Shortage of ATCOs in UK

[Gisajob]

Is there going to be a shortage of newly rated ATCOs in the UK during 2012 ?

I have been trying to recruit an Aerodrome validated ATCO or an ADC/APP rated ATCO for Dunsfold near Guildford for several months and have had a very poor response. The salary is in the high thirties, there is an APP course included and the post has prospects.

There was a time when there were a dozen to choose from so what is happening to the ladder if the new Aerodrome ATCOs are not there.

I have had applications from newly rated non-validated ADC ATCOs and I will allow one or two to validate their rating in the middle of next year so that they can get a step on the ladder, but where are the current crop ?

Any constructive ideas would be welcome.

[throw a dyce]

An APP rating isn't or wasn't being included in the Nats training.Therefore there are probably a few ADC people out there,either ex Nats or self funded,but very few APP trained.As for APS then even less or none that aren't employed already.
I could say ££$$ but high 30s isn't going to attract many. :)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Shortage in 2012? There's been a shortage for the last 40 years!

[JackRalston]

I've been told for a countless number of years there has always been a shortage, I'm still waiting to book my Stage 1 test date with NATS, I couldn't commit to a date between March-June due to final year at University and then they shut it down to new applicants and so I am part of the waiting game.

Is it that NATS are finding it difficult to find adequately skilled people to train? Or is it that the process of Stage 1 to the end is taking far too long? With NATS' review now taking place (again) in February, I can see 2012 being a year of 'how do we get rid of this bottleneck effect with the new college?' :ugh:

[Andy Mayes]

It was always going to be difficult to attract ATCOs that are previously validated and experienced in ADI and APP.

Although geographically very different to Dunsfold, look at the problems Lydd had with attracting staff initially. I understand it is easier for them now they've had some Airfield development and therefore, what potential staff assume to be a 'future'.

Until Dunsfold is up and running with an IAP you're never going to attract many experienced ATCOs holding all the ratings you want, that said is Chevvron there?:}

PS. There's an Airfield not far from the River Roach with far more prospects and which recruited heavily last year and most of this year and offered more ££££ than you (and has a Mc Donald's on its door step:O), maybe that's where the current 'crop' are?

[chevvron]

Oi my teeth aren't that bad; my dentist in Poland sees to that!

[Talkdownman]

Both of your teeth look OK to me. I thought it was 'that' hairdresser that you went to Poland for...

Call me on company... ;)

[mts1]

Right, now the more I read the more I doubts I have. NATS is a World Leader in Air Traffic Managment and it's a wealthy company. Yet;
According to heathrow director it seems as if there has always been a shortage in ATC's, why?.
And in regard to to what I have read in this forum about the current recruitment process, I can deduce that it is just not working out as they predicted, why not?

[Talkdownman]

According to heathrow director it seems as if there has always been a shortage in ATC'sThat was always the case when HD and I were at EGLL from, I think, '72 to '03. I don't ever recall us being up to complement. Put quite a strain on the staff on occasions, and a few heroics. Yes, I know, how sad, sound of violins...

[NazgulAir]

When I was much younger, I applied for training once. At the interview I was told that they wouldn't take me on because I didn't have enough diplomas to qualify for becoming a controller, and I was overqualified for becoming an assistant controller so "I wouldn't be motivated enough in that job".
So that closed the ATC door on me forever, in my country at least.

Later, I applied to become one of a team of three ATC/airfield ops at a small regional aerodrome in Denmark. I was accepted for ATC training, but my appointment was cancelled when a Danish national applied (I am not Danish).

Now I'm just too old to be considered fit for anything except life as a consumer, a private pilot playing Airline in my own plane, at least for as long as my office job earnings are enough to pay for it. But I still remember the pain of not being allowed through that professional door.

[Spitoon]

As things are beginning to drift I'll point out that there is not necessarily a shortage of controllers but more likely a shortage of controllers with useful skills, experience and competence.

As to the original post, maybe those with the requisite qualifications have weighed up the pros and cons of the offer and decided that either there's something better out there or that it just isn't worth it.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

controllers with useful skills, experience and competence
I would add ,shortage of companies ready to pay adequatelly ,and give additional reasons to apply......
Not only UK, but worldwide as well...

[whitelighter]

Right, now the more I read the more I doubts I have. NATS is a World Leader in Air Traffic Managment and it's a wealthy company. Yet;
According to heathrow director it seems as if there has always been a shortage in ATC's, why?.
And in regard to to what I have read in this forum about the current recruitment process, I can deduce that it is just not working out as they predicted, why not?

mts1,

Everyone tends to look at their own units, and certainly LL is a special case. Certainly they still arent running a ful compliment of staff but its not just a case of recruiting more people. there are many who pass the rating course who are valid at other aerodromes who simply couldnt validate at Heathrow.

