How high do you fly

[FlyingKiwi_73]

Just an Idle interest, Myself i usually fly with the tail sticking in controlled airspace... if C starts at 2500 i am at 2499. I do a lot of coastal flying where all southerly traffic sticks seaward so i like to have a good gliding margin to land.. that probably effects my decision alot.

however i do see chaps scudding along at 1000ft going in the same direction..

I know from some experience the UK airspace is a lot lower in places than say NZ so theres not always the choice.

So its marmite question i guess.... up high for the view and safety, down in the weeds for fun?

whats your preference?

[RTN11]

I'm definately up high for the views. One of the first things I did after getting my licence was going as high as I could, 12,000' in a tomahawk. I was very patient both going up and coming down.

I'm certainly not one for scudding round below 500'. I kind of dislike teaching and practicing PFLs, both for the safety issue that if the engine really fails and the student cocks it up there's nowhere left to go, and also the thought I might be annoying someone on the ground and possibly be reported as low flying.

It still amazes me that people don't like to go high, I know instructors who've never been above 6000'.

[englishal]

As high as I can, unless there is a reason not to...winds / short trip / airspace / weather. The UK has pretty varied airspace, for example you can get up to FL195 VFR over Wales, or only 2499' near London.

FL50-80 is a comfortable altitude in many parts of the UK due to airspace, you can fly most places at this altitude - FL100 is better (TAS) when there are no airspace concerns, and although we have a ceiling of 20,000' on our aeroplane we don't have 02 and until we get it then we keep below FL120.

When I fly in the USA I normally go at 11,000 / 12,000, again due to the O2 thing.

[AdamFrisch]

I get uncomfortable up high, don't know why. It's like my fear of heights goes into full swing above 8000-10000ft, so I normally stay below that. But I can fly high (and regularly do) if the terrain is also high - then I have no problem with it.

I also don't carry oxygen at this time, so prolonged stays above 12500ft is something I try to avoid.

[peterh337]

Below CAS, UK Class G, I fly at funny numbers e.g. 2300 2700 3300 3700 4300 etc. Never below 2000ft (too much traffic).

CAS permitting I fly VMC on top (sunshine and nobody about), or about 5000ft.

On IFR/Eurocontrol flights I file for FL140 and stop climb at FL100 if the wx is clear, otherwise I climb to VMC on top, to FL190 if necessary (use various means (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/tops/index.html) to check tops before going). Oxygen is always carried; no oxygen = no go.

[Rod1]

Up to 10k occasionally 12k for a short burst but I have no oxygen.

Rod1

[Maoraigh1]

For scenic flying 600' to 2000' AGL unless crossing water. Below 6000' as mainly on mogas in the UK. (I've landed at 7600 in Colorado.)

[S-Works]

Work or play?

Work generally between 15,000 and 25,000. Play 501ft.

[FlyingKiwi_73]

'm definately up high for the views. One of the first things I did after getting my licence was going as high as I could, 12,000' in a tomahawk. I was very patient both going up and coming down.



When i got my 172 rating (i was PA38 learnt) i took my mum (and wife) for a brithday flight to Tape-O-Nuekau which is the highest mouintain in the Kaikoura ranges i popped 11000 ft which was nice... the 172 was barely climbing by the end of it... i was keeping a good eye on the temps and airspeed. i had to circle to get down as a descent cruise at safe numbers would have had me busting airspace... i very nice ride here's a few pics:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lucarse/6643258667/in/photostream


http://www.flickr.com/photos/lucarse/6643258267/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lucarse/6643258495/in/photostream

[FlyingKiwi_73]

can anybody see the pics above? something went wrong?

[stickandrudderman]

No and indeed.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

In Class G, in my small PtoF aircraft, generally 1000-2000ft. Sometimes 500ft where I can do sightseeing without upsetting the locals. Over the Channel, as high as i can.

[flyinkiwi]

I like to fly as high as possible so you have more options and are above NORDO aircraft and farmer Jim who learned to fly from his private strip and believes he doesn't need to tell anyone what he is doing in his own plane. ATC doesn't bite (except Auckland when it's really busy) and it's nice to know someone is keeping an eye on you.

