Seperation Standards, Near Misses, ATSB Reports - SAFETY Compromised??

[Up-into-the-air]

It is a time of the year to reflect on the broader picture going into a New Year - 2012

I read the ATSB [October 2011 event] report, Investigation: AO-2011-131 - Breakdown of separation - Airbus A320, VH-VGR and Boeing 737, VH-VOD, near Melbourne Airport, Vic., 12 October 2011 (http://atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2011/aair/ao-2011-131.aspx) which refers to the broader issue of AirServices and seperation standards, training and a range of other issues following the 5th December 2010 event. [http://atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2010/aair/ao-2010-104.asp].

Ben Sandilands raises this in late October, but this is an on-going issue.

Australian jets in peril in new near miss inquiries | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/10/14/atsb-flags-two-more-dangerous-air-traffic-control-incidents-when-will-minister-act/comment-page-1/#comment-9813)

Two of the blogs show the spin the industry is placing on this, and I place these in full:
dnsmax Posted October 14, 2011 at 10:27 am | Permalink

Ben, Your blog is one of the only true sources of non-mainstream media (becoming more mainstream I note) that readers have to turn to with respect to Aviation matters. News are captured by their advertisers (QF, JQ etc) so I expect nothing honest from them.

But I would expect better from you than to comb press releases from the ATSB that they are investigating a breakdown of separation that occurred only two days ago, and shrilly announce and impending metal rain because of incompetence by Air Traffic Controllers!

If like the other reports, questions are raised about the training and checking standards, qualifications, fatigue etc of the controllers, then fine – go investigative and reveal the shortcomings. But give the ATSB a few minutes to produce a preliminary report! Not all BOS are caused by the controllers – often there are issues in the cockpit, in the procedures, in the FMC database, in language…. a myriad of things that can line up on the day.

Ben Sandilands Posted October 14, 2011 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

dnsmax, In the business jet incident the notification is unambiguous. It says (as linked in the report) “Separation standards were infringed when a Gulfstream G-IV was cleared to descend through the same level as a Boeing 737 on a crossing track.”

In the Tullamarine incident the word the ATSB usually uses as short hand for a pilot issue which is ‘procedural’ is missing. This subtlety seems to have been consistently used by the ATSB for some time, however, it is indeed a possibility that Jetstar or Virgin Australia departed from the usual pre-occupations of a climb out and decided to get close, or made some other procedural error that will be spelled out by the ATSB.

Whatever it proves to be, it will be reported here, and as is always the case, the original material will be hyperlinked so that readers can draw their own conclusions.

A careful reading of ATSB and for that most other safety investigation reports is always rewarding because the short summary never truly encompasses the full value, and they are where the investigation often lays bare the heart of the matter at hand.

My thoughts are as follows:

Just a bit more "jargonese" for there not being a massive and very big "smoking hole". Remember, the original changes to air traffic control world wide have their roots in the mid-air in USA over the Grand Canyon.

I am sure another one would get even more publicity and the amount of "political spin" on this would be huge. Reports such as this are meant to give a means to fixing problems, but what we seem to get today is "spin doctoring" to explain away the little problem. Have a look at the MOU between casa [my choice - little letters] and BASI. And I ask if this is about getting "the report" fixed at an early stage. This is what is inferred here.

Have another little look at the lengths casa went to in the Lockhart River and Toowoomba crashes. Who does Ian Harvey get around $250,000 a year from - casa records show in the annual report of 2010 to 2011 $154,736, Ian Harvey in the Lockahrt River inquest was "Counsel assisting the Coroner".

You make up your own mind whether our Australian system of "SAFETY" is being compromised.

[Kharon]

Know and like Ben very well; gentleman, scholar, enthusiast. But over the last, lets say twelve months, he has been a little off the beam.

For instance; hammering the poor, benighted ATSB, who do not have a feather to fly with is a bit OTT. Financially, politically and man power wise, they simply cannot keep up with the increasing demand for service.

Look at their Senate submission (Pilot Training etc. etc.). They simply do not have the resources to respond correctly and in full. This is a real story; the voice of reason, supported by fact and considered technical advice. Invaluable?, you bet. Lost to us because casa gets the big bucks. Does bull-dust baffles brains ? - Oh I think so.

The road to Nirvana is paved with bodies. Real bodies, real blood, real fire, real sea water, real passengers, real pilots; all with families.

The road to perdition is paved with spin, grandiose statements and endless amounts of dubious, inutile pony pooh; i.e. casa speak.

Best New year present - give ATSB the money, the horsepower and my best wishes.

H.N.Y all. ) excluding the obvious( :D

Selah.

[gobbledock]

Kharon,
Couldn't agree more about the ATSB issue. There are some very talented investigators there, but the number of the 'old school' is gradually diminishing, much to the bureaucratic managements delight. The ATSB has been short staffed for years, try the last 5 to 10 in particular. In that same period of time air travel has grown, low cost carrier services grown rapidly, airline CEO's have become even bigger morons and the Regulator who can't even bring in a set of rules in a 23 year time frame has become an even bigger basket case than ever in it's pathetic history.

This has lead to more accidents/incidents and a greater workload in which the ATSB have to trudge through. The poor investigators have to then deal with bureaucratic management who fudge the figures to make the organization smell like roses while behind the scenes it doesn't.

Then we have the issue of a Regulator hell bent on nailing industry to a cross (select members of industry that is) while being run by sycophants. Even the ATSB in the past 18 months has started handing out section 32's like lollies because CASA is murdering any industry trust and the only way the ATSB can get people to talk is to flick them a S32. So what does that tell you about the Regulator? A sad state of affairs indeed.

Up-into-the-air, you make a good post. Our industry has a lot to ponder over and reflect upon. There is always hope that 2012 will be a better one for aviation, but I have yet to see even an inkling of that.

I shall leave 2011 and enter into 2012 the way I see it - TICK TOCK TICK TOCK.

[Centaurus]

You make up your own mind whether our Australian system of "SAFETY" is being compromised.

Having just watched in horror Air Crash investigation TV which this evening covered the Adam Air (Indonesia) Boeing 737 crash (loss of control in IMC because the crew hadn't a clue how to get out of a spiral dive of their own making) - it strikes me that although there may be occasional cock-ups by pilots and ATC in Australia, there is nothing - repeat nothing - remotely compared to the appalling flight safety record of aviation in Indonesia.

