Vulcan - bone domes

[tartare]

I remember seeing a photo somewhere of what was purported to be a very early Vulcan crew, with what looked like WW2-era leather flying helmets on.
Am I mistaken? (I suspect so).
When were hard flying helmets introduced into the RAF - and does anyone know on what type?

[Fubaar]

The 1950s and into the 60s RAF hard hats were a two piece arrangement, with a soft (blue cloth) inner which contained the headset, (and looked not dissimilar to a WW2 Russian tankies' helmet), and an outer fibreglass(?) shell - which was just that, a shell with nothing else except a visor attached.

I'd be guessing that the photograph you saw might have been a crewman, probably a back seater, wearing only his 'inner'. I don't know whether there was much to be gained for the blokes down the back of V bomber wearing their hard hats most of the time, as they didn't have ejection seats, and if they were going to try (the operative word being 'try') to get out, they'd have lots of time to put the outer shell on over their cloth inners before 'egressing'.

[GGR]

Pardon the thread drift but can anyone add to this interesting topic with personal experience of parting company with one's Vulcan for real?

GGR

[Pontius Navigator]

The inner helmet was known as a G-Helmet and was common on all types. On aircraft without pressure breathing it was worn with an H-mask. Pressure breathing masks were originally the M-mask but this could not hold high pressure to the P (large face - bridge of nose to chin) and Q (medium face) were introduced.

It was originally thought that rear crew did not need the sun visor as they didn't look out (economy measure?) but by the early '60s visors all new bone domes were fitted with a visor.

We used to wear the bone dome take-off and landing and discard it as soon as we could. Later there was more acceptance of wearing it while low level flying.

Fubaar has a point which was why there was early reluctance to wearing the bone dome all the time. I think attitudes changed as the bone dome did have its uses in low level turbulence and a planned low level abandonment was not necessarily a slow process.

I was fortunate in never having to abandon an aircraft but we did a test once, Irish Sea, 500 feet 250 kt, all engines throttled to flight idle and a climb commenced. We topped at 1500 feet so there was some useful time in the event of loss of all 4-engines - say an extra 500 feet.

Of the low level crashes though I don't think they were survivable. The Shiraz crash on landing was a good example for wearing a bone dome, although I don't know if it was a factor in the survival of the rear crew.

[bingofuel]

I recall a story that the pilots only wore the inner helmet as this allowed them an extra inch headroom which aided the restricted view when landing.
No doubt an ex Vulcan driver will put me right .

I also believe that the first Britannia crews had to wear the cloth helmets as the powers that be decided they did not require commercial headsets to operate the aircraft but should wear existing military issue earphones and intercom built into the cloth helmet.

[Pontius Navigator]

Bingo, correct a la Vulcan. Similarly the Nav Radar "needed" the cloth helemet so he could operate the sun guns.

Later I got a Mk 3 helment but used to carry a G-helmet as well in case I had to work in a confined space. In practice I found I could operate the sextant while wearing the Mk 3 and it was no impediment when moving around the cockpit either.

[Rallyepilot]

I was a Vulcan AEO in the late 70s and I replaced my inner and outer helmets for a one-piece job - a Mk4a I think. The old inner helmet made my head itch and I was far from convinced that if a low level abandonment was called for I would have time to don the outer helmet before exiting the aircraft. The Mk 4a seemed to be a bit heavy at first but I soon got used to it and I definitely preferred it to the two-piece head gear that I had earlier.

[Fareastdriver]

A V force pilot would remove the outer helmet soon after take off so that he could get his sunglasses on. (and get his feet on top of the rudder bars)

[HTB]

I think one of the reasons for G/Mk 1 combination was that removal of the outer shell gave a little more headroom for the pilots so they did not have to incline neck and head inboard due to the canopy curvature (remember the initial design was for a single pilot positioned centrally and two rear crew).

Mister B

[CoffmanStarter]

Hi all ...

I believe the original Mk1 "outer" bone dome was issued without a visor but allowed for the wearing of flying goggles (the two male popper-studs at the rear of the helmet were originally designed to take elasticated webbing to keep the goggles strap in place). The picture below of a Canberra crew from the early 50's shows the Observer wearing the Mk1 "outer" without goggles and the Pilot wearing the electric hat "inner" plus goggles.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/Scan2.jpg

I believe the Mk1a "outer" was then introduced with a moulded forehead arrangement on the bone dome that allowed for the fixing of a track and visor as required. The picture below (again from the 50's) shows a Victor Bomb-Aimer with what looks like a Mk1a but with no track/visor arrangement.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/Scan1.jpg

The final picture from the Mid 60's shows Nav students in the back of a Dominie resplendent in their Mk1a's plus visors.

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/Scan.jpg

I recall that a mod was introduced to file-down the central plastic visor actuator to make it less unicornesk given a spate of cracked perspex canopies on the Chipmunk TMk 10 encountered during aerobatics or turbulence :eek:

Sorry if a bit off thread ... but thought it might be of interest !

Best regards and Happy Christmas to everyone...

Coff.

[Wander00]

CS - looks like the front of a Canberra T4 - 2 DV panels and a swing seat for the guy in the RHS

[oldmansquipper]

For all the development history of AEA (Flying Clothing) contact Dr Graham Rood at F.A.S.T (The Farnborough museum) Farnborough Airsciences Trust homepage (http://www.airsciences.org.uk/)

The Mk1a protective & G helmet combi was replaced by the 2 & 3 series (in certain aircraft) the Mk 2 had "g" sensitve visors which were a bugger to set up & the Mk 3 took forever to fit. Then came the Mk 4 (Funny old thing)

As an aside - I remember that the Mk4 `could not be used` in the Chipmunk because it had never been formally cleared!(according to MoD PE):ugh:

[Ancient Squipper]

Hello oldman

My first job at my first unit RAF Cranwell was modifing Mk 1 helmets to Mk 1a standard fitting the track and visor mechanism which involved drilling 4 holes and securing the track with self-tapping screws coated with a very sticky varnish to help prevent the screws from working loose.
Later helmets had metal nuts moulded into the helmet shell.The Mk 1 helmet did not have an adjustable harness. It came in 14 different sizes and fitting was by trial and error. The helmet being a snug fit over the cloth 'G' helmet if it was too tight the wearer could end with an excruciating headache.
Well thats what aircrew useally told me. Perhaps that was the main reason rear crew members prefered not to wear them after take off.
When tall aircrew flew in Chipmunk aircraft wearing the Mk 1a helmet the visor operating knob could touch the canopy!! there was then a modification to saw 1/2 inch off.

[India69]

" I remember that the Mk4 `could not be used` in the Chipmunk "

Oh dear ! I did, no one told me !!:confused:

[Pontius Navigator]

The Mk 1 helmet did not have an adjustable harness. It came in 14 different sizes and fitting was by trial and error. The helmet being a snug fit over the cloth 'G' helmet if it was too tight the wearer could end with an excruciating headache.
Well thats what aircrew useally told me.

However the medics told us it had to be tight if it was to work :).

It was not unknown for the new recruit to wear the helmet in bed to break it in :}

In 1965 there was a trial of a new lightweight and ventilated helmet to try and overcome V-force resistance. It was like a pudding basin or the old style motorbike helmets. It was painted white, had ventilation holes and IIRC a leather edging for the chin strap. It was very popular and assessed as useless.