[172_driver]

For fun, 500 ft and below used to be my preference (in the US, that was).
For work, it became whatever I felt happy with that day and the what the weather allowed. Normally high enough so I could glide to an airfield.

[ChampChump]

Somewhere between 1000' and 2000' for preference, in Class G, occasionally lower and, like Chuffer, as high as possible over the Channel. I feel uncomfortable at 'great' height, except in a glider, oddly enough.

[Dan the weegie]

Low and slow :) I feel guilty going past about 1500ft.

Work is different but that goes without saying :)

[A and C]

As the best performance for a normaly asperated piston engine is between 6 & 8000 Ft That is normaly were you will find me and a bit higher if I can find a good tailwind.

The policy works quite well, once did Glasgow to Booker in a PA28-161 in 2 hours 06 Min, most of the flight was at FL105 and you have guessed it a very big tailwind. ( the B757 took 1h 15 to go LHR - GLA to get me up north to pick up the aircraft !)

Oh work its FL410.

[500 above]

As low as safety and legality dictates in a light aircraft. Generally FL430-FL450 at work to top slower airline traffic and get direct routeings more readily.

[jollyrog]

Depends on what gear I'm able to get man, but I do my best.

[englishal]

I get uncomfortable up high, don't know why.
That is the "high wing phenomena"...and one of the reason's I have a low wing aeroplane :)....Me and a buddy were flying back into the LA basin from Nevada, it was one of those murkey days and we were at 12500. The mountain peaks could be seen ahead but other than that it was kind of milky everywhere (not mist, cloud or anything, just milky) and it was turbulent, bouncing us around . Looking down you could make out the desert below ok. I was sitting there thinking, blimey I feel like I have got vertigo....then my buddy (who if flying) says here, you fly I think I have got vertigo....! Don't get it with low wing aeroplanes.

[Hodja]

East always FL110, west always FL100. I'd go higher if I had oxygen.

Generally I fly these heights for...

1. Safety (longer gliding distance in case of engine trouble, ability to see much further & divert around weather if necessary; terrain is not a major issue, but there are a few 1-2km mountains around, so it's a safety buffer there as well)

2. Comfort (in this part of the world it's 30 degs celsius on the ground; also the air is often completely calm at these altitudes, whereas you get thermals up to ~3000 feet)

3. Fuel economy

4. The view

[Pace]

Top Down :) CItation usually FL380 or FL390. Seneca twins FL110 or FL120 but sometimes oxy on and up to FL220 if weather, freezing levels or winds dictate.
Normally aspirated FL80 or FL70! OCAS FL55 or 65 or 50 60.

For fun i would never admit but over sea down to 30 feet :E:E:E

I can remember an amazing trip in a twin via WAL past the IOM to prestwick and then up over the islands to the head of Loch Ness and all the way to inverness.
Had the prettiest training female co pilot and it was a hot day :E Not sure which views were best.
Again would never admit the height or anything else but try it sometime? Amazing!
Go low go slow go high and really fly.

Pace

[Pilot DAR]

Well, it depends...

A to B over "nice" territory, 1000 to 2000 AGL, airspace considered.

A to B over territory I would not want to land into, much higher, ceiling and airspace considered.

Over water in a wheel plane, so I can glide to shore and a bit, unless I'm wearing a floater suit, and there is a reason to be low. I fly fire department searches over the local lakes from time to time, and have to fly much lower doing that.

When I'm flying a handling test, as high as I can practically get. I got "told" once for passing through 13,000 feet once, doing a power on stall evaluation in a Navajo. Light weight, aft C of G, a Navajo climbs pretty well at 75% power and slowing to stall speed - I had not planned on that!

When I flew an MD 500 helicopter back through British Columbia, every time I got higher than a few hundred feet, the other pilot with me got squeamish. I asked why. He told me that he did not like to fly very far from the ground, in case something went wrong. Being that low made me nervous....

My most fun, is flying the amphibian flying boat, as low as possible over a calm lake. I like to fly for miles just touching the keel onto the water occasionally. One day, while flying home into a 10 knot wind, I found the perfect power setting, at which is was possible to remain airborne in ground [water] effect , touch down onto the step, run along on the step for a while, and lift off again, all without adjusting the power at all. The plane would maintain level flight just off the water, but if I were to climb up 20 feet, I could not maintain level flight with that power setting, and slowly settled back into ground effect. You have to watch out for dumb seagulls though!

