Qantas faces more competition through China

[Wedcue]

Surely, surely this has got to be the nail??

From theaustralian.com (http://www.theaustralian.com)



China Southern set to take on Qantas

Damon Kitney
January 20, 2012 12:00AM
QANTAS faces more competition on its flagship kangaroo route between Australia and Europe after China Southern, the sixth-biggest airline in the world, this week announced plans to fly between its Guangzhou hub and London's Heathrow Airport.
Labelling the new sector "the Canton route", China Southern executive vice-president He Zongkai said he hoped the new London service and additional frequent capacity to Amsterdam and Paris from Guangzhou would provide a compelling alternative for Australian travellers to Europe.


Time to do something AJ and co, like yesterday, perhaps!?

[hongkongfooey]

That's great, only one problem.....you have to fly with China Southern.
Good luck :ok:

[TBM-Legend]

Today's SMH:
China Southern alone has increased flights between Australia and China from 10 a week two years ago to 35, and has vowed to triple them to more than 110 within the next four years.

Read more: International surge pulls airports out of nosedive (http://www.smh.com.au/business/international-surge-pulls-airports-out-of-nosedive-20120119-1q8j3.html#ixzz1jwhu9ihj)

[AROVET LI]

China is a huge potential market and what is QF doing about it?

A quote I read the other day was more in terms of self defence but relates just as well to aviation.

"Retaliate before your opponent strikes"

In other words strike first and be pro active instead of always chasing your tail by being reactive.

[Ngineer]

Winding up our fleet, cutting services out of our overseas hubs, relying on 2 aircraft types for our flagship carrier, relying on a no-frills carrier, selling out on our proud Aussie reputation for safety, etc etc etc....

Should see us sitting pretty when global growth resumes.:rolleyes:

[Metro man]

China Southern can be very price competitive, a recent search for SIN-LAX return had them as the cheapest by a large amount. Obviously they've looked at CX in HKG and decided to have a piece of the pie.

With Chinese mainland costs being well below Hong Kongs, the Guangzhou region having a per capita income close to western levels and a modern airport not subject to the congestion and delays of Beijing/Shanghai, they could be in with a chance.

FEDEX are already using CAN as their Asian hub, Hong Kong and Shenzhen are next door.

Obviously the have plans for the A380s, China's answer to Emirates/Singapore Airlines if they can improve the customer service a bit ?

[goodonyamate]

Shrinking our fleet alright...

Was in at QCC yesterday, and we are now losing 7 400's this year...not 4.

More routes to go.....:cool::eek::mad:

[The Green Goblin]

Yep management don't want any more rollers going bang bang.

Rather than lose face by waiting in queue for an engine shop to fix them (as they shut down their own capability) they decided to boot the entire frames instead.

Qantas management 101 :{

[inandout]

Hench the problem VA . Both QF and VA are facing ever increaseing international competion from carriers with lower costs and now Air Asia X to SYD. As one pointed out, who from a technical view would want to fly with these guys-but unfortunately the public mostly just look at price. This is why VA is only doing Domestic with the 330 and little or no expansion for the 777. Unlike the car industry we are not a political Labour flavour.
What's the answer, Options are- Stay out of this area :ok:, Do A Jet Star :mad:, buy Airport shares :E.

[Sue Ridgepipe]

As one pointed out, who from a technical view would want to fly with these guys
I hope you're referring to Qantas when you make this staement. Let's face it, with their recent track record I'm sure you've got more chance of getting safely to your destination on time with China Southern than you have with Qantas.

[Akali Dal]

Rather than lose face by waiting in queue for an engine shop to fix them (as they shut down their own capability) they decided to boot the entire frames instead.

Oops, I thought westerners never lose face. They have so thick skins and are impervious to criticism which they take so constructively as to construct great spin " air legends " out of adversities. Looks like they have caught onto the " lose face " thingy like " Asian flu ".

I hope you're referring to Qantas when you make this staement. Let's face it, with their recent track record I'm sure you've got more chance of getting safely to your destination on time with China Southern than you have with Qantas.

Now, you have seen the light. Bravo!