One AEO selected for the trial refused to hand his back.

[tartare]

Guys - can I thank you all for contributing.
That's what I love about this site.
As an avid consumer of aviation facts and history - it's fascinating to be able to read all of this - and a privilege to be able to talk with those of you who served and flew the kit for real.
Coffman starter - thanks for those photos - it was indeed the inner cloth helmet that I mistook for a leather one.
I've often thought there'd be a fantastic feature film in the story of the V-Force.
Having visited Hendon, stood under the bomb bay of the Vulcan there and watched the old footage of the streaming take off of multiple Vulcans, it's very sobering to think what it must have like...

[HTB]

Dim memory - was it a G/Mk 1 combo that Harold Wilson was fitted with on one occasion, with the shell on back to front?

Mister B

[Tankertrashnav]

As well as for take-off/landing, bone domes were required down the back of Victor tankers during refuelling. I never had an "all in one" helmet, and was quite happy with my 2-part Mk 1a, as several hours in a cloth helmet were a lot more comfortable than in a Mk 2 or 3.

tartare - have a look at the V-Force Reunion (http://www.vforcereunion.co.uk/) website - you should find a lot to interest you there and some very good pictures on the gallery.

[oldmansquipper]

Further to the G helmet `comfort` issue, I recall an OC of the RAFs premier recce squadron saying (Jags in Germany) that `in case of war` he would revert to the G helmet from his Mk 4 as it would be easier to check 6. :ok:I don`t think IAM would have approved. :=

As for the Mk 4 not in a Chippy - Well, I guess PE were keen to fire a 9lb Chicken at it, but never got tasked......Ho Hum.;)

[oldmansquipper]

Hi Ancient - I recall all those mods - the threads were suposedly locked in with a stinking gasket sealant - The days before locktite

As a young airman on V bombers I remember the joy of before flights and laying out 10 Vulcan crews worth of kit (60 plus helmets, Life jackets etc) at 2 in the morning, making sure the SARAH (remember them?) frequencies did not conflict etc etc... all to be ready for the next days flyng starting at 6.

Also, being responsible for holding every aircrew members locker keys so we could put their flying clothing away after flight servicing, only to discover that the canned soup hoard within many of them was so large you couldn`t get the effin kit in!...

Oh, what fun we had?:{

[Spurlash2]

Dim memory - was it a G/Mk 1 combo that Harold Wilson was fitted with on one occasion, with the shell on back to front?

I seem to remember that he was pictured in the back of a Royal Navy Wessex, prior to a trip to the Isles of Scilly. Late 70's?

[CoffmanStarter]

Good to hear from you again Wander00 ... Yes ... I should have paid closer attention ... T4 probably making this a Night Check Ride ?

Best regards ...

Coff.

[Pontius Navigator]

AMTC used to use Harold Wilson's photo as an object lesson in bone dome fitting

[Ancient Squipper]

Pontius
I remember that 1/2 pudding basin or was it colander protective helmet being issued on trial to several nav/ bomb aimers at RAF Bruggen for use when flying with the Canberra B(I)6 Hornet Squadron.
I think the idea was to make it easier for the bomb aimer to gain access to tbe nose section of the aircraft when flying the LABS(bomb tossing/flinging) manoeuvre which I should imagine was quite violent with every chance of bashing his head/helmet in such a confined space.
Some of the guys kept their helmets after the trial for that purpose

Never ever saw one again after leaving Bruggen.

[Ancient Squipper]

Oldman

SARAH Search and Rescue and Homing Personal Locator Beacon (PLB) If I remember correctly, well it was nearly 50 years ago.
Chain lacing- mountains of discarded AEA (flying clothing) for after flight servicing everyone gone home but Squipper oh joy.
Just a memory now.

[Dengue_Dude]

CS - looks like the front of a Canberra T4 - 2 DV panels and a swing seat for the guy in the RHS

I've got a few hours on that swing seat - probably the most uncomfortable seat in the world. However, our one-piece bone dome was comfy :):)

Mind you the view was nice. Not many FEs got the chance to pole the T4 in trail at FL450 en route AKT while the skipper and Nav were asleep, hors de combat after the night in Rome . . .

Nav brief 'Can you see the 3 in front' . . . 'follow them'.

[Courtney Mil]

Coff,

http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af162/CoffmanStarter/Scan2.jpg


Who the hell took the picture?

[BBadanov]

Who the hell took the picture?

I would say Base Photo, from a set of steps set up on the tarmac. :bored:

[Wander00]

Either that or the guy from "Hhhancock's Half Hour" -- "Can I come in?"

[oldmansquipper]

Correct for SARAH. There were 3 separate frequencies and 5 crew members (sometimes 6 or 7 in the jump seats) - this posed an interesting challenge when trying to make 7 go into 3 to keep frequencies different.:rolleyes:

I think it (SARAH) was replaced with the early SARBE - which, when you released the blade antenna, it usually took the top of a finger off as it uncoiled....:{

[tucumseh]

contact Dr Graham Rood at F.A.S.T


One of those "civil serpents" who has done more for aviation safety than most others put together. And a gentleman to boot. Good call oldmansquipper.

[ZH875]

From "No Claims Bonus" (1961), a short RAF film about the Nuclear Deterrent:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/ZH875/Helmet2.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/ZH875/Helmet1.jpg

Both images are © Crown Copyright

[Pontius Navigator]

Ah, the Godfrey cabinet.

On civil serpents, I think there are different types.

The majority that a Serviceman sees are low level E grade with a smattering of Ds. Low wages and limited working hours and more limited authority and flexibility and you get what you pay for.

Higher level CS that are at the Ministry or HQs, often in finance and seem forever to say no more often than they say yes.

And the doers. The ones that actually do things like the estimed doctor etc who are just as frustrated with other CS as are the Servicemen themselves.

[Whopity]

Even BOAC used a variant of the G Helmet in the Comet 1
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/43823021/Comet%201.jpg

[chopper2004]

How would the Vulcan crews cope in a NBC environment with AR5 with/without AR5, out of interest?

[Pontius Navigator]

With great difficulty. Was there a facility to inflight rations?

[oldmansquipper]

Ahhhh! AR5 - or "how to practice bleeding" Wonderful piece of kit.........:mad:

However..As a shelter marshall during the cold war, I would have killed for one to replace my S6/10....

In the late 70s I came up with an idea for a `simple` method of getting uncontaminated food into the AR5 wearer. I demonstrated it to Bruggen crews at one point, and the idea went to RAFG for approval...Got as far as IAM, I believe, where it died a death....

About 10 years later the same (or a VERY similar) simple idea working on the same principles made it into baby food dispensers! Ho Hum.

[oldmansquipper]

Hmmm.. Pre flights for Vulcan crews involved toggling down the mask & inflating the PPJ as a test. Squippers (Called SEWs at the time) suitably qualified had to take the crews through the test. A lengthy business requiring full cooperation of the crew member. Only three test inflations were allowed before the crewman could not fly that day...I often wondered how many times crews who did not want to fly that day `milked` the situation? - The squippers usually got the blame though!:eek:

[ScottBouch]

Hi, perhaps this is a question for Old Man Squipper..

