Learning to fly in Scotland

[Richard PPL]

Hi All,

I have just joined this forum as I plan to learn to fly during 2012.

Being a newbie I will no doubt have loads of silly questions that I'll ask during this journey.

I'm looking at going for the PPL and as I live in central Scotland I have been looking at three options. Glasgow, Edinburgh, & Cumbernauld. Anyone on here have any experience of any of these? That could give some recommendations.

Also how long does it take "the average" person to achive there PPL? I know the requirements are 45 hours, but how long does it take.

I work abroard so therefore I'm home for 2-3 months blocks at a time, is it possible to squeeze it in during a leave period or two??

Finally the medical requirements? Can anyone point me in the right direction for what the actual requirements are? I'm currently overweight!!! (not just because of the Christmas dinner!) and working on getting it down.

Anyway thanks for reading this and looking forward to commencing this!

Cheers
Richard

[Dan the weegie]

There are no "bad" schools that I'm aware of in Scotland so you'll be fine wherever you choose to fly, Edinburgh and Glasgow are more expensive and they will also have some limitations in training due to being at the busy airports. Cumbernauld is likely more expensive than Fife (Glenrothes) or Perth but you should take in to account the travel costs of getting there :). Personally having lived in Glasgow and Edinburgh and learned to fly in Glenrothes, I would go to Cumbernauld it's closer :) and will be a fair bit cheaper than Glasgow/Edin

As for how long, it will take you between 45 hrs to 55 hrs I reckon for a chap of your years. You can expect it to take longer than that if you do a few lessons and then take a long break, how much longer will depend on how long a break you have between flights. As for time, well as you say that depends on you, the fastest I've known was 3 weeks, the longest was several years without a lengthy break. You also need to do the exams, they do an intensive groundschool in Inverness that I know is excellent and you can do your PPL up there as well, they are also very good indeed :) so worth considering if you fancy doing it intensive. I know a few guys in your work situation that have done it this way with significant success.

Weight wise, it's hard to say without knowing your situation, if from a BMI point of view you're overweight then you'll likely be fine, if you're obese then that may be an issue. The limitations of the PPL medical are on the CAA website if I remember rightly but you should contact an Aviation Medical Examiner, they'll talk you through it and will arrange a Class 2 medical to find out more.

[riverrock83]

Richard
Welcome to PPRuNe. I think all of your questions have been asked before so do a search and you should be able to find the answers... hence why no one has yet replied to you.
eg
http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/471520-flying-schools-near-edinburgh-scotland.html

There are many great training locations around the central belt. It is competitive enough that most of the bad eggs don't stay around too long but to keep safe, don't pay up front (or if you do - use a credit card and don't spend money you can't afford to lose). I'm at Prestwick Flying Club which has a very different atmosphere to some of the more professional schools but it depends what you are looking for. I believe I'm learning a lot more about good airmanship from the commercial and ex-military pilots and instructors who frequent there than I would at a traditional commercial training school. I've also learnt about care of the aircraft and individual aircraft foibles which you would expect to be hidden from you at a commercial school.
Remember to factor in your travel time. To do a 45 minute sortie from Prestwick takes me at least 3 hours from my home in Glasgow once you include travel, getting the plane ready, taxiing, putting the plane away... Also at this time of the year, time is light limited (as you can only fly in day light during ab inito training).

I'd recommend that you find a school which matches what sort of pilot you are looking to become. Have a look around a number of establishments, have trial lessons at a few, then take your pick where you feel most comfortable, then search on here and ask about specific schools once you have done your research. Every school has its good and its bad points - nowhere is ever perfect (despite how hard people try!).

It is possible to do intensive courses to get your PPL quickly, but you will need to discuss this with individual schools. Like anywhere in the UK, training is weather limited. Some locations are more limited than others.
For example, Prestwick (where I am) is pretty much never foggy and normally has a fairly high cloud base so there is often an exercise of some sort that can be done - but I had lessons booked for nav exercises at various times over the Christmas break and I haven't got up at all. Flexibility is normally the best policy, so you may struggle if you aren't fairly flexible. Also, many people are brain dead after 2 intensive hour long sessions - there is no point wasting your money in the air if you aren't learning! In saying that - you are better to learn where you are going to do most of your flying, so missing out on a few lessons is a good lesson in itself about what you can and can't do with your licence once you have it.

The more intensive the course, and statistically, the younger you are, the quicker you will complete the training. 45 hours is a minimum, and possible, but very rare. If you have a long break between lessons you will back track and so will need to spend extra time re-learning. Many who plan to fly as a hobby are around retirement age and out of the pattern of learning new things and doing exams so it takes considerably longer to complete the course. You will move through the course on merit - not on number of hours - so its up to you to prepare to make the most out of the time. I haven't heard of an official average, but I'd say its around 55 hours.