The slightest hint of a flight safety issue in Australia (whether real or imagined) attracts the Australian media like bees to honey - but beyond our shores the media frenzy quickly vanishes.

[Up-into-the-air]

ATSB not correctly funded - casa overfunded

SUGGESTION 2 for a positive change to go forward in 2012:

Fix ATSB’s funding.

In the recent Senate Committee into ATSB put a submission as submission 25 [http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committ...bmissions.htm] (http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rat_ctte/pilots_2010/submissions.htm%5D) for the Senate Inquiry into Pilot Training and Airline Safety Including the Transport Safety Investigation Amendment (Incident Reporting) Bill 2010

It reads in part:

In 2009 – 10 the ATSB received approximately 15 100 notifications through its mandatory accident and incident reporting system (8 393 were classified as safety occurrences). During that period the ATSB had the resources to commence 70 new investigations. Ten safety research and analysis reports were released in this period.

I don't think they are going to get on top of this easily.

The funding issues is great also, which covers all the ATSB marine, aviation and road responsibilities, as shown below [casa has over $170m]:

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5139/basidata20102011.png



http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/basidata20102011.png/
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/163/basidata20102011.png/http://www.pprune.org/data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAA7gAAAKECAIAAACilAFuAAAgA ElEQVR4nO3d23qkyK4uUL//S3tfzG/VdicKhUKQJJBjXLXJOApM/OWubv/8AgAAGz+fXgAAAFyRoAwAAAFBGQAAAoIyAAAEhkH557+mDbaOHXPPJi/lqfv6rG+rZ/EbpP6kHTXOBxdZbwMARScF5f3NnnHyPXJTV/CYela2sOdbaTpmY66PL3K1DQAUnRGUi82Wxrypx2zkap5R2MoWtt8O+Tdd+O V0zN44n1rkUhsAqJucSb9H/BQn/LRycBbHv5HHbORqHlDY1QyaXKy0ebnY6HKRRdbbAMCqjwXl8Hq95e1sD/JteSspYTTsqOVqdAgXGU6XDN5rll9fWliyr8r4lb6VuZZGy3vlXnoVSzSdt3 7xg4sstgGAhlOD8vT0mh6EefcrG53lyRkffvRSh6RN3rG+yPp07WajZTQWtl r/A3d97C3L71ResXxt4ZVil9HFDy6y2AYAGrJ/iZlcmXYZNchbbptNu9xLUtv8+F/qnl/M15avoTjdarPKpMWF5bvrDVWvZ6XZaCXTLUy31ljbapf2Ot+3yGIbAGg4KSj//jcf/FVp85iTr17b4vW8jJUBp0udTldcVbvZnoVNx6zU6gq7nu7rZ/ZQFavau/jBRTbaAEBRM58tfRq2zI/JkZWtXVExLtSv19NGsYZ55fesqt1sz8Km2x8Ne5Fd57ZLTYbKx2+PMyraaYt stAGAorXcsOcASyaqjPOM86++5eL1oyLIS5vR+HtW1W62Z2HT7f+kPrvr3Ha d+VD5+PUuo+3kjd+3yEYbACh6e1Be+qg3zo3Ut1y8Xk8b0wJWeu1Z1bHNikN Ntz/t+Kld537+KC44H7/eZbSdbeNzFtloAwBFa3/zYenM2445vd6b4kbqWy5ez2tbGXCp155VHdusONR0+5fddS5vXNlUu0t9nec sstEGAIqOOaWKHUfqLe9+/iVb7jUOu9cvFqf7eXNkXJ20vrDK9hvTjQasNCsWJ1FpeVR9Vsf5yCJX2wBA0 eeDcr3lAw6/7UYqVU3qkJdxenF1xtEgvWb5jMVmxd0lDfbM/lN+gKcrSYYtTlFZ82p9Vsf5yCJX2wBAUSmxTdss9U0aF8/X+0qywrRLvfL1i/l0247FZfRWm8/SW1h9+8UiJ82SHRVX0hi8OFcy4HRVS+N8cJH1NgBQ5DiBCdkLAL6Tsx8mBGU A+E7OfpgQlAHgOzn7YUJQBoDv5OwHAICAoAwAAAFBGQAAAoIyAAAEBGUAAAg IygAAEBCUAQAg8J+g/DOzMG6ty4H/h9o9q60MuH+FFEu6//E73/u+R05wozp/gwveiMqSLrhsgP0eEpSPjVaHVIAXxWLetPjv+x55t3vV+Rtc8EaES9p+ebVl A+z3hKC8XeGeU/+oCvDizEfiFi6y04ssg39ucUeuv0KAQ8z/9Xdz3E8E5UNGzkdzNrQJyi8ustOLLIN/rn9Hrr9CgKP0g/LPxqh7kjKn19vv4m33nUHt5XqjWViu1QJOO24/XRp8uqNp3ZLpVtf8ssK8wjvrMB0qb1Dc+LTLqMF0bfXlbVc1XWF9zHyu6TpX