Shut down engine after fire warning msg disappears ?

[wingtip777]

Engine fire warning came out, boeing pilots will shutt down the engine and pull out the fire extinguisher selector then wacth if the msg dispear, this is the sop. But some fellows think if the fire msg dispear after thrust idle , they would not need to shutt down! I will definitely follow the sop, but question is why we still have to shutt down after msg gone? What is the sop for airbus in this case? Thanks a lot!

[Flightmech]

A fire warning that extinguishes when the thrust lever is reduced to idle is most likely a hot-spot bleed leak onto the fire detection elements. Maybe depending on the location of a bleed leak (downstream of a valve that could isolate it) then maybe it could be shut-off and normal thrust restored (subject to anti-ice requirements of course)

[wingtip777]

Flightmech

so you mean you won't shutt down in this case?

[rudderrudderrat]

Hi wingtip777,

If I received an Eng Fire warning, then I'd shut it down.
If I was really struggling for performance (suppose the warning was on the second engine to be shut down), then I'd try as Flightmech suggests.

[aerobat77]

on the bae146 we had a procedure for exact this situation . when fire warning was triggered- thrust lever idle and fire handle to the first detent what automatically cuts the bleed air. when fire warning goes off then do not shut but try to restore power. when fire warning stays off , then bleed air of this engine off , pull fire handle in again, monitor and land as soon as practicable.

when fire warning stays on or comes on again after power input fire handle to the second detent which shuts the engine. then turn left and or right to fire left , right or both bottles.

for aircraft which do not have this procedure it may be a good idea to try to cut bleed air ( of course only when no real fire is visible) before finally shut it down and fire the bottle.

[Wizofoz]

In a Boeing, the response to an Engine Fire Warning is to carry out the associated memory Items.

The earliest they can be considered complete is after pulling the Engine fire Switch. IF the warning is extinguished at that point, they may be considered complete.

I therefore cordial disagree with Flightmech- It would be totally against SOPs to try and keep the engine running.

[flaps22]

So you don't shut it down cause, hell, its probably just bleed air blowing over and if you do shut it down, think of all the paperwork you have to do and all that nasty inconvenience of landing right away.
Or maybe that little fire just ate through the wiring harness and she's just burning like a blowtorch but you can't see it.
The SOP is there for a reason, a really good one. Or maybe you just want to throttle back and think about it for a while and see what happens:= :ugh:

[Flightmech]

I'm from maintenance and not a pilot so appreciate I have no justified input. If I was one then I would follow the QRH and do what it tells me. That way I'd probably keep my licence. I was merely suggesting why there could be some differences regarding the OPs question. Aerobat77 has highlighted one already, it depends what your SOPs are:rolleyes:

A satisfactory fire/ovht test would prove harness/system integrity.

[KBPsen]

Over the years engine fire drills have moved from ending the procedure when the fire warning ceases, to always completing the drill including firing the first bottle regardless of when the warning ceased.

Progress or dumbing down?

[flaps22]

I like to think that most SOP's have evolved due to experience or lesson learned. If the fire goes out during the drill and the full procedure is not carried out, isn't it the same as just pulling back the throttle lever to see what happens? When we complete the drill and do the checklist, it's called securing the engine. We can let the mechanic and or TSB figure out what happened to it after we land. Our duty is to get to the hotel in one piece and have our just deserved beer.:ok:

[KBPsen]

It certainly takes some of the thinking and decision making out of the process. Some responsibility too, I suppose.

[3holelover]

Abso-flippin'-lutely you shut it down! Do not even consider keeping it running!

You have no way to know whether it was hot air or fire that triggered the warning, if you leave it running just because the light went out when you throttled back, you could be entering a world of hurt.

[BOAC]

boeing pilots will shutt down the engine and pull out the fire extinguisher selector - my experience is 737 - can you clarify what you use to 'shut down the engine' before you 'pull out the fire extinguisher selector' and what that selector is. It is obviously different.

