What makes a Flying School a good school?

[4_blues]

We have all read the write ups all over PPRuNe and other 'fora' relating to bad flying schools - the ones to stay away from at all costs as a result of taking payments up front and disappearing over night, or a lack of Instructor availablilty or a poorly maintained fleet. But what makes a flying school a good flying school?

How do those of us in the business strive to ensure we are a cut above the rest? Obviously doing the opposite of the above is nice start, but how do we build on this? It is my view that given, as much as I hate to use this phrase, "the current economic climate", we all need to ensure we are offering students the very best to ensure they come back and hopefully bring a friend or two along the way. I strongly believe that a business's reputation should precede it and flying clubs/schools should be no different.

Apart from keeping prices as competitive as possible and in line with the competition, which is a struggle for some given the fact most schools are at the mercy of the airport in which they are based, how do we further promote growth and increase the likelihood we will see out another 12 months?

I think 'value added' is the key. How can I ensure I am giving my customers the very most for their £X an hour. Examples of steps taken would include building on social events, trying to get both PPLs - PPLs and PPLs - Students to 'buddy-up' and share their flying experiences. Advancing technology for example, in flight cameras to be used in the post flight debrief ("See, you flared far too high there Bloggs"), same again but sticking something on a DVD for that first solo etc. Tea & Coffee facilities of course (with perhaps the odd biscuit or two).

I would be interested to hear your thoughts?

[Winhern]

When I was learning I really liked the online booking system that I could use at a time convenient to me, and allowed me to specify which instructor I wanted.:)

[Genghis the Engineer]

- Instructors who want to be instructors

- Club members who treat it as a club

- Enough similar aeroplanes that you can jump between then and always be able to fly and learn in something familiar regardless of unserviceabilies.

- Enough slack in the bookings that there's some flexibility.

- A user friendly airfield.

G

[Pilot DAR]

4 blues,

Great post, great questions, great thinking!

A few of my rambling thoughts.....

I was first a student pilot in the 1970's when I was a 16 year old, with 100 hours flying experience already. Probably a nightmare for many instructors, as I had lots to unlearn. They made it tough, and that was right. I did not need pilot training, as much as I need adult training, so I got a measure of both. The school went out of their way to recognize what I needed, and did a good job. My reward? First person to first solo in the much sought after C 152, in Canada, and it had 33 hours TTSN at the time. Happily, that school has been in steady business for all these years, and remains a leader. It is also the only flying school/club in Canada which owns it's own airport.

What changed there over the years, was the apparent [to me] caliber of instructor. I had occasion to have to test fly one of their 172's, so as to assess and approve a major repair, a few years back. I found that the maturity of the instructor who had to "check me out", and the instructors I met on the whole, seemed to have dipped somewhat. I understand that some new pilots would like to earn their way into more senior pilot positions by instructing, but it's more than just how you get a plane up and back down which is being taught, it's maturity, and decision making. It takes some real experience to teach that.

When I took Helicopter training a few years back, two instructors shared the role of training me. They were both grey haired (well, I added to that a bit), and very experienced. That meant that when they taught me something, they also taught me why it was, and when to apply it. It was way more than "this is what the book says". I learned an amazing amount, and highly respected the experience which enveloped my training.

When I fly with newer pilots, I am alarmed with what they don't seem to have been taught. Worse, they don't have much sense of what they are missing. I understand that the "curriculum" does not require it be taught, but that does not mean that there should not be an awareness in the new pilot. I think that schools could do more to teach a student that there is a lot more out there, and they will earn a PPL, which is only a license to learn.

A "good" flying school would assure that all students have a variation of aircraft to fly. This will assure fewer threads here like: "I've been flying the PA-28, do you think I should try the 172?". YES! go fly the 172, and the Tomahawk, and the Citabria, and the Cardinal RG, and get taken for a hour's flying in the Tiger Moth or Chipmunk. The student will learn that they can do it, but that they must broaden their sense of how a plane flies too. It does not mean that they will finish their training competent on these other types, but they will be aware, and have greater confidence. The student does not want to pay for the extra hours to transition between types? Convince them it is important.

The student is trying to fly "the minimum"? Sit them down, and explain that flying costs money, and if they want to do it in the minimum, that's the kind of pilot they'll be: Minimum Mitty. There are some hard realities to flying, unexpected contact with the ground being one of the worst. It's part of the maturity training to learn to make the intellectual and financial investment to overcome these pitfalls of inexperience.

Student pilots are not prissy clean honourees with epaulettes. They are people at the entry point to understanding how to fly a plane. As such, a part of their training should certainly include getting on the overalls, and changing a tire, or a battery, and looking around inside the cowls. They should pump some gas, and wash the plane a few times.

And, homework: A "good" school does not hide or minimize accidents. The relevant, deidentified information should be presented to students by reading a couple of AAIB type reports, and write a "what I learned from that" report back.

I guess I should not try to run a school, I'd probably put myself out of business. Points to those schools who sustain themselves. This is done by really competent instruction, and imparting the true value of a broad understanding of flight.

[rich_g85]

I think Genghis is pretty much spot on, especially with his very first point- 'career' instructors who love instructing and aren't just waiting for the elusive airline job. Having a variety of aircraft within the fleet is useful, so there can be a higher chance of 'something' being available that you can fly. Organised club events are good too, a summer BBQ, fly-outs to interesting places etc, perhaps a social secretary could be appointed to keep the focus on the 'club' aspect of the club. There's probably lots more, I'll have a think and post back later. Rich

[A and C]

A club with an honest and clear price structure...... not one that quotes £xx for an hours flying and then ads charges for home base landings, fuel surcharges, instuctor briefings & VAT.

I find that the people who are upfromt about costs are usualy the best people to fly with.