[AdamFrisch]

Silvaire - interesting theory. Could be the case. Can't remember having it in the Seneca or Duchess, but then again I was busy with my training and didn't have much time to get vertigo! I used to get the same feeling whe I trained in helicopters as well - down low was fine, but anything above 1000ft would start to feel very bad. It was much worse in helicopters for some reason. I've subsequently found a thread in Rotorheads about this and apparently it's a pretty common thing.

[FlyingKiwi_73]

I know of a few pilots who suffer "Breakaway" which is a vertigo or un- easy feeling whilst above say 1000-2000ft agl. Interestingly enough these pilots have jobs which keep them very low to the ground for 99% of their jobs.

Some people have surmised its lack of visual stimulus that brings on these feelings.

I have been a bit queasy while being PIC and had to cut a flight short, but that was in my earlier days with head firmly inside the cockpit... it hasn't happened for a while, nothing to do with alt!

[muffin]

Generally 500-1500 ft rotary and 2000-3000 fw. I too get uncomfortable over about 3500 ft.

[pasir]

... For years had never gone above 3000' however on one trip that involved flying over mountain areas en route from UK to Frejus
(Cannes) - on the stretch from Marseilles it was necessary to climb
to over 9000' and although mid summer we soon after noticed what appeared to be either a light coating of dust - or otherwise the initial stages of icing beginning to form on the wing surfaces of our Cessna 172J. Any clues as to which it could have been ?


Incidentally when we landed at Frejus - that night our a/c was one of several that were lifted up. thrown around and severely damaged - as were several others - resulting from a sudden very high wind and storm that left the airfield with rainwater almost up to knee level - resulting in 4 weeks grounded and returning to the UK by train.

.....

[dannyboy11]

I'm still in the early stages of my PPL, but we seem to average around 5000ft.

[Fitter2]

When transitting in a Slingsby T61, (cruising airspeed 60kts on a good day) as low as safe and legal into wind, and 3,000ft plus (airspace permitting) downwind modifying track to use thermal cloudstreets, but staying at least 500ft below cloud to see 'pure' gliders doing the same.

[Pace]

to over 9000' and although mid summer we soon after noticed what appeared to be either a light coating of dust - or otherwise the initial stages of icing beginning to form on the wing surfaces of our Cessna 172J. Any clues as to which it could have been ?

Pasir

You should keep an eye on the temp guage? were you in cloud during the climb or clear air? Midsummer in that region its unusual to get the freezing level at 8-9 K usually higher.
Dust wont stick in the air only as a coating on the ground.
Was it still there when you landed? Again if it was frozen water it would have melted midsummer in the south of France on your way down.

Pace

[FirstOfficer]

Interesting thread!

I am still training, however I too get a bit unconfortable when flying high during my lessons, but then again I don't fly regularly so this might be one of the problems in terms of my body/mind adjusting to flying at high altitudes. When flying as a passenger in an airline environment (I know it is not the same thing) I feel fine.

And by coincidence my next exam is Human Performance and Pilot Limitations. :O

[Gertrude the Wombat]

As high as possible taking into account airspace, lack of oxygen, and combination of cloud base and medical (when flying on an NPPL declaration I don't fly through clouds, honest).

Three reasons for choosing high rather than low:

- you can see further so visual navigation is easier
- if the fan stops you've got several more minutes to work out what to do and a wider choice of places to go
- there's nobody else up there so reduced collision risk

[RTN11]

I'm still in the early stages of my PPL, but we seem to average around 5000ft.

You're unlikely to go above 6000' during training.

The lessons you end up high are:

1. learning to climb - you'll only end up very high if you just don't get it. I once ended up at 9000' with a student who took longer than normal to get the level off properly.

2. Stalling/Spinning - 6000' is plenty to stall or spin most aircraft safely

3. Nav over high terrain - unless you've got some very high ground in your area, you won't end up above 6000.

On a lot of club aircraft the heaters aren't great, so the instructor may not want to be going any higher than this anyway.

It takes a long time to climb well above this in most club aircraft, but it's certainly something to experiment with once you've got your licence. It's one thing reading about a service or absolute ceiling in a book, it's quite another flying up to it and seeing how the aircraft behaves.