Medical wise - it depends on which licence you go for. For an NPPL (I'll ignore the new EASA versions but they are expected to be equivalent) you need to get what an HGV driver would get from a GP (see http://www.dft.gov.uk/dvla/medical/~/media/pdf/medical/at_a_glance.ashx. For a PPL a Class 2 medical Initial JAR Class 2 (Private Pilot) Medical Examination | Medical | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=49&pagetype=90&pageid=528) or a CPL (for doing work as a pilot) a class 1 medical which is more stringent and involves a trip to Gatwick. If you are concerned, it might be worth doing the medical first to see whether it is a problem. I can recommend you a very friendly and relaxed GP in Cumbernauld who wasn't charging silly money who can do them (and he has a PPL and flys from Cumbernauld himself). He was even able to do it just after surgery hours for me so I could do it after work. Private message me if you want details (or search on the CAA website).

Weight isn't a problem for me so I can't comment on a maximum BMI that is acceptable. If you are as over weight (or just very large) as you suggest then it could effect what aircraft is suitable for training or which instructor you use as in many two seat planes, two large people plus full fuel isn't possible. You don't need me to say how much better you will feel anyway if you are able to keep your BMI sensible!

Lastly - if you are looking for a more student friendly forum - try the "Student Pilot" section of FLYER Forums • Index page (http://forums.flyer.co.uk/). In saying that, I have learnt alot by lurking here over the past few months, but you do need to be careful to separate out best practice from personal short cuts (and once you start your training - your instructor is always right...).

Good luck - and it is something definitely worth doing!

[Lagentium]

Inhave no knowledge of training north of the border so I won't pretend like I know anything! All I'd say is, to get started studying now, rather than later, even if you just begin with Air Law as well as your Class 2 medical as this will hinder you as you progress and you don't want to be spending more time doing circuits or early nav trips, then move onto Comms and Navigation, but if people have a different opinion I'd be willing to listen to their points of view!

Cheers, Jim

[Richard PPL]

Thanks Guys.
Sorry I didnt use the search function - First newbie mistake right there! :oh:

Medical wise - I hold an ENG1 merchant navy medical, but I know that my weight has been creeping up all career and need to do something sharpish! Everything else is ok, BP etc etc just the BMI is high!!! Plus I know how much better I will feel losing a few stone! This WILL give me the incentive that I need.

I would fancy an intensive course as it fits in with my leave pattern. I just finished my Master Mariners exams during the summer, so learning is still in my mindset so to speak. I do struggle with written exams, I seem to need to put in loads of study time to pass exams, but I certainly have the ambition to get through it.

I do fancy trying to go as far as I can with the flying if I have an aptitude for it, but to start with I would like to do it for fun. You never know it could turn in to a change of career in the future. Would I be right in saying that you need to do a PPL before a CPL? I take it all pilots have to start the same way?

Right now I'm due back at work in January, so maybe set the goals on the weight and reaching the medical standards and then start some flying next leave to try it out.

I will google all the different options, I hadnt thought of Inverness (due to distance) but if it was an intensive course I could justify it I guess. Will google Prestwick now!

Once again thanks Dan, River & Lagentium

regards Richardhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[abgd]

I'm doing my training in Inverness, and enjoying the flying a lot. I have to go back to finish a few hours, but the weather was fairly good and I think that during the month I was there we only missed one whole day and a few mornings due to fog. Landing fees are included, so it works out relatively cheap too. If you're considering an intensive course, it may well pay to look further afield - if it costs 40-50p/mile then a b&b at £20 a night works out cheaper fairly quickly.

If I were you I'd join AirQuiz - Online Practice Examinations for Pilots! (http://www.airquiz.com) or similar and buy a course of training manuals before starting. Even though I'm reasonably bright, I found that there was quite a lot of material to get through, and I don't think I could have done an intensive course without having gotten most of the theory out of the way first. Also, get your medical done before starting anything - particularly if you are worried about your weight.

BMI is (weight in kg)) / (height in metres squared) so you can work out your number. If it's under 30 (and possibly rather more) you shouldn't have any trouble. At your age, you would have to be unlucky for your weight to be causing any medical issues that would stop you from flying (e.g. heart disease) but obviously keeping trim will be good for your long term health and I wish you luck with your fitness programme.

Have fun.

[GeeWhizz]

A sensitive subject, but any weight issues shouldn't be much of a problem for a PPL Class 2 medical. Also learning in a 4 seater C172/PA28 rather than the C150/PA38 will resolve the aircraft weight limitation. The only thing with the larger aircraft is to budget a little more. This isn't much more expensive, but it is a little.

As for the theory exams, they aren't difficult. Read the relevant book and take the exam. I recommend the Air Pilot's Manuals - the ones the exam answer sheets are referenced to! If you fail an exam, learn from it and do it again.