This is my first post on this forum, I have a flying helmet collection (x 30ish), and various other AEA items.... You can see my writing on the subject at: flightgear's posterous - Home (http://www.flightgear.posterous.com)

I display my gear each year at Newark Air Museum's CockpitFest (although I missed this one as we'd just had a baby!)

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ysvyKAfD5OM/TB_E2sykVdI/AAAAAAAAGvs/7mE0qSXkRMA/s512/IMGP0089.JPG

Some photos of most of my collection: By Clicking Here (https://picasaweb.google.com/107418813010686725145)

I got into aviation through volunteering for years on the Cranfield T5 Lightnings, XS452 and XS458.


I write, as I have a couple of questions regarding Vulcan kit:

1 - I have an AR-5 NBC hood, and a front crew Vulcan PEC that is a perfect fit the AR-5 NBC hood.

I wanted to know how many Vulcans were equipped for use of the AR-5? What era were they equipped? And did the Vulcan crews ever have to fly with them? (I recently looked round the Wellsbourne Vulcan, and the Seat portions of the PEC's were non-NBC.)

Typically would these have been worn wih a Mk3C or Mk4A helmet? Just thinking of what era's the AR-5 may have been used...

Do you have any photos of Vulcan Crews in NBC gear?

2 - I also recently bought a Vulcan rear crew PEC with Pressure Jerkin fitting. I have a Mk4 Pressure Jerkin - the Jerkin fitting seems to align quite well on Lightning, Bccaneer and Sea Vixen PEC's, but the Vulcan rear crew PEC seems a little long, as though the mask oxy hose would poke you in the chin! Was there a special Jerkin for the Vulcan rear crew?

3 - I understand the Taylor Woodhouse and Baxter Type E, and GQ parachute company Partial Pressure Helmets were used in the Vulcans in the early days, but these were replaced by pressure demand masks as it was deemed as only necessary as a "Get Me Down" precaution following a cabin de-pressurisation...

What masks were suitable for flying with the pressure jerkins? A-13, M-Type or P/Q-Type? Would the Vulcan's have been operated with all mask types over the years in conjunction with Pressure Jerkins?

Just trying to learn as much as possible about my kit and it's past...

Many thanks, Scott.

[Stitchbitch]

ScottBouch you just posted Squipper porn ;)
AR-5 on the Mk.4A? They were a pain to re-fit the day before TACEVALs.. Best dodge on exercise was to 'accidentally' lock the DI staff in the PBF airlock for a quarter of an hour whilst you 'tried' to sort out the door mechanism ;)

[Tashengurt]

AR5's were a pain in the backside in any scenario. Stinky bags of aircrew sweat and snot. Yeugh.
I upset the Di staff once when they wanted to see how long it would take us to evacuate the PBF through the airlock. Unfortunately having spent way too many hours in there I'd got the knack of hitting both buttons at the same time so everyone could swan out through the wide open doors.
(Yeah OK that seemed a lot more interesting in my head!)

[BEagle]

AR5 came long after the Vulcan had been retired.

I had to fly a Vulcan in 'normal' NBC kit once - because the DI staff had cocked up the exercise and hadn't downgraded the air raid status before we were brought to cockpit readiness. So we went to our jet in tin hats and S6 respirators; no time to change as we had to call in at RS02....

Then we were scrambled.

3 itchy hours in NBC kit over flying suit, with a conventional LSJ on top. Deep joy......:\

[Tashengurt]

AR5 came long after the Vulcan had been retired

It can't have been that long. I arrived at Leuchars in '87 and it was well in use by then. Wiki has the Vulcan as retiring in '84? Are you sure you Vulcan types weren't just too sensible to get involved in such new fangled gimp kit?

[BEagle]

I did my first AR5 course (for the F-4) in Jan 1982. By then the Vulcan was being retired, although the South Atlantic War a few months later provided a stay of execution.

But there was no point in modifying the Vulcan to be AR5 compatible, so Vulcan crews never suffered the joys of the whistling handbag....

I did another AR5 course (for the VC10K) in Sep 1990 when recalled from UAS child abuse for the first Gulf war....

Then another VC10K AR5 course in 1993 when I returned to the AAR world after completing my UAS tour when released after GW1. By then I was reasonably familiar with the wretched thing.

The worst part was 'donning and doffing', which was invariably close-paced during training. If you had time to don the wretched device, then sit quietly for 5-10 minutes, it wasn't too bad after you'd cooled down and got your breath back. But 'they' never gave us the opportunity to do that....:\

[Pontius Navigator]

2 - I also recently bought a Vulcan rear crew PEC with Pressure Jerkin fitting. No, the rear crew had the MSC, a huge block of metal called a Multi-Service Connector. Martin Baker took one look at it and said 'not on my seats' and designed the PEC. When swivel seats were fitted the connector became the SSC or swivel seat connector.

I have a Mk4 Pressure Jerkin - the Jerkin fitting seems to align quite well on Lightning, Bccaneer and Sea Vixen PEC's, but the Vulcan rear crew PEC seems a little long, as though the mask oxy hose would poke you in the chin! Was there a special Jerkin for the Vulcan rear crew? The jerkin was the same for all Vulcan crew. The connector may seem long but remember it was not used with the swivel seat.


What masks were suitable for flying with the pressure jerkins? A-13, M-Type or P/Q-Type? Would the Vulcan's have been operated with all mask types over the years in conjunction with Pressure Jerkins?
The M-series, a copy of an American mask iirc had a flat sealing strip, it didn't hold the pressure properly. The P/Q had an innovation by turning the flange inside. The M-series was mentioned but I dont know if it was used on Vulcans

[Dan Winterland]

''As an aside - I remember that the Mk4 `could not be used` in the Chipmunk because it had never been formally cleared!(according to MoD PE)'''

Not the case later. I wore a Mk4B in the Chippy - quite legally. The 4B has the independant visor lowering mechanism, useful for speccy twats like me as you only had to look thorigh two pieces of plastic if you wanted the dark visor down. However, when I later flew the Tucano, I had to trade it in for the 4A, as the 4B hadn't been tested and there was a throey that the extra mechanism could catch on some lose perspex when the MDC fired :rolleyes:

[Tashengurt]

The 4B was a terrible thing. Fiddly to fit and prone to breaking. I nearly took Fr*d Gr**dy's eye out with a screwdriver trying to fit his. He didn't notice and carried on munching his egg banjo.

[Wrathmonk]

The worst part was 'donning and doffing'

Worse than the AR5 pool drills?:(

[HTB]

Anyone familiar with the older generation of RAFG PBF will know how space limited the dressing area was - all that kit hanging up in the centre and the wooden benches around the walls. So imagine the great joy when the Taceval team announced that there would be a 4-ship donning of AR5 (aka "Cambridge hooded rapist kit") and full NBC kit; elbows and Fullers earth all over the place, much cursing and lots of sweating.

The icing on the cake was that we would get to fly (Tornado) in this sartorial ensemble - well one crew member would; no prizes for guessing which one. It was just about bearable until the transition from whistling handbag to strapping in and being fed by the aircraft system - a distinct lack of blow accompanied by instant thermal upgrade. I have never felt so drained after a sortie - wringing wet, dehydrated, just shagged out. Have to say that the wearers need some help doffing (peeling off) the kit back in the PBF.

As for the anti-drowning valve - that wasn't 100% foolproof as I discovered in the N Luff swimming/drowning pool. I will admit to a small moment of panic as the water rose inside the rubber bag - no amount of blowing, or reasurance and advice from the bloke at pool side, could stop me from ripping off the face piece

Re Vulcan and AR5 - never saw or heard of it (left V-farce in '81). But the pressure jerkin was quite comfortable - we wore it often on 27 when operating at higher altitudes chasing clouds of dust around the Pacific.

Mister B

[Pontius Navigator]

Re Vulcan and AR5 - never saw or heard of it (left V-farce in '81). But the pressure jerkin was quite comfortable - we wore it often on 27 when operating at higher altitudes chasing clouds of dust around the Pacific.

Mister B

What heights were you flying at?

The modified Mk 2s, degraded to Mk 1 standard with the Mk 17 regulator could go to 50k (not allowing for aerodynamic suck) on the P/Q mask alone.

If you had the Mk 21 then you would need the PJ above 45k and the g-pants to go above 50k.

So, you did have the Mk 21s? But if you didn't have the g-pants then it was a waste of time giving you Mk 21s and PJs.

[Wrathmonk]

The icing on the cake was that we would get to fly (Tornado) in this sartorial ensemble - well one crew member would; no prizes for guessing which one.

A certain squadron commander of a former GR1a/4a squadron, who is now a very, very senior officer, directed that twin sticker pilot Check Rides (including, I think, IRTs) were to be flown with the front seater in full AR5 as the rear seat occupant (QFI/IRE/ACO(P)) could maintain the 'safety' pilot role. Lots of sympathy was forthcoming from the navs.....:E

[HTB]

PN

We would often be above F500, when chasing the cloud up and down, the "up" bit could see F580ish.

Mk 21 as I recall; this in conjunction with the partial pressure jerkin, an inelegant but comfortable shoulder to crutch inflatable body warmer; all the usual LSJ accroutrements were incorporated and it came in a dashing range of coulours - well, grey or gray. Not to counteract g-forces, but to keep vital organs inside the chest cavity in case of rapid decompression.

G-pants were not issued, presumably because we did not pull much of it.

The N Luff chamber experience for this kit was spectacular - definitely no beans - as the initial inflation of the jerkin was quite fierce, causing arms and legs to be thrown into "starfish" configuration very briefly. Toggle down on the mask for pressure breathing until the simulated altitude was decreased to more normal regime. The mask pressure was also quite positive, and I imagine that if the decomp was a real surprise, it would take a few breaths (or non-inhaled breaths) to stabilise into the pressure breathing pattern.

Mister B

[Pontius Navigator]

HTB, aaagh!

The g-pants were not for anti-g but to give vital pressure to the lower arteries, as against g, but to counter the pressure. Remember how you looked like an over-stuffed goose. You would have looked like an overstuffed elephant.

As you say, non-inhaled, you got the inhale bit and had to forcibly exhale and then try and count aloud.

[HTB]

PN

My memory is still quite good, but I don't recall any mention of legs or arteries inflating prior to the 25k-52k in 3 seconds decompression chamber session. Not even a hint of advice to constrict blood flow by buttock clenching, lower abdomen or large leg muscle tensing . Could be I wasn't paying attention, but there was never a hint of g-pants being required for the the air sampling part of 27 Sqn's role (which was known to involve higher altitude ops - hence the differnt decomp profile).

Given the sqn's demographic dispersion, most of looked like over-stuffed geese without the aid of the jerkin - and I wouldn't dare tell the Nav and Radar leaders that they looked like elephants (even though we dislayed two on the fin) as they were bigger than me and did not suffer fools.

Mister B

[Pontius Navigator]

HTB, you remind me, I think the 52k was possible with the jerkin or, and this is worse, to give you the effect of 50k actual with aerodynamic suck.

The other thing that occurs is that you must have had, for the rear crew, a different or modified SSC as the pressure jerkin needed its own connection which was one reason why the MSC was such a pig.

[ScottBouch]

Wow, this is a busy forum! It's going to be difficult for me to respond individually, but I'll have a shot!!

I'll try and answer back to posts in this one message....

Quick Questions: What are: DI, PBF, TACEVAL...?

BEagle - you mention "Normal NBC kit", what did this consist of?

G-Pants - The Vilcan did not have a supply for this, only Oxygen (for breathing and Jerkin) and AVS (Air Ventilated Suit). Unless there are some other connections elsewhere? - EDIT, see following posts!!

Pontius Navigator - I think this is the old Vulcan / Victor rear crew Hymatic MSC PEC I you're referring to:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-uLUt4a1DlEA/UHQ5Vwc43KI/AAAAAAAAJYI/FunqUKoY-vQ/s640/IMGP5274.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-juQ0JUfbrWw/UHQ5Qwy-sKI/AAAAAAAAJYA/FYKg0ID_05Q/s640/IMGP5273.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-aITQNt4cNZM/UHQ5IubNWzI/AAAAAAAAJX0/u3FujdTFd-4/s512/IMGP5270.JPG

Above images from Cosford Air Museum.

On the rear crew PEC / SSC, one of the angled fittings is for the bail-out bottle, what is the other bayonet fitting for? Is this where G-Pants would be connected? Of course if this is do,this only applies to rear crew, where would front crew attach G-Pants? EDIT, see following posts!!

The evolution of the three rear crew PEC / SSC types used in the Vulcan / Victors are detailed here:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-dw_nyNaufco/UHRDlitHAkI/AAAAAAAAJhY/FoI2rutziCs/s576/Victor%2520Rear%2520Crew%25201.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-qiu7dTuU2F4/UHRDl89J8KI/AAAAAAAAJhc/ea9KH1V04q0/s720/Victor%2520Rear%2520Crew%25202.jpg


My Vulcan / Victor rear crew HA PEC / SSC and bail-out bottle regulator:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-oDe6JXDq5n8/UHQ--9xYC4I/AAAAAAAAJf0/S8m8WGvZ2NI/s512/20121009_105846.jpg

The Position of the Pressure Jerkin pressure connector of a Vulcan / Victor rear crew PEC compared with a Sea Vixen / Buccaneer PEC:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-gJDndbWdk78/UHQ_IKgNflI/AAAAAAAAJgM/RmM14yjjr_g/s512/20121009_105939.jpg

This illustrates what I mean when I connect the V bomber PEC (SSC) to my Mk4 Pressure Jerkin, the mask hose Mk7 bayonet connector pokes you in the chin... so my question is: did different models of Pressure Jerkin have the PEC pressure attachment in different places? EDIT, see following posts!!

Masks:

Please see below, from left to right: A-13 (based on the American MS22001), M-Type Mk1, and M-Type Mk2. The A-13 uses a pressure compensated exhalation valve (same principal as P/Q-Types), and the M-Types used a manually adjusted exhalation valve (same as the earlier J-Type mask).

All of these masks have a returned lip. After the M-Type, the N-type mask is briefly referred to in the IAM book "Into Thin Air" but very little is known on it, and it's believed to be a pre-cursor to the P/Q-Types.