i5YPtb9ulS6HL7K+4MYGK2vIdzRqORo/n321VgAnawbl7bvypfGowahZfeTqxgpzTbe2NH54Pa9DpTKrHZO+xcGLO62M ljQojrNa0jfVoT7Uni71wraXN1W8p5X7tTTj+bes2KZ+Xw5cZL6MQ8bv7Shs vG1Tnz3biawMXEAnKIfXRy/N0du2eKX3xgx71YeqvK9HHy3VobLxXsfGqsJNVYpW7FUZqjJasTLtOtSLPG1 QnH1aitXaFjdVH3BpzHzZRxWtN/hq3bbeushRs9F0+VD5+EsdG8VcvbJaBIBzdILyqOX0Tbq93nv/1tdT7DLdVOWNv3NHR3XMN7K0+Ongxw5V7FifMfy0MVSl7AfOPt3RscvbfrRn 3uJ6KhVYKtpRNcmXdMIiK2s4dvzKlo8qb7sZwKf0g/LPQN49bzYas/7GXG1fH+1lzN4G6xfbHUcrnw4eXp9WcnWofLRKx/qMv+95Sut16M2ej5ksrzfX9qOdZclLUb+4tJH6fqcTTTu+e5HTNRw7fmXvlZ FPLgLAOZpBeftWPeQtuX1l56/v6aqOMt3vtmXSrHKx3bGy2qRKfz+qFLNYh+JolY6NGVfrUC/XO2ZPxszHCU3nSlbeK0t4vXixXbT6fsO5RnWbdnzHIqdrOHz8aREqI59cBIB zdILy+96Se16O4fu9Pcj0oz3HQLuAR3UsbrNSz2IdiqNVOh5Y+T1DvW/2pBRHLS//aOe8lb3XB+xNurMmq72OXeR0Ye8b/2ejPvLJRQA4xw2CcvGNeciLdXtCjK7vOQbaBTyqY16rfx/tKfv2evEGTTseWPn3DbX/Lpyz0/CjPfMW13P4Ro4aKinUOYtsr+HA8adDXaEIAOc4Jij//DG6knccXSm+Lhuv/mmzkcoG8/VXLh7YsbiqUQXycuUzThffGG00zoF1aKzhwNmTLqNeq8vLN1scoV69/cueFm26vN4Ctt66yHC0ZA35UKszJh0bxdwze3Id4GSdoPz73zf1i2mD4ntz1 GVpMflce0Yrtsw7JhfbHfOFVUqRbHm1YtPFJ6ONrozGObAO9aHeMXtlhJ/ao5gsL/+oMu9ozHzA/OJ03vqk0/UX2yQVe98i82XUe+1sNlp52CzpVR95eh3gZM2g/Pvfl+C2S/jP9bdh0iVfSeONXByz0mw7S9i9crHdcbuwbbNpKZZqNSpFb8xts0plRtd7dZ hef+vs4Zh5bXvLq3/Uq9LOi0tFm17v1a3e5cBF1hfc2OCo2c9GvvK8AvXZV68DnMxriIBT6grcBUI eDIDTeNXyyjF8EW4EIQ8GwGm8avn/Kv+KltO4EYQ8GACn8arl/5OSL8W9IOTBADiNVy0AAAQEZQAACAjKAAAQEJQBACAgKAMAQEBQBgCAgKAMA FfxszFtVhxw5zjPcHJ56224LLcNAC5hG+O2AavSJmzfmOthzizvahsuy20Dg M/bxrIwqI3aFMfsjfMAJ5d3qQ1X5rYBwOeFcaqS2/KLjS5H7uoyzixvvQ3X57YBwEX1ktw2ognKoTeVt9iGW3DbAOCidia5epfRxW d7U3mLbbgFtw0AriiPaHmz1S6jiw/2vvIW23ALbhsAXM7PH9uLYct8nN7Fp3preRttuCy3DQCuJYxxv4LyQd5d3kY bLsttA4ALGcW4X0H5CCeUt9GGy3LbAOAqkhj3Kyjvdk55G224LLcNAK7iqNT b6PINee6c8jbacFluGwBcQiN1TbuMGqyO8wBnlne1DZfltgHA5/2kps2mwxane9f2Pu3k8q624bLcNgD4vGKS2zYuDjud9JhtXNVHyltvw2W5bQ AAEBCUAQAgICgDAEBAUAYAgICgDAAAAUEZAAACgjIAAAQEZQAACAjKAAAQEJ QBACAgKAMAQEBQBgCAgKAMAAABQRkAAAKCMgAABARlAAAICMoAABAQlAEAIC AoAwBAQFAGAICAoAwAAAFBGQAAAoIyAAAEBGUAAAgIygAAEBCUAQAgICgDAE BAUAYAgICgDAAAAUEZAAACgjIAAAQEZQAACAjKAAAQEJQBACAgKAMAQEBQBg CAgKAMAACB16D8M/aR9X3cBSvg7rQpFHBf+du+dyI4Ryrn6SFn7tdW+O4WgvIX3uMLbt/daVMl4NbqMa74rnOOVM7TQ87c7yzvM8RBOWj3ld9FV9vy6C58591ZpUTATeX 5bJTtKmOu9nqSPBbX2/Qm4i6qQTn/6KkuteV8Mb4Pp9QHuKOf/wo/HfWaDrvU5WEqpWuX96Xlt9X2SQ4IyqOHYGmoyltgaaLkYuV5/dkIV7J/C6tLyhvkGymOtnNr+X5HvYoF6RX5d3NDw40DXM329Zg0qFxPGng9/k+lDsVabY9FbmfXX734GciH+o2+80eD1BvkG5kOMtrv35b5Tle3kAyYV6woX 1Uy4M6tvakgvTF/BhtZqiTAFYSvr9E7bfqu2zbwevyfSh2KtXo53Y5ZH+fa9R/zTb/NKr2KgyRXDpklNF3JUVuYrqfxPfapuxNeDG/ZUkH2F7lRQ4DrKB5A+fVtm78OW+tt1eu2NJTy3tdCUA5bBiPOnozKo7N/kNVZQi8NDqxD5cr00+Q2XefuFHvlV966HYBbqJ9lLydCPuD2BPlm9bottVHe +1r+4ejL9ZFR9/DLfJBwAY0G06WO9piXIq/PqE3lyvTT1aJNdxR+mdetXpM9BTlkJaOaANxC/mJPXo/F0bwkKxXotVHb+6oG5VEEmX5zVr7MB0lmX2owXWpQnXTxycXpCitX6p9WZgy vn3B3isvLrxyykkoNAS4reYkVX4nTob72PflSvXabl5bJmcVdLEec/GI8x/+13HapDNILQIckpJeOS3XIF9AoxVKDyqperrzp7hSXl19533MCcBdLL7G8cf 2M+AY//2dnm23j0EGr5iQLEaeRol5avimKvS8hvXScTlRfQKMUSw0qq3q58qa7U1xef uV9zwnAXfTet/WhKh2fp32+HD4L17QW+4rhZvRNuxTd8nyzbfC3zehKcUmjXqtbqDdIBq+s+e