Moving up from 1 Pilot CJ4 to 2 pilot Citation 10
Moving up from 1 Pilot CJ4 to 2 pilot Citation 10
Moving from the CJ4 to Citation x/10 you need to get a co pilot by law.
Is the Citation X that much of a step up in work load. Obviously systems are more complex but it seems better automated.
So what would you need to have a co pilots certificates, private non commercial op. Would a PPL with Instrument ME rating and a SIC type rating be enough. How does the SIC type rating compare in training.
Is the Citation X that much of a step up in work load. Obviously systems are more complex but it seems better automated.
So what would you need to have a co pilots certificates, private non commercial op. Would a PPL with Instrument ME rating and a SIC type rating be enough. How does the SIC type rating compare in training.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: where the money is
Posts: 385
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is the Citation X that much of a step up in work load. Obviously systems are more complex but it seems better automated.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 1,039
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Moving from the CJ4 to Citation x/10 you need to get a co pilot by law.
Is the Citation X that much of a step up in work load. Obviously systems are more complex but it seems better automated.
So what would you need to have a co pilots certificates, private non commercial op. Would a PPL with Instrument ME rating and a SIC type rating be enough. How does the SIC type rating compare in training.
Is the Citation X that much of a step up in work load. Obviously systems are more complex but it seems better automated.
So what would you need to have a co pilots certificates, private non commercial op. Would a PPL with Instrument ME rating and a SIC type rating be enough. How does the SIC type rating compare in training.
Why would you want to fly such an aircraft using a PPL with instrument and sic ratings when you can obtain a full pic rating during the type course, what experience and licence do you have and what registary will the aircraft operate on?
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: France
Posts: 481
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Citation X is a fantastic aircraft, but not for the faint-hearted...
The CJ4 is a very simple little aircraft, easily flown single-pilot. I'm lucky enough to have great fun in the CJ series, both for business and pleasure.
Moving from one to the other is a big step, and I'd advise anyone needing to do that to engage the services of some experienced swept-wing, long-range people, rather than assuming that it's 'just a different type'.
In particular, this is not a transition to make on the basis of minimum action to satisfy the regulator... The X is NOT a typical-PPL machine, by any stretch of the imagination.
The CJ4 is a very simple little aircraft, easily flown single-pilot. I'm lucky enough to have great fun in the CJ series, both for business and pleasure.
Moving from one to the other is a big step, and I'd advise anyone needing to do that to engage the services of some experienced swept-wing, long-range people, rather than assuming that it's 'just a different type'.
In particular, this is not a transition to make on the basis of minimum action to satisfy the regulator... The X is NOT a typical-PPL machine, by any stretch of the imagination.
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Offshore
Age: 73
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Frontlefthamster is quite right..
..from CJ4 to 10 or X is a BIG step! Apart from all the obvious stuff (range, weight,speeds,engine-management etc) you MUST talk to your insurers, Nomorecatering!
My guess is that, even if they approve a PPL/IR as P2, the premium will go through the roof...
Speaking personally..and no offence here... the thought of a 10 or X with a newly type-rated P1 and a PPL P2 scares the sh*t out of me!
Be totally professional my friend.
My guess is that, even if they approve a PPL/IR as P2, the premium will go through the roof...
Speaking personally..and no offence here... the thought of a 10 or X with a newly type-rated P1 and a PPL P2 scares the sh*t out of me!
Be totally professional my friend.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 1,039
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
frontlefthamster
In particular, this is not a transition to make on the basis of minimum action to satisfy the regulator... The X is NOT a typical-PPL machine, by any stretch of the imagination.
In particular, this is not a transition to make on the basis of minimum action to satisfy the regulator... The X is NOT a typical-PPL machine, by any stretch of the imagination.
talkpedlar
Speaking personally..and no offence here... the thought of a 10 or X with a newly type-rated P1 and a PPL P2 scares the sh*t out of me!
Speaking personally..and no offence here... the thought of a 10 or X with a newly type-rated P1 and a PPL P2 scares the sh*t out of me!