The Earlier H-Type and J-type did not use a returned lip to improve face sealing. This was more of a problem on the J-Type as it was a HA pressure breathing mask, but the H-type was a constant-flow mask with no exhalation back-pressure, so less leakage problems.

The M-Types were typically used just on the Canberra with a pressure waistcoat.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-XSw0Zuvf374/UHQ_N7GWS3I/AAAAAAAAJgc/Py42a-Tj-ZA/s640/20121009_110105.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-IRFPc964K04/UHQ_IDKjsKI/AAAAAAAAJhw/OpgDAnSNGNg/s640/20121009_110057.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2vMfH-QuIH0/UHQ_RHFTF5I/AAAAAAAAJh0/mnGfMMYvjUo/s640/20121009_110126.jpg


My Vulcan FRONT crew NBC PEC:

Dated 1981 when the Vulcan was still in service - the larger diameter hose is for AVS air to ventilate the hood, and the offset smaller diameter hose is for Breathing Air / Oxygen at high pressure to a chest mounted regulator, and fed to the mask.

Note, regular oxygen hose port is blocked off.

This connects perfectly to me AR-5 with respect to hose lengths, connector types etc..

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Cf_zJmfcnHQ/UHQ-3IB-bJI/AAAAAAAAJfk/Krw8xkur9tk/s512/20121009_105747.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ZSK3EQtXIeE/UHQ-2JfOelI/AAAAAAAAJh4/UJnzNyTd7Fs/s640/20121009_105754.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-G27ufVl5jU4/UHQ-zHgCoqI/AAAAAAAAJfU/RNaKN_XDGKA/s640/20121009_105802.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-8lQqsAWIYpg/UHQ-80W95YI/AAAAAAAAJfs/MHTFE9qheyU/s640/20121009_105822.jpg


Continued in next post......

[ScottBouch]

Part 2:


Dates of 1981:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-J_xG40Bh-7s/UHQ_QSFl0QI/AAAAAAAAJh8/Tkx0wmjAjIY/s640/20121009_110225.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-JyRi7t7Wess/UHQ_XGfJPeI/AAAAAAAAJg8/DC6b42Gz6EY/s512/20121009_110251.jpg

Photos from the Wellsbourne Vulcan cockpit:

FRONT seats:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SuhUD3nyLw8/UHQ3oRczpQI/AAAAAAAAJWY/5azhf-tUfoM/s640/100_2209.JPG

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-DfNllDxhFFI/UHQ3roOHi2I/AAAAAAAAJWg/2QGudzJseNk/s512/100_2211.JPG

Mk17 Regulator on left hand side:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-F4-wA3D7MDU/UHQ3-Em5tZI/AAAAAAAAJXg/0nPqnrzDJkM/s640/100_2205.JPG

REAR seats:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-AasVMoV1ICQ/UHQ3xdbT2_I/AAAAAAAAJWo/ac09hI8u5S8/s640/100_2194.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-CtffGeytbrU/UHQ30v-FyBI/AAAAAAAAJXA/VweaRuN9mrg/s640/100_2197.JPG

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-SYG7BE7qj2g/UHQ33WnRhEI/AAAAAAAAJXI/dTjJaINTGfQ/s640/100_2198.JPG

Mk17 Regulators:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-ZI02PtM6SBM/UHQ35WyQmfI/AAAAAAAAJXY/ENTtmPNkYVY/s640/100_2221.JPG

Cheers, Scott

[ScottBouch]

EDIT:

I've just checked through my AP on PEC's again, and found the connections for G-Trousers on the Front HA PEC's! :D

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JhrcOHqKP2Y/UHVywUKk5pI/AAAAAAAAJiA/M2wCGhJk7-M/s512/Front%2520HA%2520PEC%2520with%2520G%2520Suit.jpg

Interesting to learn that the vulcan used G-Trousers to aid the effects of the pressure Jerkin! I had wondered for ages what the extra fitting on the PEC / SSC was for!

I've learnt a lot about HA clothing.from you guys through this discussion! Thanks!

So, if flying so high that you need a Jerkin and G-Trousers, what mask / helmet would you need? A-13 mask, P/Q-Type mask, or Partial Pressure Helmet?

Cheers, Scott.

[ScottBouch]

This is my Mk4 Pressure Jerkin (on the left), shown with a Sea Vixen / Buccaneer HA PEC.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-R_ihvQXiPoI/UHWndMz9FJI/AAAAAAAAJiU/cezEwal9hFg/s512/IMAG2183.jpg https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-aITQNt4cNZM/UHQ5IubNWzI/AAAAAAAAJX0/u3FujdTFd-4/s512/IMGP5270.JPG

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-i-KFzoCL4Bc/UHQ5FISDp_I/AAAAAAAAJXo/vMH4EYa0tdI/s512/IMGP5267.JPG

Comparing it to the previously mentioned one from Cosford (on the right and below) shown with the Hymatic MSC PEC, the pressure fitting is lower on the garment.. The fitting on mine is next to the SARBE pocket, and the Cosford fitting is below the pocket. This would help to explain why when I've fitted my rear crew PEC / SSC it 's mask connector sits too high, close to the chin.

I think it's safe to say that Cosford's Jerkin is definitely for a Victor or Vulcan, and mine is definitely not.

I wonder what Mk of Pressure Jerkin the Cosford one is...? Does anyone have any AP's / info on Pressure jerkins?

This illustrates that there was a difference in Jerkin types depending on which aircraft type you were in. I would have thought there would be some standardisation... hey-ho, learning every day!

Did the Valiant use similar kit?

Cheers, Scott.

[Pontius Navigator]

Scott, just to get the terminology fixed. Remember PEC is for Pilots who used Martin Baker seats and the PEC was made by Martin Baker.

The rear crew, not being pilots used the Multi-Services Connector. If you look at the MSC you will note it was made by Hymatic at Reditch. The PEC on the other hand shows MBEU presumably Martin Baker.

The oxygen connector on the PEC shows L Adams (if I got that right) as the oxygen connector was a common item for all the bayonet oxygen tubes.

[ScottBouch]

Ok, thanks, I do like to get it right where possible! Good to learn...

Yes L Adams is the company on mine too, I know the mask bayonet is called a Mk7 connector, the supply hose end may be different mk number.. I don't quite know..

Thanks again, Scott :ok:

[oldmansquipper]

Wow! - Didn`t realise how much fun could be generated by the mere mention of AR5...:O:D

[Tashengurt]

It's still a dirty word.

[ScottBouch]

I've just found the G-Suit connector for Vulcan / Victor crews that connects to the Oxygen hose of the Front Crew PEC, or the rear crew MSC! (Good to get the terminology right!)

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-YhzbFF9Bx58/UHXHE_6u9gI/AAAAAAAAJiw/rYJptqsFNKs/s490/G%2520Suit%2520Connector.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-f5jM-Wtl_Go/UHXHE5CugoI/AAAAAAAAJis/C0FivLHb1WY/s720/G%2520Suit%2520Connector%25202.jpg


Cheers, Scott.

[ScottBouch]

This photo shows my AR-5 and Vulcan front crew PEC as part of my 2011 CockpitFest display at Newark Air Museum.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-IErphgXaPnA/TgHotINVHSI/AAAAAAAAIF4/jJcMLwiG9Jc/s512/IMGP3009.JPG

Cheers, Scott.