[buttmonkey1]

once you have people like the indian aviation authority pinging your
fleet for it's grubby appearance you know your doing well in the race
to the bottom.

[Dora-9]

Yes, but it is China Southern. Has anyone actually flown with them?

I've had the misfortune to do so twice, the last time admittedly 5 yeas ago (my employer made me do this).

On both occasions a B744:

1. Entire cabin dirty and stank of urine.
2. Toilets indescribable.
3. Cabin service - I thought they'd finally mastered the art of inserting Rottweilers into an FA uniform. The only English word spoken: "NO!".
4. I didn't touch the food; it looked OK actually.
5. Life jacket RIVETTED in their containers (probably because the locals kept stealing them) - so what happens should you need one?

Never again!

[stubby jumbo]

'.....whilst not having had the "pleasure" of flying with China Southern. I have flown with 2 other airlines as part of the CAAC group.

Air China are the standout for improvement (could be somehow related to their tie up with CX). I had 3 flights with them last year to Beijing (because QF reckon Shanghai is THE ONLY chinese port to have the red tail in :mad::ugh: ) But, CA were great. Te A330-200 kit is clean, comfortable and reliable. Service is friendly and efficient and the airport is superb !

To me, CA is the bigger threat because the Beijing hub and feeder destinations are wider than EK :ok:.....

TO....AJ AND THE "OCCUPIERS" of QCA/9........your days are numbered.
Hell, even airlines like China Southern are comIng up with (wait for it )
A FORWARD STRATEGY, that is = GROWTH.

the QF "strategy" is one ...hell bent on wingeing, slashing, mumbling,dithering and prematurely letting their load off without any fore-"thought".

Quick......pass the NASAL DELIVERY SPRAY.:)

[Dangnammit]

We all know the authority gradient in asian carriers.
Some of these cadets should be flippin' burgers, not switches. I've seen some pretty ordinary siht from some cadets (most are pretty switched on though).
One day, all the holes will align, imho.

Good luck to them all as the management there is increasing capacity with lower fares. That's increase, not decrease! (Didn't someone from qantas say it was too hard?)

Let's see what the cronies do?

[blacksmoke]

Have flown with them a few times of late. All on airbus fleet, and found them very clean, tidy and the service was great!!! Maybe a few so called premium carriers (qf,vb etc) could take a few lessons from these guys....

[Metro man]

They come out reasonably well in the SKYTRAX reviews.

China Southern Airlines official 4-Star Ranking | SKYTRAX (http://www.airlinequality.com/Airlines/CZ.htm)

Could be worth a look if the fares are cheap enough with decent connections. Flight times should be the same as via Hong Kong.

I hear they have recruited Australian pilots for a Sydney base.

[dr dre]

They come out reasonably well in the SKYTRAX reviews.

Might want to take a look at the customer reviews, the ones that CZ cant influence, pax seem to have a different idea:

China Southern Airlines Customer Reviews | SKYTRAX (http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/c_sthrn.htm)

[Iver]

I can't believe many Europeans fly Qantas to get to China. That seems too far out of the way. I am thinking the European legacies and the Chinese airlines tap most of that Europe-China traffic - no?

And don't call me Shirley... :p

[gobbledock]

I wonder if Lord Farquhar and his band of bloated merry Board gimps have a contingency plan or have done a business based risk assessment on the following possible scenarion?
If not, it seems now may be a good time to do so, you just never know, to be sure:

