Oil analysis -- where?

[achimha]

Hi,

I'm looking for recommendations on where to send my oil samples for analysis. The market leader in Germany charges me € 62 + VAT which is a lot more than what our friends in the US pay.

Which companies do you use, how much does it cost and how do you ship your samples? I found some US companies that charge around $18 per analysis and ship their sets internationally (around $100) but it doesn't say whether the postage paid envelopes are for international mailing.

Thanks!
Achim

[wigglyamp]

We use a company in the UK. You can contact them at [email protected]
Web: Spectro Oil - Condition Monitoring Excellence (http://www.spectro-oil.com)

[peterh337]

I use Aviation Labs (http://www.avlab.com/aboutUs.asp) in the USA.

They sell prepaid kits.

A while ago I bought about 50 of these. I managed to sell some but still have more than I can use, so if anybody is interested... about £15 each. I paid quite a lot for the box to be shipped to the UK. At one time they were being sold by a UK outfit (now defunct) for £6.50 :)

[stickandrudderman]

A good question.

Wigglyamp, are you an individual or company? I've looked at your supplier's website and there's a "ask for a quote" icon but I would be interested to know what other people are paying before I do that.

Peter, I'm interested in your spare capacity and would like to know more.

Stick.

[wigglyamp]

We're a Part 145 and send samples on behalf of customers - both fixed and rotary. I'm not aware of the costs personally.

[peterh337]

Peter, I'm interested in your spare capacity and would like to know more.

Zeere izzz a simple solusssion to zis.... it izzz called eeeeemail :)

I rarely check PMs on here.

Just counted them; have about 10 spare.

[007helicopter]

Aircraft (http://www.blackstone-labs.com/aircraft.php)

Blackstone Labs in USA, I send from UK, very quick about about $38.00

[peterh337]

Those are very high prices some people are paying.

Even allowing for airmail to the USA (about £2) the Aviation Labs pricing is way lower.

Oil analysis is a good thing but you really need to do it at every oil change and look at the trends. A single sample will tell you if something is dramatically wrong but not a lot more.

[achimha]

I guess I will go for a US outfit then like Peter. The €73 kit from that German company people around here use looks like a complete rip off.

One of the I-get-you-anything-from-Spruce-just-pay-me-30% shops got this one at reasonable cost: AVIATION OIL ANALYSIS KIT from Aircraft Spruce EU (http://aircraftspruce.eu/AVIATION-OIL-ANALYSIS-KIT--08-00436.htm)

@peter337: do you still send in samples from every oil change? I'm on a 25h interval (previous owner has been doing that for 20+ years) so it adds up to a lot of parcels.

[peterh337]

Yes I do. The long term trend is the most valuable.

25hrs is quite a short interval. What I found is that the metal % (pro-rated per hour, obviously) starts to rise around the 50hr point, so I tend to do the 50hr checks early, say at 35 hrs.

[007helicopter]

We do every 50 hrs

[peterh337]

So would I, normally, but that is OK only if doing nothing but short local flights.

Let's say I am off on a trip to Greece, which is c. 20hrs airborne time. If the oil is at 40hrs, that will push it to 60, and I know from oil analysis experience (having once gone to ~55) that the oil will not be working at all well at 60hrs.

It's OK to do it occassionally, obviously (and it is possible legally on an N-reg) but if one keeps doing it, IMHO the eventual result will be a knackered engine.

I use Shell 15W/50, have done experiments alternating between that and Exxon Elite, and could not see any significant difference.

[A and C]

I would not go past 50 hours without changing the oil when running Aeroshell W15W50.

The reason for this is that the mineral part of this semi synthetic oil can no longer hold in suspension the lead blow by from the fuel. This results in the lead being sentrifuged out of the oil into the oil gallery's in the crankshaft reducing the diameter of the oil ways.

This is the reason Mobil 1 was withdrawn from the aviation market.

This is not a reason to not use Areoshell W15W50, it is a very good oil but like all things it has it's limitations, I run all four of my aircraft on W15W50 and have had no problems as long as the 50 hour oil change is done within the 50 hours.

[achimha]

I'm on AeroShell 15W50, too. The right oil and its additives is a rather religious topic. What I found interesting is this article from one of the US oil analysis labs: About Aircraft Oils (http://www.blackstone-labs.com/about-aircraft-oils.php)

It basically confirms what Peter said -- doesn't really matter which oil as long as you do not run it past 50h.

The previous owner of my plane (TR182 with O-540 + turbocharger) was on a 25h interval, he said it couldn't harm and that after about 25h, the engine started to consume oil which he thought means that some characteristics must have changed. My airplane oil after 25h looks worse than my car oil after 3 years...

On a side topic: what are the top mail order aviation supply outfits in the UK? I noticed that AeroShell is a lot cheaper in the UK (found transair.co.uk) and shipping doesn't cost much.