[cct]

During my training, I never got above 3500, and now normally fly, subject to CAS at about 2300, 2800 or 3200. To much military stuff below 2000

Did manage 4200 the other week in a C172 - my flying buddy seems to like climbing!

Was a bit unsettled leaving Wickenby when asked to remain not above 500 feet, due to aeros

[172driver]

When touring, typically in the 7500 - 9500 band, obviously at hemispheric levels. Both the normally aspirated engine of the a/c I mostly fly (C172RGs) as well as - importantly! - Mrs. 172driver are happy at these altitudes. An added advantage is that it usually gets you above the 'bimblers', there's not much traffic up there, but still plenty to look at on the ground. That said, I think the highest I've been in this type was around 13k for a short while.

In other a/c and if O2 available, then higher, the low teens are a nice place to be (well, at least in aviation :E).

If on a bimble, well, anything goes (within legal limits, of course!) ;) although I have to say I prefer to be up high(ish) in general.

Interesting observation by Englishal (Adam, I guess you refer to his post and not Silvair's). Never had that problem, but can see how a low wing might give some idea of a 'floor' that a high wing doesn't.

[mary meagher]

Regarding getting the wimbles if you are up high, it apparently works the other way in parachute training. The squaddies are made to jump from a tethered balloon, which is all of 200 feet or so, and absolutely terrifying. I jumped (wan't pushed) out of a perfectly servicable airplane at 2,000, all by myself: the chute ripcord was attached to the aircraft, so any sack of potatoes could have done it. For some reason, it seemed like a reasonable thing to do, but I am very very scared of cliffs, ladders, roofs, edges in general.....

[Julian]

About 7-8000 in the UK

10-12000 in the US.

[Monocock]

500 feet is fun. Less is even better.

I returned from the South West today (to Newbury) at 500 feet all the way home. It was lovely.

[Kengineer-130]

Not having flown too much above 3000', does VFR navigation not get a bit tricky the higher you go? I would imagine 5000'+ ground features start to become harder to spot?

[Lasiorhinus]

Completely the opposite. The higher you are, the easier it is to navigate.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Kengineer-130,

As above.

Take Summer for example, and you're navigating VFR. Assuming no or little cloud cover below you, the higher you are, the closer the ground resembles the map in your hand. Just have to be careful you don't call 'overhead' somewhere just because it's disappeared below the nose or the wing, because it could still be 5 miles away!

As you descend towards circa 1,000', the countryside starts coming up to meet you to the point of starting to distort what you see relative to your map. Contours are more noticeable.

And down towards 500', mid-summer, it can just become one big blur of green, yellow, brown and bumble bees flying through the air vents :p

p.s. This may not apply in Wales, Scotland or the Peak/Lake districts!!!

[Contacttower]

Typically FL90-FL110 if possible.

[BackPacker]

Under the Schiphol TMA, 1000'-1200' MSL (which is actually a few feet more AGL). En-route cruise outside that, typically 3000-3500' or so. Over water, as high as possible - which is FL45-FL65 or thereabouts over the Channel/North Sea. Aerobatics, typically a block between 3000' and FL55, lower when practicing for a competition.
if C starts at 2500 i am at 2499.
LVNL (the Dutch NATS) advises us not to do that consistently. Around here they vector traffic for final approach at 2000' (Schiphol TMA starts at 1500') and wake turbulence is known to descend up to 700'. So their advice is to stay 200-300' under the base of CAS. Makes sense, also from the CAS bust point of view.

[Morris542]

As a low hour PPL, with the majority of flights being local flights in the south east UK, most of my flights have been between 1000' and 3000'. If on a cross country then I try to get as high as possible. But I'm yet to go above FL50.

[mary meagher]

My passenger was a 17 year old lad from St. Pete to the Florida Panhandle; he had helped me move a boat and I had promised him a flight home. He was, already, a heavy smoker.....
Approaching a military air station, the enroute controller asked if we could please climb to 11,000. I replied no problem. Informed my lad that the military controller had asked us to climb up rather high, and that I would be OK, but that as he was a smoker, he might have a bit of a problem, and to let me know if his fingernails began to turn blue.

