GA crash near Welshpool

[m5dnd]

Just heard from Friend that a light aircraft has crashed near Welshpool airfield.

Hope the crew are ok.

Nik

[jimgriff]

News is a seven seater aircraft crash on Long Mountain near Leighton.

[Narrow Runway]

BBC Radio5 live reporting 2 dead.

Confirmed by the Air Ambulance in attendance evidently.

[long final]

BBC News - Air crash: two killed in light aircraft incident near Welshpool (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-16617738)

[m5dnd]

Sad news..

My thoughts go out to the two and their families.

Nik

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Two People Die After a light aircraft crashes in Powys, Wales | UK News | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16151856)


Rumours sweeping the town (Welshpool) that the crashed aircraft is the Twin Commander operated on behalf of large local employer Control Techniques.

Rumours only I emphasise. I think it unlikely but that is the rumour in the area. Anyone anything more?


WWW

[JW411]

There is a thread already running in the Private Flying forum.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

A 7 seat Twin Commander is not quite the same as a Cessna 152 though I admit still a private flight.

I know the aircraft and some of the crew. Just want to establish whether its true or not..


WWW

[Daifly]

Navajo I've just been told WWW

Not good.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Oh ****. :( Would that be Bob flying G-BWHF?

WWW

[AlphaMale]

Seems it was the owner of Welshpool airport and his passenger.

Very sad news.

R.I.P. both.

[Pace]

WWW

Its the Navajo and one of the pilots who I have known for a long time is a very, very experienced and brilliant pilot as well as very well known in aviation and locally and this will be a tragic loss to many of us not just his family.

A very sad day indeed.

More than that I dont want to say.

Pace

[Daifly]

I don't think we should be saying names unless we know.

[Fox Four]

Crikey, they didnt waste any time in removing the link from the website.

Business Flying (http://www.welshpoolairport.co.uk/business.html)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Local news reports it's "Airport Owner" who we all know is Bob Jones. First man who took me flying in a light aircraft when I was 12.

Bloody nice bloke. Bloody nice family.


Eventually in aviation this happens to someone you know well. Damn.


WWW :{

[Daifly]

Looks like it.

Gutted.

[TOT]

local news has just named Airport Owner who we all know is Bob Jones.

I am gutted, a true gentleman of the first degree,

it was a pleasure to know you Bob.:\:\:\

RIP..

Ray Jones Gloucester

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

His picture is on the TV news now.

Condolences to the passengers family. No details yet released.


I'm actually having a little cry. Before I joined Air Cadets even my parents paid Bob to take me up in his aircraft. We did a loop over Montgomery. He followed and encouraged my career from that point on. He was, as anyone will tell you, an incredibly good man.


Damn. Damn, damn, damn.


WWW

[Daifly]

Yup, without Bob I would not be doing what I do, simple as that.

Gave me my first opportunity to fly at 12, got me my first job at the airfield at 14, gave me my first helicopter flight, would even drop me home to Meifod after work in the R22! Helped me with my PPL, let me fly G-BERC for free after I got my licence and by the time I left for University I'd flown nearly 100 hours with him, all free. In addition his family, especially his Mum, were consistently lovely to me and always asked about me after I'd left Wales.

Saw him in August last, hadn't changed a bit. Asked my Dad about me last month, said he was pleased as I'd "done well".

He was an absolute inspiration to me and I am very sad today.

Thanks Bob - you've left an incredible legacy and I'm not sure you ever realised it.

Dave

[All-The-Nines]

Terrible news and such an awful shame.

My girlfriend's family are from a town just up the road, today at 2pm I e-mailed Welshpool asking about self hire rates etc because her Dad wants me to take him up and it's too expensive for me to fly a plane up from the South-East. Little did I know what must have been unfolding in their office at the very moment my e-mail was sent.

Condolences to all concerned.

[toptobottom]

I only met Bob once, although I regularly drop in to Welshpool for fuel. Lovely man and a great little airfield. Condolences to his family :sad:

RIP

[Martin Barnes]

This is very sad News.

