NATS Staff leaving

[DC10RealMan]

I have noticed over the past two or three years many NATS staff, particularly members of the ATSA and engineering grades leaving due to redundancy, early retirement or other reasons.

These members of staff have been the backbone of the CAA and NATS for many decades.

I suspect, although I may be wrong that these hundreds of people have left NATS without any kind of acknowledgment or even thank you in the official methods of communication such as Airway, Pulse, or whatever it is called nowadays.

I however, have worked with quite a few and I would like to personally thank them for their comradeship, camaraderie, professional skill, and true friendship that has continued to this day.

Never a day goes by that I thank my lucky stars that I was allowed to be a member of such a team of great people.

Tony Fallows
Cheshire

[055166k]

Your paragraph 3 has it about right. I remember a controller leaving after 38 years, during which he had taken only 5 [yes..FIVE] days sickness........just walked out of the door......loved and respected by colleagues.......just a number to the "suits".
I miss your Hawaiian shirt selections that brightened up the day, but not your knees..........live long and prosper. rgds Coach

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Yep, all I got from HR when I left was a memo reminding me to hand in my pass and headset!!! At least the people I worked with, including my Watch Boss, did considerably better. Years later I discovered that nobody had told LATCC management that it was my last day.... Echoing what Tony said, the 31 years I spent at Heathrow and LTCC were the best working days of my life among the very best people on this earth.

[Mr_Grubby]

The day I walked out of LATCC after 32 years, my TC Manager & my watch manager both refused to come down the pub for a drink. They said it would not be appropriate.

B*st*rds. I will never forget that.

Clint. Gurry.

[Baileys]

Better off without d*ckheads like that anyway.

[10 DME ARC]

Clint
We worked with each other LATCC early eighties, glen ATCA D Watch then 64 ATCO Cadet.
That is disgusting, I left NATS after 10 years and my then boss acted very much the same told me that I would never work for NATS again, three weeks later I got a thank you letter from HR thanking me for my 10 years and if I ever want to work for NATS again give them a ring!!

[obwan]

All I want is a lump sum and the REGULAR payment on the first of the month, the rest you can shove.

[Brian 48nav]

When I left LATCC in 1980 prior to going to H&I, the Centre Superintendent, Keith Mack asked for me to call in as he wanted to wish me luck and say goodbye.

Different sort of managers in those days, dare I say Clint ,because most of them had started their careers in the military - people like Norman Whitelock, John Saker, Bert Harding etc.

The managers from No 2 cadet course onwards have in the main been selfish and frightened of their own shadows.

[Vercingetorix]

Mr_Grubby aka Clint

As you know I resigned from NATS in 1995 and went overseas, this after 28 years and 200+ days. The top LATCC managment were very good offering me the option to come back and straight in at my previous level if the overseas contract didn't work out. Couldn't fault them. Good guys. Both Mr D and Mr L.

The down side was the local watch management as in Mr Wobbley and his Masonic colleagues who were frankly pathetic. Having a masonic handshake and/or big tits were guarantees of promotion.

Also, in my letter from HR they couldn't spell my name correctly. This after 28 years. Again pathetic.

Not quite sure that I agree with Brian 48nav re managers from No 2 Cadet course onwards. I would suggest from No 6 course onwards.

Cheers:ok:

P.S. NATS then were an OK outfit to work for but as obwan says: "All I want is a lump sum and the REGULAR payment on the first of the month, the rest you can shove".

[Minesthechevy]

Brian, I had the same thing in 1985 when I left for LL. It'd be unheard of now...

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Norman Whitelock was my first Watch Sup at Heathrow. A real gent who could do every job in the ops room from Supervisor, through the radar positions, to ATSA. Watching him strip bashing to get an ATSA away on an EG was something to behold.

When I left my then boss - Dave Rushton - came to the pub and delivered a very interesting and amusing speech for which I was very grateful.