That is an under statement if P1 has only flown SP on the CJ series as well
So just what makes the Citation X so difficult. Is it any different to a Boeing or Airbus.
China Southern Airlines puts 250hr co-pilots on the A320 and B777-300ER by the hundreds. They seem to manage.
China Southern Airlines puts 250hr co-pilots on the A320 and B777-300ER by the hundreds. They seem to manage.
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a single pilot captain flying the Ultra, Primus 1000, stocked...3 EFIS, 2 MFDS, 2 FMS...for me the issue wouldn't be the gear, but the speeds and having to deal with a crew member.
I'd be tempted to fly it single pilot and maybe trade seats with the copilot for his PIC empty legs to get some experience.
That might seem blasphemous for the crew concept folks, but just about every aviation accident we have are two guys watching the ground come up...maybe just having a right seater 'watch' and step in if he needs, rather then find things for him to busy himself with might be a better way to go for a transitioning single pilot captain.
Keep in mind they tried to certify the Excel single pilot.
I'd be tempted to fly it single pilot and maybe trade seats with the copilot for his PIC empty legs to get some experience.
That might seem blasphemous for the crew concept folks, but just about every aviation accident we have are two guys watching the ground come up...maybe just having a right seater 'watch' and step in if he needs, rather then find things for him to busy himself with might be a better way to go for a transitioning single pilot captain.
Keep in mind they tried to certify the Excel single pilot.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: on earth
Posts: 274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have never flown a CJ4 but I am typed in the XL and currently fly the X as a captain. What concerns me about the OP is that it seems he's trying to get by with the very bare minimums to fly the X, and as stated above by several members, that is ludacris. A captain with great experience in high performance jets might pull it off with a low hour guy in the right seat, but it's not something I would like to have any part of. This thing will bite you if you don't treat it correctly, and it can bite you fast! Do you have to be a fighter jock to be able to fly it? No. But it has a very swept wing and speed management is of essence, among other things. You will have to focus on flying the airplane while your other crew member is trying to figure out how to re-program the FMS after the last minute change ATC threw at you during approach. No two heads down at the same time, as you should know by now. 
The difference with the 250 hr guys going into Boeings and Airbuses is that they (normally) have gone though rather rigorous airline training prior to getting into that seat. In the biz av world most people can pull through a less intense three week initial type course at FSI or CAE and pass. That does not always make them ready to actually get into the airplane itself. I spent 500 hrs in various Citation sims through CAE's right seat program and I must have been part of close to 100 checkrides. I did not see one single client fail! I did hear from the instructors every now and then about clients who failed, but with the amount of people they have common through it was a VERY low percentage. What I am trying to say is that these training centers want you to come back and spend your money with them again and again, and if they keep failing people that aint gonna happen.
To conclude, don't sell yourself short when dealing with the X. Get the appropriate crew to fly it!
Have fun, it really is a great flying machine if handled correctly by professionals.
The difference with the 250 hr guys going into Boeings and Airbuses is that they (normally) have gone though rather rigorous airline training prior to getting into that seat. In the biz av world most people can pull through a less intense three week initial type course at FSI or CAE and pass. That does not always make them ready to actually get into the airplane itself. I spent 500 hrs in various Citation sims through CAE's right seat program and I must have been part of close to 100 checkrides. I did not see one single client fail! I did hear from the instructors every now and then about clients who failed, but with the amount of people they have common through it was a VERY low percentage. What I am trying to say is that these training centers want you to come back and spend your money with them again and again, and if they keep failing people that aint gonna happen.
To conclude, don't sell yourself short when dealing with the X. Get the appropriate crew to fly it!
Have fun, it really is a great flying machine if handled correctly by professionals.
FLY TCI. Its a husband and wife team, he has lear 35 command time (lots). They fly 2 crew on their MU2.
Didnt John and Martha King go from a Citation 500 to a Falcon 10?
Didnt John and Martha King go from a Citation 500 to a Falcon 10?
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: BFS
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NMC
I'd take the hint. A lot of experienced X drivers are telling you the facts.