Completing a PPL in 45 hours is easily possible if you know the theory before the you fly the lesson. They say 50 - 60 hours is 'normal', whatever that is. Just don't expect to do it in 45 :cool:

By the way I envy anyone who will learn to fly in Scotland; much more beautiful scenery than most here will have endured ;)

Good luck!

GW

[thing]

Wouldn't worry about the weight issue, I'm 55 and have large bones too, did my PPL (and medical obviously) this year with no probs although where I learned the training is all 4 seaters anyway. The only drawback to being impressively built is that some a/c can get a bit close to the limit balance wise with two up in the front and full fuel, usually PA28's.

The best advice I've had is always to break your biscuits in two before you eat them as all the calories fall out.

[riverrock83]

Technically you can go straight to CPL but really only the integrated courses that are designed to lead you directly into commercial aviation do that. For a summary of the licences, try wikipedia:
Pilot licensing in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilot_licensing_in_the_United_Kingdom). The full official details are in the LASORS: http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/srg_lts_LASORS%202010%20Bookmarked.pdf

If you are thinking of going commercial in the future, it might be worth getting a class 1 medical early to confirm there are no other complications. I don't know about the ENG1 medical - but I went through an able seaman's medical for working on passenger ferries and the class 2 flying medical was much more detailed (so the class 1 must be extremely detailed!).

Agree with doing the theory early, although some of it wont click into place once you have actually gone flying. I'd learn the material though before testing yourself. There are a number of series available to buy (and cheaper second hand via amazon / ebay). Cheaper to buy all the bit separately though rather than one of the all singing, all dancing sets for those people starting as you wont use half the stuff in the sets.

[Lagentium]

I see what you're saying mate because if the theory isn't in context it might not aswell be written at all! Thing you are my hero because that is my wife's take on calories!! Richard my old books are gathering dust so if you want them sending by post let me know, they might as well be giving you a headache as they gave me! :ok:

Cheers, Jim

[pilot2bornot2b...]

Can't help with where to train but as far as weight is concerned I am 20.5 stone and currently training, I am also over 40. Does mean I am limited to training in the more expensive C172 but I prefer that anyway as opposed to the 152.

I did the class 2 medical straight away as I thought it might be a problem and passed. The AME did comment tho that if I had been a smoker and/or drinker that may have tipped the balance. As you say, it is a good incentive to lose a few stone.

[thing]

Thin types are only jealous of the amount of kinetic energy we posess in a dive anyway.

[GeeWhizz]

(Off topic: most 152s are out of mass and balance limits with two whipper-snappers on board, let alone two or even one averagely weighted chap - making them unsuitable for a skills test with regards to CAA Standard Doc 19(A).)

Train in something you can be tested in.

Thin types are only jealous of the amount of kinetic energy we posess in a dive anyway.

That's potential energy + kinetic energy. I feed my friends!;)

[Richard PPL]

Cheers Everyone!

A really friendly welcome to the forum!

I know weight is a sensitive subject, but I'm confident this is the kick I need to get back into shape! I did it once before when I got married so I have the will power. Will definately need to break the biscuits in two, let them calories out - Top advice ;)

I have been checking online for course materials, are yours recent Jim? Or are they not the kind of books that go out of date so to speak? If I could get some before I'm due back I could get some study in when I'm away.

Can you take some of the theory exams before flying? Just thinking ahead to get some of the hard stuff out the way early.

I love learning new things, and I have always wanted to fly, but my career took a different path when I was offered my training with my current employer when I was 17 and havent looked back, jobs were thin on the ground when I left school so getting sponsored training and a pretty decent future career was to good to turn down.

On the medical standards the Eng 1 is pretty tough and intensive, it gets more difficult to pass each year. Though each year the Dr still tells me to loose weight or face restrictions.

Also I dont expect to do it in 45 hours - I took tons of lessons before I could drive!! (dont know if thats a bad sign:oh:)

I'm really looking forward to 2012, and to hopefully meeting up with a few of you during my training!

Thanks Again
Richard

PS Jim I dont know if I can send PMs yet but would be interested in your books if they are what I need.

[thing]

152's aren't that bad, just looking at the weight and balance graph for our club 152 with full fuel you can take 447lb of people and baggage.

Richard you can take the theory exams whenever you want although I would probably do the nav one after you have a little cross country under your belt as it will make a lot more sense.

[GeeWhizz]

Good advice 'thing' on the nav exam. But all of the exams can be taken before you fly if you want to. They'll probably be more difficult, but they are possible unless you know the theory. And again the exams aren't difficult.

