BAE 146-200 - UOR for Two

[Mandator]

MOD has gone out to tender on a UOR for two BAE 146-200 aircraft. The buy is estimated to cost £6m.

When BAE Systems sold its Asset Management outfit a few months ago they made £500k or so per aircraft.

[jamesdevice]

BAe 146 for Sale - Used Jet Sales at GlobalPlaneSearch.com (http://www.globalplanesearch.com/bae/jets/146.htm)

no need to tender, just pick up the phone!

[Chicken Leg]

What are they to be used for?

[Mandator]

jd: presumably because that is how you spend taxpayers' money. No doubt the owners of those aircraft advertised on the website will be beating a path to Bristol with their best and final offers.

[polyglory]

Redundant Airships etc:D

[sycamore]

Plenty sitting at Sarf`end....

[NutLoose]

Might be plenty sitting at Southend, but remember commonality is everything, unless they do not have totally incompatibility in every respect, cockpit, avionics, instrument fit and layout, totally different engine variants, totally different mod Specs, (the rarer and most importantly incompatible with the rest of the 200 series and more specifically the other one) then the MOD will not touch them.

[Rigga]

Bins full of 'em at Norwich.

[Green Flash]

How far can a -200 get - from the Falklands?!:confused::ooh:

And are they straight pax or at least one with a cargo door?

[Teddy Robinson]

I'm in the market for three 300 series EFIS ... with airstairs !!!! pm if you have some :8

[Lower Hangar]

Royal Flight spares/replacements ?

[Vick Van Guard]

Bins full of 'em at Norwich.

Nope. All spoken for.

Anyway heard they were after 'QC's, and there aint many them around.

[Opsbeatch]

Can get you a deal on QC's for the right price...:E:E

OB

[Herod]

Just don't breathe in the "conditioned" air.

[HaveQuick2]

Is this a different acquisition to the pair that QinetiQ are supposed to be getting?

[sprucemoose]

The Qinetiq aircraft will be an RJ70 and an RJ100, so this is different.

[XV277]

Could these be the long rumoured 'in-theatre' transport to free up dwindling numbers of C-130s?

[Pontius Navigator]

Nut Loose, I wonder if they considered getting Marshalls to upgrade a couple of Dominies?

Low hours, only 46 years old, respared 22 years ago, get them respared again as part of the upgrade, they already have a toilet.

[sprucemoose]

News update on this now on Flightglobal:
RAF to fly second-hand BAe 146s in Afghanistan (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/raf-to-fly-second-hand-bae-146s-in-afghanistan-366796/)

[NURSE]

RAF to fly second-hand BAe 146s in Afghanistan (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/raf-to-fly-second-hand-bae-146s-in-afghanistan-366796/)

I see the RAF are looking to buy 2 more Bae 146 for ops in Afghanistan. But weren't 2 sold of to the Philipines and Indonesia?

ZD696 & ZE702 a CC1 & CC2

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

Already discussed at http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/472270-bae-146-200-uor-two.html:zzz:

[XV277]

RAF to fly second-hand BAe 146s in Afghanistan (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/raf-to-fly-second-hand-bae-146s-in-afghanistan-366796/)

I see the RAF are looking to buy 2 more Bae 146 for ops in Afghanistan. But weren't 2 sold of to the Philipines and Indonesia?

ZD696 & ZE702 a CC1 & CC2

The 2 CC1s were only ever on loan from BAe to evaluate them for the Andover replacement.

On the face of it, it may seem a little short sighted getting rid of ZE702, but the 'new' aircraft are a larger capacity aircraft with a different configuration doing a different job. (CC2s being -100 aircraft)

[Mandator]

A contract notice today suggests that tenders have been invited from Falko Ltd, TNT Airways SA and Titan Airways Ltd.

[StopStart]

I still think the RAF would be better served by just spending the money on C130 spares and manning the Herc Eng Line properly. Oh, and actually putting some high level thought into the sensible/effective use of theatre lift.
:(

[Ken Scott]

I still think the RAF would be better served by just spending the money on C130 spares and manning the Herc Eng Line properly.

Stopstart: what are you thinking about? Don't you realise that it's much better to spend squillions on charter aircraft than on spares for dirty old C130s? Don't you appreciate the brilliance of having a 'Just-in-time' spares support system but without any spares? People have been promoted for getting us into this mess, that's what's important not your selfish desire to be able to do your job properly and effectively!

[StopStart]

I certainly feel foolish now. You are of course correct. :{

[Mandator]

The contract notice today says that they got two offers and the contract has been awarded to TNT Airways SA of Liege, and is valued at GB£3.91m.