ePxhRvvTvhxUZB9q+kUmGAy8rf/9OWxV5f9Z6sn7wnTMQ1LfwxNPmmejHqm380GmQagOqDVJY6neWQLVSuJEuqb Ke+5cpH9a1VLjYKsn8leREALm7pRT3tO32pPt6oAqODY/UA2s713v3wHstBefTtN/0eqzxD4SDJpKMR8l7TpY5mmW4wL9HqlenCimWv7Pfdd+flYrsgO1dSv/UAV5O8vqYnQuWN+m3vxu32t6WotPktnOBfWN7HcNsAACAgKAMAQEBQBgCAgK AMAAABQRkAAAKCMgAABARlAAAICMoAABAQlAEAICAoAwBAoPSrj/Nfm7ntdfAaAYCC3ins7M6t/qLv4i++5hZKvzV+dHe3Fz0EAPApgvLhGnlXUH6S4IaF9zK5mF8BAN6tF8UEu Kmjoo4i39T8h8TJp4IyAHxc72eWftI5NapM7w8kx62L88x/bDxqEH6DhZ/mQ20bbAdJRhg1G41fGbC3yMpEycW88gAQCk/hN/X6NqPKrFZMhe9r+efBYUB8+Wbb2o6QtMm7T5vl408HbC8ybJBMUSwXABT1Dh FHz8ioMksVU95b6wflsH0SKJNZpl2SlUzD6Gj8vFdjkS9XDpkFAOoE5WMJyr wlKC91qbdJuky3sBRh3zfI6iwAUCcoH2v/Sa22d/eZoDxSX0Y+Vz7+tm/4ZWORjQbTpQJAUe8Ece6MjCpTr5ja3p2gPPyyschGg+lSAaCod4I4d0ZGldk TVLiXyd8wfm09C4u9+Ji0X21Wfyj/tSzuYnX2Q0oBAHWC8rEEZdaC5sungnJyUVAG4GSC8rEEZYa3P8yO00BZCa/TwXc+f8XFJ9fbi9w22G58qRQAUCcoH64YdSoduaP4Fv4MJM3+Xgmb1Qff+Qg WF/9bCMqri+zttLJUAJjKD7XVXvzWTupKJOCm5n8dOU9vL5/Wn5XVB240dXH9SbPpFHu+K166r5YCAOpG50jlxHznum4vP6nrF7kdtxAAAAK CMgAABARlAAAICMoAABAQlAEAICAoAwBAQFAGAICAoAwAAAFBGQAAAoIyAAA EBGUAAAj8/6D8U7Aw7vrvN/eb6AHgReUs3nNYN3o9yVvL+7f7EYvlA94SlN/xJHnOAPg2leO4d2TvOeUfo13exiyHLpzzvCWYviMoA8BXyXPby5Vtm8rgq72 epFLeUbWLhfrmP4Q8hqAMAFc0Oha3Sa7ed0+vh2mXt1iln//av2A+oh+UR7c/eTJ+Nuozvnz678vpU7inQTJLPqzvDQDeZHsY5W3qnzq2fsv5pz6Iqt5aJyj/DISf5l1+ouxbWc90tFGb+kaSEVa7JPsCgCV/j5XREZMfPb1eX6JXuvaAXFw/KCdXpg2KvaaNK1fqDQ6cZbp3AGgoHp2Ccs80/DTqo6q3dth30d/rxWdif1BeXUNlkXmb/IpXDwBvdUhQDhu0g+CTVILyapVU9dY+EJRHj9oJQXn/RipBeSRZDABMVU6l/PpLA6fVX8Xtrxbqy6t6d+cF5ek3ZP4kVRpP17B/I/mV5L3jmwSAttFRsnpYh2PWj86nWj2p39eYqzkpKId5Mf8yn3f6vpg+l3s20p 4UAFYlMW5PUD6q192tpuRfQfmbnBqU86FOCMqVUCsoA3AdS4fjnl7feYS9o7 x7GnM1yw9H+NE0xY6uvC8oj75cWudqUC7uFAAqKsdH5agKu6z2ep5zCvWFhX 2SflDeChvkXfKImawnbJwsI3nWl5Y0vTIdEwAqkqNz9dwpnoAnbewa3lre+q dcXP++5t9a00dtO8vScxY2Hj27+SsgaVD5Zkg65vMCQCKKZ5MDq36cTbs8Xr 2800LlBfzO8j6GOwcAAAFBGQAAAoIyAAAEBGUAAAgIygAAEBCUAQAgICgDAE BAUAYAgICgDAAAAUEZAAACgjIAAAQmv/l9+svlD1uH34QOAEdLjtczT/nrq29/tUpfXti7E5QB4LEE5aLi9htV+vLC3l0clD+wDo8RABwnj7+O3X/qf05Y/eOEP4E8gKAMAE8z/TmxY/d/6j9QX029flT/DM2g/K/Z9iEIH4ukfTJv8oStXsz31XuU870kF6fVqCysOMjPf63OUh8EgIv4+67OT4d z13U5lUK9fFqsW31kLm5XUN7mp/DiqP1PlKR77XuDFNsUt58v7++VQxbWHmR1+9MGAFzW6KX977p3+//kFXgp14Ejc3Fr/zHfttn0SuXT6ZeVK40uxStbq+Ms1ap4ZXoLwo2szlsZBIDLSl7joY8s8gqS7 U/P1vbIXN+uoLztOLoyzVuVpzBfQyXh9SYqfposoLK21YW1B1nayHQQAK5seli 8XPzad34ve+wZmVvY9Vcv6leWUt3Sw5qH0ZF6m9EyKr3y69NqVBZfH6S3kek gAFzZ0tv7m1/101M1adYYmbu4cVDOezVSYDEULvXqXawvPh85X2FxI5VtAnBNSy/tb37DJ6fq9KBsjMxdPCQoV9ZTGbCi3mv07bRUjaVlJB23i2lsv/GCAOCDRLqi5FQd2TMyd3HvoPy7GEYrA041SvTSZakaS8uYdlydpT41ABe0dF h88+u9nX/e0YXrODUoJ2FxGiXz7+rii2C6jLDNaNL6yOFHq/t96TXdcqUm+2cB4MqS13jxnP0Sxe03qvTlhb27tX/LkOSn/Eo+2rb7tH0+dX2QpYnqvXZWozfF9uIh2582AOCyRi/tyvv/qxS3Xzl8eyNzTacG5Zfx8+5J47BZ/mk+Tu81MeqVbPBvESobTBaWVOzw7ffqA8DHHX72PVWxCMXDtzEy13TSnXvrU 3K7R/B2CwYA+EK3D8p3DJ13XDMAwLe5a1C+9b8wuuOaAQC+zROC8oHDnuOmywYA+C riGgAABARlAAAICMoAABAQlAEAICAoAwBAQFAGAIDArt/8/FZ/5/X/UwOAxJ5T2yE78pNaGuSt6+R9gju3/5k4ZmWCMgAU7DyyHbIjgjKvd250+8/Pyh4sAJjaHpf1I/tTPwu7tXq5lPcB4kAcNxWUAeBikh9vVTpKckt6KVl576vzrTVq9vfiv38ePS X1BsmqkkdwO35lR6NlJBenG+mtdrrfxiz1QQC4hfab/G9Hx0FdsVbK+xjNv2KRp73fTRrbDltsMJquMX6+l+JKGjs9pBqjNkuzVAYB4 