EK medical and color vision

[EH574]

Hi all,
I am considering EK for future employment, but I have a little concern about my medical.
I hold an unrestricted class 1 medical and have been flying on a medium jet since 2008 in EU. Whereas I failed the Ishihara test back in 2005 I succesfully gained my medical thanks to one of the alternative approved jaa tests for color vision.
Now, I have queried EK recruitment about this issue, and they told me they also use Ishihara and, in case of failure, the so called CAD test which dedects the seriousness of color deficiency.
As any of you guys gone through this new exam? Or was any issue raised by the UAE AME about your color vision, if any?
Of course theonly way to get a clear answer about my situation would be the assessment itself, but I wouldn't like to just fail without any previous feedback.

Thank you all,
Safe flying.


EH574

[flyinthesky]

I passed the selection VERY recently. I have always had problems with the Ishihara tests. There are a very small number of people who are NOT colour blind but their brain cannot process the dots.
They use a computer based test instead. It is absolutely fine provided you pass it!!!
Please do not let the stress put you off. See a doc before you go and double check if you are unsure.

[EH574]

Thanks for the info, but, as far as I underatood by reading the UAE GCAA medical requirements they intend to check color vision every 5 years till age 40 and every 2 years after that. So ,do they intend to question the entire situation again or is it like in EU? That is to say if you are color safe at initial medical then you are for the rest of your career.
That would be a disgrace to be dismissed because of that after 5 years,methink.

[donpizmeov]

EH, you do the dot test every year as part of your medical renewal when here. If you want to join, don't worry about this. Come do the interviews, do the medical and see what happens. If you pass you pass, if you don't you had a holiday in the sand. You will not be able to change the way the things are done here, and as this is the case, don't waste time worrying about things you have no control over. There will be plenty of other things to worry about once you join :E.

the Don

[safelife]

I get checked for color vision every time I renew my medical, in a JAA country.
Never understood the sense to that though.

[EH574]

Thanks for the infos, any idea how that thing is dealth with during renewals? Is the CAD test performed at the initial medical taken into account every time?

Regards


EH574

[Schnowzer]

Don't know but we had a mate recently that came to EK colour blind and tried to defraud the loss of licence system....allegedly!

[Mister Warning]

From the LIPS website :

Submitted: 8th January 2011
Medical Condition: Vision
Details: Member claimed the condition was developed while at Emirates and after joining LIPS. The LIPS Committee required an additional medical evaluation, as per LIPS Rules which require the claimant to undergo additional medical evaluation, as necessary.

The member refused to undergo an additional medical evaluation by a specialist, as required by the LIPS Rules.

Claim was therefore denied, due to claimant unwilling to undergo further medical testing to ascertain congenital nature of ailment.

Mos : Call any of the LIPS Directors, instead of posting bullspit. Just ask.

[Sheikh Your Bootie]

True or false Habibi. The claimant, was asked to undergo some tests by LIPS? The claimant refused. Why??? True afaik.


SyB :zzz:

[Rotaiva]

The bloke in question is as genuine and honest as they come! As was his claim.LIPS continued to want more and more data. Every time he supplied them with their needs, they wanted something else.

Continual stalling.

Every other organization was happy with tests undertaken, - not LIPS !

As MosEisly puts it so well: "If you want to have more restrictive medical criteria for members of your organization then you should require a medical specifically for LIPS before you start accepting payment."

[EH574]

All of this makes me understand that EK AMEs can basically fail you for minor color vision issues even if the CAD test done at initial medical was good. Or am I missing something?

[emratty]

The initial EK medical used to use the standard Ishihara test which involves reading the numbers hidden in the dots. This booklet is standard the world over and has been the same book for every pilot medical I have ever attended. It is very easy to "learn" the numbers even if you can't read them. I am not suggesting this is what has happened here as I don't have any information about the case but I think the EK initial medical now requires a full eye examination from an opthamologist which will pick up colour blindness in a much more reliable way.
Where i suspect LIPS are able to avoid paying out is the fact you are born with colour blindness therefore it is classed as a pre existing condition.

[Mister Warning]

Mos,
LIPS are currently paying 3 legitimate claimants.
They will pay all legitimate claims as per the LIPS rules.
The LIPS commitee are entrusted to do what is best for the members.
Fraudulent claims are not paid.
Now, give us a break, stop bad-mouthing the scheme anonymously and call one of the directors!
Cheers.