[El_Presidente]

I'm naturally confident that the aircraft will be fitted with the appropriate DAS ...

:rolleyes:

But being 'old school' I certainly wouldn't feel as confident boarding as in-theatre pax on a 146 as I would a C-130. I recall there being some disquiet about system redundancy (compared to the Ks) when the Js were introduced about ten years ago (unfounded I'm sure)... Now, will the 146 have such sufficient redundancy? ESF?

After XV179 there were many questions asked by MPs about whether the MoD were skimping on ac protection due to 'resource reasons' ... the demand was made then that the MoD provide evidence to demonstrate that this is not the case

The UK Deployment to Afghanistan: Fifth Report of Session 2005-06; Report ... - Great Britain: Parliament: House of Commons: Defence Committee - Google Books (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=q7-OVQvYUOUC&lpg=PA20&dq=C130%20Defensive%20Aids%20suite&pg=PA20#v=onepage&q=C130%20Defensive%20Aids%20suite&f=false)

Be interesting to see how this develops.

[aw ditor]

The 146 has good system redundancy', the electrics support the hydraulics and the hydraulics support the electrics. The design dates back to the 1960s' and presumably complies with the then BCARs'.

[cornish-stormrider]

If this weren't so tragic it'd be laughable.
oh, hang on. Thats what the rest of the world is doing to us.

God help us, we are proper shafted. I realise it is too much for someone to fall on his sword, actually own up to making such a balls up that we need to do this, go cap in hand to buy some used cabs.

whats next - armoured vehicles from the scrappy??
Guns from the enemy??
In fact - would that not be cheaper? don't fight em, buy em out....

[pr00ne]

cornish-stormrider,

What on earth is your problem? Additional assets being acquired to address an operational need. You whinge if we don't have them and whinge when we do go and get them.

Why on earth is ANYONE laughing at this? Almost every Air force on the face of the planet occasionally purchases second hand aircraft and equipment, this is no different.

Odd...

[El_Presidente]

cornish-stormrider,

What on earth is your problem? Additional assets being acquired to address an operational need. You whinge if we don't have them and whinge when we do go and get them.

Why on earth is ANYONE laughing at this? Almost every Air force on the face of the planet occasionally purchases second hand aircraft and equipment, this is no different.

Odd...

pr00ne, I'm not sure of any history going on between you two but...

The forecast paucity of Tac AT was plane (oops) for all to see when I was at Strike back when it was still called Strike...the retirement of the K fleet required the J to fill the capability gap (circa 2012 - 2016 back then) of its niche customers before A400m is declared operational.

It's a sorry state of affairs to firstly create a capability gap; and then to simply stand around staring at it whilst we kick imaginary stones around the mouth of the chasm in front of us...

The navy and the army have both suffered in similar ways with some of their asset acquisitions/terminations.

We never seem to learn though, as one other poster said in a previous thread - the Tristars were a temporary Strat AT stop-gap in 1986...so temporary they're still in service now!

[Roadster280]

Proone,

The implicit point is that had things not been so mismanaged in the first place, the requirement would already have been satisfied using in-service resources. In this case, either a shedload more C130 or A400M already in service.

Not acknowledging this is similar to the Israeli-Palestinian issue. The Palestinians were "done out of" their land. When the Israelis acknowledge the wrongs done to the Palestinians in the 1940s to create their state, then things might improve.

You haven't considered a career in Politics, have you?

[BEagle]

The 146 has good system redundancy....

Yup, no less than 5 APUs....:rolleyes:

[XV277]

URGENT OR? Looks who is updating them! ;)

BAE Systems is to modify two used BAe 146 transports for the UK Ministry of Defence under an urgent operational requirement deal to support operations in Afghanistan.

"The C-17 and CS Project Team intends to place a contract with BAE Systems (Operations) for the upgrade of two second-hand civil BAe 146-200 quick change aircraft," the MoD said on 11 February. The deal will include the design, installation, test and certification of modifications required to allow the passenger type to enter military service, it added. These will include the installation of defensive aids system equipment to meet the UK's theatre-entry standard for operations in Afghanistan.



BAE to modify used 146-200 transports for Royal Air Force (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/bae-to-modify-used-146-200-transports-for-royal-air-force-368093/)

[cornish-stormrider]

Wow - I mean I wasn't expecting that. Did I pi** in your Steam Iron Proone?

What I was trying to say, badly some might say, was that ever since I was a boy (and way before) we have drawn down, gone short, made do, bodged, gone above and beyond.......
We go so far that now they have to run out and buy a couple of second handers.
If any private company ran like this they'd long since have gone to the wall....

