Hawks Vs Typhoon

[Dan Gerous]

To the crews of the two Hawks and the Typhoon who were dogfighting over Hawick around 15.00 this afternoon :ok:

Just caught the end of it, after hearing a bit of jet noise over the factory. Who won?

[ghostnav]

Well the Hawks would have no clue where the Typhoons were for a start. Given the wpn match, I suggest the Typhoons did. In the visual - who cares?

[Courtney Mil]

Depends. If you could see them all at the same time, it was a visual fight. Once you're 2v1, as long as you play your game correctly the two should win. Even with just 2xAIM9L and an Aden cannon.

Obviously the Typhoon is in a different league, but even he can't shoot what's behind him - if they did it right.

Or behind her. Other genders are abvailable.

[eaw]

Forget the cannon as the Hawk is extremely unlikely to be able to get anywhere near close enough to the Typhoon for it to be of any use. Unseen Aim9L shot would be its only chance, but even then it would need to be a quick shot before the seen Hawk was toast & the Typhoon reversed the hunted/hunter roles.

[Runaway Gun]

What flight sim are you kids playing???

[BEagle]

What flight sim are you kids playing???

I trust you're not referring to Courntey Mil? As a highly experienced air defence pilot (F-4, F-15, F-3....and Hawk), I think you'll find he knows his stuff!

[LateArmLive]

Forget the cannon as the Hawk is extremely unlikely to be able to get anywhere near close enough to the Typhoon for it to be of any use.

Utter crap. Stick to being an admin burden (as your name suggests)

[Runaway Gun]

No Beags - I'm referring to the others.

I've yet to use the hunted/hunter/toast reversal ;)

[LOAgent]

I sincerely hope that the Hawks were simulating something other than 9Ls. If not then the Typhoon needs to stop picking on the little kids in the playground and find something better to play fight with.

[Courtney Mil]

Thanks, BEags! RG, understood. :ok:

In truth, it's an academic question. Visual combat against a Typhoon can only happen if you can get close to it in the first place (or set it up). The whole point is for the fighter to make the Hawks into scrap metal way before they even know he's there.

Of course, it's still important for Typhoon pilots to practice this sort of thing; it's a good handling/capacity exercise, but (more important) enormous fun. ;)

the Typhoon needs to stop picking on the little kids

A kill's a kill.


Courtney

[eaw]

Hi LAL

Apologies if my initials suggest that I am an admin burden, however having over 4000hrs of airborne time in the Hawk (+ another 3000 in other pointy types), I have been unfortunate enough to have been on the receiving end of Hawk vs Typhoon visual manoeuvring on many occassions & am more than happy to stand by my statement.

[LateArmLive]

Apologies for my presumption!

I have been on both sides of the Hawk/Typhoon fight, and stand by my statement. Granted, the Typhoon should win BVR every time, but by the sounds of it this ex was 2v1 acm in the visual arena. I'm sure you've flown many of these serials in your Hawk and found yourself on the winning side - even if you lost your wingy :ok:

[AR1]

I was in a Raptor and did them all from 40 miles away unseen. I didn't of course but just thought I'd prempt the Americans getting out of bed.

[hval]

Ar1,

A Hawk would beat a Raptor hands down. If the Raptor managed to get off the ground it would probably posion the pilot due to noxious fumes.

[Jimlad1]

Neither - the mighty SHAR woke from its slumber and shot them both when they weren't looking, prior to giving a world class aerobatics display which ended with sky writing saying 'Fly Navy, Screw Sharkey'... :E

[Mike7777777]

Neither - the mighty SHAR woke from its slumber and shot them both when they weren't looking, prior to giving a world class aerobatics display which ended with sky writing saying 'Fly Navy, Screw Shark

<SHAR exits stage left, bowing to the audience..>

[glad rag]

Hmm does the tiffie have a HMS? :E:E:E [one of the Elgin test firings from an F16]

http://www.ausairpower.net/asraam-F5-Collage.jpg

Guess the video of the U turn must still be classified :D

Matra-BAe AIM-132 ASRAAM ASRAAM - The RAAF's New WVR AAM (http://www.ausairpower.net/API-ASRAAM-Analysis.html)

[yes I know]

[El Grifo]

I suspect that they chose the "over Hawick" arena due to the fact that if anything fell from the sky no great loss would occur :E

Cheers

Pailmerk

[Wholigan]

Just gimme a Hunter any day.