[General Dogsbody]

So are you saying it was Fraudulent claim?

[Mister Warning]

Mos,
I am not a LIPS director, member or even EK pilot.
Nevertheless I do know that the directors are volunteers, do not draw a salary but do invest a lot of their time to administering the scheme for the benefit of the members.
They have denied 2 claims and allowed 3.
LIPS can support 10 times the statistical average LoL claims.
And yes, all the above is available on the website.

[Getzo]

MW it may not be called a salary, call it a volunteer fee. :ok:

[Wizofoz]

Mos,

Reading through the rules I think you do have a point, but I can see where it is something of a grey area.

It seems like your friend had a pre existing condition that was missed initially. Note that being accepted as medically fit by EK is NOT the criteria for membership, and that the criteria for benefit is being eligible for Emirates Sick leave.

If your friend was NEVER QUALIFIED for a UAE medical, but EK and the GCAA gave him one in error, I do see that LIPS might have a case for non payment.

They do have a responsibility to safeguard our funds, and I'm sure didn't do this lightly.

In any case, I think you would be foolish to leave LIPS because you don't agree with one claim. I know several guys who would clearly have qualified for payment, and regret not being in the scheme.

No scheme is perfect, and you have every right to disagree with this case, but that's no reason to walk away from what, on the whole, is the best insurance available to us.

[Schnowzer]

I heard he had a problem when asked to trace the numbers on the Ishihara test with his finger cos the nurse did it out of sequence. Said that wasn't a test requirement when challenged. Who would know that?

[BigGeordie]

Seems to me that EK would either have to pay up or admit that their medical department had issued a medical when they shouldn't have done. No chance of the clinic admiting to a mistake like that.

[BigGeordie]

To LIPS I think it is a case of whether or not the guy knew he had a colour vision problem which would have made him ineligible for a GCAA licence. If he did know and had managed to cheat his way through the tests for a number of years (not a difficult thing to do) then it would be a pre-existing condition which he had not disclosed. No insurance company would pay up under those circumstances regardless of what Emirates or the GCAA had done.

I'm not a opthamologist (heck, I can barely spell it!) but I've never heard of somebody "becoming" colour blind. I always thought you were either born with it or you weren't.

[Fart Master]

BG has hit the nail on the head. As I understand it the gent in question had managed to bluff his way through previous tests. Surely if LIPS has done something wrong in denying him his claim then he should sue them..... which hasn't happened.

And I also don't think you can become colour blind, you are born with whatever rods, cones and ganglions god gave you. Your acuity etc can deteriorate to the point where you can't read the ishihara test etc. but the ability to see colours doesn't change... I stand to be corrected.

[145qrh]

I always thought colour vision did not change, but a quick google says otherwise.

There can be a loss of colour associated with a few diseases, and aging..however it does not show LIPS in the best light.

Also mentions they have denied 2 and paid 3 others, not a great strike rate, I assume the failed applicants also had EK pay out?

I have a basic mistrust of anything run or administered by pilots,LIPS, EPI,and no doubt a dozen other failed "guaranteed money" makers.

Leave it to the profeshenuls:oh:

[Pitch Up Authority]

An ex EK AME once assured me that the loss of license at EK is full of loopholes. EK is not a reliable employer. Most pilots think it will never happen to them. Well you are mistaken.

The real issue is that you have no chance of winning against them in court.

[Wizofoz]

PUA,

You understand that in the case under discussion, Emirates PAID the guy his Loss of Licence, and it was LIPS that denied the claim?

[Pitch Up Authority]

Wizofoz

The real issue is that EK has problems with their integrity as a whole (not just the medical) while at the same time they need a lot of pilots. That and that alone is the big picture.

It takes years and a lot of money before a pilot gets his license. It then takes many more years before he is ready to assume full responsibility.

In the UAE and particular EK he can then loose all this in a split second, simply because some dr. Ego does not want to loose face. I know this for sure since I taped the conversations with several EK AME.

In this case EK may have paid him in an attempt to do some damage control, but that does not change the reality of this place. EK and the UAE are a very dangerous environment for a professional pilot to work in.

The same is true for the drs. that work for them. One mistake and you are out. It will not happen immediately. They will support the dr. at first and get rid of the pilot. Some time later the dr. will go as well. Everything done in silence under the motive “medical”.

That dr. Wizofoz is what EK is all about. They have the ICAO in their pocket.