[Flightmech]

Fuel lever is an instant shutdown (solenoid valve closes on fuel control as with normal start/stop) Pulling the fire handle/switch first isn't in most cases as engine will continue to run for a little longer until it has burnt the fuel between the spar valve and fuel control.

[flaps22]

Pulling the engine fire switch arms the fire bottle, trips the generator, closes the engine fuel valve, closes the bleed.
The drill on the 747 is to close the thrust lever, select the fuel switch to off and the pull the engine fire switch, etc. If the fire light goes out immediately upon pulling the switch do not fire the bottle. If the light remains illuminated after pulling the switch then let her have it.

[BOAC]

err - are either of you 'wingtip'?:ugh:

[Flightmech]

No, sorry:( (It was a case of RTFQ!)

[misd-agin]

1. Immediate actions

2. QRH


:ok:

[BOAC]

Still waiting for our '777 pilot' to respond................

[3holelover]

"question is why we still have to shutt down after msg gone?"
Answer is: Because you may still have a fire that is just not triggering the fire loops... and/or, you may still be feeding a fire/potential fire by way of a fuel leak.... you have no way to know from the cockpit. please shut her down, pull the fire handle and blow at least one bottle!

Thanks mate.

Doing so and finding out later it wasn't necessary will be a lot easier to explain after the fact, than not doing so and finding out it was necessary.

[Speedbird48]

Just one more before this one gets put to bed.

The initial warning may destroy or burn up the fire warning loop, therefore you have no clue as to what has happened, so you shut it down.

This has already been seen, and the QRH is written to cover it without reinventing the wheel.

Speedbird 48.

[grounded27]

From the aspect of liability shut it down! Other factors being closest suitable etc. From a logical standpoint if you reduce throttle and the warning goes away, advance and it returns, there is little if no doubt it is a bleed leak, isolate bleed systems and observe. A bleed leak is going to do nothing more than tear up soft materials within the nacelle. Just how much do you want said engine available for landing (altitude,rwy length etc). We all know SOP does not cover the unstandard condition. The engine has a redundant fire detection system.

[misd-agin]

What if it's a small leak and at idle thrust isn't enough to fed, or start, a fire? What if advancing the throttle puts enough fuel through to feed the fire and you think it's just a bleed leak???

Shut it down.

Let the investigators on the ground figure out if this is an "unstandard"(?) situation.

Please don't go making stuff up unless it's really, really, really, really, non standard ops or something that's way outside of expected ops (KSUX DC-10, Scully/Hudson, Delta KSAN L1011 stab failure, 757 dual deep idle stall, etc, etc).

Oh, the DC-10 in KSUX had redundant hydraulic systems. Redundant, just like the dual fire loops. :sad:

[grounded27]

Please don't go making stuff up unless it's really, really, really, really, non standard ops or something that's way outside of expected ops (KSUX DC-10, Scully/Hudson, Delta KSAN L1011 stab failure, 757 dual deep idle stall, etc, etc).

Oh, the DC-10 in KSUX had redundant hydraulic systems. Redundant, just like the dual fire loops.

The above failures were clear an evident failures of systems and have nothing to do with a false fire warning due to a bleed leak. I am a young man but have experience with old aircraft. A pilot does not have to be a hero to do some simple non-vital troubleshooting, all the above references were vital. Oh I know the DC-10, hey when you have the luxury of a flight engineer to watch all 3 hyd systems dump beyond his control, well this is a hell of allot more threatening than an engine fire warning. Thinking back I was on an MD-11 with 1 loop out on an engine 2.5 hrs into an 8 hr flight, the 2nd loop failed and we simply returned to base. We all knew we had simply lost reliable indication and understood the consequences.

No need to freak out when bitching Betty comes alive, she deserves respect, a little logic is extremely valuable when situational awareness is key!

[grounded27]

What if it's a small leak and at idle thrust isn't enough to fed, or start, a fire? What if advancing the throttle puts enough fuel through to feed the fire and you think it's just a bleed leak???

Shut it down.