Eb+vsbbL3ZnQVGvUMp7a6X/mG/UJrm47Rt+OW0wmm56pf6yWB18dSO91b5cmRa8Pst0+wDcxc/Y6iDvW+Rj9AqlvLe28HPW7adhl3c0qAS+yvh5l+T66mIqK9lfrtWN+F4FeJj kjK6/8J0OFe0qKe+trf2F9JcrYbN3NAhnH0nGT7aWDLVtOVpzspHGapNBehuZDgLA veSHws5B+KtdJeW9tea/mikGu6MavDSuh8LipvKhwuXVL7ZXW9n16kYq2wTgLkav8aXXu7Ngak+JlPfW 5j8cDT+dBrtjG4Rpb7Kx2nNZf3xHybK308oyko7bxTS+D2VlgLsTlM8hKH+t hb/V9L4cPG3w0rgdPQ9pVlnMu4Nyb5b61ADcgqB8DkH5a8XhbBTaXmLZNi9OGyQ TJV9ulzS60giO06HyxUw30l7tUoNDZgHgdiqHzuoI/LWzPsp7a2v/WVilWeXTeoPtPze6T0qwPtTSTturDdvsmaUyCAC3U3z5593fv8y7mtZHeR9s/ldgkxv80uBvy5eLyTdt5bt6tIb2S6E+VDL4y66XylVZbTJvb5b6IADcS+XNn/d95+rubVof5X2wd925nU/VjTxmIwAA/CUo7/WYjQAA8JegvNdjNgIAwF+C8l6P2QgAAH9JeAAAEBCUAQAgICgDAEBAUAYAgI CgDAAAAUEZAAACgjIAAAReg/LPwEcWt0dv2S9dbrr3f+61/nOK/7BbDPDX0jvtAWf9yYpVGkUpRb6jalC+3d1tLHjb5Xa7fnGj9Z9T/OfdYoC/6u+0Bxz05xOUv1AclIN2X3CDn7fBG+3onKXeqCAAS5aiWNjyGw76tv1JV21v qhqU84+e4XkbvNGOBGWAttWfWeY/FHvDAu9t/4+EFfa+FoLy6NPk6fl3cdRm26A48rTNdKkvDcLr+aukt+XKRiqFqiysMnt73 qWVTMccjZ+vdmk79Vka69+OAHCOyjutMRT/c0h5Ffa+dgXlPOj0GhQ7jtqsLnU046gajR1tBwmrun/Y1anb8yY3bk+JXlpuF98eNmywNEtlolGdAU6z83XkbZbr1UdVb+2AoDxtkHQ ZhYzpyNOhpkttbGfPlutVbQ97qXmXxqz3SlZ75VsMcI497yLvsaleiRT21vp BedRyKbtUws2BI+cT9bLanh3tWdun5s2vHFiiYvGP3c6ZtxjgcHveRd5jU/tPVW5nb1AeSUYrNmiMXNxIOGDYZdpgaUfJahtr+9S8+ZUDSxSuZLvCY7dzwi 0GeJ/2u8hLrKJRJYW9uy8KyvmASZdpcZa2nKx2aW2fmje/cmCJRldGSz1kOweuH+B8jXdR+DoltFoohX2AvUF5MvosUrQzx7RNGIDyVPSp FNVb26fmza8cWKLVxV/5FgOcY/VdtH1tkuiV933r4QQL530xUkxHOyRzrI5cmehTKaq3tk/Nm185sESrj8GVbzHAOZbeRV5cq1YrpsIPUD3vf/5P3vil2bZXI5csDTVKM40Be1caKaq3tunU4S3bP2+jAr0Srfa68i0GOEf9Xe St1bBUNBV+hvi8Hyk2Xm0QLKuwgKWRK5vaXixOOt3RaJura8uHnQ5yyLzTK3 v28vej0UT5sPU2S7MU1/8L8FGjd1H9helVliiWN2/MvSxn32CIcct/V6YNVkeuT503fmmWfxoOFX5Uubi0tuKwL4O8Y97Kle1Kpu1/a8UPF1zfTnGWxvqnpQY4Qf5Oe/ly5MT13kyxvHlj7uW9t9BTAgDATQnKAAAQEJQBACAgKAMAQECKBQCAgKAMAA ABQRkAAAKCMgAABARlAAAICMoAABAQlAEAIFD9ze+r/0fkxv8+2f90GQBeVM7i3nndPuKf5H3lfel46Ko5z1uCcu+Z8CQBwF+V47h3Z O855R/jfeUNO75tH7zR8Lbtuam9vh4jAPgnz231NpWRvzDMva+8v1Gk+bbyPoagDAB XNDoWt0mu3jf59NtO4feVN2zwbeV9jH5Q/vljdD3/qPcMTQcfXXz5h2S6pEFxkGSblVnqgwDwbSqHQuPgcNb8zyHlbYccrqYTlH8G wk/zLn+nKD52SyNU1tCYojHI0iyVQQD4TpUTYfXUcMr8c0h5R8f6AevjXP2gnFw pPh/TXqvz/kbJ+OWj1XUWBxlNWtxppRS+xwA4JMZtGztf/ufA8v5sHLRGTrUclCvXl56h6chL60mWMU2f7a0t7f3AAgLwbd4XlB09v4IyG x8IyqPnZqlX8vDl16fLzqdYHaS3kekgAHyhyqHQPjgcOgeWtxhCuL7zgnIeD ZOR8+7JXKsXK1NURq5ss1iNfJsAfInKQbD/sPjas+bY8o6afW15b+2koJxkwenIlU+nc41GyJddXEbScbuYxvfJaEcAfINj Y9x0kD0j3NHh5V1NUFzZqUE5H+qQoJws4yNBuTdLfWoAnq19NjXaf+FBo7zk OsF0moMrQfnn/1Rm7A0SfrRzndOgPG1wyCwAfIN3xLjf6EDsjXN355f32yr8AP2gvBU2yLvk8 bE372gX0+69KbYX989SGQSAZxsdFn9PhEqb3/QHNF970CgvFf2/6pDf+NFjFD6CxRmTccIZXy6+/EMyXfJYh72m3yGrs9QHAeCpflL1Nr/p4fW1p8zJ5f3CCj/DF902jykAAHVfFBwFZQAA6r4oOArKAADUfVFwFJQBAKgTHAEAICAoAwBAQFA GAICAoAwAAAFBGQAAAoIyAAAEJr/C+uK/evGn8Puln+FNWxv91s3DV7Lncdq2z78E+Fp7Dgvv0pHe+XX9EEVFfOe2seaC tznMT1db5FFOC8rTWRor2fksvbRvhHuAL9E+LB58gO7US0TXD1EUBbctvKMX vM1XW89bvWOzvT9ptIPy8vpWRvuqhwFga08gu+ARfx2Ns3JbTxW+r7XAcanb fKnFvNtpQfkdKzkhKP/6oTLwxX7+q933Tcu7r+TEWQ1LKnxTaz82fmnw75+n32ZJg+0gYa/8o5ehlpb38mnlUR6tatQ9L1plqck2RxeTRYZd9tQnX3axwvW9T5sBfI/pAVHp6xUaKh6ge4bi4nb9m/dtDKpEpZc24UejXqOpw/UfsrxRBfLtLBWtXqXiFNNFJl0qm51OVNlsr6TJjsL1A3yV1Tdh8mbm97igrL