flying France to Spain

[rans6andrew]

I believe that there is a region of "hills" between the south end of France and the North end of Spain.

If you want to fly a light aircraft between the two, how high do you need to be able to fly?

Any advice regarding sensible routings will be welcomed, I am looking at mid summer next year.

Ta,

Rans6....

[peterh337]

You mean the Pyrenees? They are quite big hills!

Here are a few pics (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/valencia/index.html). The required height depends on where you are crossing.

Of the mountain crossings I have done (mostly the Alps) the Pyrenees offer the poorest engine out landing opportunities.

[felixflyer]

Hi

I flew from Blackbushe to Barcelona earlier this year. If you have a flyer magazine from a couple of months ago then there is a write up in there.

I planned a direct route from Cherbourg to Barcelona straight over the top at 12000'. The highest point around there was just over 10000' As has been said there are not many options in the case of an engine failure but we were in a Cirrus so always had the chute as a backup. I really didnt know for definate whether we would get the cloud base to get over safely, so I planned Perpingnan as an alternate and would fly there then route around the coast if we needed to. This may be an option.

The flight actually went really well and we got straight over no problems. Once the ground starts to fall away at the other side it is quite a steep decent though into Sabadell. On the way back with full fuel and hot weather it took a bit of climbing to get up to the required altitude.

[A and C]

Could it be the "we can always use the chute" attitude that is pushing the price of Cirrus insurance up ?

If you did not have the chute would you have gone around the high ground or taken the same route ?

[rans6andrew]

Some good stuff there, thanks chaps.

I guess I should have said "vfr", 3 axis microlight, negative TXPNDR.

There will be a few of us heading down for the World Microlight Championships.

Rans6....

[Jan Olieslagers]

heading down for the World Microlight ChampionshipsAny pointers for information on this event?

Edit: found this already
Marugan Airfield has now been confirmed as the Airfield that is being used.
The proposed dates for WMC 2012 are August 7th to August 18th 2012

[A and C]

If you decide to go along the South coast there is a little microlight strip just inside France, that might be a usefull tech stop, it is just North of the last Motorway toll gate in France.

[patowalker]

From Lezignan LFMZ to Ampuriabrava LEAP, avoiding Perpignan airspace, MSA is 5000' amsl.

[Jan Olieslagers]

@ Rans6 : I had thought of coming too, but as it is in the reportedly hot central region of Spain, and in the hottest season, I will think twice.

@ patowalker: have you any info on the acceptance of microlights at Empuriabrava? I visited the a/d driving, and it looked very much a rich people's place, where the likes of us (or at least our craft) might be frowned upon.

[patowalker]

There is a ULM school at Empuriabrava. UK microlight pilots have been known to use the airfield, which does not require the use of Spanish (or Catalan). This is appreciated by those who never get beyond: "dos cervezas, por favor".

[pilotohog]

Hi,

If you are planning to come to Spain to Marugan, it's better to arrive throught the west part of the pyreenes than from the east. There are 3 airfields that will wellcome any microlight.
As far as I know, east of pamploma (LEPP) there is a field called Santa Cilia de Jaca (LECI), any microlight can land there. They have restaurant, pool, hangar, AVGAS, etc etc. From here to marugan there is only 3 hours flight.

Between LECI and LEPP there is another microlight field called "Lumbier" but I do not have any information, only have overfly it but never landed.

A bit to the south, there is another field called "San Torcuato" which is almost 100% microlights, it is about 15Nm from Logroño airport (LELO), it is a grass strip but I believe they don´t have MOGAS, though there is a gas station very close and the owner lives in the field. He owns also a small bar so meal is available at the field.

If I can be of any more help, please send me a PM and I will do my best. By the way, I have sold my Cap 231 for a new Savage Cub with tundra wheels and will try to fly to Marugan to visit. I will be based in San Torcuato so keep me in touch in any case for future support, I will be glad to help if I can.

Best regards,

Miguel

[S-Works]

We do this trip most weeks, in fact we have an inbound from Empuriabrava right now. I tend to route Guernsey-Santander but if you are coming from the French side you can fly all the way down the 100 mile beach and round the corner passed Bilbao and into Santander. Depending on where you head next depends on where you cross the mountains. Direct south from Santandar you will nee to be able to make at least 9,000ft. If you head round towards the Portuguese end there are lower crossings.

Empuria is a really nice field and very welcoming, we have an aircraft down there virtually all the time at the moment. The parking does get wet though in the the winter!

edit speeeling...

[Jan Olieslagers]

@pilotohog & bose-x: thanks for information and for good intentions - I will remember both!
Might well make LEAP my first "long distance" expedition. In September or even October, of course, can't stand high summer heat even at 51 degrees north.

[rans6andrew]

Ta Pilotohog,

are you going to support your team at the championships?