[H Peacock]

I believe the same system was used on the Canberra PR9. There was only one oxygen pipe from the PEC that fed the pilot's mask, pressure jerkin and G- trousers. In the event of a high-altitude decompression the same over-pressure from the regulator was fed to all 3 pieces of AEA. The jerkin and trousers were there to stop the over-pressure bursting your lungs!

The slightly larger hole on the PEC was for the air ventilated suit (AVS), a wonderful piece of kit.

[ScottBouch]

On the PR-9, would that be the Mk4 seat in the nose, or the crew in "normal" positions behind? or all?

Was the PR-9 capable of higher altitudes than other Canberras?

Cheers, Scott

[HTB]

I can state categorically, having done three consecutive tours on 27 Sqn (which included several air sampling dets to Midway Island involving flights above F500), that g-pants were not supplied and therefore never worn during my time on the sqn , only the partial pressure jerkin.

Helmets - generally all crew wore G-type/Mark 1 bonedome combo with P/Q masks (wasn't the P and Q just a size indicator?).

Mister B

[Pontius Navigator]

HTB, that was corect. The cruical measurement was, IIRC, bridge of nose to chin. Even though I don't have the smallest conk I used the smaller Q mask.

Interesting what you say about the G-Helmet. It must have almost been a peer-fashion think or a refusal to supply the Mk2s.

In Cypus in the early '70s an increasing number of us acquired the Mk 2. Far more comfortable in the higher temps at low level. Initially we also carried the g-helmet so you could get your head into tight spaces such as for fuse changing and astro shots. I found astro was no problem nor were many of the other areas. I can't remember but I think I stopped carrying it in the end. I think on one trip I had to go down on the door and up to the JB343 (?) and 11P behind the nav crate. I think I had to dispense with a helmet altogether.

[ScottBouch]

According to the book 'Into Thin Air' by members of the Institute of Aviation Medicine or IAM:

The MOD had a policy of using a variety of different manufactures, so all eggs aren't in one basket. The original P mask was made by one manufacturer, and when need arose for a smaller mask, the contract was given to another manufacturer, and a new mask type allocated as the Q.


I can't recall which manufacturer was which without referring to the book.

Later variants on this mask included the V-Type, again was similar but used a green 'noise silenced' hose.

Cheers, Scott

[Tigger_Too]

Was the PR-9 capable of higher altitudes than other Canberras?

Ohh yes! Similar figures to the ones Mr. B was quoting for certain Vulcan profiles - and sometimes even a bit more!

[HTB]

PN

Re helmets: I can't recall any rear crew wearing Mk 2s, especially not on 27 where helemts were worn only for takeoff and landing (5-7 hours on a high altitude sortie would literally have been a pain in the neck - except for the nav rad who could use the R88 canera as a headrest).

Similarly for the two up front - take of and landing - otherwise they would have a tedious few hours of neck leaning inwards. I do recall that one or two wore Mk 2s, particularly the co-pilots, but it was not the norm.

Can't say I was ever offered the option of any other sort of helmet while flying Vulcans.

As an aside, I did a refresher/FJ lead-in course at Finningley, where I pitched up for the JP LL phase (why was that at the start instead of the end of the course?) with my G-type/Mk 1 ensemble (including wrong sort of tubes). The look of bewilderment and utter disbelief was a joy to behold; joining instructions? Any instructions? Nah. Just a brief call from the sqn - "when you finish the OCC course, go to Finningley...blah, blah, blah". What a way to find out you had a posting (to Chivenor) as the precursor to Tornado conversion.

I also recall that during the main nav course at Finningley we flew the LL JP (3) phase with G-type/Mk1, so was expecting the same for the JP 5.

Mister B

[Pontius Navigator]

The MOD had a policy of using a variety of different manufactures, so all eggs aren't in one basket. The original P mask was made by one manufacturer, and when need arose for a smaller mask, the contract was given to another manufacturer, and a new mask type allocated as the Q.

I suspect it was not as carefully thought out as that. More likely that a new contract was let and won by the rival company rather than it being deliberately placed.

An example of this was the early, 50s, cold weather flying gauntlets much prized by MT drivers. These were over the cuff gauntlets which differed from civilian leather gloves from having the lining sewn onto the leather so it was visible in the seams. The gloves were issued as gloves, left and gloves, right rather than a pair as they were sourced separately and the leathers were always different colours.


Later variants on this mask included the V-Type, again was similar but used a green 'noise silenced' hose.

Have you come across the 'med' masks? Initially they were made to order in a cream latex for those that suffered skin allegies from the standard masks. The proud owner had has to wear a number of different formula rubbers strapped to his arm to see which caused the least inflamation. A mask was then made to the appropriate formula.

Later a standard green med mask was introduced which was an effective one type suits most and was subjectively more comfortable than the initial black. Curiously the M-type was green:)

[Fareastdriver]

I had a Q1A Med mask. It was a different kind of black.

[ScottBouch]

Tigger_Too - Thanks, good to know there is an altitude diference between the PR-9 and other Canberras.

PN / HTB - on the subject of Mk2's.. I am aware that when they entered service they were ludicrously expensive, maybe this is why some units used the Mk1 for a while longer?

PN - Yes I have seen the cream / beige medical masks, but don't have one in my collection.. The facepiece is rather stiffer than a regular P/Q mask.

This is my Mk2A, it belonged to Len Dean, who was crewchief over the TSR2, Jaguar and Tornado prototyping at Warton / Boscombe. It may well never have flown, but used on many engine testing runs.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/--dViF6-PFLY/SR4GMPJY8VI/AAAAAAAAA_4/VwDdLxydF5M/s640/IMG_1201.JPG

Here is a Vulcan Crew with a mix of Mk1 and MK2 helmets:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-K4Qs5yuir8g/UHc0PmqGC0I/AAAAAAAAJmk/t91wUAxrUhc/s512/G2616.jpg

HTB - The JP mk3 (and Shackleton) used a constant flow / economizer oxygen system (non-demand), which needed the H-Type mask:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-O19Lzp0qnWw/UHcsCTxfrUI/AAAAAAAAJj8/B1W96Vzquhg/s720/IMAG1861.jpg

The M-Type Masks were early Pressure Breathing (non-demand) used with a pressure waistcoat (not Jerkin) on Canberras. I don't know of any other aircraft to use this setup (please let me know if there were others).

Rough evolution of Pressure / Demand Breathing masks:

(Please feel free to correct me on any inaccuracies)

J-Type - Based on the H-Type, but with manually adjustable sprung exhalation valve with aluminium knob at the front. The knob would have to be adjusted (3 settings) to provide different spring tensions on the exhalation valve, therefore providing different pressures in the mask and waistcoat to suit the altitudes.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-PuExlJAx-qo/UHctYQJdVsI/AAAAAAAAJkc/6oHW7FpJqlk/s640/photo%2520%25282%2529.JPG

M-Type Mk1 - Sealing difficulties of the previous J-Type led to a facepiece re-design, and the introduction of the returned lip. The exhalation valve is the same. Note green rubber, this one is dated 1955.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-9Oxayz5KjG8/UHcuHhv3YZI/AAAAAAAAJlA/kM5hWx-Sg6s/s512/5.JPG

M-Type Mk2 - Improved comfort and sealing again. Same exhalation valve again. Note black rubber

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-1swGkwYBoq4/UHcozrQ0OHI/AAAAAAAAJjI/8Yu2iG9FeIk/s640/IMAG1915.jpg

A-13 - The RAF started using American Pressure Demand Regulators, they bought the masks to go with them, The A-13 or MS220001 was the RAF's first Demand Oxygen Mask. The exhalation valve is a Pressure Compensated valve, a small pipe into the supply tube provides pressure to hold the valve closed instead of using a manually adjustable spring for different altitudes, making it automatic.