z3dUxQTkaYXqmHntW5RstLBgkXs7SwYoNw5dOFHbWG6Zd5s6W7UJkrn6W41P wjgG+w9BqcHhwUD8fpCCagTDwAABFgSURBVGp7XwcE5dUGxTZ5r7BjJVEtrX +6hmKD3qSjXu2yJzPuX1V98J23Kdld/VkCeKQDj1R+Dw3KKnxTZwTlkeKko4ds23FnAqusZ/rEHzjpqNdq2ZON1BdQmah4pypTry61OBTAsxVfg9tm3p+hUVka5coPZS7ruk F5NX5trxSXlzRIKlBfVXvSUa/KCDtLt7SqkXxt+SzTrVVaAnyb4muw+PZmVJBeoZT3joK0lNzFlwbFIDVZwXi Q1YBVSVRL65/arvPASUe9VpddWeT+VSVW7+NS9+mCAb7H0mt55IR13sWoIL1CKe8ddf7iQd5 4NUj1IlrY5pDlNZ7jpTF7+92/7HyE/asqTj39cjpLMmnj3gE8Sfs16P0ZGpUlL1evF9eU/Z2HxsVKAnvpVYxojbkqI4dfrj792+0kYyYjTBe2f4pRg9Gup/Vp3KnijRutNrlB+b0DeLz2a9D7c6R+Yr40WO3FNc3/Zf1fjWbTNksjbzv+vVgfeXWn07XVt7y03/ayVxewc2FJg9Hi6yVNZpyuH+CrLL3hlxp8rcYxV+zFLUx+dJrf3X/Xpw/B0uOVdHlpXPl0tOZwomQ9xe1Mx8xXVa/SdNmjReZrXtpLsSCVBSQjJFurrB/ge6y+4esNvtzSMVfpwl3sunOPvPcf2dRFKnmFNbTdevEAwAV9dVAu/qjyIyv5iIsso+G+KwcALktQDnxqJefPu3WRZay66bIBgCv76qD8Px9Pyb8Xq +R1VlJ0uwUDALcgYQAAQEBQBgCAgKAMAAABQRkAAAKCMgAABARlAAAICMoAA BCY/Gry8P8xfKn/6e8/jVVdcyOhY9f52f9pNACH2/MLAZwIU/t/34IK35SgfLmNbB2+TkEZ4ElG5/VS9zet7QF2lvdXhe8sDsofWcr57rLZY9f5b7S7bB+AxPZlXn+97wl/X2JPef+2V+GbEpRvsFlBGYCRdpLb+VPSL7EzKKvw3XWC8kubl+A1GuFnIxxz +khNR2hMOt3s0tYaDab7Wv1ouqNfQRngEfacbvX2X6tX3peWKnxfhwXlrWmD pUFGbVZXlXQJt7lzVe0GP/99f40WnwybbKpYAQCub3Ss7BmBf/aU919LFb6vhf+Y76XNtsvoSvh8rA4y7VKJgEsxsT1Cb+97GlS2U18/APfys9Ho/qa1PUCvvNMwwC0cFpTDcbKJFwfpNWhMeuwI7Qb51trfcvsrAMDVJEd2vfub1 vYAjfI6bR/jXT+VzPPf9lGbDrInki5N2hgh+c5ZbRC23/adDlvZRWMEAK5mdEbsGYF/GuXdf0e4jpOC8jSfTQdpP5erky6NMGpTbzCaYrr36bz17Uw7AnBNo3f40rvd QTDSK2/lZOcuzgjK4fPRG2R1VY1Jl0aodMkbNAremDcfxLcuwE2NXuBLL3anwEivvD+ pd66X450XlN89yOqAozZLI9Q7FpfdG7DSLPnUty7ATfWS3J7GX+WQ8jbacx2 fCco//6c+yOjLelAuTrp/hGkOXl3qqMF0wcVPfQMD3NT2YBpdnA7yhtXd3iHl/VXhOzv7r168qA8yGmepcWXSpRGmq2o3GO2lPmxSyUYDAK6pflTlI7x/pbe0v7yVBlzWGUH5d/OcbdtUBhmNs9R4OunSCNNVFRtM2yRbzodd2mnSAIDL+tkIG+Td37zGG9tZ3k oDLsttAwCAgKAMAAABQRkAAAKCMgAABARlAAAICMoAABAQlAEAICAoAwBAQF AGAICAoAwAAAFBGQAAAv8Jytf5XfDT36v+cY1VXXMjoUPWub2JN6oAwI30Xr Ne0UXtEinsAwRBeXQ7T7vTt/jWfXBQPmqdo6B8iyIA3EX7Nev9XNGrkto+RhyUw9t52m1+6vN0l30dG5TDi7 eoA8D1bV+qxdesV3HFgeVV8JsSlM9zl329NSgfOD4AyY8kGh150Suv4+9J4j/u1J+MJFu/jFb/vn1p/9KxOGw4VGNt0xEak65WIG/TaDDd1+pHyRT16wAcon7cnLOeh5mWzvH3JMMkN81520i32iBYTdT4qHlX11Y ZoTFpfe+NVbUb/Pz3vo8Wnww72tFom3lfAHqK79h/zepvdX73/SFEke9ob1CeNsivxGtKJ5oOm+SzpbUtzVKftLjr3iy9QVYbVLbz+6diW0kvA Hrq71jv54bV8tavc2ULgWkayCptKk9JfRn1YVcH6TVoTHrsCO0G+dZ639s/Y6tDATBVf9MmZ5xX9MjSQTY6SZX3diZ5aJSfennr78UkPC19WVnPdIr6Bqcz rk7aGGF7vd0gbL/tOx022UX9OgCHWH1dv3R8x5KepFLe6VHLXTwzKE+fzukgxe+B7ZXVSZdGGLW pNxhNMd37dN5KieqlAGCP3mvWy7mofghOj1cubuGvolZudjFvTdYUZbviIn+ jR7M9yOoiG5MujVDpkjdo1L8x73ScyjIAaOu9Zr2ci5T3e5T+Kmo9b03bNIJ aJTuuzrt/kNUBR22WRqh3LC67N2Bj3t4UAOQqx/FRvb7QgeVV25tqBuWwcSM7xmtKx5kOO1rY6trCL0eztCfdP0K+98ZSp3e2sp 2kwXZfAPSEb9Ti+3m11xdSXqp3cRTatvLRKg9KPs502NHCVte2NEJ70qURpq tqNxjtpT7s0o6mfQEoqrxmG2cB/3Ngec9dOMdY+ONO+GnyBNQv5m3yL5M2Lwsb/XMy8p7viuKkSyNMV1VsMG2TbDkfNmm/1BeAuuK5sNqL/1Heb+bOAQBAQFAGAICAoAwAAAFBGQAAAoIyAAAEBGUAAAgIygAAEBCUAQAgI CgDAEBAUAYAgMDyr5hu/CbG1TH/fhn+IuWd69nJL2QG4AG2x5kT7UDK+ww3C8phbj7tyQsfeo8+AHfkOHsr5X2G 