Why does no-one do anything about it? I know we need to take a joke but sheesh.
The RAF's corporate message might as well be.......

In fact, I think we ought to have a morale thread - I'll start one.

[StopStart]

Interesting that "we" can find the money to scrape together a couple of theatre hacks for senior officers and visiting politicians yet struggle to find it to get the C130J fleet back on it's feet.

I have absolutely no problem with having "decent" jets to move our hierarchy around in but one does have to question their priorities when our TacAT fleet is so shagged that it's easier/cheaper to sack off crews than it is to fix the aircraft. I smell some low quality wisdom that is hoping the J will just about struggle on at minimal expense until the A400 arrives. I would also like to take this opportunity to predict yet another MoD sponsored royal balls up when this epic bit of strategic thought turns out to be horse****. Again.

C-S: Despite pr00ne being a dreadful old North London socialist he is quite correct. The infrastructure already exists to support to the 146 as it is already in service. A couple of second hand jets is infinitely cheaper than taking on a new type. It is also, it would seem, cheaper than C130 spares....

[Rigga]

Also...
Private companies do make a profit from regulary importing/exporting aircraft (757's in my experience) every 6 months to make the best use of cyclic travel patterns.

The RAF has a history of buying second-hand aircraft - VC10 and Tristar to name but two. And the RAF has been known to sell/rent/loan its aircraft out - Italian F3s.

The purchase of two low-value but useable freight and passenger capable aircraft for short term use is entirely reasonable and properly economic sense.

If they are successfully used, I can see no resaon why the RAF wouldnt buy more 146/RJ aircraft to fill some transport gaps til their stretched contracts come to fruition.

It's all been done before (but 'they' then kept the short-term buys for dozens of years! Bucc's)

[hunty]

Gents

The first "new" BAe 146-200 was noted fully painted in RAF markings in a hanagr at Lelystad airport this weekend. Its a former TNT aircraft
(OO-TAY) and should become ZE708. :D

Hunty

[Flarkey]

Pics

Scramble Messageboard (http://forum.scramble.nl/viewtopic.php?p=562829#p562829)

[Moose Loadie]

Which Sqn are going to be operating them?

[haltonapp]

Being a pax in a 146 freighter is not luxury flying I can assure you, I jump seated from Liege to Stansted in a TNT one some eleven or twelve years ago, and I don't think they will have got any better in the meantime!

[Stratofreighter]

As the photos at Scramble Messageboard • Information (http://forum.scramble.nl/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=83357)
show she is now off to Chester. :)

[Chicken Leg]

Proone,

The implicit point is that had things not been so mismanaged in the first place, the requirement would already have been satisfied using in-service resources. In this case, either a shedload more C130 or A400M already in service.

Not acknowledging this is similar to the Israeli-Palestinian issue. The Palestinians were "done out of" their land. When the Israelis acknowledge the wrongs done to the Palestinians in the 1940s to create their state, then things might improve.

You haven't considered a career in Politics, have you?

It's not often that I find myself agreeing with Proone, but I certainly do on this point!

'A shedload more C130's' might cost a little more than the several million being spent on these two aircraft.

Everybody seems to ignore the state of our public finances (thanks to Gordon and his mate Tony) and complains when fleets are retired or deteriorate, but then also complain when the problem is addressed. If the UK is to pull out of Afghan in 2014, then why would we want to address that specific operational requirement by spending billions on an entire fleet?

Yes, you can argue that we need to spend billions on our AT fleet for our longer term requirement, but the 146's are a cheap, specific, short term solution, to a specific, short term operational requirement.

And for the poster who suggested that these aircraft are for VIP transport, I think you might have misread the brief! Why do you think the C130's are all falling over??

[Wycombe]

Haltoapp said:

Being a pax in a 146 freighter is not luxury flying I can assure you

I sit to be corrected, but these aircraft are QC's and not pure freighters, so will have a pax-friendly interior, but with seats on pallets so they can be quickly role-changed for freight.

Lufthansa used to do this with quite a few 737's, ie, fly pax during the day then roll the seat pallets out through the side door (which is at the rear on these 146's) and fly freight at night.

I also notice from the pics that the area where some additional equipment might be fitted has been left unpainted at the rear of the fuselage.

These also must be fairly late-model a/c, as they appear to be EFIS flight-decked (like the later Avro's).

[StopStart]

The C130s are falling over because the RAF has not allocated sufficient engineering resources to maintain them in a suitable state. That's all. As things stand it probably is cheaper to buy a couple of -146s than it is put right the pitiful state of the C130 fleet. :(

Oh and by the way, C130s are regularly wasted doing VIP nonsense.