[BackPacker]

As Rich points out, the world doesn't end when you've got that PPL.

Of course, as a freshly minted PPL you spend your first year taking up all your family members and friends (hopefully with a bit of cost sharing going on) but at some point in time, the interest in your flying diminishes and you find yourself without a challenge or reason to fly.

That's where the club comes in. A place to meet other pilots and share a flight with them, do charity flights, get further training (aerobatics, tailwheel, complex, multi, or maybe even onto the IMC/IR/CPL/ATPL path), join in a fly-out or fly-in, or even a multi-day tour of Europe. Heck, even a social evening where no flying is done can be a good night out.

[172driver]

Simply put - a school that teaches you to FLY and not just to pass the exams and the checkride.

[felixflyer]

A school that realises that you are the client and are giving them a lot of your hard earned cash. Some schools treat you almost like an inconvenience.

This is usually by the people behind the desk rather than the instructors, but I have also seen instructors shouting at students and generally treating them like s@#t.

I think this atttitude is seen more in the commercial FTO's where there seems to be a never ending supply of wannbees coming through the door. However these people might be paying tens of thousands into the schools coffers.

Whilst looking around for schools to do my CPL/IR I have been staggered at the lack of basic customer service shown. Sometimes it felt like I had to almost beg them to show me their sim/aircraft etc. A couple of schools just made me walk out without even inquiring.

If I ran my business like that I would be very poor indeed.

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Looking back twenty years to when I started to learn to fly, a small amount of idiosyncrasy in a flight school might not be a bad thing.

As a total ‘walk in off the street’ novice I went in to the first place with the big friendly Learn To Fly Here sign outside. I walked in. Everyone there stopped what they were doing and stared at me, then resumed their conversations, drinks at the bar etc. After a couple of minutes I walked out, taking £6K’s worth of flight training spending with me. I don’t think that school is still in business. Can’t think why…

Other places were marginally better, but tended to give one the envelope with their bumf and an invitation to ‘Call them if you have any questions’.

I finally ended up doing my PPL and some further training with Air South. Some folks with long memories may recall the idiosyncratic outfit and the cast of surreal characters in their adverts in the flying magazines. I’d decided that they were either Brilliant or Barking, turned out they were a bit of both.

The point of this rambling is that in a flying club or school you have a large sales and marketing workforce. All enthusiastic (assuming a good club), all unpaid. Even a pre-solo student can answer a lot of punter type questions. They might not be totally on-message, but will be enthusiastic. As long as they pre-fix their comments with their experience level, their contribution will be worth more than any glossy brochure.

It doesn’t need the CFI to meet and greet every punter that comes through the door. Possibly having handed over the usual bumf, the person could be pointed at one of the students with the suggestion that they ‘Have a word with Jill, she’s coming up to solo and can tell you what it’s like to get started’. This will get the buddy system going from the start.

[BackPacker]

Good point WKW. A month or so ago I was just propping up the bar after an aerobatics flight, chatting with some other pilots, when somebody wandered in off the street. He was thinking about getting a PPL, and was checking out the different schools at the airport.

We invited him to join us, offered him a drink and spent a good hour talking about the workings of the club, the PPL, what to do after, the club atmosphere, post-PPL activities and so forth. I also took him airside and showed him a few of the clubs aircraft, let him sit in the P1 chair, explained a few things to him about the panel and so forth.

When we got back in and after having chatted some more, he went to the desk and bought a trial lesson package right there and then.

Such a treatment is probably more important than the usual CFI spiel about what a PPL is going to cost.

[mad_jock]

The first contact personally I think is given not enough attention.

It has to cut that fine line of being the first line of sales and also the ongoing ops role.

The chat with the CFI isn't required or does any good unless they are a TF god themsleves which usually they are not.

I am in two minds about if the person should know the training info inside out. I have worked with both and to be honest the personality traits of the none pilot meant she was far better than any of the pilot ones.

It really needs some one that can relate to the punters, can be the confident of some of them, be able to deal with the occassional bout of tears, be able to bully instructors into getting there finger out and have a cracking sense of humour which livens the whole place up.

flyingschoolsec who I worked with while the pink headset was on going was by far the best I have ever worked with. The paperwork was always done and you left the club with laughter about some personal abuse which had just been thrown your way and you came back in to laughter as well.

Folk in through the door were always made welcome and apart from the occasional appearance of a couple of the committee members that were a pain there was always an air of fun about the place.

[4015]

Some fantastic ideas and points made here, I've taken a few things away from this thread myself already!

A few things which make me want to give people money:

1. Clean and tidy office/ briefing rooms/ aircraft. Whilst most of use are aware that a bit of duct tape here and there with a bit of oil on the cowling is no big deal, the average first time punter does not.

2. Professional but fun people. Nobody wants to be taught by a useless halfwit, likewise a personality descendant of Atilla the Hun bearing down on you for not getting the flare quite right doesn't make for a good learning experience. Flying is inherently dangerous, but also needs to be fun.

3. Honesty. If someone isn't honest or tries to hide things, I will not be giving them my cash.

Every other point I would make has already been covered really, as I said above there are some blinders! Brilliant thread!

4015

[Genghis the Engineer]

1. Clean and tidy office/ briefing rooms/ aircraft. Whilst most of use are aware that a bit of duct tape here and there with a bit of oil on the cowling is no big deal, the average first time punter does not.

And the first time punter may well be right, because that could well be indicative of a broader lack of care and attention.

G

[mad_jock]

And for gawds sake have decent clean toilets that arn't freezing cold.

Changing the towel more than once a year would be a bonus as well.

O and the skinning the student for checklist hiviz etc every time they forget them is a no no and really pisses them off. Pound in the RNLI box and lend them a set.