As an elderly Aviator it is always a Deep sadness to loose a Colleague in the line of duty. Last year it was Jim Beaton and now Bob a seasoned professional.

Lets all be very carefull up there !

RIP Captain

[Pace]

Knowing what a brilliant and careful pilot Bob was and the 10s of thousands hours he flew what chance does it give the rest of us?
Thats number 6 of good friends and pilots I knew well who have been lost to aviation :confused:
Welshpool was his love and I wonder what its future will hold without his passion to keep it going?
Still no news of who was with him?

Pace

[madlandrover]

A huge shock. One of the best people out there, as a person and an aviator.

[Martin Barnes]

Can only confirm it was NOT our friend from EGFE who often flew with Bob

[Mooneyboy]

Really sad and shocked to hear about Bob's death. Having flown with him and known him since I was young I always regarded him as true expert and vastly experienced professional.If it can happen to him it can happen to anyone.

He knew Welshpool better than anyone. His gentle demeanor and presence will be sorely missed.

Condolences to his family.

RIP Bob

Mooneyboy

[peterh337]

This is really sad. I know very few people on the UK aviation scene but have met Bob many times - a great bloke.

What was the wx like there?

METAR EGOS 181250Z 27009KT 9999 FEW012 SCT023 BKN110 12/09 Q1020 WHT TEMPO SCT012 GRN (but that's Shawbury which is not among the hills)

METAR EGOS 181350Z 32008KT 9999 SCT012 BKN020 11/09 Q1020 GRN TEMPO FEW012 BKN020 WHT

[Daifly]

CAVOK, fine winter's day.

[Pace]

What was the wx like there?

Peter

I was told the weather was good there! Long Mountain clear of clouds, Light winds and good vis.

They took off from 04 two up so a bit of a mystery. He knew the aircraft like the back of his hand and they were light.
(but that's Shawbury which is not among the hills)

Never take shawbury weather as indicative of Welshpool which seems to have its own microclimate. Winds because of the valley are different. Shawbury OC 200 means Welshpool usually 600-700. Shawbury fog can mean Welshpool clear and visa versa.
Only put this to warn pilots not to take Shawbury weather as Welshpools.

Can remember landing there when the runway had not been built alongside on the grass in a PA28 many moons ago As well as Bob on his tractor keeping the grass trim up until recently.

Pace

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I didn't know Bob but probably met him as I've flown the Chippy into Welshpool many times, including back in the day when it was Trehelig farm grass strip.

Very sad. Makes you wonder how this can happen to wise old pelicans like him in a familiar aircraft on what would seem to be a benign day.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Indeed - the weather wasn't actually that good.

I thought it was CAVOK based on the weather here at Weasley Manor which is half an hour away. in fact there was some low cloud and mist around with drizzle at times in the Welshpool area.

I don't buy CFIT though.


WWW

[peterh337]

It was a post takeoff accident?

[CharlieDeltaUK]

Knowing what a brilliant and careful pilot Bob was and the 10s of thousands hours he flew what chance does it give the rest of us?
Thats number 6 of good friends and pilots I knew well who have been lost to aviation http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif



Indeed, what does it say about the chances? Tell me, Pace, when you see such losses from among your own acquaintances, how do you rationalise the decision to keep flying? I've read all the posts about how safe is flying. But, when it's personal for you, how do you keep going? One sees reports of car accidents all the time, but thank goodness I've not had known anyone with personal involvement so I can just digest the stats and reassure myself that driving is rational. But, the stats must be meaningless to you when you have personal connections with such frequency and these are pilots who experienced and esteemed.

[Daifly]

If it was off 04 then it came down about four miles to the right of the extended centreline.

Dad (for he is a trained met observer) reported "Nice winter's day" from a mile down the road - even if age has affected his eyesight, like WWW I don't buy CFIT.

But, maybe I just don't want to believe any of it, rather than causes I think remote.

[peterh337]

Extremely unlikely to be a CFIT in clear conditions.