5aDcmWNxzKT9Z5+z8EH39ANwO06ut1LexxCUq6ar8i0BwF04tt5KeR/jmL96kf/LhX9Xpg22X27/+WWE0YJHc43WnGz5txCFfUsAcCOOrbdS3sfYG5S3EXmbKYsNwi8bQXk63ahN fdcAcGv/zrXiOcgS5X2MY4JypU0xGf+Og3I4XeNKZc1LnwLAjYQ/LXLSHUV5n+Qt/9eL1WB6YFAeLS8Zs8LzDcBjJOeyw24/5X2SI4Py6I9N5wflkXydvV0DwDM47N5Kee/ogKCcp9LRmB8MyqNmS7sGgIdx2L2V8t7Rkf8xX94mGefwoJysf7SjvGOxwdK 8AHApzrK3Ut47Ou8/5kvafDYoFzsmDTz6ANzI6NhynB1CeZ/k+KC8/eHr6Erly9WgXFnSNLgnG6/sFwCuLDnOPrWkJ1HeJxn+V5lbfxvU2ydtXhqEXyZDhQ0q043azItV2CwAXJ/j7K2U9zH2BuVtl22zf/88elZerhSnGzVIVrXUYMRzD8ADOMveSnmfwZ0DAICAoAwAAAFBGQAAAoIyAA AEBGUAAAgIygAAEBCUAQAgICgDAEBAUAYAgICgDAAAAUEZAAAC/wnK+a8jb/yy8qX2V/h96B+Z/ZyN/wy8dVIAztF7tzsRcqOjs1IutX2GICiPbufqne61/+DD9KnZPxuUffcC3F3v3e5EmEqOzrxWavsYcVAOb+fqbV5q/6/xBx+mj0x92sbD8X33Atzd9jVeT3KrvfgtnNfbSqrtfQnKwRo+Mmlj9l6F9ww CwNUkPwc5vBeVEqntk8R/R7l+j0fZ+ue/5uso5MXpmJVJGwte3cuSysanffc09q0LcF+9d7g3f1u7dGp+U8P/mG+UF1++3Ao/nSwiGjlsU4+zxQbTBU+H3aOy8Xr3RuPDdwTAmUYH2Tt60a6S8t7X3qC81GC4 iMWRK6s9ZMGVYfc4PyiH1hYNwGX03u1OhJ5GiRT27haC498vR3e90ibvFXYs fs83GuQLfvfDPd34qIvXIgC/gxw2fb33en25XnEcuHc3yYWjHFmJa8VnohLgps/ZaoPigqfDTmfZufHeRpKO9esAXF/v3e5EaNhZnHqW4FLuEZRHzeoN2guezps33r/x6Qj7Gy+NA8B1jF7gldNqtdc3O6QyyntHC38ld5opRx17baYfLTU4ZMGNLNu Yqz6+oAzw5QTlcwjKX6v0V3LflDvzNsXYWmxw1ILrzdqDCMoAFAnK5zjkwFX eO2oG5bDxsWF6OtRSg96CK8P2XCcob+8sADdSPLwO6fWdVisTHqzKe1PVuzg Kylthg2TMbHGbFDuaq91guuDpsA1LGz/KaPvvmAuAMxVPwNVe/E/j1HbaPsbCH3cq32ajT+sDJg2mT1vlcWws+PCnvPEtd9Skvm8BHqlyPq724n9 6p7aj9hncOQAACAjKAAAQEJQBACAgKAMAQEBQBgCAgKAMAAABQRkAAAKCMgA ABARlAAAICMoAABAQlAEAICAoAwBAQFAGAICAoAwAAAFBGQAAAoIyAAAEBGU AAAgIygAAEBCUAQAgICgDAEBAUAYAgICgDAAAAUEZAAACgjIAAAQEZQAACAj KAAAQEJQBACAgKAMAQEBQBgCAgKAMAAABQRkAAAKCMgAABARlAAAICMoAABA QlAEAICAoAwBAQFAGAICAoAwAAAFBGQAAAoIyAAAEBGUAAAgIygAAEBCUAQA gICgDAEBAUAYAgICgDAAAAUEZAAACgjIAAAQEZQAACAjKAAAQEJQBACAgKAM AQEBQBgCAgKAMAAABQRkAAAKCMgAABARlAAAICMoAABAQlAEAICAoAwBAQFA GAICAoAwAAAFBGQAAAoIyAAAEBGUAAAgIygAAEBCUAQAgICgDAEBAUAYAgIC gDAAAAUEZAAACgjIAAAQEZQAACAjKAAAQEJQBACAgKAMAQEBQBgCAgKAMAAA BQRkAAAKCMgAABARlAAAICMoAABAQlAEAICAoAwBAQFAGAICAoAwAAAFBGQA AAoIyAAAEBGUAAAgIygAAEBCUAQAgICgDAEBAUAYAgICgDAAAAUEZAAACgjI AAAQEZQAACAjKAAAQEJQBACAgKAMAQEBQBgCAgKAMAAABQRkAAAKCMgAABAR lAAAICMoAABAQlAEAICAoAwBAQFAGAICAoAwAAAFBGQAAAoIyAAAEBGUAAAg IygAAEBCUAQAgICgDAEBAUAYAgICgDAAAAUEZAAACgjIAAAQEZQAACAjKAAA QEJQBACAgKAMAQEBQBgCAgKAMAAABQRkAAAKCMgAABARlAAAICMoAABAQlAE AICAoAwBAQFAGAICAoAwAAAFBGQAAAoIyAAAEBGUAAAgIygAAEBCUAQAgICg DAEBAUAYAgICgDAAAAUEZAAACgjIAAAQEZQAACAjKAAAQEJQBACAgKAMAQEB QBgCAgKAMAAABQRkAAAKCMgAABARlAAAICMoAABAQlAEAICAoAwBAQFAGAIC AoAwAAAFBGQAAAoIyAAAEBGUAAAgIygAAEBCUAQAgICgDAEBAUAYAgICgDAA AAUEZAAACgjIAAAQEZQAACAjKAAAQEJQBACAgKAMAQEBQBgCAgKAMAAABQRk AAAKCMgAABARlAAAICMoAABAQlAEAICAoAwBAQFAGAICAoAwAAAFBGQAAAoI yAAAEBGUAAAgIygAAEBCUAQAgICgDAEBAUAYAgICgDAAAAUEZAAACgjIAAAQ EZQAACAjKAAAQEJQBACAgKAMAQEBQBgCAgKAMAAABQRkAAAKCMgAABARlAAA ICMoAABAQlAEAICAoAwBAQFAGAICAoAwAAAFBGQAAAoIyAAAEBGUAAAgIygA AEBCUAQAgICgDAEBAUAYAgICgDAAAAUEZAAACgjIAAAQEZQAACAjKAAAQEJQ BACAgKAMAQEBQBgCAgKAMAAABQRkAAAKCMgAABARlAAAICMoAABAQlAEAICA oAwBAQFAGAICAoAwAAAFBGQAAAoIyAAAEBGUAAAgIygAAEBCUAQAgICgDAEB AUAYAgICgDAAAAUEZAAAC/w/dwOeDaoto0wAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==