[Pilot DAR]

I walked in. Everyone there stopped what they were doing and stared at me, then resumed their conversations, drinks at the bar etc. After a couple of minutes I walked out, taking £6K’s worth of flight training spending with me.

Ha ha, yes! When in Reykjavik with my wife and daughter a few years back, I wanted to rent a 172 to tour. The first flying school I stopped at treated me as above. The second did not, and got cash for 3.5 hours flying, for an aircraft which might otherwise have sat idle for the day.

You don't have to waste an hour with every person who walks in the door, but you do have to great them with a smile, and present the enthusiasm for aviation that attracted you there in the first place!

[Maoraigh1]

A good system. When I did my PPL in 1964 at Thruxton, part way through the course my landings got worse, and the assistant instructor couldn't fix them. Instead of continuing to bash on, he chopped the lesson. I was in the air soon with an experienced instructor who sorted me out in about 20 minutes. I then continued with the assistant instructor. (30hour PPL on Jackeroos)
I let my licence lapse, and had to do most of it again in 1986-7. One of the instructors would keep on when we both knew I was not getting anywhere, but he couldn't spot why.

[4_blues]

Thank you all for your very insightful responses. Certainly a few interesting points! :ok:

Happy landings!

4B

[Aphrican]

As a very new PPL, I have a few observations (some of which have already been made) :

- A school that teaches people how to be pilots rather than how to pass exams / flight checks
- Instructors who want to instruct rather than build hours to get a commercial job
- Airspace that is uncrowded enough that the primary focus is on flying rather than ATC and crash avoidance
- Relatively modern equipment (this is based on my personal risk perception rather than logic : I know that a well maintained older airframe and engine is better than a poorly maintained newer airframe and engine but for any given level of maintenance, a newer airframe is less risky than an older airframe : since maintenance is an unknown for most of us, age is the only observable variable)
- Flight schools that have reconciled the teacher / student and service provider / customer conundrum
- Instructors who insist that students leave their socio-economic backgrounds behind when they enter the aerodrome. Aeroplanes truly don't care who we are
- Instructors who are able to recognise that the learning process is not at all linear and encourage students to fly with someone else for a while when we reach plateaus / regress
- Instructors who are punctual and insist on the same from their students
- Instructors who treat every flight as though it were a transatlantic flight with 300 pax on board as a measure of their professionalism

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

Might I recommend the book “The Savvy Flight Instructor – Secrets of the Successful CFI” by Greg Brown to the assembled company? I’ve just re-read it and a lot of the advice is relevant to the above discussion. It’s not a ‘how to cure student’s bounced landings’ type of book, but covers a lot of the business side of things from the perspective of the small / Mom & Pop type flight school.

It is an American book, so some things will be different. The CFI in this case is a Certificated Flight Instructor. As many people here will know, they don’t have AFI’s over there, so once you’ve got your instructor’s rating you are on your own. This book has lots of useful suggestions about motivating students (and instructors) as well as keeping the punters coming through the door. There’s even a piece in one chapter where a new student (albeit a successful business man type) walks away because he feels the instructor hasn’t charged enough for the tuition, so he can’t be any good!

It’s available via the Web, as well as an e-book. The link below has a description as well as a suitably glowing testimonial.

The Savvy Flight Instructor on the ASA Website (http://www.asa2fly.com/product1.aspx?SID=1&Product_ID=162&)

Safe Flying,
Richard W.

[Julian]

- Charging reasonable prices (not necessarily cheap but reasonable!)

- Having well maintained aircraft where ALL the equpiment inside work rather than having INOP stickers overs everything and looking like it belongs to the Rodney Trotter School Of Flying - it will put potential students off if they think you are cutting corners by not maintaining aircraft, first impressions count!

J.

[abgd]

As a student PPL I don't really have the experience to judge how good my flying school is relative to others. However, some things that I've really appreciated are:

1) Having lots of other pilots hanging around - from other students to skygods. To have some kind of comfortable club room is critical. Keeping it cold to encourage sales of club hoodies (a story I heard) is false economy. I'm sure that I learn lots of somewhat intangible but important things through listening to pilot stories.

2) Good (i.e. flyable) weather most of the time. I know this can't be guaranteed anywhere, but some places are much better than others.

3) Bad weather most of the time. In my book, ideally the weather would be moderately challenging most days. It should obviously be CAVOK, nil wind every Saturday so that first solos can be scheduled though.

4) A few schools told me that they were currently too busy with intensive students to take on any more. My current school probably has slightly too many students for the course to be completely 'intensive'. This leads to fairly substantial cost increases - it costs at least several hundred pounds a week to be off work and perhaps staying in a hotel. If you're intensive you want 2-3 hours a day whenever the weather is willing, and anything that means you only get 1 is a problem. Really, this has been the only issue I've had with my school. As I like 'most everything else, I can live with it.

5) Transparent costs - I've found this works both ways. Many schools fail to mention landing fees, which if they are applied to touch-and-goes become rather substantial. My school neglected to mention the fact that landing fees are included until I asked. The list of 'extras' such as airside passes can end up being quite substantial. The flipside of the deal is that prospective students should reward honesty and not be put off by flying schools that have more costs listed.

6) I bought lots of materials such as the Air Pilot's Manuals and a flight computer prior to starting my course. I couldn't find a school that would discount the price of a full PPL on the basis that I owned a lot of the materials already. I agree that the discount wouldn't have been substantial in flying terms... But it seems terribly inflexible to me.

7) In the current economic climate, I decided that I didn't really want to pay up front for lessons anyway in case the school went bust before I had completed the course. If I'd been able to find any flying school that held money in escrow or gave a rebate at the end of the course I'd have counted it as a major plus point.