[chevvron]

When I left after 39 yrs 8 mths, all I got was a photograph of the control tower(which I wouldn't even take inside my house), followed some 2 months later by a 'good luck' card.
Absolutely nothing from management even though I'd offered to stay on as I knew they'd be short of experienced/validated staff(they agreed but on their terms which were not my terms) and according to what I hear, they're still short of staff so it's their loss.

[beaver liquor]

Some guys out of the ATSA/ MSG grades went out to Dubai in the last year, so some folks escaped Nats not just for retirement or voluntary redundancy but for career reasons.

A general trend is that Nats has not replaced anybody who left and consequently the ones left behind are doing more work with less pairs of hands to help!:ugh:

[SwanFIS]

40 years man and boy in NATS and when I left in November no management said thank you.

The people who did were the AC bods, controllers and assistants, that I had worked with over the years and for that I was very grateful. The important people said thank you, as for the others, I couldn't give a toss, they don't.

David Reavell

[BDiONU]

Some guys out of the ATSA/ MSG grades went out to Dubai in the last year, so some folks escaped Nats not just for retirement or voluntary redundancy but for career reasons.

A general trend is that Nats has not replaced anybody who left and consequently the ones left behind are doing more work with less pairs of hands to help!:ugh:
I'm one who left and the 'business' couldn't afford to replace the 2 in my dept who left, 1 who went to a different dept and 1 vacancy never filled. It's very interesting working for a different company :ok:

BD

[fisbangwollop]

Don't they give you a catalogue after 25 years with various things like jewellery and white goods you can claim as a gift?

Yes they do, they also after 25 years treat you and your partner to a posh night out at a posh hotel with other folk in the same boat......The only problem for me is by the time they brought in the Hotel night package I had already passed my 25 years so missed out on the deal. :{Despite a few attempts on our Intranet site to whinge about missing out on that ( those that know me will tell you whinging is my favourite pastime):E I am still waiting my invite.:*

To be honest when I leave if no one from Management says goodbye well that will be their loss and not mine....:rolleyes:the one thing about the job is the people you work with and I can honestly say the operations folk in NATS in general are some of the best.....:ok:characters one and all and my life would have been a lot sadder if I had missed out on the life I have had. :cool:

[Spitoon]

When I left, after three and a bit years of service, I remember the boss calling me into his office for a chat. He said I could either resign or have my contract terminated.

[throw a dyce]

I was told by my GM to find another job.I'm an ATCO with 32 years experience,more than capable of maintaining currency etc,and was treated like something that the dog vomitted on the floor.
So I just walked out,and let them get on with it.I'm away from all the C:mad:p,and back in ATC with another employer who treats me like a human being.
I hear that my old NSL unit has had more people leave,and the roster is falling to bits.Oh dear,what a pity,never mind.:{

[Rule3]

TAD...... Where are you now?

[DC10RealMan]

I just think that it is rather sad that a whole group of employees numbering in their hundreds are leaving NATS and that it does not rate a mention in the staff newspaper as it is the end of an era.

I wonder if the editor is Professor Pangloss?

[ZOOKER]

Do they still produce a staff newspaper?
If so, how do you receive copies of it?
'Airway', 'Airspace' and 'NATS News' were available at the units and I believe, posted to retired staff who requested them.

[radarman]

DC10,

The guys who are leaving are the professionals who made NATS what it is today. The aviation enthusiasts with strength and depth of character, individuality, the courage to stand up for what they believed is best for British ATC, and who thoroughly enjoyed their job. In short, just the type that modern management abhors. That's why there's no mention of them. Management are glad to be rid of them, and simply waiting for the day every controller will be a GM puppet, unquestioningly obeying every corporate diktat.