On the medical side of things, an ENG1 merchant navy thingy is like a grade 4 or 5 RAF medical thingy... they count for diddly squat. You probably have a good idea about your medical fitness, and that is what the AME will approve to make it CAA official. If it is a worry do it straight away.

The 'average' PPL students solo at about 10 - 15 hours. A medical is needed for this (some schools require an Air Law exam pass too;)). If you think you will pass the medical then start training, if not don't and do the medical first. But it really isn't that strict. But but but at £100+ per hour be wise.

As a guide for exam reading, I'd start with Air Law - APM book 2 (as above) & Met fact sheets (available from met office website), as well as Meteorology - APM 2 also. To make the grade as quickly as possible, all I'll suggests is that you visit as many places/read as much as possible, and understand it.
If you can courteously drive a car you can fly an aeroplane...

The only thing to remember is that you need air flowing over the wings whatever the situation ;)

[thing]

The only thing to remember is that you need air flowing over the wings whatever the situation

And that is about the most important thing you will ever read or learn about flying.

[MarkR1981]

Hi Richard. Firstly I currently work within the Merchant Navy so can relate to your position.

You should have absolutely no problem fitting an intensive course within your assigned 2-3 month period, If you really push and have the ability it is certainly possible to complete a PPL in a 4-6 week period weather permitting of course.


To do this successfully would require you to be focussed and do some theory on a nightly basis. Alternatively you might find it much easiser to spread it over your 2-3 months depending on your circumstances.

With regard to training establishments, the advice generally is always to visit a few and see where you feel you would fit in best. I can wholeheartedly recommend the quality instruction at inverness having done my own PPL there(damn that's my anonymity blown:ugh:). Inveness also benefits from being commercial but also quiet and is perfectly placed for some excellent cross country routes.

In terms of aircraft you would have the choice between training in the PA38 Tomahawk (most common) or the PA28 Warrior. The Warrior is a four seat aircraft and is a little more expensive per hour.

I personally would opt for the Tomahawk as a trainer as it is a little more challenging and responsive, although the Warrior is more spacious and has a greater maximum take-off weight than the Tomahawk should you feel this is an issue for you.

check out www.highlandaviation.com (http://www.highlandaviation.com)

[NorthSouth]

152's aren't that bad, just looking at the weight and balance graph for our club 152 with full fuel you can take 447lb of people and baggageI'd be very interested to see how you achieve that. In my experience there is no 152 which can take two fairly normal sized adults and full fuel. Same goes for the Tomahawk. Richard, if you're above average weight I'd echo the advice of others to go for training on a four-seater (PA28/C172).

Check your PMs for some other suggestions.

NS

[thing]

From the POH for our 152.

'Aircraft basic weight 1080.3 lb. Max take off weight 1670lb.'

90 litres, full tanks, at 1.6 lb per litre is 144 lb, therefore leaving 445.7lb for passengers and baggage. (OK I was 1.3 lb out on the original post)

[abgd]

Just another thought on the medical - what they're really interested in is that you have good vision and hearing, and that you're not going to become incapacitated whilst you're flying the family around, for example due to a diabetic hypo, epilepsy or any other cause. As far as I could work out, they weren't interested in your general health and the tests (e.g. blood tests) weren't chosen to provide information on your general health.

I was initially somewhat surprised to meet a few fighter pilots and airline pilots who were carrying rather more weight than they should. So don't let it put you off.

[NorthSouth]

thing:From the POH for our 152Ah, that would explain it. You've used the POH figure for the empty weight. I can guarantee you that the actual empty weight figure on your particular aircraft's weight schedule will be in excess of 1080 lbs. Most 152s are at least 1170-1180 lbs empty weight. So that will knock around 100lbs off your usable load. You'd then be struggling with two adults each over 78kgs - a moderate weight for middle-aged males these days.

NS

[bad bear]

If its learning to fly your are interested in, it might be worth looking at the microlight, paragliding side of life both of which are well provided for in south/central Scotland.
Another option might be to try gliding. The main clubs in the area are; Edensoaring which is open 7 days per week near Penrith, Portmoak near loch leven or Deeside club at Aboyne. Converting from gliding to power can be a cheaper route than the obvious flying club route.

bb

[cats_five]

If its learning to fly your are interested in, it might be worth looking at the microlight, paragliding side of life both of which are well provided for in south/central Scotland.
Another option might be to try gliding. The main clubs in the area are; Edensoaring which is open 7 days per week near Penrith, Portmoak near loch leven or Deeside club at Aboyne. Converting from gliding to power can be a cheaper route than the obvious flying club route.

bb

Portmoak is 7 days a week, all year round, weather permitting. I think Edensoaring stopped when the clocks changed and will reopen when they change again next March.

If the OP is in central Scotland then Aboyne is a long trek.

[Oldpilot55]

Microlights at Strathaven and Balado will probably be open 7 days a week.