What does that leave?

- some serious issue in the cockpit (fire?)
- dual engine failure
- medical pilot incapacitation

Very strange.

[Lima Juliet]

CDUK

Indeed, what does it say about the chances? Tell me, Pace, when you see such losses from among your own acquaintances, how do you rationalise the decision to keep flying? I've read all the posts about how safe is flying. But, when it's personal for you, how do you keep going? One sees reports of car accidents all the time, but thank goodness I've not had known anyone with personal involvement so I can just digest the stats and reassure myself that driving is rational. But, the stats must be meaningless to you when you have personal connections with such frequency and these are pilots who experienced and esteemed

When I was flying Tornado/Fast Jets in the 90s we were losing 2-3 good blokes every year. One year there were 3 funerals on the same station - not good when there's only 70-80 flyers at the same location. How do you reconcile that? Well, nearly every accident is different, there's mechanical failure, sensory illusions, controlled flight into terrain, uncontrolled flight into terrain and other human factors to add to the mix. Just as in car accidents these things happen and they will continue to do so - life is all about risk and managing it as best you can. If you think it's too risky then don't do it and save it for another day.

I didn't know Bob well, although I have been to Welshpool, but it's always tougher when the good guys go. RIP and I hope we find out what happened so that the rest of us left have a better chance of staying on this earth.

LJ:(

[Pace]

Peter

We dont yet know who the other occupant was? A pilot? a passenger?

Charlie Delta

I think as pilots we always look for a pilot who was an accident waiting to happen or an aircraft waiting to happen or a flying occupation we would never consider as then we can rationalise that we are far better! Its unlikely to happen to us and that makes us feel better.

When the pilot is highly respected for his professionalism and care as with Bob Jones it becomes much harder to chew.

Even Hill walking the Scottish mountains has a high death rate! What do you do? Lock the doors to your home and have a boring life?
My other passion Scuba Diving has its own regular fatalities.

We can only learn and move on because there is nothing else you can do.

Pace

[MattSquire]

Edited for time being.

[Genghis the Engineer]

10 years ago on a flying holiday out of Welshpool I got stranded with an engine problem over at Sleap. Bob Jones, who I'd known for about 3 days, dropped everything and jumped in a C172 to come and rescue my passenger (as it happens, Whirlybird, another Pprune forum regular) and I.

I ended up with a C172 checkout, courtesy of Bob, out of the day on the way back.

A very pleasant and capable man who ran his little airport very well, and was very generous of spirit. I didn't know him well, but have nothing but good views of him.

My deepest sympathies to all of his closer friends, and his family. And of-course deepest sympathies to all of the friends and family of the other pilot on board, who I wasn't privileged to know.

G

[chevvron]

MattSquire: check your personal messages.

[Whirlybird]

I've only just heard, and I can hardly believe it. I've known Bob since I started learning to fly at Welshpool in the 1990s. I had a hard time in the early days, and he was always there to talk to; he told me afterwards it was obvious I was struggling and he wanted to keep an eye on me. Lovely, kind man, who'd been flying for ever. I've always considered him as a friend, not just an acquaintance, even after I moved out of the area.

Like others, I don't buy CFIT. Bob knew the area like the back of his hand; he wasn't going to fly into a hill four miles from Welshpool, no matter what the weather was doing! If something went wrong with the aircraft, there's always time for an abbreviated Mayday call. I suspect sudden pilot incapacitation, since nothing else seems to make sense. We'll find out, eventually. But it won't bring him back...

My sincere condolences to all friends and relatives of both of them.

[Pace]

I suspect sudden pilot incapacitation, since nothing else seems to make sense.

Absolutely NOT! Ok if Bob had been single pilot maybe but because the other pilot is a double Whammy for me.

He was a superb instructor who originally did my multi engine and IR training many moons ago.

He then left to follow a career with EasyJet rising to a position of Captain.
I saw him a few months ago and he was taking early retirement to relax on his smallholding with his wife.