I may not get round to killing you any more, but I'll sure die looking prettier than you lot! :E

[Dan Gerous]

I suspect that they chose the "over Hawick" arena due to the fact that if anything fell from the sky no great loss would occur http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

It would be a vast improvement. :)

Not an expert on the subject, but the two Hawks were trying to keep in close to the Typhoon, but it just kept pulling tight turns and losing them. It wasn't as good as the 2 Lightnings and at least 3 Phantoms I saw many years ago from almost the same spot, but they were a lot lower. The whole town may not have seen it, but they heard it.

[El Grifo]

That is the only thing, the ONLY thing I miss, about moving out of the Borders !

[LOAgent]

A kill's a kill.

Whilst I completely agree with the statement above (and the enormous fun one), I'll clarify my intent.

Shouldn't our Typhoon mates be able to mnvr to a wez and kill a HOBS capable, modern IR missile equipped bandit as opposed to a boresight only capable, legacy IR missile equipped one?

I suspect that they do indeed train to it and are proficient at it.

[orca]

Whilst you are not wrong, the use of Hawk as a training aid is still valid as it teaches a 'honour both - kill one' discipline and also the critical skill of identifying when the bandit(s) is/are about to achieve sensor lock of some description. This will change with the threat but the principle remains the same.

As regards proficiency I reckon that if (for whatever reason*) you end up in the WVR fight with a fighter with a helmet cued weapon it would be a fairly tricky day at the office Typhoon or not.

*= stacks of scenarios that would lead to it and stacks of reasons as to why they wouldn't.

[Courtney Mil]

That's completely correct. There are, as you say, numerous scenarios, but if the low-tech pair do their job properly (depending on the set-up, obviously), the hi-tech/HOBS jet should be able to kill one whilst the other kills him. They need to be quick and well coordinated, though, because the Typhoon can out-rate them and quickly use its HOBS capability. It's a bit academic really because one has to ask, how did they get there in the first place and why is the Typhoon alone? It's still a good academic excercise for both parties.

But it's all in the set-up or it's, "Fight's on. Fox Two, Fox Two, kill, kill. Stop, stop, stop."

Nice article on ASRAAM there. The "over-the-shoulder" shot isn't quite as straight forward as they suggest. In that diagram the other ac should have had a shot in the air ages ago - if nothing else, to make the DAS start doing its job.

[LOAgent]

As regards proficiency I reckon that if (for whatever reason*) you end up in the WVR fight with a fighter with a helmet cued weapon it would be a fairly tricky day at the office Typhoon or not.

It is indeed very tricky (although well within the art of the possible) and hence something that needs to be trained against, I would argue, a high proportion of the time when doing these types of sorties.

It's a bit academic really because one has to ask, how did they get there in the first place and why is the Typhoon alone?

I don't think it's quite as academic as the general opinion (and I was one of them for a while) used to assume that it was. Modern threats are making these scenarios a very real possibility especially at later stages of vuls. In addition one doesn't have to put too many restrictions on ROE/ID to up the likelihood even more.

[orca]

I think we all agree. It would be nice to think that all intercepts were started at the datum and a pleasant trundle down the timeline later the baddies were in bits/ floating toward the earth and the Typhoon chaps were on their way home for tea, medals and to find out why 3 - 6 went u/s on taxy and missed the fun.

Even in this day and age there will be leakers, either from low CAPs or from strip alert launching after OCA have swept past. It might be that the guys are actually egressing and in 'closing the door' you get mixed up with no Fox 3 left.

As Courtney says, a great exercise in any case. I assume the Typhoon was down low iot perfect the KRET pop?;)

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

the Typhoon needs to stop picking on the little kids in the playground and find something better to play fight with.

Like what? A GR4? That would be like picking on the fat kid in the playground...:ok:

[LOAgent]

Ouch!

Mind you, give them proper helmet to go with their ASRAAM and it probably wouldn't matter quite so much how 'fat' they were. Bloody good at blowing people up and breaking their stuff though, even without a HMCS.

[BEagle]

But it's the one you don't see who gets you!

About a million years ago self+nav were out over the North Sea on some ADEX or other in the mighty F-4. A brief radar sweep and the nav thought he saw something low and fast. We were anticipating some Danish F-16s, so rather than race in for the usual 150 ARA only to get waxed if he spotted us, we nipped down to low level before creeping round in a hugely wide stern attack... Sure enough, an RDAF F-16 on his own belting in towards the coast. Tempting as it was to have at him immediately, we went deep into his six, then slowly crept forward to formate up on his left wing. After about 30 sec he obviously had one of those 'feelings in the water' as he looked round and saw us waving politely - he knew he'd been had!

