew on their MU2.

Didnt John and Martha King go from a Citation 500 to a Falcon 10?

[silverknapper]

NMC

I'd take the hint. A lot of experienced X drivers are telling you the facts.

You obviously want someone to say that a new Captain and a PPL make a safe crew composition. I very much doubt anyone here will tell you that. I guess you will be in the back? If so do yourself and your family/colleagues the service of having some experience in the front of what is a very high performance aircraft.

Ps husband and wife team. Really? I can read the report right now.

[Radar]

Ps husband and wife team. Really? I can read the report right now.

:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D

[RainingLogic]

Not to be argumentative but it's SOP to put a 250 hour pilot next to a 10,000 hour captain in the airlines....so anything the airline guys say with regard to this subject is suspect. It's also patently ridiculous to consider a 121 ops where the pilots fly the same routes for three months straight, never having to plan a trip or file flight plans, or buy fuel, as being anything akin to a 91 captain getting the call the night before and boss wants an international trip in the morning.

This scenario breaks down fast for the airline guy who can't plan, can't manage, can't work on his own, now saddled with the boss's idiot nephew who can't fly, but none the less is there, deal with it...now your airline guy is a single pilot captain in a X. He wanted the paycheck, he's going to have to live with it.

As far as the X being a hand full, sure, I get the speed issues, but anyone that I have talked to flying the X, has said the same thing...they never go .92, burns too much fuel, so it's .85, just like the Astra, or Falcon, or Lear...so the speeds are nothing out of the ordinary...so what if it's slippery on the decent, pull the power back, if your totally past it, throw out the brakes.

Personally my issue as a captain in this equation has zip to do with the plane, but who I have to sit next to and how they are going to contribute to the operation.

[FlyTCI]

RL, I can tell you that we ALWAYS go max speed. But that is in the Middle East and they don't care about fuel costs. :} The X is built to go fast and my view is why get, what at least used to be, the fastest airplane if you don't intend to use it to its fullest capabilities. Unless you just want to tell your rich buddies you can go faster than them of course.

[Brian Abraham]

As a single pilot captain flying the Ultra, Primus 1000, stocked...3 EFIS, 2 MFDS, 2 FMSNo you don't.

[silverknapper]

I'd be tempted to fly it single pilot and maybe trade seats with the copilot for his PIC empty legs to get some experience.

This is a Citation X you're talking about? Your not getting confused with a mustang?

And cruise speed isn't the issue everyone is referring to RL.

[Brian Abraham]

silverknapper, RL doesn't fly anything. He pops up continually on these forums under a continually changing alias. His modus operandi is to denigrate anyone with real qualifications in an effort to give his walter mitty persona gravitas.

[mutt]

250 hour pilot next to a 10,000 hour captain in the airlines. He also has no concept of airline training programs........

Mutt

[RainingLogic]

Mutt and Brian's vitriol is a response to having exposed them for the frauds they are. So it's all name calling now. The fact that John puts up with this is telling of the core sensibilities and purpose of this forum.

Fly TCI -

It's pretty myopic to think Sand Pit operators made of money, fueling up in a place that makes the stuff, is anything close to the rest of corporate aviation who are now pulling throttles and tankering fuel to keep costs down.

[chubbychopper]

As a single pilot captain flying the Ultra, Primus 1000, stocked...3 EFIS, 2 MFDS, 2 FMS...for me the issue wouldn't be the gear, but the speeds and having to deal with a crew member.

I'd be tempted to fly it single pilot and maybe trade seats with the copilot for his PIC empty legs to get some experience.

That might seem blasphemous for the crew concept folks, but just about every aviation accident we have are two guys watching the ground come up...maybe just having a right seater 'watch' and step in if he needs, rather then find things for him to busy himself with might be a better way to go for a transitioning single pilot captain.

Keep in mind they tried to certify the Excel single pilot.