At the time he told me he was going back to Welshpool to keep his hand in as an instructor and possibly a bit of air taxi.

Both pilots were highly experienced professionals and this accident has taken two good friends who I have spent much time with and learnt a lot from. Both really lovely guys.

A complete disaster all round and my heart goes out to their families and loved ones.

What happened where two such brilliant pilots could not sort it God only knows.

Pace

[Whirlybird]

You're right, Pace, it doesn't make sense. I didn't know anything about the other pilot when I wrote the above.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Pace (and Whirley), you might want to take note that the name of the second pilot has not been officially released and the original post on here naming him has been deleted at the request of relatives.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Pace (and Whirley), you might want to take note that the name of the second pilot has not been officially released and the original post on here naming him has been deleted at the request of relatives.

I've taken the liberty as a moderator of deleting the second pilot's name from my own, Whirly's, and Pace's posts, although I've changed nothing else.

G

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

It seems I am in the rather tragic position of knowing both the pilots who perished.

If you need to know details for some reason then Private Message me.

Its all utterly utterly ghastly.


WWW

[tmmorris]

Would Bob have been the owner in 2001? I did my PPL there, but I think the school leased the field from the owner. I don't think I met him, if so.

Tim

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Bob's always owned the airfield. Pool Aviation used to be a company that operated the flying school in 2001. In later years they left. You could have done a PPL there and never seen or spoken to Bob.


WWW

[Beenie Man]

Going back to the weather, the cloud base above the site was actually only 150' agl. A very sad day. RIP

[peterh337]

Earlier it is stated that this was the twin Commander (twin turboprop) but this (http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2012/01/19/welshpool-airport-boss-victim-of-plane-crash-horror/#ixzz1juI0REnt) says it was a Navajo.

I know the Commander; it was owned by Control Techniques at Newtown.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

It was the Navajo. In the early stages the rumour that swept the town was that 'the Control Techniques plane has crashed'. This was not the case.


WWW

[peterh337]

OK.

This is a bizzare accident. For once I would say that the AAIB report will be very interesting.

Not that this is intended to be in any way speculative on this sad accident (of which I know nothing) but a control jam (or some similar failure) is always a possibility. One is not going to be making radio calls then, especially on a departure from Welshpool where a lot of the time there is nobody on the radio anyway (if Bob was not on the radio himself).

I've just been doing a very careful post-Annual inspection (always do that, and then do the ACF-50 stuff, before the covers go back on) and found some old damage where heater pipes (ducts) were obviously fauling the controls, ever so slightly. This could not have happened since I went N-reg (and been closely involved in maintenance); it must have happened during the previous JAR-145 G-reg company maintenance (company no longer trading, and I am not talking of the former disti who has also gone bust). All kinds of stuff can bite you in this game...

[Whirlybird]

You can still fly with control failure, and with two experienced pilots, one of them could quickly call 121.5. I would if I was about to crash in the hills.

But you're right, it is bizarre, as well as being so upsetting for those of us who knew anyone involved.

What about....carbon monoxide? Would you know about it before you were too incapacitated to land an aircraft?

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

If you have seconds to try to save your life, you don't waste time talking on the radio.

[chevvron]

The radio was probably tuned to 128.0 Welshpool Radio and it would take precious seconds to change so what advantage would 121.5 be?

[peterh337]

What about....carbon monoxide? Would you know about it before you were too incapacitated to land an aircraft?Yes; it is slow acting, unless the concentration is massive and then the ingress of the exhaust gases into the cockpit would be obvious.

But a twin does not use engine exhaust heaters; AFAIK most use the Janitrol-type avgas heater, which is supposed to be a lot safer.

Calling 121.50 is pointless unless you are simply lost and have time to play.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The Press have released the name of the second pilot. Steve Carr who retired as a Captain with easyJet at Liverpool last September and ex-RAF. He leaves a wife and teenage family.

A lovely chap.


Please let us bear in mind the family and those very close to the deceased are reading these pages. Let the AAIB do it's work and let's discuss it then. There is no remotely compelling scenario nor enough evidence to construct one at this time. Let's not try.