One of the newest jets around at the time, yet still defeated by low cunning and treachery! 'twill oft be thus.

[Courtney Mil]

Style, friend. Style!

[typerated]

About 2 years ago I saw a pair of F3s on CAP in the Eden valley. Backwards and forwards they went for 30mins. The only intercept they made was on one of those Irish-Brazilian turboprop thingies - I imagine the poor stude had a lecture on lookout after they overtook him.

Still, made me think it was about 20 years behind the times setting up a CAP and hoping for passing trade!

[Pontius Navigator]

Olympic workup, mentioned on the news this morning. Probably the same with the Hawk v Helo only there the Hawk was probably the hunter.

[HTB]

PN

Apologies if this a tangential departure (key words trigger memories): I was at an air show in 1971 - Church Fenton - in the days when you could wander all over the field (apart from the active runway/taxiways), when a Nimrod carried out a few lowish passes. Ah, says I out loud, to no one in particular, "the mighty hunter". Spotter festooned with cameras, pin badges, ghillies vest, silly hat and all, looked at me askance and piped up "that's a Nimrod, mate, 'unters are a lot smaller". W(h)ither the classical education...?:hmm:

Mister B

[airpolice]

This wil have been the reason for them being there:


Royal Air Force and Royal Navy aircraft are in operation over the skies of Yorkshire as part of a major training exercise to prepare for this year's Olympic Games.


http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/TrainingAndAdventure/GenerateThumbnail.aspx?imageURL=/NR/rdonlyres/60C4755F-2FF9-4381-BBBC-1598FF6632CC/0/CONUNCLASS20120125123062.jpg&maxSize=210 (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/TrainingAndAdventure/LargeImageTemplate.aspx?img=/NR/rdonlyres/60C4755F-2FF9-4381-BBBC-1598FF6632CC/0/CONUNCLASS20120125123062.jpg&alt=A 3 Squadron Typhoon aircraft from RAF Coningsby) A 3 Squadron Typhoon aircraft from RAF Coningsby takaing part in Exercise Taurus Mountain 1
[Picture: Senior Aircraftman Graham Taylor, Crown Copyright/MOD 2012]

In the latest familiarisation drill, aimed at ensuring the British Armed Forces play an effective supporting role in the police-led security effort, military pilots will practise their skills and drills over a three-day period.
Codenamed Exercise Taurus Mountain 1, and taking place from 24 to 26 January 2012, it will see fast jet and helicopter pilots put through their paces as they practise operating alongside one another. Other military aircraft will also take part in the exercise in supporting roles.


Eventually the Vale of York will be full of other traffic and the fight moves north.

Either that or in preparation for Scottish Independence, the RAF are practising in the potential AOR should it come to that. ;)

[orca]

So how have we arrived at this conclusion?

The 2 v 1 ivo Hawick is definitely part of a pre-Olympic exercise in Yorkshire?

Not saying it's not a possibility, but it could be a 2 v 1 (which is an every day event) for any number of reasons.

Unless we now only have one Typhoon, and the threat assessment for the Olympics has come up with a single QRA jet vs 2 Fox 2 shooters as the most likely enemy/ terrorist COA.

I'm personally going to bet against it. Happy to be proven incorrect.:)

[Pontius Navigator]

orca, you may be correct as the OP was the 23rd and the exercise quoted started on the 24th. Equally there is no reason to suppose that the OP referred to training prior to the exercise starting.

Training is the practice of procedures. Exercise if the testing and evaluation of the procedures. They may seem similar but the exercise is not designed to train but to evaluate.

[orca]

Completely agree old chap. In the case of QRA versus jet we know exactly what to do, when and how. (i.e. no need to exercise - we do it all the time) If anything the olympics makes it slightly easier as we may have a steer as to what a possible target would be.

In fact the 'business end' of an actual interception is probably the least valuable bit. The valuable bit is the exercising of the decision making process to launch and control fast air.

As regards co-operation with the police, using fast air for NTISR, SH for support or mobility, E-3 for strategic pie eating ;) etc I fully understand the need to exercise.

I have now convinced myself that this has nothing to do with a 2 v 1 over the borders.