[BigGeordie]

MosEisley, people don't want fraudulent claims paying, which this one may or may not be. This is not some faceless insurance company with millions of dollars in the bank, this is our money we are talking about. As a LIPS member I would hope every claim would be throughly investigated, including mine if I ever need to make one. It appears that this is what happened here but I doubt anybody posting on this thread has the full story from both sides.

We have about 3,000 pilots now and it is a fair bet that some of that number would not be averse to claiming for loss of licence rather than flogging back and forward to India in the middle of the night for the next 20 years. It is in the nature of medical insurance that some claims will be refused and some will fall into a grey area. I trust the LIPS guys more than I would trust the previously mentioned faceless insuance company with shareholders to keep happy. That is why I pay the premium.

[Wizofoz]

They have the ICAO in their pocket.

???

Did you mean GCAA?

[Pitch Up Authority]

Wizofoz

I mean the ICAO.

When it happened the ICAO was in DXB conducting their SOAP.

The ICAO also had a field office in DXB at the time the audit took place. But the office was put aside.

The ICAO audit team from Montreal was also put aside by the EK CMO in close cooperation with the GCAA Director General. Hence the ICAO CMO wrote to me that there was nothing he could do since SOAP do NOT concentrate on medical procedures although it is a vital part of the licensing procedure. Moreover, the whole ICAO medical department has only one staffmember, the ICAO CMO himself. It is a complete joke.

The one EK AME that kept on defending me was kicked out of EK by the EK CMO and he went trough a existential depression needing electro-shocktherapy to get him out of it.

All this because one man did not want to loose face. At a later stage the EK CMO was removed and went trough a divorce when his wife found out what a jerk she had married. In a worldwide message EK identified themselves with the personality of their CMO "He is all what we are standing for".

The current GCAA CMO is only there to do what she is being told from above. His Highness was personally involved with the cover up.

The place is dangerous.

[Pitch Up Authority]

What if the fraud is on the side of the EK medical?

[etops777]

Mos

I am with you on this one.

[Pitch Up Authority]

This is EXACTLY what I mean when I say that EK is a dangerous place for any pilot.

It is all about money and they have no scruples. You can loose your GCAA medical by a decision of some moron, hence loose your medical all over the world.

When asked by any other authority if you ever lost your medical, then what do you say?

[Wizofoz]

PUA,

Very sorry you went through that. I'm sure such things happen here (hell, I've SEEN such things happen here). I only commented as it wasn't really on topic for this thread- not because I doubt your story.

[BYMONEK]

PUA

Mate, start another forum "I'm Pissed off with EK because.......". You and the usual crowd of complainers can moan to your hearts content there.

This discussion is referring to LIPS and has bugger all to do with Emirates and their medical policies.

[White Knight]

PUA,

Very sorry you went through that. I'm sure such things happen here (hell, I've SEEN such things happen here). I only commented as it wasn't really on topic for this thread- not because I doubt your story.

I wouldn't listen to the vitriolic bollox from PUA if I were you Wiz... He's sent me some seriously WIERD PMs about his 'situation' and all I can see from those is that he's LOCO...

Sure some weird stuff happens anywhere - but PUA is on his own mission:D:D:D

[Schnowzer]

Bottom line, we don't!

[Dune]

I have been following this thread with interest as I am a member of LIPS.

I quite honestly cannot understand where the individual in question (and his supporters) get off claiming he is entitled to a claim. Granted, I have got the story only from what is written here but it appears highly likely the pilot in question had a preexisting condition (which is disallowed under the LIPS policy). Only a very small percent of all color blindness cases are not hereditary and happen due to eye disease (in my reading).

I was interested (and surprised) to learn that someone who is born color blind is still eligible to hold an FAA license and was also surprised to learn there are 7 different Pseudoisochromatic test plates allowed by the FAA (3 of which inc variations on the infamous Ishihara plates). What surprised me was if a person knows he/she is born color blind they can go to an optometrist or ophthalmologist (not an FAA AME) to take the FAA-approved "alternative tests" along with a standard FAA eye exam. If passed, when he/she goes to the FAA AME for their aviation medical and submits the test results the AME has no choice but to accept the eye test.

Not knowing this individual; I am going to speculate.

1) I suspect he had a color deficiency issue since birth. Using one of the alternative tests, he was able to legally hold an FAA license with his condition.