WWW

[10002level]

So sorry to hear that Steve has passed away. One of the nicest people I have had the privilege of flying with. RIP.

[READY MESSAGE]

I was shocked to hear Bob had been involved in this accident. Nobody new the local area better than he did. Nobody was more encouraging of aviation in Wales than Bob. I first met him when I did my PPL at Welshpool back in 1995, he was often at the airfield sharing his experience and passion for flying. I particularly remember an enthusiastic guided tour given by Bob of the Twin Commander, it was people like him who have inspired a generation of new pilots. Our paths crossed several times over the years as I made flying my profession. He always remembered people he had only met a couple of times previously and took a genuine interest in what they were doing. He will be sorely missed by everyone who came across him either at Welshpool or in the wider aviation community.

RIP Bob.

[Pace]

I am sure there are many here who would like to attend the funeral/s ?
Maybe pprune could post the family wishes and dates in that respect?

Pace

[tmmorris]

Thanks WWW, I didn't recall the name but wanted to be sure. What a waste.

Tim

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I will post whatever details are appropriate regarding Bobs funeral as and when.

I have a hunch that it might be a private affair because potentially it could be so large that it would risk failing to serve its primary purpose.


WWW

[Training Risky]

Condolences to both familes:(

I didn't know Bob from Welshpool, but does anyone know if it is the same Steve Carr DFC ex Chinook pilot...? He was my neightbour on the patch for a while. RIP:(

[Non-PC Plod]

No, this Steve was purely fixed wing as far as I know.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

There seems to have been two ex-RAF Steve Carrs and this was the major reason that early name checks were removed despite the name being correct.

The following link includes a photo to eradicate any doubt:

Bob Jones and Steve Carr formally identified as victims of Welshpool plane crash « Shropshire Star (http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2012/01/24/tributes-for-welshpool-plane-crash-victims/?_ft_=qid.5701268343256883756%3Amf_story_key.101505020605187 63%3Afilter.h_nor%3Ainterface.m_faceweb_iphone%3Ac.m)


WWW

[Letdown]

I've just heard, Bob's funeral is 13:30 Saturday 11th at St Mary's Church in Welshpool.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

A slight correction to the above. It is in fact a Thanksgiving Service. The Funeral is a private affair at another time.

Bob was an amazingly popular man who was very widely known. As such there are simply too many people who wish to attend his funeral. Unless invited otherwise then please consider the Thanksgiving Service for you. I will be there.

For any queries speak to Eddie Francis on 01938 580364 (undertaker). I believe the Wales Air Ambulance is one of the nominated charities.


WWW

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I'm no lover of poetry as a rule. However when Bobs widow stood at the Lectern in St Mary's and, so bravely and movingly, read this out it was incredible;


Impressions of a Pilot
Gary Claude Stoker


Flight is freedom in its purest form,
To dance with the clouds which follow a storm;
To roll and glide, to wheel and spin,
To feel the joy that swells within.

To leave the earth with its troubles and fly,
And know the warmth of a clear spring sky;
Then back to earth at the end of the day,
Released from the tensions which melted away.

Should my end come while I am in flight,
Whether brightest day or darkest night;
Spare me no pity and shrug off the pain,
Secure in the knowledge that I'd do it again.

For each of us is created to die,
And within me I know,
I was born to fly.



Never come across that one before. So tragically apt.


WWW

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Lovely. And as you say, apt. More so than the somewhat hackneyed (but still excellent) 'High Flight'.

[Captain Mainwaring]

Utterly miserable at this news of my former colleague.
What a loss, I have no more words.

[Yankee]

Very fitting that this should appear on the TV this week. Bob as I will like to remember him.

Jules "Thanks Bob for a very nice Flight", Bob "wait till we are down". "Thanks again Bob", "OK my pleasure."