[cambioso]

Well, during my 22 years at Heathrow, I consider that I was a willing GM puppet, I unquestioningly obeyed every corporate diktat etc etc..........and it didn't do me any harm.
Happy New Year everyone!!!!
Jezza.
;-)

[blueskythinking]

radarman. times have changed and we are in a different world now. Todays controllers are less beligerent than some of the older guys but thats not always a bad thing.Did you really think things would continue as they were ? I know in my 25 years they have changed massively but never thought it would last forever. It doesnt mean todays guys are weak or wimpish but have to operate in a very different world with very different pressures. you should just be grateful you had the best of times . I would hate to be entering the job now. Its going to be a very different role in the years to come.

[gnatsp]

I don't think anyone was implying any criticism of the new generation. I personally take my hat off to them. I think they're just as professional as we ever were, perhaps more, they certainly do a job that I couldn't do anymore !
They probably don't play french cricket or volleyball in the ops room and it's unlikely that a guy called Eric would kick their feet off the chair when they fall asleep in the FIR
I wonder if the Red Baron and North Sea parrot migrated to NERC, the Clacton Belle probably didn't make it. I doubt anyone tries to set fire to the ops room with a spirit powered steam train and there's no strip holders to build bridges out of anymore.
Did anyone do a poll to see whose "Thanks a Million" clock lasted longest? Mine lasted a week.

Tony, to go back to your original point, publishing departures is something that should be asked of the individual concerned. I'm sure there are some who wish to just slip quietly out the door.

I retired in '99 and was actually presented with an engraved tin mug. What really p***ed me off was not being allowed to return to the ops room to say goodbye. So goodbye !

My first post here btw, so hello.

[Brian 48nav]

Jez, I've just sprayed my tea all over Anne's laptop, wait till she sees you again!

Anyway I thought most of your 22 years were done by other people!

HNY Brian

[Avman]

Recently completed 40 years service with Eurocontrol. Not a single word of acknowledgement by the Organisation. In these modern times managers are totally devoid of even the basic people skills - and loyalty is a dirty word.

A couple of years ago, by contrast, the very first Director of the Maastricht UAC, who is long retired - and whom I have no social contact with whatsoever, called me at home to congratulate me on my 60th birthday! They certainly don't make them like that any more.

[Loki]

Jez was always a company man, it's just that we were never sure which company.

[Numpo-Nigit]

> Did anyone do a poll to see whose "Thanks a Million" clock lasted longest? Mine lasted a week.

Mine is still going strong! Mind you, I've had to change the battery ...

[Minesthechevy]

<Anyway I thought most of your 22 years were done by other people!>

That would have been in the interests of aviation safety eh Jez ?JUST JOKING!!!!:ouch:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Oh happy days.... Jenks coming in late due to traffic jams and telling plod they couldn't organise, etc, etc..... on their frequency!!!!

IMc coming in drenched and stripping down to his knickers in Approach only to find visitors from the WVS peering down from the gallery with their eyes out on stalks!

AC using the megaphone from the 7th floor balcony to "broadcast" information about landing aircraft to the masses outside T2, much like the roof gardens commentators of old times.....

Presumably this sort of thing doesn't happen now?

[eastern wiseguy]

Presumably this sort of thing doesn't happen now?

So many things no longer happen in NATS. It is an animal which has changed beyond all recognition in the past ten years. I reckon it started with the Robber/Red Barron.

Frankly all I want is my lump sum monthly pension and the luxury of throwing the alarm clock out of the window at 0455 :ok:

[gnatsp]

" I reckon it started with the Robber/Red Barron."

I think it started with NATS. I don't remember any organizational whinges when it was CAA.

[Ayrshott]

I retired last year,after 45 years with NATS, (at SATCC, LATCC, `GP, `PF, and Scottish). On my last day, our GM (Pauline) came for a chat in the ops room.
Some managers know how to look after their staff.

[mts1]

45 years working for NATS!. Congrats for working for so many years and for the same company.

[401167H]

Having myself attended a few recent LL leaving-do's, I have noticed (with great pleasure :ok:) that the biggest smiles were worn by those who had already cast off the work shackles, whatever their individual reasons were for leaving.