[Roadster280]

My point isn't that the money should have been spent on more C130. It is that (more) money should have been spent on a shedload more C130 years ago, so that the current requirement would have been met with in-service resources.

Not entirely the MOD's fault, since A400M should have been in service a while back too, as an alternative to more C130. Although part of that delay might be down to the MOD... Nevertheless, once A400M is delayed, why not go to Lockheed there and then and get more C130, even if only leased, to offset the delay. Send the bill to Airbus, if the govt has the balls.

Given the current **** sandwich, some pocket change on a Band-Aid is not a bad thing to do, I agree. But this is treating the symptom, not the cause.

[Rigga]

R280,

I think you and most people on here are in "violent agreement".

With no plan tangible plan for the short-term future, there is no tangible funding. So accounting for the short-term develops into a NHS sticking plaster - treating the symptom and waiting for the real problem to cure itself.

[Milo Minderbinder]

why not go to Lockheed there and then and get more C130,

Why not simply stop winding down the ones we have got, and put the withdrawn ones back into service? Or are they beyond repair?

[SteveMRobson]

XV 277 quote The 2 CC1s were only ever on loan from BAe to evaluate them for the Andover replacement.

The two 146's used for evaluation (c 1983) to replace the Andover were not on loan - they were purchased from BAe following their international sales tour so were not even new and despite a refurb prior to the delivery had a number of problems such as engine change in the first week. After teething problems they performed well and completed the evaluation of test flights and scheduled flights ahead of schedule before being sold to Dan-Air.

The 146 was built for rough work but can suffer from 'margin' problems in hot and high conditions but are used in Australia in rugged conditions. The QCs have a flexible operational capability.

[barnstormer1968]

I know virtually nothing about these aircraft, but do like the way that Royal Air Force has been painted on the sides. It looks better than the new corporate style, even if it has been over painted in red.

[Sook]

Code:
why not go to Lockheed there and then and get more C130,
Why not simply stop winding down the ones we have got, and put the withdrawn ones back into service? Or are they beyond repair?

I would suggest that most of them are beyond repair.

http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc143/Gingie28/IMG_0071.jpg

[XV277]

XV 277 quote The 2 CC1s were only ever on loan from BAe to evaluate them for the Andover replacement.

The two 146's used for evaluation (c 1983) to replace the Andover were not on loan - they were purchased from BAe following their international sales tour so were not even new and despite a refurb prior to the delivery had a number of problems such as engine change in the first week. After teething problems they performed well and completed the evaluation of test flights and scheduled flights ahead of schedule before being sold to Dan-Air.

Interesting, all the published material refers to them as being 'leased' and returned to manufacturer - ZD695/G-OBAF was certainly only ever chartered by Dan Air from BAE

GINFO Registration History | Aircraft Register | Operations and Safety (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=reg&fullregmark=DEBJ)


whilst G-SCHH/ZD696 was returned to BAE whilst with the RAF, and at the end of the period before going to Dan Air

GINFO Registration History | Aircraft Register | Operations and Safety (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=reg&fullregmark=SCHH)

I'm sure there is also an interesting story as to how BAE managed to register two separate aircraft as G-SCHH!!!

[Ken Scott]

Why not simply stop winding down the ones we have got, and put the withdrawn ones back into service? Or are they beyond repair?

The C130Ks that have been withdrawn from service are beyond returning, but they are all over 40 years old anyway. The real scandal is the state of the C130Js, a little over one quarter of that age but in a pretty shocking condition due to lack of engineering support & spares added to the high number of flying cycles/ hours that they have done in recent ops.

It might have been better to spend some of the cash on engineering backup but as Stoppers pointed out it's probably too late for that now particularly as the aircraft are due for disposal by 2020.....but as the C130Ks have ably demonstrated the requirement for a capable aircraft sometimes pushes it beyond its OSD & if the A400 doesn't achieve its Tac clearances in time....

So the C130J might also be forced to soldier on beyond 2020 having had the bare minimum spent on it for more than the past decade. Meanwhile, when does the shiny new £200 million C17 arrive?

[A2QFI]

We must hope that the health problems re toxic engine fumes in the aircraft have been addressed

More efforts to combat fumes in BAe 146 (http://tinyurl.com/884c7y2)

[ScottWilliam]

here are a few of the photos. I've also provide a link to a time-lapse video of the new livery being applied.


Enjoy!

for more details Vincent Aviation's "new" BAe 146! (http://airsoc.com/articles/view/id/4f547abbc6f8fa9331000002/vincent-aviation-s-new-bae-146?ev=10&evp=tl):ugh: