Burnout in the pilot profession

[Cruise Zombie]

Notwithstanding ' simple ' fatigue issues, how many of us are suffering from burnout in our careers ?

Novelty worn-off years ago, worries about things going wrong and being too knackered to cope, airlines wiping away all the old protections fought for over many years of sensible negotiating, just sick and tired of sim checks and shift work, fed up with reading endless checklists, and missing family events ?

Piloting today feels more like being a bus driver on the same route in some vast urban sprawl for a never ending eternity.

Be honest, how many of us on pprune are just using the site for pointless grumbling to distract us from the fact that we don't actually like the job that we, expensively, chose ?

[A and C]

I still enjoy the flying but the three airlines going bankrupt in the last four years has left me l we say a little jaded.

I think the biggest problem that those of us who have been flying for years have in getting other jobs is the utterly stupid and pointless psychometric tests that are a feature of airline recruitment.

Some of these tests may be all fine and good for the generation of computer gamers new to flying but to be faced with flight director test with bars that work backwards is somewhat counter intuitive after thirty years of flying.

Interviews and technical questions I can understand but to have thirty years of safe flying rejected as part of the recruitment picture in favour of a computer game is just insulting.

[stilton]

I'll help you get over your burnout you poor things


Try losing your medical after just reaching the top of your career in the LHS after 19 years in the right.


Then spend years fruitlessly trying to find a doctor who can fix the problem while simultaneously going through the divorce from hell, the stress from which
causing you a heart problem which may preclude you from ever returning to the cockpit.


Boredom and fatigue, must be awful,



Grow up

[newt]

Best thing I ever did was to retire from flying aged 56!!:ok:

[3 Holer]

Yep, did the same at 58. Saw the best years and was very thankful it lasted as long as it did.

Good luck to those still enjoying !

[Slasher]

Flying a good aeroplane + working for a good mob + getting
excellent pay + great roster + having a fantastic lifestyle =
no burnout and look forward to going to work.

Not what I got nor anybody else I know. Does anyone have all
those five elements in that equation?

[DC10RealMan]

I dont think that Cruise Zombies observations about general working conditions are applicable just to the pilot community but applicable to any individual working today.

I just thank God that I am not one of them.

[Dream Land]

Not what I got nor anybody else I know. Does anyone have all
those five elements in that equation? Ya right! :ugh:

[Notso Fantastic]

I can understand the sentiments. The job has gone to computerised roster systems designed to extract the maximum legally possible from you at peak times. I was dreading summers with twelve+ hour duties, minimum rest, 6 days in a row, a life continually spent in yet another hotel. Those of us who have been doing the job a long time have seen it descend from a fun, enjoyable profession to a grind of hard simulator checks (they're not tests, or training anymore, they are examinations to keep your job), increasingly invasive medicals and ground tests, and a time consuming grind. NormaL people work 8 hours a day/5 days a week. Whilst we are decidedly NOT 9-5 people, our supposedly 'well paid' job achieved barely 8 days a month only at home, and for some, vastly less! 70 duty hour working weeks not unusual- there is no EC working time directive protecting transport and hospital employees.

Yes- the fun and enthusiasm has gone out of it. I've now experienced the second-too-last airline failure to hit the UK. Whilst the loss of income is unfortunate, I have other means to fall back on, but a major beneficiary is the reduction of job stress which undoubtedly has risen to unacceptable levels.

[gtseraf]

Sadly, I have to agree.

The industry has changed dramatically since I entered 23 years ago.

The beancounters have a lot to answer for.

Most of my colleagues are jaded by the experience, yet I'm sure we'll miss it like hell when we leave.

Got to find a way to satisfy the cravings without being reliant on a demanding dealer.

[beardy]

Got to find a way to satisfy the cravings without being reliant on a demanding dealer.

Most of us who chose to enter the profession did so because, amongst other reasons, we are inherent thrill seekers. The employer, the authority and most importantly the customer want flights to be 'boring' no thrills and definitely no excitement. Thrills seekers don't find boring satisfying, the consequent inherent tension can express itself in all sorts of ways, 'burn out' may be one.

[Wellington Bomber]

The beancounters cant be very good, if airlines keep going pop

Obviously that business plan is flawed

[Gretchenfrage]

Got to find a way to satisfy the cravings without being reliant on a demanding dealer

The industry has gone from dealers to pushers ... (listen to the song by Steppenwolf). The only difference is that their actions are still deemed legal!

[16024]

Does anyone have all
those five elements in that equation?
Ticking number 1, possibly 4. Number 5 is up to yourself, really.
And:
The beancounters cant be very good, if airlines keep going pop

I always thought. "Let me be good at what I do and let them be good at what they do".
Ticking number 1...
But which of us will get bonuses at the end?