Another thought - I once heard somebody mention that people enquiring about PPLs were almost always dreamers who wouldn't come back. I guess this may be true sometimes - maybe even often - but any sensible punter will talk to at least half a dozen flying schools before making a decision. I think I must have talked to about 12 and looked online at rather more. The impression on the ground will inevitably be that most people don't come back. The inference that most people weren't serious about flying isn't justified.

Anyway, I wonder if this partly explains the fairly indifferent attitude towards prospective students that both I and many other people on this thread have noted.

[limitedslip]

Lots of great suggestions here. A few of mine:

Customer service/retention:
-Front desk staff that is warm and friendly. This is huge.
-Introduce students to each other, invite them to back seat each other's flights.
-Have the students try different instructors, especially if they are plateauing at all.
-Make sure the more advanced students know that they are an example to the newer students and should make an effort to be responsible/welcoming/helpful.
-Punctuality.
-No hidden costs. Everyone knows flight training is going to be expensive. If you feel nickel and dimed though, it can be very off putting.
-Encourage them to take photographs and video. If they share their experience with their friends they'll be less likely to quit.

Instructing points:
-Debriefing after every flight.
-Clean windscreens. Never saw anyone clean a windscreen at my US flight school, at my NZ one it was part of every preflight.
-Experience actually using different airports, not just taxi back and take off. Refueling, using an FBO, finding parking, these are things I had to learn on my own, when they could have easily been shown to me by my instructor during cross country flights. (This can be filed under "teach to fly, not just pass the checkride")
-More focus on weather decisions. These are the hardest decisions to make as a fresh pilot, they need lots of focus. Have your students interpret the weather every day, make their decision, then call an experienced instructor to talk about their interpretation.
-During flights, ask your students what they would do if they were running out of fuel, if a passenger was sick, started losing RPM, a door is open on take-off, low voltage light goes on, find broken equipment at a foreign airport, etc.

These things will leave your fresh PPLs safer and more confident, which means they'll enjoy flying much more.

[Pilot DAR]

- Charging reasonable prices (not necessarily cheap but reasonable!)

This is important, not in that, as said, the price should be low cost, but reasonable, and as said, transparent. For those who have expressed a desire for a nice club room, a front desk person to greet, a person to clean windshields (carefully, so as to not scratch) and other non airplane/instructor nicities, I agree. Remind yourselves though, these niceties cost money too, and that has to come from somewhere. So either the student appreciates these added elements, and pays an additional user fee for the facilities, or that reasonable cost is added (and of course presented) to the rental cost for the aircraft.

The club at which I learned to fly had these nice things, and I appreciated them, but it was also the most expensive place to learn to fly anywhere around. You get what you pay for....

[average-punter]

To me being welcomed is one of the most important, as has been mentioned if you don't feel welcomed you won't chose that school. I have visited a local flight school on 2 occasions and on both visits I spent over an hour talking with the instructors, I was shown a very clear pricing structure and got lots of useful advice. When I'm ready to do my PPL I know exactly what school I will be using.

[peterh337]

- Charging reasonable prices (not necessarily cheap but reasonable!)

- Having well maintained aircraft where ALL the equpiment inside workThose two are largely mutually exclusive :)

Maintenance to a 100% functionality can be quite expensive, unless the aircraft has almost no avionics. I do that myself, but then I look after it well (including 0.5kg of silica gel in the cockpit, changed weekly), and it is hangared. And I actually use the avionics, whereas most renters are VFR only.

This topic has been done to death here many times, being closely tied in with what one can do to stimulate GA activity and reduce the % of pilots who drop out soon after getting their PPL.

I would put "mentoring" (yeah I know it is a currently trendy term, and a lot of people in the industry disapprove of it) very high up, and in the flying school context this means having experienced pilots as members and actively supporting them even if they are no longer customers.... even if they take passengers with them in their own plane (and possibly accept cost sharing contributions), these being passengers which the school regards as its own property :)

Lots of old chestnuts there :) You will solve the Euro debt before you solve these.

And this is why we have what we have. Most of the industry scraping out the bottom of the barrel with beaten up old wreckage.

[DavidWoodward]

The reason I like Mainair is there's a good selection of aircraft and enthusiastic instructors not to mention the knowledge that Chris can share with you.

[Grob Queen]

Been reading this thread with interest.

Having well maintained aircraft where ALL the equpiment inside work rather than having INOP stickers overs everything and looking like it belongs to the Rodney Trotter School Of Flying - it will put potential students off if they think you are cutting corners by not maintaining aircraft, first impressions count!

Love the picture painted there, can just imagine Del and Rodney "becoming miwyunaires" with their flying school....taking some advice off Boycie perhaps... :) However, if there is a U/S sticker on the aircraft or on the e-booking system, this shouldn't surely put potential students off? Its just realistic. Sometimes, you just can't help it if an aircraft is u/s for a long time.

I would put "mentoring" (yeah I know it is a currently trendy term, and a lot of people in the industry disapprove of it) very high up, and in the flying school context this means having experienced pilots as members and actively supporting them

As a student who has this from two very good ex-RAF pilot friends, I totally agree with you Peter, it gives another experienced, trusted viewpoint for the student to ask, so they don't just rely on their instructor; its someone else to bounce issues off and also once qualified, another pilot to go flying with on the first few trips as a fresh PPL just for that extra security (I know thats what i'll be doing once qualified!)

I only have experience of our club, but some of the points raised are so true...a club which is student friendly and welcomes new members, one with a laid back attitude so it doesn't feel like "school". Don't like the idea of this formal homework someone mentioned! PPL students will work hard at home without QFI motivation, the motivation to get the licence is all I certainly need, and am doing everything to get it.