[Kharon]

Looks like the separation standards have been well and truly breached. Have 's and have not.

Truly a disgusting situation, the ATSB guys try to contribute to the well being of the Australian traveler, who well and truly qualifies as a have have not; safety that is.

GMWATF- FDIH. (don't ask).

casa Integrity survey.
(http://www.kwiksurveys.com?s=OCLNNH_eda4d7e5)

[Selcalmeonly]

A few years ago, I think, CASA operated on about $115M. Kharon, will correct me if I am too far off the mark; I'm sure.

It seems to me that income has gone up and service has got significantly worse! ... or am I the only one who has noticed that? The CASA guys I deal with tell me that they all have too much to do.

Does anyone know what is the proportion of operational guys verses the total staff numbers?

[Up-into-the-air]

http://img269.imageshack.us/img26http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/4137/casastaff2011.png

The numbers make interesting reading -

[Selcalmeonly]

So ... Assuming my calculations are correct - its 299 'operational people' out of 786 or about 38%. I appreciate that some back office staff and managers are required but, what does the other 62% do to improve aviation safety?:confused:

[Sarcs]

A quick perusal of the FAA and the NTSB annual budget figures show some surprising differences: 2011 FAA 16.5 billion vs NTSB 100 million.

However the big difference is the NTSB has a larger 'Head of Power' and can quite literally boss the FAA around when it comes to safety deficiencies in the regulations.

Therein lies the problem with the Australian system ie 'The Investigator vs The Regulator'.

[Up-into-the-air]

How much money??

FAA is responsible for airspace as well as the other issues. The mission statement says:

Our Mission

Our continuing mission is to provide the safest, most efficient aerospace system in the world.
Our Vision

We strive to reach the next level of safety, efficiency, environmental responsibility and global leadership. We are accountable to the American public and our stakeholders.
Our Values



Safety is our passion. We work so all air and space travelers arrive safely at their destinations.
Excellence is our promise. We seek results that embody professionalism, transparency and accountability.
Integrity is our touchstone. We perform our duties honestly, with moral soundness, and with the highest level of ethics.
People are our strength. Our success depends on the respect, diversity, collaboration, and commitment of our workforce.
Innovation is our signature. We foster creativity and vision to provide solutions beyond today's boundaries.

So from here???

[Sarcs]

Yeah not a good comparison I know!

FAA is responsible for airspace as well as the other issues.

God forbid if CASA were in charge of the airspace in Oz!:rolleyes:
The world's biggest and busiest airspace system, but surprisingly their system works. Ours...well..ours is sorely encumbered by an inept authority and probably would be regarded as third world if we had any where near the traffic of the US!:ugh:

Sheesh..its embarassing really:(