At an attempt to decipher this statement, this sort of engine fire has never happened on a jet engine. Fuel pressure is somewhat constant, none the less given the fact it can vary you would experience a constant fire. Retard thrust, bleed will drastically reduce, fuel will burn hard!

[Old Fella]

Every aircraft on which I have operated has had the same immediate actions. If a Fire Warning is illuminated, Shut down the affected engine with the Fire Handle/Switch after confirming Warning and Engine to be shutdown. Why, because the Engine Fire Handle actuates all the appropriate valves and electrical relays to isolate the engine in terms of fuel, hydraulics, bleed air, electrics etc. If the Engine Fire Warning persists after shutting down, fire the first bottle. If the warning extinguishes complete the Clean Up checks as per the Checklist. If the warning persists after firing the first bottle, fire the second. Engine fires are not always able to be seen, so you have to believe that the warning is valid and act accordingly. If you have an uncontrollable fire just pray and fly at a speed which will hopefully blow the fire out. Aircraft manufacturers put a lot of money, time and effort into designing procedures to suit their product. They know what is best I suggest. Follow their published procedures.

[4dogs]

I am not sure if it has changed recently, but the Boeing 717 fire warning procedure included a 'throttle to flight idle' assessment step - if the light went out, the bleed air was isolated and the engine could continue to be operated at Captain's discretion.

Of course, not "real" Boeing but an interesting philosophical conundrum for a merged entity that wouldn't necessarily call themselves the OEM...

Stay Alive,

[Flightmech]

Just to put the "what if the fire had already burned through the loops" to bed, if this was the case then an EICAS/ECAM/STATUS/ADVISORY etc etc message of some kind would be displayed and a simple fire test would prove integrity (wouldn't it?)

[aerobat77]

and a simple fire test would prove integrity (wouldn't it?)

@ flightmech : that is pretty right.

What if it's a small leak and at idle thrust isn't enough to fed, or start, a fire? What if advancing the throttle puts enough fuel through to feed the fire and you think it's just a bleed leak???

@ misd agin : here you missed again. such a scenario will not happen due to reasons grounded wrote.

in general of course the abnormal checklist is the guideline what to to , it may be aircraft specific.

i always smile when emergencies and procedures are discussed . most the gents here are flying for virtual airlines without a doubt and of course rush in shutting down and train themselfes at engine out situations behind the monitor. the very few ones who are not just hope to never hear the fire bell. shutting down an engine which is not obviously at a real fire or catastrophic failure and produces thrust is a big decision.

especially when in bad weather/ IMC conditions, high gross weights, mountains in the area etc etc. your first thought is to see mother earth in one piece and not what the investigators will say. but thats only understandable for the gents who ever felt how the fear tastes sitting behind the steerings.

best regards

[16024]

On the CRJ there is a Red Light warning for Bleed leaks, but that comes with a "Bleed air duct" aural warning. There's no memory (recall) item, and the QRH leaves you with an idling engine, and no further guidance. (Been there).
On the Boeing, which we mostly seem to be talking about, once you have started into the memory items, you are committed. Why wouldn't you? (Been there, too).
Even if you just get a short warning (lights and/or bell) that goes away before you start the drill, I would think carefully before disregarding it.

[wingtip777]

BOAC
FOR 777， the memory items including cutoff the fuel control switch before pull out the fire switch. pulling out the fire switch is to close the spar valve, i think.

[wingtip777]

Speedbird 48
the 777 QRH says : pull out fire switch, if the msg still shown, release the bottle. that means if the msg gone, we don't have to release the bottles. if the loop is damaged by fire, then this drill is not acceptable, right?

another intersting thing is : the QRH doesn't say what to do if the msg dispear!!???:ugh::ugh:

[lomapaseo]

I was under the impression that if a fire loop is damaged it will annunciate as if it were a fire.

Mechanics on here please set me straight

[misd-agin]

The OP stated that some guys think if the light has gone out they don't have to shut the engine down. That's "making up stuff".