Bird flu claims second victim in China
AFPUpdated January 23, 2012, 12:59 am


BEIJING (AFP) - A man in southwest China who contracted the bird flu virus died on Sunday, health authorities said, the second human death from the virulent disease in the country in just under a month.
The news comes after neighbouring Vietnam, Cambodia and Indonesia also reported deaths from avian influenza, and after chickens tested positive for the H5N1 virus in Hong Kong, prompting a mass cull of birds.
The latest Chinese victim fell ill on January 6 and was admitted to hospital in Guiyang -- capital of Guizhou province -- where his condition rapidly deteriorated, the provincial health department said in a statement.
Tests on the patient before he died confirmed he had contracted the H5N1 virus, it added.
"So far, 71 people who had close contact with the victim have not developed abnormal symptoms," the health department said.
He is the second man to die from bird flu in China in less than a month, after a bus driver in the southern province of Guangdong passed away from the disease on December 31.
The latest death brings to 28 the number of people in China who have died from the disease -- which is fatal in humans in about 60 percent of cases -- since 2003, out of 42 reported human cases.
The Hong Kong Department of Health said in a statement Sunday it had been notified of the case by the mainland's health authorities, which said the patient was 39 years old.
Authorities from Hong Kong and the mainland have been working closely together since three chickens in the Chinese territory tested positive for the H5N1 virus in mid December.
Most human infections are the result of direct contact with infected birds, and the virus does not pass easily among humans.
The World Health Organization (WHO) says it has never identified a "sustained human-to-human spread" of the virus since it re-emerged in 2003.
But according to the Hong Kong health department, the Guizhou province victim, who has not been named, had not reported any obvious exposure to poultry before the onset of symptoms.
The Guangdong victim, whose surname was Chen, had not had any direct contact with poultry either in the month before he was taken ill, nor had he left the bustling southern metropolis of Shenzhen where he lived.
Aside from China, Vietnam on Thursday reported its first human death from the virus in nearly two years, and the disease also claimed the life of a toddler in Cambodia.
Indonesia, meanwhile, on Friday reported its second human death from bird flu this year when a five-year-old girl who recently lost her relative to the deadly virus also passed away.
China is considered one of the nations most at risk of bird flu epidemics because it has the world's biggest poultry population and many chickens in rural areas are kept close to humans.
But the Guizhou health department sought to ease concerns on Sunday, saying bird flu was "preventable, controllable and treatable."
All in all, the avian influenza virus has killed more than 330 people around the world, and scientists fear it could mutate into a form readily transmissible between humans, with the potential to cause millions of deaths.
Highlighting those fears, the WHO said last month it was "deeply concerned" about research into whether H5N1 could be made more transmissible between humans after mutant strains were produced in labs.
Two separate research teams -- one in the Netherlands and the other in the United States -- separately found ways to alter the virus so it could pass easily between mammals.

And after all, he does seem to be wanting to put all his 'chicken eggs' in the one basket, China, Vietnam........

Tick tock.

[smiling monkey]

I flew on China Southern A330 from Guangzhou to Melbourne a few years ago and soon after that, I flew on a Qantas 767 from Perth to Melbourne. IMO, there wasn't much difference between the two; both aircraft didn't have IFE's on the back of the seats, service ordinary and flight attendants were there as a legal requirement for the flight .. nothing more. :E

[teresa green]

I would treat it as like something I bought at Bunnings, it might work, then again it just might not. Given that most things that I have bought out of China in the last year, either have a part missing, or four parts left over, or simply don't work, I think I will stick to QF's old rollers regardless. I prefer to hear "brace" in my own lingo.

[Toowoomba Taipan]

I would treat it as like something I bought at Bunnings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunnings_Warehouse), it might work, then again it just might not. Given that most things that I have bought out of China in the last year, either have a part missing, or four parts left over, or simply don't work, I think I will stick to QF's old rollers regardless

I bought some stuff made in China from Bunnings, some didn't work. I took it back and got a replacement...it worked but not to my satisfaction. I asked for another replacement( it was easy, no hassle ), it worked great and remains so. I bought a Holden sometime back. It was a " new " lemon, no replacement possible. Took it to their warranty workshop several times, the problem persists and the people got a bit nasty the second time around........sigh. Gi figure.

[AROVET LI]

While to a lot of Australians and indeed westerners the idea of flying China Southern is not an ideal thought an awful lot of Chinese would have no problems using it to fly to Australia.

If you have a huge market with money to spend to fly from China to Australia and return then why not take advantage of it yourself.

It's called maintaining market share and making a profit or at least that's the generally accepted idea of a business unless you have another agenda.

[By George]

Had to PAX on China Southern once, cured my need to use an aircraft toilet for life. I can now do up to 9 hours without going. On a more scientific note I am still puzzled on how you get those marks on the mirror.