One with great socials and fly-ins where the students are just as much respected members of the club as the experienced pilots.

One where, again as someone said, the student gets stuck into everything...washing the aircraft, pre-flight aircraft cx, checking the ATIS, Wx, NOTAMS, Out Brief, booking out with ATC, fuelling-up after flight, putting the aircraft away if not being used again, closing and locking the Hangar and the Club if the last one out and volunteering for Duty Pilot duties once every three months (a great way to learn Ground procedures).These are all things which I do as a matter of course and have done since about my third lesson...and wouldn't have it any other way. :)

[FlyingLapinou]

If I were doing it over again, I'd want a school where I could sit down with an instructor at the outset and work out a realistic target number of hours in which to complete the PPL. I realise there are many variables involved, but there were a lot of expensive wasted hours in my training.

Proper briefing/de-briefing, not just a few hurried scribbles on the whiteboard or - worse - none at all and an instructor who's out the door for lunch quicker than you can drop a dish of hot lasagna.

I'd also want an instructor with the foresight and manners to call me when lessons are cancelled :}

Any school willing to teach me how best to use a GPS and modern navigation planning tools (even if only at the most general, introductory level) would also get my vote :ugh:

Yep, mentoring. Post-PPL you can easily fall into a black hole.

[GeeWhizz]

When I was a student I loved the simplicity of the school:

On the facilities front: telephone booking and being able to book as many slots as I liked into the future, a comfortable reception, and a cafe for pre and post flight coffee, with many people to chat to and bounce ideas off of. A good enough briefing room, with plenty of equipment available to borrow at no extra cost (ELT, spare headsets, life jackets etc). Wet rates, up front or in advance; take off to landing + 10mins (5 either side) easy. A small friendly aerodrome, with little taxy time and choice of runways to prevent cancellations due to crosswinds, or the opposite for crosswind traning, although busy both movement related and social. The latter to gain confidence in and around the circuit.

For the aircraft and operation of: all parked in a place that meant no pulling or pushing about hangars or fences or wherever, maintained on site, and enough aircraft so that down time was minimal (sometimes though we have to accept that an aircraft being unserviceable may have been due to a fellow pilot having a very bad day - and people are more important than aircraft).

Overall pitch up, brief and go fly. The quality of instructor has been over done here, but I'll add that a long drawn out ground brief becomes monotonous and learning stops. I liked the possibility of briefing a simple lesson during the climb up to exercise altitude. Also flying with an instructor that knows flying should be fun is a good thing. Sometimes I think we all need to (safely) do silly things: hovering/flying backwards in high winds, low level etc.

Even after gaining the little scrap of paper this simplicity continues and I enjoy flying from the same place. Having flown from another club also, I know which I prefer. My (ex-)instructor is always happy to chat about doing new things and provide advice or ideas on a better way to do what I plan to. ('ex-' bracketed because they will be my instructor regardless of my qualification or experience until no longer with the school).

KISS: Keep It Simple Stoopid!

GW

[soaringhigh650]

Club members who treat it as a club

But not all flying schools have clubs or are clubs. :)

Yet I think what makes a good flying school is the presence of post-learning pilot support that may involve mentoring and/or a referral to one or more home-based flying clubs or groups... as well as the sociable aspects of the school.

Organized day flyouts or week-long vacations which give pilots some time to fly and other times to enjoy their destinations is something that keeps people flying.

[mad_jock]

In the UK there has to be a Club with the RTF attached to it.

Some schools its a seperate entity and others its there but run by the school with virtually no input from the members. Some charge a yearly fee(most) others don't (tends to be commercial schools who give you membership until you complete)

[Julian]

However, if there is a U/S sticker on the aircraft or on the e-booking system, this shouldn't surely put potential students off? Its just realistic. Sometimes, you just can't help it if an aircraft is u/s for a long time.


Realistic for a piece of equpiment to be U/S yes I agree, not all equpiment will be working 100% of the time and there will be downtime. However, if there are loads of stickers over the panel then that is not realistic.

Also if week after week when you turn up to fly, the same stickers are there that to me does not say that the owner is taking an active interest in rectifying the issue.

If a new PPL student were to sit in an aircraft and see all the stickers I doubt they would be thinking "its realistic", they would be probably be thinking "Oh dear". Especially if you prices are not 'bargain basement' students will expect what they pay for, not half of it.

Its what drove me away from renting in the end, a good majority of the school fleets were quite frankly knackered!

J.

[Grob Queen]

Overall pitch up, brief and go fly.... Also flying with an instructor that knows flying should be fun is a good thing. Sometimes I think we all need to (safely) do silly things: hovering/flying backwards in high winds, low level etc.

Absolutely! Couldn't agree more GW, thats just the way we do it ;)

Also if week after week when you turn up to fly, the same stickers are there that to me does not say that the owner is taking an active interest in rectifying the issue.

In some instances, no doubt true. However, we had an aircraft u/s from April until about October (that one was actually due to a student having a bad day - namely me!) That was not due to the fact that the club do not care for their aircraft, it was simply down to the Germans not getting on with providing us with the spare parts! So u/s stickers are not a true indication of the club's treatment of the aircraft...

[Julian]

In some instances, no doubt true. However, we had an aircraft u/s from April until about October (that one was actually due to a student having a bad day - namely me!) That was not due to the fact that the club do not care for their aircraft, it was simply down to the Germans not getting on with providing us with the spare parts! So u/s stickers are not a true indication of the club's treatment of the aircraft...


A whole aircraft u/s in a bit different to a piece of equpiment inside being u/s, unfortunately my experience is that the school hasnt fixed it for their own reasons. Dont forget its all about perception as well, especially if you are trying to attract new students/hirers.