He spent the rest of the flight nervously examining his nails......

[Pilot DAR]

Completely the opposite. The higher you are, the easier it is to navigate

Well, generally yes, unless you've got to drop down to read a water tower, to figure out what town it is - 'cause they all look alike! Don't laugh, I've done it more than once flying over the Canadian prairies.

[GeeWhizz]

I fly as high as is necessary. Which is a cop out somewhat. But... if the temperature means not flying to cloud then cloud base is a high as I can go. If its a clear day then CAS may be preventative. If a straight 100nm leg could be flown at 1500ft but would involve dodging airspace, gliding sites, numerous frequency changes and whatever, but FL40 misses everything then that's more conducive to the overall flow and comfort of the trip.

That said, if on a local muck about, aircraft service ceiling is the aim if possible (but never needed to get there yet), and likewise a safe 500ft MSD scud running jaunt is never out of the question.

I think its good to explore many altitudes including the very high and the very low as it adds something to confidence and expands the comfort zone, because one day it may be called for by the traffic situation, pilot concerns, or ATC.

[NazgulAir]

FL100-FL120 preferred, this is a very efficient altitude for our plane. We do have (portable) oxygen to go higher, but rarely need to.

Strong winds, clouds, CAS and routing restrictions might interfere.

Someday (after getting oxygen masks instead of cannulas) we're going to try getting up to the plane's ceiling, just for the fun of having checked that she can really get there, which is pretty high for a non-turbo.

Last summer, I did a flight at low altitude (between 600-750') in marginal weather (between 2-4 miles vis and rain) over unfamiliar ground.... this would have been extremely uncomfortable at our usual economic cruise speed, let alone at 75%... so instead of pretending to be a fighter on a strafing run I throttled way back and lowered the wheels and pretended to be a microlight, not comfortable either but a lot safer. The slower you are the lower you can still navigate safely in less than ideal weather circumstances.

[n5296s]

Only possible answer is "it all depends". The only absolute rule is to fly higher than the terrain. (Though I admit the first time ATC asked me if I had "terrain in sight" I started anxiously checking all the railway tracks in view).

For local puttering about I generally fly around 2-4000 feet. For typical xc flying I like to be around 7-10000 - gives me plenty of room if the fan stops, and a bit more TAS.I'll go higher or lower because of winds. I've flown up at FL200 a couple of times on very long flights to take advantage of winds.

Of course it all depends on airspace, too. Flying around San Francisco, I generally stay below 1500 so I can avoid talking to Norcal. (Why I would I want to do that? - because SFO tower will often give you a transition when you ask them directly, even though Norcal is refusing them).

In the heli I normally fly 1000-1500 AGL. Altitude is not really on your side, and it keeps you out of the way of the fixed wing stuff. And the view is wonderful.

[172driver]

Of course it all depends on airspace, too. Flying around San Francisco, I generally stay below 1500 so I can avoid talking to Norcal. (Why I would I want to do that? - because SFO tower will often give you a transition when you ask them directly, even though Norcal is refusing them).

Thanks for the info, something to remember! Only been through the SFO class B a couple of times and never had a problem with Norcal, but will try your way if and when I need it. :ok:

[peterh337]

The only absolute rule is to fly higher than the terrain

and above or below hazardous weather :)

[pasir]

...Pace - Ref suspected icing at 9000' over Sth of France- No there was virtually no cloud - Weather very hot but cannot recall the outside temp. - but as implied any signs of icing evaporated as we commenced the descent . This was many years ago - flying days now over regretfully.

Mary - on the chute drop. - I can recall a conversation from a young ex parachute regt colleague in the days when they had just the one chute (no second chute) when discussing para regt training - in which he too confirmed that his worst odeal was the very first jump that had to be made from a cage atached to a tethered balloon at about 400-600 feet.

...

[Jan Olieslagers]

My flying is like my singing voice: an uncertain baritone, i.e. low to medium; and not very pleasing to specialists, but bearable for most others.

[Jim59]

Generally wind the velocity is greater with altitude so when flying downwind flying higher will be quicker and potentially more economical. Going downwind lower is better if you can tolerate the turbulence! The wind forecasts give an idea, for each day, on the amount of shear.