You obviously want someone to say that a new Captain and a PPL make a safe crew composition. I very much doubt anyone here will tell you that. I guess you will be in the back? If so do yourself and your family/colleagues the service of having some experience in the front of what is a very high performance aircraft.
Ps husband and wife team. Really? I can read the report right now.
I'd take the hint. A lot of experienced X drivers are telling you the facts.
You obviously want someone to say that a new Captain and a PPL make a safe crew composition. I very much doubt anyone here will tell you that. I guess you will be in the back? If so do yourself and your family/colleagues the service of having some experience in the front of what is a very high performance aircraft.
Ps husband and wife team. Really? I can read the report right now.
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not to be argumentative but it's SOP to put a 250 hour pilot next to a 10,000 hour captain in the airlines....so anything the airline guys say with regard to this subject is suspect. It's also patently ridiculous to consider a 121 ops where the pilots fly the same routes for three months straight, never having to plan a trip or file flight plans, or buy fuel, as being anything akin to a 91 captain getting the call the night before and boss wants an international trip in the morning.
This scenario breaks down fast for the airline guy who can't plan, can't manage, can't work on his own, now saddled with the boss's idiot nephew who can't fly, but none the less is there, deal with it...now your airline guy is a single pilot captain in a X. He wanted the paycheck, he's going to have to live with it.
As far as the X being a hand full, sure, I get the speed issues, but anyone that I have talked to flying the X, has said the same thing...they never go .92, burns too much fuel, so it's .85, just like the Astra, or Falcon, or Lear...so the speeds are nothing out of the ordinary...so what if it's slippery on the decent, pull the power back, if your totally past it, throw out the brakes.
Personally my issue as a captain in this equation has zip to do with the plane, but who I have to sit next to and how they are going to contribute to the operation.
This scenario breaks down fast for the airline guy who can't plan, can't manage, can't work on his own, now saddled with the boss's idiot nephew who can't fly, but none the less is there, deal with it...now your airline guy is a single pilot captain in a X. He wanted the paycheck, he's going to have to live with it.
As far as the X being a hand full, sure, I get the speed issues, but anyone that I have talked to flying the X, has said the same thing...they never go .92, burns too much fuel, so it's .85, just like the Astra, or Falcon, or Lear...so the speeds are nothing out of the ordinary...so what if it's slippery on the decent, pull the power back, if your totally past it, throw out the brakes.
Personally my issue as a captain in this equation has zip to do with the plane, but who I have to sit next to and how they are going to contribute to the operation.
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: on earth
Posts: 274
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RL, I can tell you that we ALWAYS go max speed. But that is in the Middle East and they don't care about fuel costs. 
The X is built to go fast and my view is why get, what at least used to be, the fastest airplane if you don't intend to use it to its fullest capabilities. Unless you just want to tell your rich buddies you can go faster than them of course.
The X is built to go fast and my view is why get, what at least used to be, the fastest airplane if you don't intend to use it to its fullest capabilities. Unless you just want to tell your rich buddies you can go faster than them of course.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: BFS
Posts: 1,177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd be tempted to fly it single pilot and maybe trade seats with the copilot for his PIC empty legs to get some experience.
And cruise speed isn't the issue everyone is referring to RL.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Sale, Australia
Age: 80
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
silverknapper, RL doesn't fly anything. He pops up continually on these forums under a continually changing alias. His modus operandi is to denigrate anyone with real qualifications in an effort to give his walter mitty persona gravitas.
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mutt and Brian's vitriol is a response to having exposed them for the frauds they are. So it's all name calling now. The fact that John puts up with this is telling of the core sensibilities and purpose of this forum.
Fly TCI -
It's pretty myopic to think Sand Pit operators made of money, fueling up in a place that makes the stuff, is anything close to the rest of corporate aviation who are now pulling throttles and tankering fuel to keep costs down.
Fly TCI -
It's pretty myopic to think Sand Pit operators made of money, fueling up in a place that makes the stuff, is anything close to the rest of corporate aviation who are now pulling throttles and tankering fuel to keep costs down.