[mrmum]

AFE
Aeroshell Aviation Oil - afeonline.com, Europe's favourite online (http://www.afeonline.com/shop/index.php?cPath=65)
POOLEYS
Pooleys - Aeroshell (http://www.pooleys.com/prod_list.cfm?&PageNum_rs_product=2&product_category_id=50&product_sub_category_id=337)
FLIGHTSTORE
Aeroshell Piston Oil 15w/50 (http://www.flightstore.co.uk/AEROPIST/A21/)
PILOTWAREHOUSE (one to avoid perhaps)
http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/358267-pilotwarehouse-website-warnings-merged-2.html#post6916571

[mrmum]

A and C
This is not a reason to not use Areoshell W15W50, it is a very good oil but like all things it has it's limitations, I run all four of my aircraft on W15W50 and have had no problems as long as the 50 hour oil change is done within the 50 hours.
What are your thoughts on doing more frequent oil changes regularly, say every 25 hours, specifically for lycomings in club aircraft, O-235/-320/-360.
Would that change if the engine was using D80/W80?
Are 5hr extensions to 50/150 checks a bad thing then, is it always better to go early? Accept the check will cost more per hour, but is better for the engine long-term.

[achimha]

Thanks mrmum, at 18 GBP S&H, it's well worth ordering in the UK. 12 bottles of 15W50 cost 66 GBP at Flightstore vs. ca. 95 GBP in Germany. They will get my business next time.

For Lycoming engines, you need either an oil with additives according to Lycoming's service bulletin or a plain oil with an extra bottle of additives. Here's the service bulletin: http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/SI1014M.pdf

AeroShell 15W50 or W80 complies with Lycoming's SB whereas the plain 100 or 80 would not. W80 is a monograde oil and not suitable for cold temperatures.

[007helicopter]

I would agree with the not past 50 hours principle but would not get stressed with a couple over, we often do long trips and of course take into account how many hours are left as part of the flight planning and would have no hesitation bringing the change forward for the convenience of having it done prior to the trip.

Ultimately it is a great indicator of potential problems and gives you a trend of wear and tear so worth the effort and relative small cost to get analysed where ever you choose.

Blackstone Labs as I assume others do give pretty good back on the results.

[A and C]

I dont think that running over the 50 hour check is a big issue, depending on factors my aircraft get the oil change at anything between 45 & 55 hours but I try to make the oil change as close to 50 as I can.

In club aircraft the checks usually come around quite quickly so I would not change oil on an hourly basis, on aa engine that will only fly a few hours a month I would think about changing the oil at 3 month intervals on W80/100 or is months on W80/100 plus or W15W50.

[peterh337]

Isn't a G-reg grounded at 50hrs, unless you apply for the 5hrs extension?

[A and C]

Correct Peter but I just apply to myself!

Returning to the subject of the thread we use Intertec for spectro checking oil samples.

Intertek Farnborough FLC (http://www.intertek.com/petroleum/farnborough)

[mrmum]

A and C
Thanks for that, one more question if I may.
If a club aircraft does a lot of shorter (ie 15/20/30 mins) trial lessons, then the actual engine running time could be double what's entered in the tech. log and engine log book. Whereas, if it's doing IMCr training or longer cross-country trips, then the engine on time may only be 10% longer than the "flight" time. Would you say this should have an effect?
Also, does the cruise power setting (55%, 65%, 75%?) you regularly operate at have any effect?
Okay that's two I know, sorry.:ooh:

[peterh337]

The old debate of what time to log :)

For pilot logbook purposes, one logs brakes off to brakes on.

For aircraft maintenance purposes, one logs airborne time. That is good enough for the oil.

Where you don't quite trust people who fly the plane to tell the truth about the time, you might log "hobbs time" or whatever some cockpit instrument logs, which could be time with the oil pressure above X PSI, time above 1200rpm, or just a count of engine revolutions adjusted to hours at some standard RPM e.g. 2300.

Re power, nobody will really agree on this but I think there is a sort of consensus that 65% is the best power setting for a long engine life.

[A and C]

I don't think that the engine running time at low power settings has much effect on the engine life.

Flying at moderate power settings 60-65% power and slightly RoP is the best way to get an engine to TBO with the least maintenance cost. Settings of lower than 60% are good for endurance but are likely to result in high oil consumption due to the piston rings sticking and the cost of getting this fixed.

The very worst thing for engines is high power followed by rapid low power decents, an unskilled glider tug pilot could wreck a set of cylinders in no time. Fortunately the BGA has done a lot of work in this area and issued guidance to minimize the dangers of shock cooling but this is still the most hostile environment for an air cooled engine to operate in.

For the private owner operating at 75% power LoP is likely to be the most economical way to fly, the higher speed and shorter time in the air will keep the flight time based maintenance cost per ground mile down, being the only operator of the aircraft it is likely that he would be competent at mixture control and with fuel in Europe so expensive the savings running LoP are likely to more than pay for new cylinders at half TBO.

[mrmum]

A and C, thank you :ok:
Peter, I wasn't actually asking what or how to log times, I'm pretty clear on that thanks. Was just looking for an engineering perspective on the effects if any of taxi time on the engine. However, as you say, it's always nice to see old favourites from time to time.;)
What's the best headset and GPS?:E