As far as general recruitment goes, I dont envy the NATS HR team one bit. Its a constant juggle of numbers and trying to predict what you might need and where not now, but 2-3 years hence.

NATS training is excellent, but it is also very thorough. NATS staff do more than is required by the EU for any rating. The pass rate at the college is around 65-70%, And I cant tell you what the validation rate is but it certainly isnt 100%. If I had to guess, Id say its probably eventually around 80%, but it does take some trainees a couple of goes (and a couple of units) to get there.

So take your pool of applicants, your actual traffic, your predicted traffic, your customer needs, your business needs, the fact that somewhere between 50% and 70% of all the staff you do manage to recruit will actually become useful operational atcos, the wider economy, the pressure on profit (as NATS are most certainly a priofit making entitiy now) and throw into the mix you are working 24-36 months ahead, a college move and the introduction of a completly new data handling system that all your current staff need training on as well and it starts to become understandable that the task is simply not as easy as saying 'anyone want to be an atco - great, sign here....'

[mts1]

Thanks for responses.

[ZOOKER]

whitelighter,
just curious, why is LL a special case? 1 HUGE VCR, 6 ATCOs, plus a supervisor and someone to work the lights. Surely the busier a unit gets, the more the positions are split. 1 R/W for landing, 1 for T/O. O.K. it's busy for 99.9% of the time, but it's not rocket science.
"NATS HR Team". Well, 4 years ago, this "team" insisted I re-applied for my own job, so I spent a fun evening ferreting in the loft looking for my 1972 GCE grades which they needed on the application form. Notwithstanding global economic mis-management, 'peak oil' and the imminent eruption of Katla, (all of which are outside NATS's control), ATC staff planning isn't rocket science, especially for a Sunday Times Top 100 Company. I don't ever remember the EGLL recruiting team visiting our unit, looking for suitable experienced bods.
As for the last paragraph, many people are employed, on large salaries, to sort this stuff out. If they can't do it, then, (like the trainee ATCOs, whose lives they control), they should be sacked. It's not rocket science.

[Sweet Potatos]

It seems to me that it's not necessarily a shortage of ATCO's but an unwillingness to take anybody on at the moment.

Most places I've spoken to are short and not recruiting. It's a great way to save cash, and the staff - like most ATCO teams I've worked in - all pull together and get the job done regardless.

[whitelighter]

just curious, why is LL a special case?

Sorry, should have made myself more clear.

LL is a special case in that it is the one unit that is permanently short (and maybe TC, dunno but we were talking airports here). Most other units are at OR

[ZOOKER]

whitelighter,
ah, thanks, that makes sense. Please don't think my first paragraph was designed to denigrate the work of the folks at 'LL, (TWR or APP). They do an absolutely amazing job which still fascinates me, even after 30 years of watching.
Interestingly, the HR director who departed earlier this year was "appointed in 1990 to set up a HR planning function". I wonder where it is?

[Deep Throat]

I know a man who is looking.

Is £45K+ for ADI and APP, Met etc a good figure in this climate?

I've been out of it for a while now so not sure what the going rate is

[BigDaddyBoxMeal]

Most other units are at OR

Really? If we're talking NATS then I know of a couple at least that aren't, and haven't been in living memory!

Outside of NATS; well they can recruit as and when, and in the last couple of years there has been a fair few job adverts out there, I assume they filled said vacancies.

[LEGAL TENDER]

lol @ "Deep Throat"

is it really ATC recruiting you are into? ;)

[Deep Throat]

Legal i think that tells us a little more about you (and your viewing interests) than me ;)

yours

W Mark Felt :)

the rumour man himself

[ZOOKER]

Gisajob,
I think employers are going for the cheapest option these days. So all the single-rated young folks fresh out of college, well, they're valuable, worth keeping, - whatever the cost. Young staff are also important to an organisation's glamourous image. and in this age of 'brand-values', image is everything. See Simon Cowell for details.
This missing, "current crop", are Lo-Co ATCOs, if you like, AND, 'malleable' too, easily converted to modern management's way of thinking.
Anyone with experience, say over 45, and top of the pay-scale, is considered a nuisance. and less receptive to modern 'management methodologies'.
Might be a few experienced folk coming into the marketplace shortly.
Keep a sharp look-out.

[Andy Mayes]

Keep a sharp look-out.

Were you giving me a Basic Service around Norwich today because the ATCO told me those very words.