Marugan is about 50nm NW of Madrid so a routing from San Sebastian and then SW via Vitoria or Logrono would be close to a staight line. Not sure what altitude we would need for that route. If the Wx/cloudbase should prevent a VFR flight over the hills we could take the costal route .......

I have only been to Spain in the summer a few times but it was blue sky and cloud free for the duration. Is north/central Spain prone to cloud cover? It always seem to be dry.

With regard to going over or around, the aircraft is good for the altitude (it made 7000 ft in 5 mins at MTOW, UK summer temperatures in the flight testing) but airways and human performance might be the limiting factors. I guess I need to get out my atlas and see how the land lies. That pool to the east of Pamplona sounds tempting if the crossing to there is not too high.

Rans6........

ps: the Rans S6 is not the aircraft for this trip!

[funfly]

If there was any concern about the value of PPRune then look no further than the posts in this thread. Is it, maybe, that these are GA fliers and not the moaning minnies that frequent the airline forums? Credit to you all and a Happy New Year.

[patowalker]

Between LECI and LEPP there is another microlight field called "Lumbier" but I do not have any information, only have overfly it but never landed.

Centro de Vuelo Lumbier (http://www.vuelolumbier.com/index.php)

[pilotohog]

From San Sebastián to Vitoria is a bit tricky since it is all hills, i will print a map my sugestion. From Vitoria to Marugan a straight línea is perfect, thought altitude is increasing above sea level ( Burgos altitude is 3000 ft) there are no hills nor montains except to the east, so you can fly 1000 AGL in flat to Marugan.

Marugan is close to Segovia City, north of Madrid, there are some montains between Madrid and Marugan, but only you have to cross them if you are coming from the south, it is not your case.

I will try to print the flight from san Sebastián to Vitoria. I worldwide soy tris is the tricky zone from France to Marugan.

Best regards,

Miguel

[rans6andrew]

San Sebastian was suggested simply because it is close to being a straight line from just west of Paris. I don't know how many others will be making the same trip, how fast they will want to fly or how many hours per day they want to do.

My ideal would be from home to Chartres (sw of Paris) on the first day.

On the second day I would want to get close to the "hills" on the French side.

From there to Marugan on the third day.

Where we cross the "hills" is open to suggestion, if there is somewhere to the east of San Seb that makes Vitoria a sensible choice then I will look for a suitable place to overnight close to the line from Chartres to Vitoria. We could stop for a dip and a cuppa near to Vitoria.

Rans6....

[patowalker]

Rans6...

Forget about San Sebastian or Vitoria. Microlights are not allowed to use controlled airfields in Spain.

Nogaro LFCN looks like a a good 'base camp' for crossing "the hills". There is a camping site 50 mts from the aerodrome and a selection of hotels nearby.
bienvenue Nogaro (Gascogne, France), ville de l'aroclub du Bas Armagnac base de planeurs, avions, hlicoptres, ULMs et Autogires (http://www.aeronogaro.com/presentation.htm#Venir%20%C3%A0%20Nogaro)

The guys on the AEPAL (Spanish micro assoc) forum, say it is a good idea to make the first landing in Spain at a field with an ICAO designator, because using ZZZZ and Remarks on a FPL has been known to cause problems. That is a shame, because Lumbier looks like a nice airfield. The closest seems to be Sanguesa LESG, but on YouTube it looks like a field in the middle of knowhere. On a straight line from Nogaro to Sanguesa SD stipulates a MSA of 7200'.

Have you got a transpoder?

[Coolhand78]

Taking into account your plan, I would propose to cross Pyrenees from Arudy or Asson, following the valley up to Laruns. From there you have to leave the Pic du Midi just to your left, and direct to the Canfranc valley. You will leave Pyrenees in the vertical of Jaca, very near of LECI for a short (or maybe long) break before continuing to Marugan.

I have made this crossing several times with a Tecnam P2002 and with good weather is 'easy' and the views are really stunning!.
(Look at this gallery (http://gallery.me.com/coolhand78#100010) if you want, it contains several photos of this crossing)

I recommend to do it in the morning, as soon as possible and not later than noon or early afternoon. In summer it is very likely to found big CB formed over Pyrenees.

Once in Spain you won't have to cross anything like the Pyrenees in extension, but take into account that we have a lot of mountain ranges and almost all the country is between 2000' and 3000' AGL, even if it is flat. For example, Marugan is at 3000'.

For the base in France from where to do the Pyrenees crossing, I would recommend Montpezat airfield (http://www.ulmstex.com/). An ULM-only grass field with lodging, free wifi, unleaded mogas and very helpful people. Maybe it is a bit far from Pyrenees, but if you take off early in the morning it is ok. If you prefer something closer to Pyrenees you can expend the night in Auch/Lamothe (LFDH). Very big asphalt runway with a decent sized town very near. Take into account that this is a french-only AFIS airfield.

[patowalker]

Pilotohog and Coolhand

Many thanks for the info. A plan is taking shape.