[Jurassic Jet]

I retired 4 month ago, just before my 59th birthday.

Retirement is the best thing to happen to me since I got hired by my airline. And of course when the company went Chapter 11 about 3 months later, my choice seemed brilliant.

Over 20 years a Captain with great crews, friends and never so much as a ding anywhere, I feel honored to have been involved with the industry, relieved to be out and sad for my friends caught where they are.

The "good old days" weren't and never will be. The job is a series of obstacles put up by management, government and the tyranny of bureaucracy at every level. Not to mention the "right(s)"of the passengers to cheap vacations on my paycheck.

That said, I enjoyed it and remember fondly the time I was there, and to be truthful, there were some "good old days" although they didn't always involve the job.

Best of luck to all of you still there. Fly safe and enjoy. You'll know when the time is right to leave.

[Sleeve Wing]

I've had fifty years in the business including 25 years in the airlines, 22 as a captain.

All I remember, apart from great crews, is the relentless, thoughtless demands of the company. There was no regard for a family life, proper rest patterns, total ingratitude when a job was still successfully completed against the odds and then a regular fight to get a decent salary for the job I loved.
Worst of all was the coercion when we had the audacity to suggest that the limit was being exceeded. We were always short of sufficient crewing requirement, you see.

Like many of us, I had wanted to fly since my Dad first made me a model aeroplane at the age of about seven. The local airfield was a magnet as soon as I could ride a bike.
I was totally focussed and again, like some, I got there.

Best thing I ever did was to retire at 60 and start doing aeros again !
Reminded me of why I had put myself through the pressure of military boards, numbers of subsequent civilian interviews and the airline treadmill.

The best bits ? The military camaraderie, instructing, aeros and now STILL working for myself doing the flying I want to do. I think I may finally even be getting quite good at it !

....But now I'm afraid I actually pity the guys in the glass-cockpit, FBW environment.

Sad, isn't it ?

[captjns]

I made the move some 21 years ago when my carrier in the US went into financial problems and asked for voluntary leave. Having a business that paid the my bills allowed me to take that voluntary leave.

Six months after that began a new adventure in m career as an expat. During the past 21 years as an expat, I've been very lucky and have enjoyed every carrier that I had flown with. I have and continue to experience life abroad I would have never had I returned to the white bread US carrier.

When my contract was up, I either upped for another tour of duty or moved on to a new adventure. IMHO New adventures reduce the chances of the old burn out syndrome. Yeah, there are hoops to jump though but in the long run the experience outweighs the inconveniences that some countries put expats through.

I do see many unhappy crew dogs roaming terminals round the world, especially when I return to the US, with that burnout expression look on their faces. I understand why... trying to jump seat home to be with their families for 2 or 3 days, and back out on the road. That worried look on their faces wondering if they are going to have heated discussions with their spouses because they are never home and living the life of Riley.

I have another four years to go and will be ready to hang up the goggles. Ever since I entered the industry my plan has been to call it quits at age 60, even though the retirement age has been raised to 65. Our plan is to travel around the US in a motor home with a little Honda in tow. I've crisscrossed the US many times in the Flight Levels but never really saw the US. Well now's our chance. There is one thing I don't want to do unless out of absolute necessity, is to travel anyplace by airline.

As for retirement and medical... well, I budgeted for both since the 1970's. Knock wood, my retirement accounts were not affected by the market debacles after 9/11 nor 2008.

[TDK mk2]

Flying a good plane? Regional Jet - I like it but my many of my colleagues (who didn't fly turboprops) don't

Working for a good mob? Well they ain't Ryanair

Getting excellent pay? Can't imagine what else I could make £64k doing

Great roster? Earlies/Lates, 2 sector/4 sectors - can't imagine how short haul flying is ever going to be much different. More than slightly concerned about what could be in store for us if the EASA FTLs go through as they are proposed

Having a fantastic lifestyle? As long as I can walk my kids to the bus stop/nursery or have my tea with them I haven't got too much to complain about. I used to do 10 nightstops per month

But that's today, who know's what tomorrow will bring...

[Dan Winterland]

For me, the fun went out of flying when I left the military.

And now, the fatigue, the constant pressure of management decisions, the perpetual adjustment of rosters,the constant re-writng and inventing of SOPS and manuals and attacks on our terms and conditions, especially in the area of FTLs have made the job a chore which quite frankly I would not be upset if I had to stop tomorrow. (Apart from the cash that is!)

Not burnout, just fatigue and tedium.



My advice, go and get a hobby removed from flying and leave the job behind you when you leave the airport. Sailing works for me.