I'm sure a more numerate person than me can work out how far one needs to be cruising downwind before the the cost of extra time (fuel) in the climb is outweighed by savings in the cruise given appropriate assumptions.

[soaringhigh650]

Around 2000ft when local sightseeing.
Around 8000ft when on transport to places further afield unless there's a strong headwind in which I will fly lower to compensate.

[englishal]

Sometimes airspace transits are easier at altitude. Coming back from North Wales a while back at about 9k, in nice smooth air and sunshine above the layer of broken cumulus, (with everyone else squashed down below) Cardiff asked how I wanted to route, so I asked for a Transit and was cleared straight across Cardiff, Bristol and the airways in between, without having to ask for each bit specifically which was nice.

[tggzzz]

RTN11 wrote:
2. Stalling/Spinning - 6000' is plenty to stall or spin most aircraft safelyPah! Yesterday I entered a spin at 1200ft. Great fun. Go gliding :)

[peterh337]

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m74/peterh337/f200.jpg

[Justiciar]

Yesterday I was determined to get to at least 6000' to cross the Wash from north Norfolk to Skegness, but the weather got in the way. I got above what turned out to be a unbroken layer of stratus lying right across my path. I knew it was clear the other side as I could see Mablethorpe in the sunshine, but I really could not convince my self that I was going to be "in sight of the surface" holding a heading above the cloud, even though it was very beautiful up there, with the wings kissing the tops of the clouds. As it was I had to descend through a hole and run across in grey flat light at 3000'. What I did not like was the stonking headwind which made the crossing seem to last for ever. Mind you, on the way back I shot across like a cork out of a bottle!!

[mary meagher]

tggzz. were you alone in the K13 or was there an instructor in the back seat when you entered your spin from 1,200 feet? I presume you recovered, otherwise we are having a report from the other side......

[AdamFrisch]

Highest you been in the "Renault", Peter?

[peterh337]

Yeah.... any higher and the stall warner becomes a bit of a nuisance... also the autopilot can be used only in pitch hold, not altitude hold.

In ISA+10 you are lucky to make FL180 however. Or indeed if there is any kind of downdraught. I tried that just over a year ago (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/sardinia/index.html), quite close to Mt Blanc, and I think we got to about FL174.5 before I capitulated. Mind you, there were 3 of us plus the kitchen sink :)

The "Renault" is actually a super aircraft for European touring. Obviously other stuff goes faster and higher but you pay for it with a lot more juice.

[mary meagher]

Power pilots reading this, please take into account that on a good day for gliding, there will be A HECK OF A LOT OF GLIDERS and not always near gliding sites. They can be found between 500' and cloud base. (lower than five hundred feet they get nervous and look for a field)

So if you want to be safer, if at all possible, on a good day for gliding, plan your flight above the tops of the cumulus. Avoid the crowd. As well, it will be a smoother ride altogether.

If you are a non-smoker, you should be quite comfortable up to 12,000.

[Crash one]

I seem to remember old Joe at Portmoak years ago being asked "How do you know how high you are with all those empty holes in tha panel?" "When my fag goes out I'm high enough".

[cct]

MM for many of us, that is not permitted!

Also until more recently, the aircraft werent up to it. Like Waddington asking me in a C150, two up at 2800 to climb to 4000ft due to landing aircraft at Conningsby - fat chance! I replied that it might take a 'while' and they were happy with 3000

[maehhh]

As high as possible... normally between FL95 and FL115, I'd love to go higher but no oxygen ... regardless if high wing or low wing :ok:

Great view, smooth ride, good TAS, better VOR/NDB/VHF range, less traffic, more time in case of an emergency, better temperature in the cockpit... why would u want to go any lower?

Except for sightseeing maybe...

cheers
maehhh

[tggzzz]

mary meagher (http://www.pprune.org/members/289925-mary-meagher) wrote:
were you alone in the K13 or was there an instructor in the back seat when you entered your spin from 1,200 feet? I presume you recovered, otherwise we are having a report from the other side...... I'm pleased to confirm that both I and the instructor recovered. It was, unsurprisingly, a planned part of my "winter refresher" check in a K13.

I like to think that if there hadn't been then I wouldn't have entered the spin in the first place. At least not at that height/location.

It was still, of course, great fun - and long may such fun continue.