BBC iPlayer - Britain's Heritage Heroes: Episode 8 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01c9bg7/Britains_Heritage_Heroes_Episode_8/)

Skip through to 24:41 and stay to after the final credits.

[Roff]

27.20 :ok:

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Steve Carr - a privilege to have known him and flown with him as his First Officer on the B737 and later A319 before I moved on to pastures new and Steve into retirement. Liked, respected and very much missed by all his ex-colleagues and friends in Liverpool.

Rest in peace.

[Nearly There]

I was in Welshpool today and noticed fliers for the Bob Jones memorial air show this weekend for those who may be interested.

Welshpool Air Show (http://www.welshpoolairshow.co.uk/)

[Pace]

Is there anymore known yet about the cause of this very sad and tragic accident?

Pace

[Non-PC Plod]

Have been trawling AAIB, and cant find any reference to it as yet

[Daifly]

Report published today; CFIT. Unbelievable with over 25,000 hours in the front seats and so much experience of that local area, just goes to show, never immune to it. Sad times, please learn from it.

Air Accidents Investigation: Piper PA-31-325 Navajo C/R, G-BWHF (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/august_2012/piper_pa_31_325_navajo_c_r__g_bwhf.cfm)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

It's the conclusion I had feared. Bit of cloud on long mountain. Deceptively dangerous. I've made that turn a thousand times. Bob a hundred thousand times. Its nothing. Then it bites your arse. 21ft higher and it wouldn't have happened.

Unbelievable.



RIP


WWW

[Pace]

Very sad result in an area I know well too and to two pilots I had a lot of admiration and respect for.
In a way those sort of conditions are the worst not really in IMC not really fully visual.
Both pilots knew the area well as well as the patches of cloud which would accumulate on and around those hills especially long mountain.
It is a stark reminder to us all that even the best are not immune from the slightest tiniest error yet such a tiny error having such devastating results.

We as pilots do our best and when these things happen We like to feel that its to a pilot/s who are an accident waiting to happen or a wreck of an aircraft waiting to fall apart!

When they are both such brilliant pilots in a good aircraft it makes us aware of our own vulnerability.

I have lost 7 good friends now to aviation Bob and Steve taking that from 5 to 7! Lost for words!

Bob having co piloted me on the Citation on a couple of occasions I was stuck for a licensed pilot and on various multi engine twins as well as covering me on flights I could not do! a safe pair of hands! A great guy and superb pilot!

Steve having initially carried out my twin rating on a Baron 55 many moons ago a great instructor who became a much respected Easy Jet Captain.
Sadly I met him after not having seen him for 15 years just before this tragic accident. The same very likable person excited by his new direction back to his beginnings.

Both are sadly missed and will never be forgotten thanks for the ride guys and all you both taught me !!!

Pace

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Accidental verdict in Bob Jones and Steve Carr inquest « Shropshire Star (http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2012/10/25/accidental-verdict-in-mid-wales-plane-crash/)


WWW

[CharlieDeltaUK]

Pace,

These events are striking and make one consider the risks and how best to manage them - albeit we cannot reduce them to nil.

Losing 7 friends to aviation must be a heavy burden. I'm hoping that's because you have many connections in aviation and you have been flying a long time - please tell me that such a toll isn't an inevitable outcome of flying for a while - it sounds like a very high rate of loss for one person to experience. It must start to seem like an accident waiting to happen.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Losing 7 friends is indeed tough. Most of us who've been flying a long time have seen the demise of quite a few people we knew and may even have flown with; I certainly have - a lot more than 7. Not the same as losing friends, however.

The UK flying community is not large, so if you've been part of it for a long time there's some chance you might know any accident victims.

[ShyTorque]

Losing 7 friends to aviation must be a heavy burden. I'm hoping that's because you have many connections in aviation and you have been flying a long time - please tell me that such a toll isn't an inevitable outcome of flying for a while - it sounds like a very high rate of loss for one person to experience. It must start to seem like an accident waiting to happen.

My count of lost friends/colleagues is twenty five. Some military, some civilian.

It doesn't get easier to deal with.