[moa999]

Chinese airlines' sixth freedom roles could challenge Middle East, Asian, European hubs this decade | CAPA (http://www.centreforaviation.com/analysis/chinese-airlines-sixth-freedom-roles-could-challenge-middle-east-asian-european-hubs-this-decade-66664)

Article on this topic. The CASK charts are scary for QF.

[Metro man]

China Southern is definitely the one to watch until the Chinese ATC system catches up with the growth. Guangzhou is relatively free of congestion where as Beijing/Shanghai have the equivalent of gridlock. A two hour delay in these areas is nothing.

Design wise Guangzhou airport is a carbon copy of Singapore Changi with lots of presently unused capacity. They have a massive home market and could probably kick off routes on the basis of locals traveling overseas and foreigners visiting the "factory of the world", there are some nice beaches and golf courses around Shenzhen, Hong Kong is an easy side trip.

Unlike Singapore/Middle East airlines which have small home markets and rely on being a transit point, China Southern may be able to regard transit passengers as jam with the local market as bread and butter. Fares could be very competitive on through routes if the component flights are already profitable on their own, tickets could be sold for significantly less than than other airlines need to charge to cover their costs.

With their resources it won't be hard for China Southern to bring in overseas talent to the training department and make improvements in the service area.

They are featured in the January issue of Airliner World magazine.

[AnQrKa]

Once upon a time people laughed at EK with their grubby 727's and A300's.

"hah, who would ever fly a middle eastern airline?"

Ignore chinese airlines at your peril.

[bekolblockage]

Design wise Guangzhou airport is a carbon copy of Singapore Changi with lots of presently unused capacity. They have a massive home market and could probably kick off routes on the basis of locals traveling overseas and foreigners visiting the "factory of the world", there are some nice beaches and golf courses around Shenzhen, Hong Kong is an easy side trip.



Looking on the radar screen to the immediate north of us, the growth rate of air traffic is quite frightening.

Guangzhou and Hong Kong are now pretty much on par in terms of movements at around 1000 per day. If anything ZGGG is probably ahead now. Shenzhen just 20 miles north is averaging around 6-700. Macau is less than 20 miles to the west with another 120 odd.

Over Chinese New Year average daily movements in the combined Pearl River Delta terminal airspace (below 20,000 ft) would have been around 3000.

Movements are expected to top 5000 per day within a handful of years. So there's no misunderstanding, apart from a few bizjets, we're talking about nothing smaller than a B737/A320. At Hong Kong almost 70% of traffic is Heavy or Super. Wake turbulence separation kills runway movement rates.

Yes there are big delays in China but they are on an extremely steep learning curve- trying to do in 20 years what the US did in 70.

Take a look at the annual movements at Beijing. Just 3 years ago they were number 21 in terms of movements- now they are number 6 with about 540,000 movments p.a. For comparison, Sydney has a little over 300,000.

Sorry for the thread drift but just wanted to emphasize the impact that an increasing % of 1.3 billion people being able to afford to fly will mean.

[DrPepz]

It looks like QF's cost base is only 15% higher than SQ and 20% higher than CX. If the AUD fell 20% to around AUD85c, QF's cost base would be lower than SQ and CX. And considering QF operates aging 747s and 767s and mostly short flights, this is not a bad achievement at all.

Also wages in China are rising around 20% per annum. IN my company we have to give massive pay rises each year, so Chinese wages will rise to a point some point in the not so distant future that they reach HK/SIN levels.

Already in Singapore we are facing huge problems getting workers from CHina willing to clean up after us and serve at our restaurants at low wages.... There was a near disaster in the past 2 weeks over the Chinese New Year period when the Chinese nationals went home and restaurants had to either close or double wages of service staff (so that a Singaporean would actually do the job) because there were practically no cleaners and waiters left in the country.

Most of the ones we get come from very poor provinces in North East China like Jilin. But even that supply is drying up.....

[Eastwest Loco]

Have had quite a few passengers on CZ - simply driven by price. No whinges at all and some repeat traffic too.