A single u/s sticker, yes ok but when multi ones appear that is what creates a bad impression, whatever the underlying reasons are. Unfortunately the kit was u/s at the school I used I needed for what I wanted to do so that led to me buying.

[Barcli]

the maintenance team .....Compton Abbas Airfield Home Page (http://www.comptonabbasairfield.co.uk/?agent=abbasair)

[abgd]

My flying school tells me that older aircraft - c152s and Tomahawks, are in many ways sturdier and better suited to training than anything currently manufactured. Their view is that it's better to have an old aircraft with lots of placards than a new aircraft that's completely unserviceable because of something big such as a broken nosewheel.

If you're a small outfit with only a few aircraft, having £100,000 of loan sitting in the workshop waiting for a part for 6 months and not earning any money would probably close your business down.

I agree that old aircraft aren't always reassuring to look at.

[Cows getting bigger]

....... and that is why we are still stuck in the Dark Ages. Have you ever sat around waiting for a replacement 172 flap runner to be sourced & replaced? Or how about endless trips to maintenance so they can fiddle with a 152's shimmy damper or brake system? Or how about the ever growing list of SBs/ADs that are attached to the 50/100hr check schedule that, in reality, shouldn't be much more than an oil change?

Oh, what I would give for a bit of modern technology that, whilst arguably less robust, can be fixed quickly.

Anyway, back to the question:

It has to be FUN. :)

[Grob Queen]

Ahhh, individuual aircraft instruments...I agree, if a club/school can't fix them for their own reasons and there are lots of u/s stickers in the cockpit, that is indeed sloppy....

However, in my experience (very limited I admit (!)) even a u/s instrument or tyre will make the entire aircraft u/s. If a club/school took a student flying without for instance an altimeter working...or the static pressure vent blocked, I would start to worry..... It gets the student into sloppy habits in their check walk round...the old adage I work by is "A superior pilot uses their superior knowledge so they don't have to use their superior skills..." In this instance, using ones knowledge (however limited, again I am no expert!) to tell that an aircraft is not airworthy, and therefore does not fly....

[abgd]

I've flown in an aeroplane with an under-reading tachometer. As I recall, the first 50 hour check they ordered the part. The 2nd 50 hour check they found they had ordered the wrong part. Eventually of course it got done, but it took a while through no real fault of the school.

It was no biggie but perhaps meant that some of the numbers took longer to stick. I can't see anybody would advocate sending a student on their first solo with a dodgy ASI though.

[abgd]

Oh, what I would give for a bit of modern technology that, whilst arguably less robust, can be fixed quickly.

I'm not sure that it can always be. At least with a Tomahawk or Cessna you can probably find parts on a scrapheap somewhere, or buy a new aircraft for £10,000-£15,000. But if Grob take 6 months to supply a spare structural part, you're in trouble.

Also, big name older aircraft tend to be at least supported by somebody. There are so many newer less established types that many of the manufacturers will inevitably go bust, and a dinged wing will mean a trip to the scrapheap whereas with a spamcan or type still in production it would just mean ordering a few new parts.

I don't like it, but I can see why the situation is as it is.

[Grob Queen]

But if Grob take 6 months to supply a spare structural part, you're in trouble.

To clarify, GrobWerke took about 5 months...the rest was due to said aircraft going in for her annual and their taking a long time over it.....

I've flown her a few times since and shes as good as new now, taxis like a dream with the new nosewheel ;)

[abgd]

I've just looked at where you're training, and worked out that there must be at least two Grobs that have had dinged nosegear that took an unreasonable amount of months to replace.

As I recall, the story I heard was that a Grob at another UK airfield broke the nose leg and had a prop strike leading to the engine having to be taken apart. It took the best part of a year to get it back into the air.

Once seems unfortunate. Twice seems to make a trend.

[Grob Queen]

Not guilty for the other one, wherever it was!!! ...and luckily the prop on ours was not damaged.

Well, whatever is going on at Grob to take so long, they're still OK to train in, and to get back to the OP, I wouldn't dismiss a school/club just because they operated Grobs...but then I maybe just a tad biased.... :hmm:

[abgd]

No, I wouldn't dismiss a school either for operating Grobs. But I am persuaded that if I owned a school, I wouldn't buy 'em. Especially after realising that yours was a different accident.

[niceday2700classic]

Being treated like a customer who's spending the thick end of £200 an hour??!!

That'd be nice. Of course, things change in the briefing room/aeroplane and at that point the 'customer' becomes a student and shuts up and listens.

But beforehand? Jesus Christ. I'm paying almost £200 an hour for this, and then I move heaven and earth at work to arrive for my lesson at the appointed time, only to find my instructor is still in the air. Then at 15 minutes past the appointed time the instructor walks in. Then has to do some paperwork for another student before we can start our lesson. Then has to run out and fuel the aircraft before we brief. Then the lesson ends up being shorter than we'd planned because it's getting dark.

And then I'm made to feel like the most unreasonable person in the world just because I expect to start on time.

[Say Cheese]

Well, I am in the process of looking at somewhere to learn and I have this Saturday just gone found the place I will learn with. Why them? Well because.....

- The CFI was friendly and approachable and confirmed our appointment by text that morning even though I'd only spoken to him the day before to arrange.

- The CFI/Owner was willing to spend an hour talking about the school and club. The way that they work and what I would need to do to get the license. Others I have spoken to have shoved a brochure in my hand and told me to "call if you've got questions".

- Very open about prices. What was included and what wasn't. Told me the minimum number of hours that would be needed to pass and then told me realistically how long it would take. Stated that I would at some point want to buy my own headset and told me to factor that in too. Also, I went for a trial flight after the hour chat and was given a price for the hour. When we got back I was told that we'd only been up for 50 mins (wind was getting bad) and was only charged for the 50 mins I'd been up, not as I was expecting, to be charged a full hour.

