motor glider conversion to jar ppl

[john_rogers182]

Is it possible? And if so what do imployers think of doing it as you don't have log hours in a signal porp engine or don't it matter ? Or would it be best to just do all your lessons in a pa38 Get you ppl and then do a cpl ?

Just need a bit of info and the best way to get a ppl so I can then go on to a cpl without jeopardising my chance of getting a job.

Thanks a lot for your help.

[Whopity]

By motor glider I assume you are referring to the SLMG. This is a UK aircraft designation and under EASA, UK licences issued after 2012 will not be convertible to EASA licences, except perhaps NPPL-LAPL. Touring Motor Glider TMG is the European equivalent and up to 30 hours may be credited towards a CPL. Currently very few schools teach for the PPL (TMG). Employers will not be in the least bit interested in what you have flown so long as you are qualified to the level they require.

[john_rogers182]

Thanks just that a school has told me thay can get my jar ppl for £3000 Becuase I get my moto glider licences 1st an then do 2 hours on a pa38 and the I get my jar ppl thn I can start my cpl that sound right to you guys??

[john_rogers182]

I will do the moto glider way if it will save me money to start but I just don't see how you can go from motor glider to pa38 you see and I did not know if it was possabul

Ive been told you see I can get my jar ppl for £3000 and that like a saving of £3600 so if i can do it that way then so be it you know...

[Whopity]

I get my moto glider licences 1st an then do 2 hours on a pa38 and the I get my jar pplDo they mean TMG? If so its possible. If they mean SLMG you will only get a NPPL. For a JAA licence you need 25 hours dual instruction with a JAA FI! Most motor glider instructors are not JAA FIs

[billiboing]

Whopity- wake up man!

Yes you can do a PPL this way. the steps are;

1) NPPL motorglider
2) Differences training to NPPL single engine piston
3) NPPL to JAR/ EASA PPL

We know that a) NPPL is here for at least two more years possibly longer
b) That NPPL will be convertable to EASA PPL


The main difference is simply this- motorgliders use 2.5 gallons an hour- our PA38s use 6 gallons an hour and PA28s use 8 gallons an hour

IT IS THE FUEL COST that means there is significant cost savings.

[BEagle]

steakandchips, a few errors:

Yes, you can add an SSEA Class Rating to a NPPL/SLMG very easily, but to convert an NPPL to a JAR-FCL PPL is less straightforward as, irrespective of SLMG training time, you must have the requisite time under instruction and under supervision with a JAR-FCL instructor nonetheless.

I have yet to learn whether there will be a direct conversion route from NPPL to EASA PPL; however, there will be a route from NPPL to LAPL and from LAPL to EASA PPL.

However, a JAR-FCL PPL on a TMG, followed by an SEP Class Rating may indeed be less expensive - but the all-in cost needs to be thoroughly researched.

There are no 'cut price' routes to CPL - if there were, then everybody would be using that route. Remember that in aviation, if something seems too good to be true then it probably isn't true!

[Whopity]

Steak and Chips

I suggest you wake up because you cannot convert from SLMG to JAA PPL in the two hours claimed by the original poster.

If you are telling your customers that you can, I suggest you are deceiving them.

[billiboing]

Whopity

What you say about UK Licences issued after 2012 will not be convertible to EASA licences is not true.

This has not been decided yet. I sat on a very boring meeting on Friday on the committee that is looking at these issues. It has decided to form a sub committee that will report back to the main committee and then refer back to EASA

It is all FAR from settled as to what is happening.

As for doing difference training- 2 hours is the time we allow for the flight test NOT the conversion training.

[john_rogers182]

I don't know, the guy was definitely genuine about it and said he is going to get back in touch with me to sort everything out.

Just need to get my jar ppl now as I want to start flying on my own.

Thanks for all your help as I really appreciate it.

This is my e-mail address [email protected]

If anyone has anything just email me :)

Thanks alot John.

[Whopity]

What you say about UK Licences issued after 2012 will not be convertible to EASA licences is not trueI refer you to the CAA Website para 4.3 and 4.4 (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=620&pagetype=90&pageid=11675) of the Expected Effects on Pilot Licensing in the UK. I accept the date for LAPL conversion is later but the original question related to a JAA/EASA PPL not the LAPL.

I don't think someone with a need to obtain a JAA PPL now is going to hang around until 2015 to find out how the leisure licences finally pan out.

[znww5]

So let's see if I've got this right. It is possible for the OP to go the cheaper route by:

1. getting an NPPL(SLMG)
2. adding an (SSEA) to the NPPL
3. converting the NPPL(SLMG &SSEA) to LAPL equivalent
4. do extra training to convert the LAPL to an EASA PPL(TMG & SEP)

The provisos being:
a. he needs a JAR/EASA TMG instructor to reduce costs further down the line
b. the NPPL must have been issued before 7th April 2015

It seems to me that for an ab initio student this is something of a win-win situation. Most importantly it gets him flying - for less, it gives him a European LAPL if circumstances prevent him from going commercial and a possible upgrade route if he does want to fly the big stuff.