Summary - shut it down, unless some highly unlikely to occur event happened that makes delaying the burning engine shutdown the prudent course of action.

Odds of that exception happening? Small, but it's amazing to watch guys start to run down the "maybe's it's this" trail. early in the trouble shooting. :{:ugh:

[BOAC]

pulling out the fire switch is to close the spar valve, i think. - come on! Are you REALLY a 777 pilot? You "THINK"?? Don't you know? What does it do?the QRH doesn't say what to do if the msg dispear - are you sure?

Folks - here we have a 777 'Captain' who in Feb 2010 posted

"HI THERE IS A BOX ON THE ARR CHART OF EHAM, INSIDE THE BOX IS : "clearance limit is artip. " WHAT DOES IT MEAN IN THAT CASE? THANKS A LOT!
ARTIP IS A WAY POINT OF THE ARR AT EHAM."

Answers on a postcard?

[Denti]

Smells like another case of FSX pilot.

Guys, there is nothing wrong asking questions for your simulations (although at some point we need a simulator forum), but make it clear in the beginning that it is sim question.

I would be surprised if the 777 QRH doesn't exactly state what happens in the case the fire warning ceases, i know for sure the 737 does and i would not think the 777 is less sophisticated than the small one.

[Flightmech]

8.1.2
8.1.2 FIRE PROTECTION
B-777 Quick Reference Handbook

[] FIRE ENG L,R
Condition: Fire is detected in the engine

1 A/T ARM switch
(affected side) . . . . .Confirm . . . . . . . . . . . OFF
2 Thrust lever
(affected side) . . . . .Confirm . . . . . . . . . . . Idle
3 FUEL CONTROL switch
(affected side) . . . . .Confirm . . . . . . . . CUTOFF
4 Engine fire switch
(affected side) . . . . .Confirm . . . . . . . . . . . Pull
5 If the FIRE ENG message stays shown:
Engine fire switch . . . . . . . . Rotate to the stop
and hold for 1 second
If after 30 seconds, the FIRE ENG message stays
shown:
Engine fire switch. . . . . . . .Rotate to the
other stop and
hold for 1 second
6 APU selector
(if APU available) . . . . . . . . . . . .START, then ON
7 Transponder mode selector . . . . . . . . . . TA ONLY
8 Plan to land at the nearest suitable airport.
9 Do not accomplish the following checklist:

(Continues)

[grounded27]

I was under the impression that if a fire loop is damaged it will annunciate as if it were a fire.

Mechanics on here please set me straight


We generally have 2 types of loops, the salt type that if damaged will generally open the circuit giving a fault, if center conductor grounded to outer case will gave a fire light indication and normally you need a 2ND loop to give a full warning. "the salt melts and allows for conductivity"

The 2ND and most common type of modern loop relies on gas filled tubes that have pressure switches, high press = fire, low pressure =failure and once again you need both loops to go high pressure to get the full on lights and bells warning.

In my experience 2 failures will not give a fire warning, you understand you now have no way to know if your engine develops a fire and operate by SOP or Captains discretion.

[Meikleour]

grounded27: I have an interesting tale to tell....

situ: 747 Classic in cruise about one hour into the flight when we get a fire warning on the shutdown APU. F/E does a fire test on both loops and confirms that the warning is genuine. Fire bottle discharged and warning ceases ........... for about two minutes and then comes on again continuously! Diversion initiated to nearest airport. Warning was on all the time until about 500ft. on finals when it went out. Landed with fire services in attendance who then confirmed that no fire appeared obvious.

Engineering subsequently discovered that the twin fire loops that should have run in parallel about the APU bay had been fitted so that at one point they crossed over. This led to the insulation being abbraded giving a valid fire warning + a valid continuity check!

Moral to the story? You cant predict everything! There is generally one course of action that is the safest you just have to realise what that is!

[grounded27]

Thanks for the share Meikleour, I fully agree with safety as the best policy. There was no other option but to assume a fire in your situation, especially after the fire appeared to respond to the agent for several minutes.