[Joker11]

I think generally anyone who works in aviation is at risk for burnout. Flying personal and ground staff alike. Shifts. Long hours. Brutal conditions.

[Greenlights]

topic from 2011.
you have a good sense of timing LOL
Burnout is possible, in many jobs as well. But it depends how you see the jobs. As long as you don't care, just do your job, no more no less, go home and leave it behind you, burnout will not happen.

[BSD]

I can't take issue with any of the previous posts, they all seem to have valid points made on both sides of the debate.

I've gone on longer than I'd expected to and now have a little over a year to go.

Whilst like any job, frustrations from time to time can overwhelm one, in essence I can say "I enjoy the job, I shall miss it when it's gone"

Have I avoided burn-out? I'd like to think so, but my colleagues might be a better judge.

If I could put my finger on three things which have made this job one I still relish, they would be:

1. I've worked for a good company for a long time. I've only suffered one bankruptcy in my career and was out of work for only 5 weeks. The company is good partly because we have a strong union peopled by keen, intelligent, fair-minded pilots. They've kept the managements excesses at bay.

2. Variety. Short-haul, long-haul, a mix of both, detachments, secondments, base changes, type changes, etc. They re-vitalise you.

3. I was lucky enough to marry the right woman who has coped with all the ups and downs, "the reversals of fortune" the frustrations from time to time, the rosters that didn't work for us and been beholden to the tyranny of a roster over which we've had little control. That stable family base is critically important I'd suggest.

My AME has made a study of burn-out and both lectures and writes on the subject, but for me the three points I've made above have been key. Oh, and when I found the delete button on my computer and learned to get rid of anything that came from the PR dept, the blogs, Vlogs, general propaganda, weekly updates and the like, focused solely on being a professional, flying safely, efficiently and comfortably, my blood pressure dropped, my stress levels dropped and the roses smelled a good deal more lovely!

[flash8]

Managed through contacts (and much luck) after paying for my own type-rating (I know.. I know..) to get a years contract work, this turned into a second year and I had no problem believing what I'd been told that it would go on indefinitely. It was well paid, through a US agency where because I self-employed contract non-resident Brit in SE Asia paid zero tax... single in 30's, I was rolling in cash, also great girlfriend, nice apartment , you get the picture.

However was working with some OK guys, but a lot of politics, a lot of **** and actually pretty miserable existence., I dreaded days sometimes and hated earlies (really screwed me up).. so rather than quit (which was what I should have done if I were rational) I took "sick" leave and then went AWOL... the long and short of it was this was 2006... and the company wouldn't give me a reference until early 2008 when I repaid some dispute items (I refused before mostly because they were wrong)...

Believe me you CAN suffer burn-out after just a few years..... or at least have some sort of break-down... it doesn't take decades.... and can happen to anyone.

Never went back to flying, my old profession in Software was in huge demand, the money was the same or better, and I kind of drifted away, too old now to go back after such a gap, but no regrets.

Oh yes, both the CP and some of my colleagues have also left flying and now work doing various other stuff... well actually CP was jailed :( :( so his career came to an abrupt end!

[rigpiggy]

I have been described as a "prickly sort". I dont have an anger management problem. i get p!ssed, get angry, tell you exactly what i think, and then my anger goes away. Still pulling 120/80 every medical

[Nomad2]

Good thread.
My advice: go to contracting.
You'll make more money, so you'll be able to afford to leave, if you want to.
You have some control, which is quite positive, because you won't be tied in by seniority.
Working in other countries can be jolly interesting.

My only regret is not starting earlier.

[Flying Mechanic]

I was right seat in a A330 in 2009, thought there was no way I could do this for th next 30 years. So I went corporate, and never looked back. Never done greater than 400 hours a year, the lowest was 100 ! Been all over the world , and it’s been a blast . Plenty of time off between trips to catch up on rest.

[beamer]

For me, the fun went out of flying when I left the military.

And now, the fatigue, the constant pressure of management decisions, the perpetual adjustment of rosters,the constant re-writng and inventing of SOPS and manuals and attacks on our terms and conditions, especially in the area of FTLs have made the job a chore which quite frankly I would not be upset if I had to stop tomorrow. (Apart from the cash that is!)

Not burnout, just fatigue and tedium.



My advice, go and get a hobby removed from flying and leave the job behind you when you leave the airport. Sailing works for me.

I sympathise Dan as I felt much the same way. I stuck with the arline business for twenty plus years after military but bailed out early. Don't get me wrong, I flew with some great people either side of the flight deck door but the sheer tedium of sitting on autopilot for hour after hour at all times of the day and night did not do a lot for me. The only challenges were the difficult airports and the days when things went awry for whatever reason. I also found the relentless changing of SOP's and reinventing the wheel an absolute pain. I still do a little flying but like you have found other hobbies to keep me occupied !