Whilst a prospective commercial candidate might need to be a bit careful regarding the 'flavour' of motor glider instructor, the majority of leisure flyers would probably be fine with the LAPL route.

[billiboing]

This is where the confusion has arisen.

At first there was a cut off date of 5th April 2012, but it has now been confirmed that NPPLs will continue to be issued for another 2 years- hence the reason why this route is still available.

The cut off date of 5 April 2012 ONLY refers to JAR licences. As we know the conversion from NPPL to EASA but dont know the other conversions yet we are stuck in EASA limboland

[BEagle]

steakandchips, you really are spreading some utter bolleaux!

The NPPL will continue to be available. However, it will not be acceptable for EASA aircraft after Apr 2015, but will still be accpetable for non-EASA aircraft. Neither will it be possible to convert a NPPL to a LAPL after 8 Apr 2015.

Who exactly do you purport to represent on this mysterious 'JAR/EASA/ CAA Flight Crew licensing conventions committee' that bored you so much last week? Were you elected for such representation?

[HelipadR22]

Since only a max of 30 hours TMG can count towards a CPL can you gain your PPL(A) by doing 30 hours TMG and 15 hours SEP?

[LAI]

Sorry for what has turned out to be a fairly long reply!

HelipadR22:

Last time I checked LASORS on the subject, ISTR that you can count up to 10% of your TMG PIC time (up to a max. 10 hours) towards the JAR PPL hours requirements.

You can also count up to 30 hours of TMG PIC time towards the CPL hours requirements, BUT (oddly enough) you cannot use it to satisfy the 100 hours PIC requirement which is part of it, only the total time aspect.

Note that it must be PIC time on motor gliders, not any "kind" of time...


And back to the OP:

As previous posters have discussed, the only way I can see this working is through some sort of NPPL SLMG - SEP conversion - JAR PPL conversion route. I guess it might save a bit of money through the difference in hourly rates etc.

HOWEVER, as the OP is specifically looking to move towards a commercial licence, he may lose out when it comes to hours building later on. As per my understanding of LASORS above, all of that dual time on motor gliders during his PPL training could not be counted towards his hours building, leaving perhaps an extra 20-30+ hours of SEP flying that he would have to pay for at a later date in order to reach the magic 150. But if he did his whole PPL on an SEP type instead, most if not all of those dual hours would count towards it.

Perhaps, as others have already suggested, a false economy?

LAI (standing by to be ripped apart by someone who actually knows what they're talking about :})

[HelipadR22]

I've just done a bit of digging in Lasors 2010 and this is how I see it.

You can obtain a PPL(A) in a TMG and add SEP as a type rating.

To go for commercial you need (from D1.2) hold a PPL(A) (it does not state that the PPL must be fully SEP, only that it is a valid PPL) and have 100 hours PIC.
Of those 100 hours PIC 30 can be TMG. Since during training you are not PIC unless solo (does it count as you are still under instruction? I need clarification) you could potentially do a further 30 hours in TMGs whilst you are hour building.

The relevant bit is the final 200 hours gained up to CPL level, of which it states the 200 hours can be a combination of Dual and PIC of which 30 hours TMG PIC are accepted.

So, it seems to me the TMG route is valid and therefore very cost effective.

As with LAI, ready to be corrected.

LASORS 2010 - Relevant sections are C1.2 and D1.2(D)
LASORS 2010 | Personnel Licensing | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=175&pagetype=68&gid=2081)

This is my planned route to a CPL so am very interested in the outcome of this thread.

[billiboing]

Thank you Helipad. Totally correct.

[Mickey Kaye]

mmm. I'm finding this complicated.

But aren't you training for a NPPL (SLMG) so do those hours count the same as TMG hours?

And if only 30 hours TMG can count towards you 200TT wouldn't you be better off getting yout PPL on an SEP and then logging 30 hours TMG as part of a conversion and hour building?

I think I need to do some reading up

[HelipadR22]

In my example you are going for a PPL(A) with TMG rating then adding an SEP rating.

The 30 hours TMG are when you are Pilot in command, not under instruction.

[Jim59]

The flying is the easy bit. Understanding the regulations is ... :E

[B4aeros]

But aren't you training for a NPPL (SLMG) so do those hours count the same as TMG hours?If you do the JAR syllabus in a TMG & do the skills test with a TMG examiner, you get a JAR PPL with a TMG rating.

The reason so few people know about this is that TMG examiners are rare. AFAIK steakandchips' place is the only commercial operation in the country that teaches for the issue of a PPL TMG, (as opposed to adding a TMG rating to a PPL SEP.)