- Was added as a temporary member to the online booking system so I could see from comfort of home how it works for myself.

- Showed me on the trial flight a lot of what the plane could do including a stall and how to recover as well as getting it to hover in a strong wind.

All in all I felt welcomed and that they wanted me on board as a member of the club not just another punter to spend some cash.

[madlandrover]

In the UK there has to be a Club with the RTF attached to it.

Just to make it clear, that's for clubs who also offer flying courses, RTFs don't need a club attached - the last 2 I've worked in (both also FTOs) aren't/weren't clubs. In balance keeps things easier when there are several businesses on the same airfield.

[mad_jock]

Go and have a look at that mate.

You might find there is an automatic membership which gets them on the books.

I had to join the FTO's club when I did my CPL/IR.

Its a legacy thing they say everyone has to be members then don't define what a club is. Which for some places is just a list of names that everyone gets added to and others its a revenue generator.

I don't have a clue if this changes with EASA

[madlandrover]

I had a look while I was writing the Ops manual ;). It's used by some places as a perfectly legal protection for liability insurance in a building, by others as a revenue builder. We've found it's better for us to operate as a FTO & RTF with public liability insurance in place and no questions about how/when/where/who. It's not a CAA requirement that RTFs have clubs - rather it's a requirement that clubs have a RTF to be able to conduct training for licenses/ratings themselves, eg Sleap, or have an attached RTF that does the flying training, eg HFS/HAC. A few clubs have given up on the expense and have become purely social clubs, with small discounts available at the local non-club RTF for members.

[4_blues]

I imagine things will be further shaken up when it will be incumbent on any organisation be they 'clubs' or 'schools' offering flight training courses to become an ATO. However, I think it is prudent to collect the details of anyone flying in a 'club aircraft' (be they students on a course or trial lesson/gift voucher flights) and a membership procedure is an efficient way of collecting these details. Although yes, some organisations charge extra for the privilege of writing down your contact details!

4B

[MikeTangoEcho]

- Instructors who want to instruct rather than build hours to get a commercial job

Instructing IS a commercial job thank you very much..

[4_blues]

Instructing IS a commercial job thank you very much..
Im sure that the poster meant rather than an Airliner job as many UK FIs instruct only until they get their first RHS job.

However, to be really anal, it's only a 'commercial job' if the FI holds a CPL and is being paid to instruct. :p

4B

[Aphrican]

Instructing IS a commercial job thank you very much.



As 4_blues points out, my language wasn't accurate enough.

I prefer instructors who have chosen teaching as their vocation to those who are simply building hours for the sole purpose of getting into their first RHS job and never want to see a student again.

The former teach, the latter demonstrate.

[Swerve550]

I'm the same as Berger. I moved schools after some pretty bad experiences all named above, including a very aggressive instructor :eek:.

I've moved schools to a 'club' where i feel totally at home. The biggest diffence aside from the club atmosphere, and this is the clincher, is that the instructor made it fun. He loves flying, he wants to see me do well and his enjoyment of flying is infectious.

At an early stage, it should be scary and extremely good fun. Otherwise your circa £180 per hour should be spent elsewhere.

Swerve

[bouncibong]

It seems Im not the only one to have changed schools. My old school constantly messed me around- I never got briefings before hand and never had a clue what I was trying to learn. Groundschool consisted of "buy the books from transair, read them and you will be ok" The old school was always trying to get money out of me upfront.

My new school briefs me properly, the instructors are far friendlier, the rates per hour although advertised the same are actually cheaper cos I just pay for tacho time and not hobbs time, the new school dont charge me extra for landing fees (watch this one as it can really add up)

Whilst their aircraft dont look the best they are reliable and so;

IF YOU AINT HAPPY where you are- MOVE

[Flying_Anorak]

It's interesting reading all the comments on here, never realised it was such a minefield trying to find a suitable club.

I'm probably a bit of an anomaly (others have used different words to describe me previously!) as I'm currently a gliding instructor looking to get an NPPL TMG / SEP while I can still get a credit for my circa 1,000 gliding hours.

It's quite amazing the number of clubs that don't seem to offer NPPL courses or recognise that there are glider pilots who want to take advantage of the 10hrs instruction needed (yes I know that's a minimum) to get the chance to fly things with fans on the front too.

If I later want to upgrade my NPPL SEP (or LAPL I guess) to a JAR (EASA?) PPL, are there any particular pitfalls as regards the club I learned with that I need to be aware of? For example I have heard that hours spent learning with BGA clubs that offer NPPL SLMG / TMG training cant be counted towards the JAR (EASA?) PPL.

It seems so much easier without a fan!

:confused:

[B4aeros]

For example I have heard that hours spent learning with BGA clubs that offer NPPL SLMG / TMG training cant be counted towards the JAR (EASA?) PPL.JAA licences require JAA syllabus instruction with CAA/JAA instructors. The Motor Glider Club at Hinton is one of the very few places in the country that can give combined SLMG/CAA instruction; you can find SLMG instructors at gliding clubs who are also CAA instructors but most are BGA motorglider instructors who have done an NPPL SLMG instructor's course.

SLMG training at BGA clubs will count towards an EASA licence. An NPPL SLMG will become an LAPL(A), TMGs only. You can add an SSEA to your NPPL pre EASA conversion, or add SEP privileges to your EASA LAPL(A) post conversion. You will be able to turn an LAPL into a PPL.