[hedgehopper]

aerobat77 said
"on the bae146 we had a procedure for exact this situation . when fire warning was triggered- thrust lever idle and fire handle to the first detent what automatically cuts the bleed air."

May I suggest that you re-view your technical manual.

Pulling the fire handle out to the initial baulk, operates a micro-switch that lights "ENG FIRE HANDLE" annunciator on the MWS.

Remember "White over Red"

This is so the Handling pilot dose not have to look up to confirm that the correct handle has been pulled!

the second detent, or full travel, 3 additional micro-switches operate that:
(a) close bleed air
(b) trip Engine driven Gen on engine 1 & 4
(c) close Hyd systems on engine 2 & 3

and then rotating left or right 90 degrees fires bottle 1 or 2

[lomapaseo]

Thanx grounded27

My experience with fire loops is quite limited, but my memory is;

1. With dual podded engines there have been several accidents where one engine failed and the wrong engine shutdown due to interpretation of the fire alarm. B52, B1, etc.

2. Smoke in cockpit from an engine fire that was not detected due to fireloop placement only near hot section

3. Fireloops that no longer function when the engine nacelle leaves, but the fire remains.

4. Fires that spread to composite reverser cascades on the ground that are difficult to detect and extiniguish

[wingtip777]

BOAC
it doesn't matter if i am or not a 777 pilot. what i mean "i think " is how they disign the CHECKLIST, not the airplane.
is it a shame to ask something you don't know here?

[wingtip777]

the QRH doesn't say what to do if the msg dispear

- are you sure?



yes someone posted it on

B-777 Quick Reference Handbook

[] FIRE ENG L,R
Condition: Fire is detected in the engine

1 A/T ARM switch
(affected side) . . . . .Confirm . . . . . . . . . . . OFF
2 Thrust lever
(affected side) . . . . .Confirm . . . . . . . . . . . Idle
3 FUEL CONTROL switch
(affected side) . . . . .Confirm . . . . . . . . CUTOFF
4 Engine fire switch
(affected side) . . . . .Confirm . . . . . . . . . . . Pull
5 If the FIRE ENG message stays shown:
Engine fire switch . . . . . . . . Rotate to the stop
and hold for 1 second
If after 30 seconds, the FIRE ENG message stays
shown:
Engine fire switch. . . . . . . .Rotate to the
other stop and
hold for 1 second
6 APU selector
(if APU available) . . . . . . . . . . . .START, then ON
7 Transponder mode selector . . . . . . . . . . TA ONLY
8 Plan to land at the nearest suitable airport.
9 Do not accomplish the following checklist:

(Continues)

[Denti]

Actually, it does say what to do.

[BOAC]

t doesn't matter if i am or not a 777 pilot. what i mean "i think " is how they disign the CHECKLIST, not the airplane. is it a shame to ask something you don't know here? - yes. The point you have missed is that

1) If you are not an 'ATPL' qualified 'Captain' as you claim to be say so OR
2) You are operating a B777 and thus have access to all the documentation and training staff you need

Either you are incredibly poorly trained or have not absorbed ANY of your training and should not be operating OR you need to be asking your question in a different forum in a different way.. Which is it? Read Denti/4 Jan again? Honesty is the best policy.

[aerobat77]

Pulling the fire handle out to the initial baulk, operates a micro-switch that lights "ENG FIRE HANDLE" annunciator on the MWS.

Remember "White over Red"

This is so the Handling pilot dose not have to look up to confirm that the correct handle has been pulled!

the second detent, or full travel, 3 additional micro-switches operate that:
(a) close bleed air
(b) trip Engine driven Gen on engine 1 & 4
(c) close Hyd systems on engine 2 & 3

and then rotating left or right 90 degrees fires bottle 1 or 2

@ hedgehopper : very good posting which shows that you know what you are talking about ! was you in the mighty simulators in manchester at bae systems or where do you have this details from about the bae146?

its pretty right what you write about the "white over red" - the first detent also activates this light which is above the fire warning light - here i must say its a very good idea to visually confirm you are about to pull the correct fire handle.

when it comes to bleed air cut on the first detent i,m pretty but no absolutely sure since i,m not current anymore on this plane, but i still have the training documents from eurowings and baesystems so i can check and report .

definitivly the bae146 has a procedure for checking a bleed air leak , we trained this at manchester many times. and definitivly its procedúre not to shut when you can isolate this leak by cutting bleed air. when you can not isolate the leak its procedure to shut.

best regards !