I also note that I have yet to meet anybody within this group who has admitted to any regrets about their departure from the Company, apart from the loss of the regular at-work comradeship. It may be scary for those leaving the Company for any reason other than reaching normal retirement, but believe me, life does go on after NATS!

The lack of Mgmt attendees at these gatherings was unsurprising :hmm: but did make for a more enjoyable atmosphere down t'pub! (and probably saved a few 'targets' from some well-aimed and honest home truths from certain quarters! :E :E)

[eastern wiseguy]

I think it started with NATS.

I disagree.....I have only worked in NATS and NATS when it was a joint CAA/MOD organisation. I feel strongly that the change set in when the train people pitched up....I was only surprised that they didn't make us clock in!!

[gnatsp]

I don't know what "train people " means so I'm going to be more specific about what I mean.

"Originally a function within the UK's CAA (Civil Aviation Authority), NATS (National Air Traffic Services) became a separate entity in 1996. When the UK Government part-privatised NATS in 2001, NATS was granted a licence by the Secretary of State for Transport to provide services in en route and oceanic airspace."

From my perspective that was the start. The separation and preparation for privatization was IMO and the opinion of many of us at the time, what led to changes which to us were unacceptable.

IMO it caused a rush of piglets to the trough and the stilettos came out of the closet. It led certain watch managers to pursue their own advancement at the expense of running their watches and from that moment the staff ceased to be people and became commodities.


So for me it began slightly prior to 96.

[nicholasdaber]

Gentlemen, an interesting thread but what a familiar tale.
When I started work over 30 years ago for a Government organisation I had a “boss” who cared – if you’d been off sick he was anxious that you hadn’t returned to work too early and if you had family problems (e.g. sick parents) he was willing to let you have time off.

Today a different story altogether. The department has a myriad of “ticky box” policies that they are so proud of and give the mandarins that warm feel good feeling. Managers profess that “our staff are our most important and valuable asset but what shameful deceit that is. A colleague who had been in the service 46 years retired in November having held a senior position. During his last twelve months he had a total of three weeks off when his wife suddenly died and subsequently his 90 year old father. During those 12 months he also had several days off through sickness and to reward him for his service the management threatened to invoke the competence procedure for cumulative absences!!!

At present we can’t even take our annual leave entitlement because staffing numbers have been cut to the bone.

So gentlemen you aren’t alone in feeling unwanted, uncared for and for being nothing more than an “employee number”. And for heavens sake don’t die at your desk since that may be a disciplinary issue!!

[eastern wiseguy]

Gnatspee...when Barron arrived he arrived from Alstom......he brought a lot of his cronies with him......he brought a lot of techniques to "modernise" and make the "business" more efficient. I believe he made NATS into a totally different beast......and that has continued (not all for the good)

Alstom make trains.

[mts1]

You know, I am current candidate for NATS ATC in the selection process. When I read all these comments they obviously don't come to me as an incentive. But then ofcourse, I guess that whatever job or professional you become, there is always going to be a group of people who are not happy. It is impossible to keep all the staff pleased.

Yet, I do question myself the following, does the whole sum of unsatisfied staff at NATS ATC compose a higher percentage than any other company of similar nature?. If so, not good.

[gnatsp]

To put your mind at rest mts1, I've also worked for a short period for Airservices and despite what may appear dissatisfaction with NATS i can assure you that Airservices are worse.

Remember also that this thread is largely retired people comparing "the good old days" of our youth. So the grumbles you're reading should be balanced by the opinions of younger people currently working.

(edit) wow 4 posts and I'm no longer probationary.

[obwan]

Mts1 Don't let the moaners put you off. It's abrilliant job and NATS probably better employer than most, not all management are useless.

[Tigersaw]

It was reported in 'SMUT' many moons ago that a certain engineer was asked what he thought of NATS management in an interview.
'I think its a wonderful idea' he replied.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

mts1. Do what I did for 31 years - go to work, talk to the planes and come home. Don't become involved in anything else at all. Worked for me.