[Mickey Kaye]

Ok got that

but if you do a 45 hour TMG PPL you can only count 30 of those hours for cpl issue. Thus 15 hours of expenditure is lost. Is that correct.

[HelipadR22]

I dont believe so, as it states 30 hours PIC, when you are training you are not PIC, therefore none of the PPL hours get wasted. If they count the Solo flying during your PPL as PIC then that is only 10 that get counted and leaves you with a further 20 to get after your PPL.

So in theory (I say theory as I am no expert), you could fly 65 hours in the TMG as 35 are under instruction and not PIC. 75 if the solo portion of the PPL doesnt count as PIC.

[Mickey Kaye]

Well i'm still not convinced - from lasors

D1.2(D)
NOTES
The 200 hours flying experience may comprise flight time
in any of the following capacities:
•
Pilot-in-Command/Solo (PIC), counted in full.
•
Pilot-under-Instruction (Dual), counted in full.

The following credits will apply towards the total 200 hours
of flight time and not the specific requirements of (a)(i) and
(ii), (b) or (c) above:
i.
30 hours as pilot-in-command holding a PPL(H) on
helicopters; or
ii.
100 hours as pilot-in-command holding a CPL(H),
or as a QSP(H), on helicopters; or
iii.
30 hours as pilot-in-command in touring motor
gliders or gliders (including Vigilant)


So my take on it is that only 30 hours can count and they can be either PIC or PUT. A useful and worthwhile saving no doubt but I'm not convinced its any more than that.

[HelipadR22]

The clarification that is needed (as I have said in my other posts) is that whether PUT is classed as PIC.

PIC is defined as the sole manipulator of the controls and has responsibility for the flight. You dont have that as PUT. Your dual time is not logged as PIC.

I'll see if I can contact the CAA to get verification.

[HelipadR22]

I have now emailed the CAA for clarification, I will let you all know the outcome.

[LAI]

Thanks Helipad. I look forward to hearing what you get back from them!

I still don't think this is going to help anyone out financially*, as I still read it as meaning none of the dual motor glider hours during PPL training would count towards the CPL hour building (where SEP dual hours would). Hours which would have to be made up (and paid for) further down the line.

Personally, I think the whole thing is crazy. I have nearly 400 hours on TMG (much of it instructing), and as far as I'm concerned it is perfectly valid. After all, if the engine is running it is in fact an SEP (with long wings)!! :E


*There are of course many other good reasons for doing it...anything that broadens one's flying experience will make you a better pilot!

[HelipadR22]

Why would you think that none of the dual hours count? CPL says valid PPL(A) which a TMG one is as it needs to be done with a JAR instructor (not bga).

I've run this by a few very experienced people (instructors etc), they read it the same as me.

All your dual plus 30 PIC should count.

Hopefully the CAA wont simply respond with please see LASORS 2010 SECTIONS C1.2 AND D1.2(D) :E

[LAI]

Fingers crossed. Though knowing the CAA, that may be EXACTLY the answer you get back! :}

The reason I read it the way I did is firstly because that was the conclusion when I asked around a couple of years ago and secondly, due to the following statement:
The following credits will apply towards the total 200 hours of flight time and not the specific requirements of (a)(i)...

iii. 30 hours as pilot-in-command in touring motor gliders or gliders (including Vigilant)

(n.b. "(a)(i)" is the 100 hours PIC requirement)

Now, as I read it, this is excluding all other motor glider flying by virtue of the fact that they include this specific exemption to be able to count those 30 hours PIC (but not as PIC time!).

However, looking at it again today, the only clues LASORS actually gives in the general CPL requirements are so wooly (e.g. "PPL(A)" and "must be flown in aeroplanes") that I'll admit I can also see that you could be entirely correct.

As usual, the rules are so badly written that such confusion can arise! However, I hope we'll all learn something useful from the discussion anyway (though probably just that I am talking complete rubbish, as usual :ok:).

[BEagle]

The clarification that is needed (as I have said in my other posts) is that whether PUT is classed as PIC.
I have now emailed the CAA for clarification, I will let you all know the outcome.

Well, that should give the CAA a chuckle. Of course PUT is not classed as PIC - the instructor is PIC and the student is a pilot under training.

[HelipadR22]

BEagle, that is not the direct question I have asked them so I'm sure it wont make them chuckle. I have asked the question of the validity of the route to CPL using a TMG.

[HelipadR22]

I had a reply from the CAA this afternoon. They have stated that Dual TMG hours do not count towards the 200 hours required for a CPL.

[vjmehra]

I just came across this thread, out of curiosity, assuming I'm reading this correctly, it sounds like it is possible to get a PPL (TMG) and then potentially convert to SEP at some point later (if desired).

Lets gloss over whether this is cost efficient for now, I'm just curious as to whether anyone offers PPL (TMG) at the moment as I didn't even realise it was possible and it sort of appeals, getting the best of both worlds!