It's quite amazing the number of clubs that don't seem to offer NPPL courses or recognise that there are glider pilots who want to take advantage of the 10hrs instruction needed (yes I know that's a minimum) to get the chance to fly things with fans on the front too.Most BGA clubs don't have a TMG & only the biggest & busiest have enough customers to keep an SLMG instructor current. Lasham, Dunstable & Bicester all offer SLMG instruction in your area, possibly RAFGSA Chilterns at Halton as well.

[billiboing]

I stand to be corrected, but I believe you are wrong sir re your hours training at a BGA club counting towards a EASA PPL. I had a long chat with the CAA with regards to the changes in the rules which come into effect on 8th April 2012.

As I understand it many of the BGA instructors have Motorglider Instructor Ratings (Restricted). This means that they can teach only for GLIDING exercises- ie cross country nav before someone does their first XC, field landing checks etc. These guys, good as they are cannot teach towards a PPL of any sort and your hours WILL NOT count.

The next type of instructor is those than can teach for the NPPL TMG. These guys again are restricted to this, and speaking to CAA flight Crew Licencing the hour done will NOT count towards a EASA PPL

To do an EASA PPL you need to train through either a REGISTERED TRAINING FACILITY or an APPROVED TRAINING FACILITY. This is an approval given by the CAA to carry out PPL training for the EASA PPLs.

You are right in saying that Hinton is one of the few places that has BOTH approvals to do PPL EASA training, NPPL training, SLMG renewals and is a registered training organisation and has FULLY RATED motorglider instructors and examiners that are BOTH BGA and CAA. They also do IMC, tailwheel and IR (SEP) training.

People need to be careful to ensure that if they undertake training that where they fly has the correct rated instructors and approvals to undertake the training for the licence that they want.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO GET AT THE END OF IT ALL?

EASA PPL (TMG) OR EASA PPL SEP- Must be carried out at a RTO (CAA Registered Training Organisation) with a CAA approval with a CAA rated instructor.

NPPL- Can be by either a RTO as above with a CAA instructor or with a BGA Instructor who has a FULL MOTORGLIDER rating. These hours will NOT count towards a EASA PPL and you would have to redo them.

GLIDING RELATED EXCERCISES- Can be by any of the above OR a BGA instrucotr with a restricted motorglider rating.

[Dan the weegie]

No club is required for an RTF to operate, that was done away with quite some years ago (5+) but club committees continue to cling on to it so that they can exert some amount of influence on the RTF. I know this because it's no longer on the application form to become an RTF, you just need permission from the owner of the airfield.

Career instructors are as common as rocking horse dung. Customers will not pay extra to have a full brief/debrief from an instructor of any kind, they will only pay for flying time or well written groundschool. New career instructors i.e. ones that have only ever been are normally unable to get a job flying in an airline/bizjet and that's the only reason they're still there anyone else is teaching ME/IR/FIC and therefor will not be available to PPL students except for exams.

It's more than a little insulting to say that you don't care about your students if you're on your way to an airline job. I've met plenty of sub standard career guys. All you need is someone who takes a personal interest in you.

Not enough customers will pay for immaculate aircraft, I often hear people whinging about the state of a plane as if they had any concept of how much they cost to run and how tight the margins are. If you want amazing aircraft, you need to pay £250/hr so that the school makes their 5% and the plane stays equipped and clean. Noone, not a single person thinks that price is realistic so we have to keep flying tommies and 152s.

The best flight school, has an owner who is doing it for fun and enjoys it, has instructors who enjoy it, a CFI who understands how to manage customers and staff and aircraft that will do the job well enough and a comfortable lounge/kitchen and provides free tea and coffee. Most importantly a good flight school does *not* go bust.

[kestrel539]

steakandchips

"NPPL- Can be by either a RTO as above with a CAA instructor or with a BGA Instructor who has a FULL MOTORGLIDER rating. These hours will NOT count towards a EASA PPL and you would have to redo them. "

Are you inferring that if you hold a full NPPLSLMG there will be NO cross credit should you wish to upgrade to an EASA TMG rating?

[B4aeros]

Hi steakandchips,

As a BGA motorglider instructor I am fully aware of the differences between motorglider instruction & NPPL SLMG instruction.

The BGA MGIR ('R' stands for rating, not restricted) does have degrees of privilege but none of them entitle the holder to give NPPL SLMG instruction. A FI(SLMG) rating is issued by the CAA, on the recommendation of the BGA, to those who have successfully completed a BGA-run SLMG instructors course. The two ratings are entirely different & there is no requirement for a FI(SLMG) holder to also hold a MGIR.

The majority of NPPL SLMG instruction is given at BGA clubs by NPPL SLMG instructors. Although the EASA conversion details have not been published, anyone who is awarded an NPPL SLMG is expected to be able to convert their NPPL into an LAPL with TMG privileges. (Note that I am not suggesting that uncompleted training can be carried forward into an EASA licence after the transition period is over.)

I will apply for, & expect to be given, an EASA PPL(S) at some point in the near future, despite the fact that none of my sailplane training has taken place at a RTO. Any suggestion that pre-EASA licences can only be converted to EASA licences if the holder has been trained at a RTO would, as Kestrel539 hints, disenfranchise the majority of NPPL SLMG holders, as well as almost every BGA glider pilot. I can understand that once the transition period is over, all training must be at an ATO, but by then, any BGA club that offers pre-licence training will be an ATO.

Any training that results in the issue of an NPPL SLMG will count towards an EASA licence in the sense that the NPPL will convert to an EASA LAPL. Adding an SSEA should allow the holder to convert to an LAPL with both TMG & SEP privileges.

I don't think it makes much difference how Flying Anorak parlays his gliding experience into a power licence. Close examination & comparison of LASORS, NPPL licence allowances & EASA legislation is too much of an effort at this time of night after a day's flying.