[Minesthechevy]

mts1

I'm echoing what HD has said - there wasn't, for me, any better job in view. It was only the general management ethos, and the actions of a VERY few individual 'managers' who ruined life.

[mts1]

Thanks to all for responses. I take note.

[radarman]

HD,

Quote: Do what I did for 31 years - go to work, talk to the planes and come home. Don't become involved in anything else at all.

Don't know whether it's possible to do that in 21st century NATS. At my unit everyone had what the military call 'secondary duties': Training Officer, Standards, UCE, Safety Officer, Aerodrome Manual author, Document Impact Assessor, Safety Services Liaison, Airfield Driving Licences, Briefings, Incident Investigator etc etc, plus whatever project or initiative the GM wanted to delegate. Certainly anyone who progresses to the ranks of Watch Management will spend a vast proportion of their time on non-headset activities. Just talking to the planes and going home for 31 years will nowadays see you very much out of favour, and at the back of the queue for any courses, privileges or perks. (Not that NATS management believes in privileges or perks :E :E)

[Not Long Now]

Most certainly is possible. After 20 years with NATS my duties now consist of going to work, talking to some aircraft, going home. No instructing, assessing, verifying, investigating, developing, drafting, briefing, rostering or indeed anything. I suppose that makes me a bad team player. Oh well.

[Eric T Cartman]

The scene : Annual Staff Report Interview
GenMgr : "Well, the point is Cartman, you've done jolly well this year with your controlling - in fact you've done more SRA's than anyone & I've had good reports about your vectoring. The problem is that that I've marked down your Key Performance Indicator on your personal development needs !"
ETC : "Beg your pardon sir but I don't understand !
GM : "You have personal development needs in the areas of instructing, assessing, verifying, investigating, risk assessment, instruction drafting, team briefing and rostering"
ETC : "But sir, with all due respect, I'm an ATCO and I believe I'm pretty good at it too - my job is to expedite and maintain a safe and orderly flow of air traffic ! "
GM : "That's all very well Cartman but we senior managers have much broader issues to consider - you need to buck up lad !

Sounds familiar ? :sad:

[ZOOKER]

Mr. Cartman.
Loving your work. :ok:

[Talkdownman]

Mr. Cartman, in your very realistic scenario the 'manager' is the one who should be marked down for not facilitating your personal development from the outset.

Just talking to the planes and going home for 31 years will nowadays see you very much out of favour, and at the back of the queue for any courses, privileges or perks.
nats just want b u ms in seats. The more validations one accrues the less likely one can be released for 'courses, privileges or perks'.

Fail to succeed...

[fisbangwollop]

Eric T Cart.........you still get my vote for one of the friendliest ATCO's I have to talk to in the line of duty......not bad for an old bugger like you!!:ok:

[ZOOKER]

"Another One Bites The Dust".

So sang Freddie Mercury a few years ago.

Sadly, this seems to be the theme song at NATS these days.

When will this "Global Leader In Air traffic Management And Airport Performance", wake-up, smell the proverbial coffee, and take notice of Joni's words, from Big Yellow Taxi.
"You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone"?

Lots of home-grown talent going to waste. - A shame.

[mts1]

ZOOKER: Would you mind being a bit more specific??. This interests me. .Thanks

[autolycus224]

I spent 9 years as a "Siggy", 19 years as ATCO (Gatters and LATCC) and 12 years at EUROCONTROL. Still recall the early days of ASRs. Called in and told I was "argumentative". We argued the point and he changed it!
When I left, I paid for the party! Director couldn't make it.............!
Still the best job ever and would do it all again!