Reads suspiciously like someone banned a few months ago...claimed to have SP waiver..St. in his monicker I seem to recall.

[RainingLogic]

It's pretty obvious why you guys can't stay on topic...if you could, you would.

[Brian Abraham]

Mutt and Brian's vitriol is a response to having exposed them for the frauds they are. So it's all name calling now. The fact that John puts up with this is telling of the core sensibilities and purpose of this forum.Neither of us are frauds. Tell you what, I'll happily post my credentials, certificates etc here for all to see. Assuming you wish to retain your anonymity, how about you post your credentials to a Moderator of your choice, and we'll see who the fraud is.

As for staying on topic, readers have a right to expect people are what they say they are. Not all are aviators, and if they are, may be reading, or asking questions to further their knowledge. Either way, getting answers/information from an individual who clearly has no aviation experience, though pretends to have, leaves them misinformed, which can have grievous consequences.

[chubbychopper]

Don't expend energy on him - he will soon be banned again.

[Guptar]

FlyTCI says teh Citation X, due to its higly swept wing would bit you. Can I ask exactly how.

Years ago when I was a lowly PPL with an IR, I bought an Aerostar. Thats way too hot for a lowly PPL the detractors said, it will bite you. Several years and a few thousand, happy and uneventful hrs later I traded it it in for a Mu2. Thats too much of an aircraft for you they again said. I had that for a couple of thousand hrs too.

However, I was lucky in that I got good training on ech aircraft, and had a mentor with many many thousands of hrs in both types, who trained and checked me, just like a charter outfit. he also deveolped an ops manual that I followed religiously. The first hundred hrs on each type had a limitation of VMC conditions for take-off and landing. Then as my experiance grew, the limits were gradually reduced.

His advice was, no aircraft is fundiamently too hard to operate. But fly them as they are supposed to be. Fly a C172 like one, and an MU2 like an MU2. In other words, in high poerformance equipment, a serious professional approach is requred...and good and recurent training.

[His dudeness]

His advice was, no aircraft is fundiamently too hard to operate. But fly them as they are supposed to be. Fly a C172 like one, and an MU2 like an MU2.

Mhhh....can´t say much about the X nor the MU2, but there seems to be a pattern in MU2 accidents and a higher accident rate? Wasn´t the FAA to mandate special training?

I had the 'pleasure' to fly with an owner on his MU2 for about an hour and I did one of the two landings. It was perfect weather but I remember being thankful that my boss liked the B200 better than the rice rocket.

Flight Safety used to have a relatively high min hour threshold (1500IIRC) for training pilots in the Sovereign (which is easy to master IMO) - isn´t the same thing there for the X?

I once had a very interesting lecture in CRM, where a psychologist explained how it comes that we use a very small core part of our brain when in emergencies.(what used to be, say, a bear to run from) When your brain goes into that mode, the chances that your brain can´t get to the special training you had for a certain aircraft, but reverts to basic training scenarios, is high. His words, I find them plausible and that would - to me - explain why airplanes such as the MU or the MD-11 have such a high accident rate in special regimes where they obviously are different to handle.

[mutt]

I find them plausible and that would - to me - explain why airplanes such as the MU or the MD-11 have such a high accident rate in special regimes where they obviously are different to handle.

http://www.bfu-web.de/cln_030/nn_223936/EN/Publications/Investigation_20Report/2010/Report__10__2X003__MD11__Riyadh,templateId=raw,property=publ icationFile.pdf/Report_10_2X003_MD11_Riyadh.pdf

His dudeness, you might find this interesting...

Mutt

PS.... dont tell anyone that it was a Lufthansa aircraft as the report is trying to keep it secret :ugh:

[F33A]

I don't think they are trying to keep it secret. Normally, the BFU never mentions the operator of aircraft in their publications. And from the pilots perspective, I'd rather know how and why someone crashed, helping me to not repeat their mistakes, rather than pointing at some operator.