As if I weren't going to be keeping a sharp lookout flying in Class G!:sad:

[ZOOKER]

Andy,
sadly, not me. I picked up the phrase from a greatly-respected approach-radar mentor 'oop north' many years ago. At the time I was a current PPL, (courtesy of NATS), and it served me well, both in the air and 'on the scope'.
Safe flying, as always, and don't ever be afraid :-
a) to turn back,
b) to tell someone on the ground if it's all going pear-shaped.
c) to visit ATC for a chat.

[RiskyFowler]

Validation rate in area is around 50% and aerodrome/app around 90%

[whitelighter]

You are confusing passing the rating with validation (which is at a unit/sector)..

Aerodrome/Approach is slightly lower than you suggest, but definitely higher than area. ADI/APS is about 80%.

As for validation %, again that is around 80% on first attempt, though some do fair better at a second unit.

[Andy Mayes]

the Unit Validation Course (UVC).


Is this the same as the Unit Training Plan (UTP)?

[Avoiding_Action]

Do people get second units these days?

[ZOOKER]

Andy,
The UVC is an integral part of the UTP. It is, (typically), about a 4 to 8 week course, usually conducted an the unit's simulator. This element has to be passed before training on live traffic can begin.

[Danscowpie]

I will allow one or two to validate their rating in the middle of next year so that they can get a step on the ladder

Well that's very kind of you. :hmm::rolleyes::ugh:

Do you actually have full SRG Approval to provide an ATC Service at Dunsfold yet? Do tell.

There are plenty of ATCOs available who could fill the job spec', it's probably more of a case that with your attitude, no one wants to work for you.:rolleyes:

[radarman]

Gisajob,

Dunsfold salary in the high 30's? Doesn't sound as though that will get much in the way of accomodation in that neck of the woods. Surrey stockbroker belt and all that. Maybe you could park a caravan on the airfield for them to live in. :E

What sort of traffic are Dunsfold expecting? Guys with ADC or APP will be wanting to get experience to further their career. If they arrive and find nothing to cut their teeth on they'll soon be off somewhere busier, and you'll have a big problem with staff turnover.

[Talkdownman]

I think 'Gisajob' would do well to find two or three very experienced and flexible retirees to cover movement demand at Dunsfold. I just happen to know at least three (whose full time 'careers' are over and are settled down not too far away) who might just be interested in a a day or two a week to clutch at professional straws and earn some dosh to spend on the grand-children..... ;)

WD, if you are reading this, feel free to PM me...

[Gisajob]

Thanks Talkdownman for your constructive help.

I agree that in this phase of the re-introduction of licenced ATC Services at Dunsfold, retired experienced ATCOs are in many ways a good flexible solution. Can you pm me with details of your colleagues who would be interested.

As the airport develops we will need more full time permanent staff but until then your solution works.

Thank you for being constructive. Thanks also to all the other contributors for salary information.

[hangten]

I understand that this.thread is about Dunsfold however, more generally I wonder if a perceived 'shortage' of ATCOs in the wider community is because of NATS restricting the courses provided to trainees?

Things changed about 8 years ago now, has it taken that long for the effects to be noticed?

[italiancars]

As per the above post.

When NATS changed the policy from making everyone do an aerodrome course before proceeding onto an approach or area radar course, there was no longer trainee ATCO's leaving the NATS system after maybe failing one of the radar courses or failing to validate at unit.

In the past non NATS units could be sure on receiving a number of CV's per annum from these trainees looking for employment, there was almost a surplus.

With the adoption of the the common core basic course, then streaming to tower for London units, tower/approach for others or area the people who tripped up in the system often left with nothing to offer other units & probably left air traffic all together.

Often these pre-basic course trainees who did leave with a tower ticket took anything they could get, got further training, but often a few years down the line moved to either a perceived bigger/better unit, or closer to thier home town. This in turn meant there was always movement within the market place.

Non-NATS units then became much more proactive at training from within thier own ranks i.e. ATSA's who prodiminatly were local based and therefore much more likely to remain loyal to the unit. With all the extra money required to fund the extra training, the hope of getting this needs no explanation.

This in turn means more stagnation within the market place as people are less likely to move unless the T&C's are very attractive with relocation allowances, rent paid for X amount of mouths to help settle & find property to buy, significant salary increase etc etc but in the present climate it's harder for units to justify these perks when being told to save money.

Viscous circle that may take some time to clear.

[Talkdownman]

Viscous circle that may take some time to clear
Yep, it's a sticky situation...

[Sweet Potatos]

Tell me about it!!

I'm feeling a little under employed given my ratings! Not stacking shelves or driving taxis ... but def under employed!