Had a flight cancel problem last week with a 12 hour layover CAN ensuing - called Agency and after a disgracefully long hold the problem was fixed with a transit hotel and transfers plus 24 hour visa. Not bad for a "cheapie" who seem to be swarming the Europe market.

Below is a snapshot of an E ticket . Just look at the fare and then ask why they are getting more and more street cred.

ELECTRONIC TICKET RECORD
INV: CUST: PNR:BDIVXZ
TKT:7845349442713 ISSUED:19JAN12 PCC:Y2P3 IATA:02345943
NAME:ANxxxxxxxxxx
FOP: CASH
CPN A/L FLT CLS DATE BRDOFF TIME ST F/B STAT
1 CZ 344 V 10MAY MELCAN 1030 OK VPREUSP OPEN
2 CZ 307 B 10MAY CANAMS 2355 OK VPREUSP OPEN
3 CZ 308 B 08JUN AMSCAN 1320 OK VPREUSP OPEN
4 CZ 321 V 09JUN CANMEL 2100 OK VPREUSP OPEN

NONEND/RER CHG/REF/NOSHOW/PENALTY APPLY
FARE AUD600.00 TAX 16.00YQ TAX 313.40YR TAX 147.04XT
TOTAL AUD1076.44

MEL CZ X/CAN CZ AMS307.20VPREUSP CZ X/CAN CZ MEL307.20 VP
REUSP NUC614.40END ROE0.976535 XT47.00AU3.98WG28.36WY28.20 CN17
.00CJ19.90RN2.60VV

Yep that is 10 May departure and return Amsterdam for $1076.44 ex MEL. Name is blanked for obvious reasons.

Base fare is interesting. AUD600.00.

Be vewwy vewwy quiet - heehehehehe - we're hunting kangawoo:(

Best to all in South East Queensland and mid-North NSW. Hope all is clearing with the rotten weather.

Tas actually needs rain. I have had the rooves in the Z for 2 days out of 30. Ridiculous.

EWL

[blade.runner]

Should be:
Qantas faces more competition from its management

[Captain Gidday]

And the winner of the Australia Day 2012 Ferrython on Sydney Harbour was [drumroll please] :
China Southern Airlines.
http://homepage.idx.com.au/pblack/index/China_Southern.jpg
[Qantas was not even in the race].

[Ken Borough]

TOTAL AUD1076.44

Cheap as, eh? I wonder what the China Southern total charges are for MEL/CAN/MEL and CAN/AMS/CAN on the same days as EWL's thrill-seekers are travelling? I wonder if we are experiencing a dumping exercise as surely the $600 as indicated on the e-ticket for travel is below the cost of production?

[blow.n.gasket]

Could this explain the rumour that Mainline International is propping up Jetstars so called profit ,Ken?

Ços if Jetstar wasn't making all this money and were not so profitable on such low load factors due to all the overpriced muffins they must be selling on board they couldn't dump $30 fares on the market because the ACCC would be straight onto them for predatory pricing?????:E

[hongkongfooey]

Good point Ken and as usual, QF are on an extremely uneven playing field with an Australian government that doesn't give a stuff about protecting local companies unless there is a big buck in it for them. During the GFC for example, China southern and the other big 3 Chinese airlines got a circa 500,000,000RMB hand out from the government, what did QF get from Kev, Juliar and co ? Nothing other than allowing the overseas carriers cart blanche entry to Australia.

I have been delayed in China many times whilst de-icing, either during snow storms or even just morning frost whilst the local carriers (inc CZ) all departed without de-icing. Unfortunately this means jack to the poor old oblivious SLF, but thats what your getting for your money, as I said before, good luck :ok:

[Piano Man]

A recent search on the airfare websites does reveal some very cheap fares from CZ.

The one I like most is a certain premium economy deal.

CZ Sydney to Guangzhou
CZ codeshare with Air France to Paris

then return

CZ codeshare with Air France Paris to Guangzhou
CZ Guangzhou to Sydney

Total price is $2000 return...for Premium Economy.

Now I know CZ has nothing more than an economy seat with more legroom, however to fly Air France isn't that bad a deal in all honestly.

Cheaper than QF/BA economy and you avoid a potential Terminal 3 at Heathrow experience.