This is a UK variant on the American design (different microphones). Used with Pressure Jerkins and without. Known for lack of comfort, heavy, and poor visibility, they were not popular. A later variant on this mask used a "Gabb" toggle harness instead of the earlier straps as seen here:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lChVRD3qARM/UHcwPFQrFOI/AAAAAAAAJlc/bnJ2ojjpuyo/s576/21.JPG

This is one of the American Variants of this widely used mask:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-xgwCOC0pzoc/SR4HZjlh0eI/AAAAAAAABFg/YQPVeDANZ50/s640/100_5649.JPG

Another American Variant, this time on my APH-6 helmet:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-u1q7HCFGKhY/SR4INHwKm1I/AAAAAAAABJo/665J-L44YfY/s640/100_5734.JPG

N-Type - Pressure Demand oxygen mask, VERY little is known on this mask, it is mentioned in the book Into Thin Air, and it seems as though it was used for trials and pre-the P/Q. This is the only picture I can find of what I believe MAY be an N-Type mask. Worn by Roly Beaumont:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-tM8OR2oj_Wk/UHcxlEJAVjI/AAAAAAAAJmA/py_XASLmhjY/s512/ACH-566-R-P-Beamont_l.jpg
Also note the F-Type cloth flying helmet and unusual visor on his Mk1 helmet.

P / Q-Types - To replace the A-13 and M-Types in use. Pressure compensated exhalation valve working on the same principal as the A-13. These have been in use for the longest period of any of the masks, even used in Canada and Australia on American Gentex helmets! I believe the earlier black facepieces were natural rubber, and later / current Green facepiece of P/Q masks are made from silicone rubber to avoid irritation?

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-JaC7CS-JcFg/SR_wqryKiKI/AAAAAAAABkE/_wrqHBEPbBc/s576/100_5821.JPG

ADOM - Will this eventually replace all P/Q in service with the RAF?? only time will tell. There are currently a few in service.

http://www.camlockuk.com/images/adom_photo.jpg

Phew, that took some putting together! Like I say, please correct me where I'm wrong!

Cheers, Scott.

[Pontius Navigator]

We also used the H-mask on many types including Meteor, Varsity, Shackleton etc. You say it is a non-demand system. Now I thought that was the other way around.

As you breathed in an oxygen/air mix was inhaled through a bellows arrangement on the floor. If you didn't breathe it didn't flow.

With the Vulcan system there was a constant flow rate of 2mm to ensure a positive pressure through the mask. On emergency IIRC it increased to 4mm. As many crew flew with the mask dangling there was a constant escape of oxygen. It was for that reason the smoking was forbidden. A burning cigarette was quite spectacular as it would appear incandescent and burn out in a minute or so.

Also, at one time it was suspected that the air mix system might fail ON which would allow fumes into the mask if it was selected to emergency IIRC so we flew with it on 100%. The problem now was oxygen ear after prolonged use of oxygen.

I might be wrong here as it was a long time ago.

[ScottBouch]

Hey PN,

When I say constant flow, I mean the oxygen from the bottle is set to constantly flow. This was the way in WW2, but wasteful when not required, and not enough during heavy breathing (late night phone calls etc...).

SO the Economizer was invented... this device is the bellows you refer to:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-uExLfTiFBNs/UHdGQISnfGI/AAAAAAAAJm4/KPKjIx66KAU/s720/Economizer2.jpg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-rJMBPIAkkJU/UHdGR0ZnWFI/AAAAAAAAJnA/YYgjcvAAA1k/s512/Economizer.jpg

Oxygen would enter the Economizer at a "Constant Flow" from the cylinder, leaving a nice reservoir there to breathed in. Upon exhalation, the economizer will refill from that constant flow form the cylinder. Typically a Mk11 regulator may have been used between the cylinder and the economizer:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-XN2IpMNS2-E/UHdGTG1p43I/AAAAAAAAJnI/c9KriyaNgco/s512/regulator%2520mk11.jpg

The "Demand" systems did not use a local reservoir, instead, the regulator would allow a greater flow when the aircrew "demanded" it by lowering the pressure in his mask by inhaling, and not supplying oxygen when not needed.

The constant trickle flow you refer to could be the "safety pressure" referred to in AP129 (part 1, section 7, chapter 3):

"Up to 32,000 feet air is mixed with oxygen in proportions appropriate to the cabin altitude ; above 32,000 feet 100 per cent, oxygen is supplied. Between 12,000 and 40,000 feet the oxygen is delivered at a slight positive "safety pressure" (about 1 in. water)."

Check out my little blog on the subject, I've copied in a section of this AP about half way down the page: flightgear's posterous - Home (http://flightgear.posterous.com/)

I mentioned the JP3 and Shackleton as they never were upgraded to a demand system, and used H-Type masks right until they were retired! As a side note, the Air Mix was achieved with the H-Type in a perculiar way: the inspiratory valve that looks exactly like an anti-suffocation valve used on later masks, actually uses a lighter spring and is for inhaling air into the mask to mix with the oxygen! Nice and simple!

Cheers, Scott.

[MANTHRUST]

WIWOChipmunks, first flight, instructor slid the canopy forward and hit me on the bone dome. Deplaned to SE and returned with an old cloth cap and goggles, this was the summer of '81, the old cap was a bit smelly but without it, that would have been the end of a not so beautiful career before it got airborne!
I remember my first flight with the Mk IV, better than any new fangled ANR nonsense.

[ScottBouch]

MANTHRUST - not a fan of ANR? What don't you like about it?

Just trying to learn as much as I can form you guys!

[tartare]

Thread drift - but now that it's out of service - is the ceiling of the final reconnaissance Canberra variant still classified - or can it be discussed openly?
I note Wikipedia says the B6 could reach FL48.
But I'd always heard rumours they could fly much higher - FL60-70 or such?
Aware there are a lot of urban legends out there - tall tales about Canberras nearly matching U2s etc.

[threeputt]

Wrong Harry, I wore one for my second tour (44(R)) so there!

3P:ok:

[Barksdale Boy]

Yes, some did but I seem to remember it was regarded as a bit precious. Still, what the hell - happy days.

[Tankertrashnav]

I had a plotter mate on Victor tankers with a Mk 2. Felt sorry for him wearing the damn thing for up to 6 or 7 hours when the only time I had to put my outer on was for take-off, landing and during AAR.

[HTB]

3P

Yeah, but, no, but, it was my recall - and I don't go south of the river after dark; apart from a stuttering part tour on 101, I spent the rest of my time at Scampton, so wouldn't have seen your shiney helmet...:E

I'll make it clear for the non-V readers that "R" stands for "Rhodesia", not "reserve". Different brand of elephant on the sqn badge, going the same way as 27, but with big ears.