2) However, when coming to EK/GCAA (where the Ishihara plate is the accepted standard test with the Farnsworth lantern as the only alternative test), is it possible he was aware of this (through info given over Pprune and others who have interviewed with EK) and memorized the Ishihara plates? (I had a friend years ago who memorized the eye chart forward and backwards!).

3) He does the EK medical with a not-too-thorough medical assistant (most of whom now know the "memory scam" and go back-to-front or random throughout the book; last time she turned the book upside down and had me draw the number with my finger on a couple plates!) and passes the color blindness test.

4) Subsequently he gets discovered during a routine EK medical, claims he has never been color blind, collects the EK money (which he is entitled to as he cannot hold a GCAA license with his condition and what they will accept as far as color blindness is concerned) and looks to LIPS for long term disability payments.

5) At this point I would expect LIPS would do a thorough examination of the medical history of this individual prior to approving long term disability payments. Since he had an FAA license, there will be a full medical history on every license renewal he did since he did his PPL. Either he had a preexisting condition (which is most likely and would be documented on those previous medicals) or he has a degenerative eye disease which would be easily diagnosed by any trained Aviation Ophthalmologist or board certified eye surgeon.

Not knowing to what extent this individual provided his complete medical documentation history and/or allowed himself to be thoroughly examined by a trained aviation Ophthalmologist (which I would personally go out of my way to do if I was in his situation), it is difficult to claim this issue is "unfair". If he provided complete medical documentation that proves he had no history of color blindness AND he submitted to an exam where the reason for the color blindness was found to be a degenerative eye disease; THEN he would have had a claim and a denial would have been unfair. Was this done? No one has said.

In addition, you mentioned he went on to "greener pastures". If that pasture is a flying position, irrespective of what was written above, he would not be eligible for LIPS payments anyway (which cease upon recovery of ANY AVIATION LICENSE as far as I am aware). As such, if he went back to the U.S. and holds a valid FAA license (which he would still be able to hold given the "alternative" color blindness tests the FAA allows) he is not entitled to LIPS payments (as he is not disabled and unable to work as a pilot); he has lost his job with Emirates due to not being able to pass a GCAA exam but is fully capable of holding an FAA license. The two are different cases.

In short:

-the EK payout is a 1-time event because you cannot operate as a pilot with EK because you cannot pass the GCAA medical;

-the LIPS payout is ongoing because you cannot operate as a pilot ANYWHERE because you cannot pass ANY aviation authority medical exam and cannot be employed as a pilot.

I applaud LIPS for taking a hard look at each and every case. That is my money (and that of my fellow pilots) that they are playing with. I want to be sure it will be there for me if I truly need it (as it has for the 3 unfortunate pilots who are currently collecting). That means a CATASTROPHIC medical condition which precludes me from ever flying ANYWHERE again.

I am sorry to hear about this fellow as no one wants to have this happen to them. I hope every dime I put into LIPS will never have to be used by me but I damn well want to feel secure they are there to protect me.

My opinion for what its worth.

[Schnowzer]

Hey Mos,

That's one way to get the last word, keep posting and delete all the earlier ones.:ok:

[777-Up]

For proof the colour blindness claim, made by the former USA gentleman who departed EK, do this. It is known to certain parties that the gentleman's PPRUNE username is 'RELV3'.

1. Do a search in Google for "PPRUNE RELV3"
2. Choose the top search result
3. Find a post by 'RELV3'
4. Click that name and select; Find More Posts by relv3 (http://www.pprune.org/search.php?do=finduser&u=212875)
5. See the post made on 15th Jan 2008, 13:35 (while he was preparing to join EK)

EK Color Vision Question
"Can anyone help? I am wanting to get on with EK however I have some issues with color vision. I do not have a SODA. What I have is a letter from the FAA that states I have passed an alternative color vision test and no longer have to have my color vision checked when I have my medicals done. Is this accepted by EK? I have a clean FAA record and clean medical because of the letter. No waivers at all. Anybody with info would be appreciated. Thanks."

6. Ask yourself; why would any pilot ask, BEFORE he takes a Company medical; what kind of colour vision test they do. UNLESS he already knows he's colour blind and that it can be detected by certain tests, but not others?

7. This gentleman knew he was colour blind. Lied on the EK application form, GCAA medical, and continued to do so over years.

8. As such, his LIPS claim was fraudulent and was not paid. Suggests LIPS protects its members and funds, for those claims that are genuine, no?

[Airb]

Does anybody know whether EY and QR do the Ishihara test during the recruitment process? Or just EK does?!!
Thanks