[windowjob]

Big problem seemed to be that management went on all sorts courses to learn how (not) to become business managers and then tried to impose such stuff all the way down complete with Targets, KPI's, objectives, personal development yak yak yak

They totally lost sight of the fact that we need Controllers, Assistants and Engineers who just wanted to do as HD - come in, do a good job and go home.
They seemed to think it was a failure if you (speaking as as a Watch Mngr) didn't get everyone fighting among themselves to take on all sorts of extra stuff, coming in on days off etc.

Some of the better times I had was the last few months before I retired when I handed over to my successor, came in, talked to planes, went home happy and relaxed - and remembered that was what I joined for.
Those who want to do the same are seen as subversives rather than "team players" by the suits.

[Dan Dare]

:D Windowjob - couldn't have put it better myself :D

KPIs should be banned, but seem to ruin everything at the moment from schools to health service to policing and now they're coming to an ops room near you :ugh:

[boristhebike]

Hello Clint you old sod. Dave Howells here. I came across the interchange you had with chevvron (haven't found out who he is yet) re my working for Nat Somers as manager of Panshanger. I've actually sent you a seperate text re this.

My abiding memory of you is that we got pissed on a freebie to Jersey and you and Pete were holding me up, one on each arm. On trying to cross the A4 to get back to Feltham, I fell forward and neither of you were kind enough to release my arms, thus ensuring that the first thing that hit the tarmac was my chin.

Am still in touch with Rob Drew.

Get in touch if you read this - [email protected]

Cheers old son

[clicker]

To cheer you up I thought I would let you know that it's not only NAT's management with the wrong attitude towards leavers.

When I decided to retire after 24 1/2 years service I sent an email to my section supervisor, room manager, her deputy as well as the head of department and his deputy.

My section supervisor and my head of department were top of the class. The latter was old school and came to see me and have a chat within a week of my email to make sure I was making the right choice etc. His deputy said he would visit on last day minus one, and didn't. My room manager was on leave but did send me an email but her deputy didn't even reply to my email and ignored me on the few times before I left when my shifts happen to be the same as her 9-5 mon-fri.

Only my shift supervisor came to my leaving do and two years later I've not bee replaced either (HM Goverment cost cutting).

[Vulcan Lover]

Please don't judge all ATCO management by NATS standards. If you work for SafeSkys you will recive an annual birthday card, a hamper at Christmas and check out how they treat their retiring staff below. Scroll down to Ben Bedi's farewell.

News ¦¦ Safeskys - Leading from the ground up ¦¦ Air Traffic Control Services (http://www.safeskys.co.uk/News.aspx)

[DC10RealMan]

Speaking personally I would have liked an "Thank you" "Please" or even a "Well Done" instead of expensive gifts or nights out, however welcome.

[Plain Crazy]

I'm quite sure the main problem with NATS is the age old problem of "those that can, do and those that can't, manage"- anyone who is any good enjoys their controlling and wants to stay at the frontline. Those that are terrible, don't enjoy it and want to get promoted out of the job. They eventually do and end up managing those that can actually do the job and therein lies the problem....

[Vulcan Lover]

You have missed the point. NATS do not manufacture anything, they only employ people. Therefore their only resource is people. They should nurture their resource and look after all the people whom they employ.

Remember International Aeradio Ltd (IAL) ? They were great and caring employers, which sadly changed when they were purchased by Serco.

It’s a classic case of management taking their eye off the ball and not understanding that their prime responsibility is to get the best out of their staff.

Managers should treat staff as they would wish to be treated.

The only way to get great results is to treat people as great assets.

We all know great SATCOs who we would follow and for whom we would work extra hard.

Lesson over !!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Remember International Aeradio Ltd (IAL) ? They were great and caring employers,>>

ROFL.... NOT the IAL I knew!!

[Mantovani]

At West Drayton I had a boss who threatened to go sick if anyone even thought of buying him a leaving card.

The idea of a presentation mortified him and on his last day he slipped out of the door 10 minutes before the end of the shift with a simple "Bye". No one ever heard a word from him again.

When I go I hope to do the same. I don't need my boss or my colleagues to thank me; I already know they appreciate me.