[Rick777]

I don't know what Wingtip's quals are, but what he posted is exactly what my current QRH shows. The first place where you have any choice about what to do is step 5 where is says ff the message stays shown to fire the bottle.

[BOAC]

exactly what my current QRH shows. - so that is exactly what you are expected to do. What exactly is the issue here?

[FE Hoppy]

I don't know what's happened to PPRuNe lately but there appears to be a flight simmers takeover. Along with some very ill informed rubbish spouted from people who should know better.

There isn't a jet flying that was certified in the last 30 years that doesn't demand a shutdown for an engine fire warning. No matter how brief the warning was. There is some variation as to whether the extinguisher is fired after the engine is isolated but in most cases it is.

It would take a very brave(foolish) man to keep an engine running for no better reason than the warning went out.

Here is a summary of a few QRH:

BBJ/73 classic/73 NG - shut it down and if the fire switch light or ENG OVERHEAT light stays illuminated use the extinguisher
Avro RJ (aerobat77 take note) - shut it down and fire the extinguisher.
Embraer 145 and Ejet - Shut it down and fire the extinguisher.
l1011 shut it down and fire the extinguisher.
A330 (RR) shut it down and fire the extinguisher.

Get the picture?

[aerobat77]

I don't know what's happened to PPRuNe lately but there appears to be a flight simmers takeover

thats pretty right.

lol, what an efford for probably just flight simulation purposes, but ok, i,m home again and looked at the bae146 type rating documents . some pictures may clarify more than writing romans... here we go


http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/8272/img012vs.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/24/img012vs.jpg/)
http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/8383/img015kopie.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/714/img015kopie.jpg/)

so some facts , but in regards only to the Bae146 :

-hedgehopper was right, the first detent of the fire handle does not trip bleed air , it just shows "white over red" for confirmation you pull the right handle.

-the bae 146, like mentioned by me above does not require a shutdown with a bleed air leak when you can isolate it and requires a shutdown when you cannot isolate it . in every case when a bleed air leak occours turn bleed air off at this engine. further it has a separate warning system for bleed air leaks ( pylon overheat) and a separate procedure for dealing with it.

-at a real engine fire of course shut the engine but, aerobat noted :

Avro RJ (aerobat77 take note) - shut it down and fire the extinguisher.

ONLY fire the extinguisher when fire warning persists after shutdown by pulling the fire handle to full detent ( note three ) . so dear fe hoppy, be more careful next time .:cool:

nice weekend to all !

[FE Hoppy]

Your checklist is out of date my friend.

[aerobat77]

that maybe, like mentioned not current anymore on the bae146, since three years a "downgrade" to corporate aviation on a cheyenne III.

but the procedure did not changed, you do not shut on this aircraft an engine for a bleed air leak that you can isolate and you only fire a bottle when fire warning after shutdown continues my friend.

cheers

[grounded27]

All these itchy trigger fingers scare the sh%te out of me.

[wingtip777]

BOAC
so give a good anwser thant everyone will agree with to this question if you are well trained.

[Sciolistes]

As BOAC says, follow the QRH. If circumstances make it obvious that following the QRH may not be the safest thing to do, then do the safest thing. That's the answer.

[lomapaseo]

As BOAC says, follow the QRH. If circumstances make it obvious that following the QRH may not be the safest thing to do, then do the safest thing. That's the answer.


Not a bad answer, but most of the discussion examines how do you decide what is the safest course and when to vary from the QRH.

If we don't have these discussions than you might be a free range cowboy and flunk your next sim test :)