[John Citizen]

Stilton

I'll help you get over your burnout you poor things


I am not surprised you had a nasty stressful divorce from hell with heart problems if this is the way to speak to other people. You must be such a lovely person to fly with.

I am not surprised you don't know how real the fatigue is when you you didn't fly for several years anyway.

You grow up.

No doubt most pilots suffer from fatigue. Do you really think you are some type of super human that doesn't suffer from fatigue? Well done hero.

No you can't be superhuman as you had other several health issues. I wonder how well you have taken care of your health and diet in the past ?

life sux hey?

[flash8]

Stilton

I think you are being a little unfair here. Not all folk are cut from the same block, have known some under immense pressure that just buckle down with it, others crack, same whether on the line or any other profession. You may well have had it not so good (and my genuine sympathy) but that if anything should be making you more empathic!

A little sympathy for your colleagues would not go amiss!

Flash

[ShyTorque]

Hopefully Stilton will have got over his problems.....he posted over eight years ago.

[Dan Winterland]

Eight years ago I wrote Not burnout, just fatigue and tedium. I would say now that in my late 50s, I may have been getting too much of that tedium and fatigue - to the point you could say I'm close to burnout. Since then, we've been working harder and the FTLs are being increasingly ignored. I used to sit on the company Fatigue Management Committee and used to hear comments such as "Sure you're working hard, but it's within the limits". I liked to point out that limits are not targets. The engines can be used at full power for five minutes on every take-off as that's in the limits too. But if the pilots started doing that, they would end up with plenty of time off while the aircraft are grounded during frequent engine changes.

Most pilot manning projections are based on all pilots working to 65. This isn't happening - most retiring from my airline are stopping well before 65 and I suspect it's the same with other airlines. I will not be flying an airliner past 60. I was were to, I would probably be dead before 65 anyhow.

[Stan Woolley]

Eight years ago I wrote I would say now that in my late 50s, I may have been getting too much of that tedium and fatigue - to the point you could say I'm close to burnout. Since then, we've been working harder and the FTLs are being increasingly ignored. I used to sit on the company Fatigue Management Committee and used to hear comments such as "Sure you're working hard, but it's within the limits". I liked to point out that limits are not targets. The engines can be used at full power for five minutes on every take-off as that's in the limits too. But if the pilots started doing that, they would end up with plenty of time off while the aircraft are grounded during frequent engine changes.

Most pilot manning projections are based on all pilots working to 65. This isn't happening - most retiring from my airline are stopping well before 65 and I suspect it's the same with other airlines. I will not be flying an airliner past 60. I was were to, I would probably be dead before 65 anyhow.

I sympathise.

All I would say, is that for me, looking back, the warnings were obvious. My blood pressure started being consistently higher than it ought, taking it at home it would be for example 133/89.This was complicated by the fact that I’ve always had ‘white coat syndrome’, and frequently the Dr would have to take a reading more than once at Medical’s. I felt like there was no way out, very limited options and suffered colds, sore throats and other niggly things.

Things improved when I once again changed jobs. I played the bass guitar and I thought that would be helping any stress that I still felt. My blood pressure was still an issue, but not enough to talk about going on medication. Ironically, I remember telling my aviation Dr at my final medical, that I would prefer to lose my medical than die! Nothing came from that discussion, which I now see as yet another cry for help. I ought to have been more forceful, but denial has its comforts. I started line training with my new company, and after a couple of years moved onto sim training and checking, which I really enjoyed.

So, it came as a total surprise to me when four years on I suffered a life changing stroke on the 19th of April 2011.

Looking back, it shouldn’t have been that surprising. Also, I would now say that my stroke was a blessing. Some might find that hard to compute. It was a rude awakening, but an awakening nevertheless.

If you recognise anything I’ve talked about. Speak to a Doctor. :ok:

[flash8]

If you recognise anything I’ve talked about. Speak to a Doctor. :ok:

I can only agree, Stan, in my case, issues with mental health pushed me into (voluntary) walking, just couldn't take the stress, the earlies (my god, they almost killed me), some nasty colleagues (look back at my posts around 2006'ish) and just at the end of my tether, and this was my first flying job, straight out of a CPL/IR and managed to last just over two years. They were (looking back) the best of times and the worst. But... flying as a career wasn't for me.

Resorted back to my previous profession, once currency went so did any option of returning to flying, not that I wanted to, the year after quitting (2007) I look back as the happiest of my life. I now do Software Consultancy, the very same I were in before I undertook training.

It's just not worth sacrificing your health if you have issues, if you do, you'll one day regret it.