Mister B

[ScottBouch]

Hi Tartare,

Sorry for the thread hijack, just one question leads to another!

To answer your very first original question, the cloth helmets were G-Types. In the below image of two of my G-Types, the earlier ones were Blue, then later they went to Green:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-hiCyBn1FPtk/UHfZfSxlTbI/AAAAAAAAJnY/M5Vu1vvn7S8/s640/20121012_094338.jpg

...And here is one of my Mk1A's with the G-Type propped up inside it. Ignore the mask, it is an R-Type (Like an H-Type, but no air inlet valve) used in the Dominie I believe with Gabb toggle harness for Headset fitting, so wrong for the Vulcan, but you get the idea, just imagine a P/Q or earlier A-13...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-v3kQkW0RABw/SR4JypX9ZSI/AAAAAAAABRI/UvE8O5OCf_w/s640/100_5636.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ISeBAsPsVcc/SR4J3L0mHnI/AAAAAAAABRg/OvlbZt_-cWU/s640/100_5639.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-VDTBz3Eo_5k/SR4J4RURXVI/AAAAAAAABRo/zVG91YWU4f8/s640/100_5640.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1Rz8jxziicw/SR4J5kzcuJI/AAAAAAAABRw/ZlnwPFHnc60/s640/100_5641.JPG

Cheers, Scott.

[Ron Cake]

'.....Vulcan system.....constant flow. Many crews flew with their masks dangling so there was a constant escape of oxygen. It was for that reason that smoking was forbidden'

It didn't stop some crews from smoking. I recall 'smoking crews' in which, by tacit agreement, one or more would light up during the trip.

PN - none at Coningsby? Perhaps they were all too well behaved on 9,12 and 35 squadrons - or had more sense.

[ScottBouch]

I imagine a cigarette in an oxygen rich environment wouldn't last very long!

[Pontius Navigator]

Ron, my post was obviously too cryptic for you. How else would I have seen how quickly the cigarette burnt :)

I can name names now as it is the late Paddy Roache who was of course on that famous TV programme The Deliverers in 1963. On one occasion he sported a pipe and I am convinced that he had the chopped up contents of a product from the London Rubber Company. His smoking was curtailed when he joined our crew on 12 from IX as we were all non-smokers.

[t7a]

I can't believe that we've got to page 5 on Vulcan bonedomes and no-one has yet asked what mark of anorak was worn with which helmet!!

[ScottBouch]

t7a haha... true, but we all have an inner geek somewhere! :8

I've not met many other flightgear collectors (others do exist!), but don't really understand the more common hobbies of stamp collecting, celebrity gossip, Saturday shopping, etc...

Unfortunately for me (or more unfortunately for my wife) it's a subject that really has captured my interest, as it's such a massive / broad topic, you'll never learn everything..

Cheers, Scott

[Pontius Navigator]

t7a, we wore the dark blue/grey fish-tail anorak with a brown serge type liner. they came with attached trousers and the fishtail was tack-stitched to the trousers. Most of us would remove the stitching and wear them as a two-piece.

The fish tail could be fastened in side or brought up under the crotch. The trousers were held up with detachable braces. The braces could be passed through loops on the rubber buttoned long johns and , IIRC, the aircrew box shorts. At the time we had the blue/grey cloth G-helmet.

More? :}

[threeputt]

You callin me a q***r or what? Wore mine to keep out the banter of the "White noise generator" commonly called Pe** L****n. (Best AEO in the fleet). Also very useful when getting a nav ruler on the bonce from Mau***e P*******n.

3P:ok:

[threeputt]

Just keep your comments about my helmet to yourself if you don't mind.

3P;)

[Barksdale Boy]

Threeputt

I have to concede that the L****n factor trumps everything.

[t7a]

PN - I remember it well! It wasn't very stylish though, even in those days!

[t7a]

PN - Out of interest, I was copilot on Paddy's crew on 12 after it moved to Cottesmore!

[Fareastdriver]

We used to smoke on my crew on the Valiants without any problem. We had to; being on tankers we had to rid of our surplus duty free. Wheels up, fags out, was the call. especially after the hour it took from leaving ops to getting airborne. We would use one of the cups with a splash of coffee as an ash tray. At the end of the trip, to hide the evidence, we would depressurise during the approach and I would open my DV panel. Then I would hold up the cups in turn and the contents would be sucked out to be consumed by No 3 engine.

[Pontius Navigator]

The Hastings crews at Lindholme were cheesed off about smoking.
It was permitted on Transport Command aircraft and forbidden on Bomber Command aircraft.

Like FED, a coffee cup with a little water as an ash tray but no DV Panel evacuation. The Very pistol was unshipped and the cup offered up to the hole.

I think, in time, the nicotine stains down the fuselage gave the game away :)

PS, that also remins me of the document shredder on the Varsitys. Vast quantities of airways clearance chits and other miscellaneous bits we passed from the slaves in the back to the driver up front. Towards the end of the trip the Captain would crack the side window and feed each slip out in to the slip stream, obviously so names as the means of shredding the slips.

[Pontius Navigator]

PN - I remember it well! It wasn't very stylish though, even in those days!

I think there was a certain amount of nostalgia for the old style jackets. I knew many people kept them in the boot for wearing during wheel changing etc.

The new ones were certainly a vastly better as a cold weather system although many preferred the longer length of the old jackets.

[Tinribs]

I think the Mk 4 in the Chipmunk problem may have been missunderstood. As I recall if your Chippy harness was slack or you were a bit big during negative G your bonce protection rested on the canopy a bit. The Mk 4 had the same visor arrangement as the Mk 1. the plastic lump on a slidy thing. The plastic lump had a ridge at the top and in that state all the weight was resting a a small area of canopy making nice little slots in it. The Mk 1 was modded by filing bits off to make it a bit lower and wider so the weight was OK but then of course it was non standard and so could not be used elswehere.

It was a long time ago and my memory has been faulty elsewhere so humble sorrow if in error

[Wensleydale]

At the end of the trip, to hide the evidence, we would depressurise during
the approach and I would open my DV panel. Then I would hold up the cups in turn
and the contents would be sucked out to be consumed by No 3 engine.


Did any of you have the habit of sniffing bags of dessicant? If so then all becomes clear.

[Tankertrashnav]

Re smoking on Lindholme Hastings, the convention was that at top of climb the captain would announce - "gentlemen, we are now first class". This was a signal for the diehard smokers to go up the front for a quick drag (wasn't allowed down the back as I recall).

[Tinribs]

On 55 during the 60s my Captain was a very nice chap Dick Buttle who worked hard to help and improve me, essential if I was to survive

Although a totally pleasant chap he was a bit vulnerable to leg pulls. We never smoked but he was enraged one day to hear one nav saying to the other, both Peters, no thanks pete Ive just put one out

[ScottBouch]

Hi again,

Regarding the NBC PEC I have...

I believed that it's shoe (2x holes) was only used on the Vulcan, however I have learnt that later Victors used a similar shoe (early ones used a Lighting PEC).

BUT I have just found another aircraft that used a similar shoe, the German F4-Phantom, (these are not my pictures):

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-X0ztPKZj2NM/UL0dHLb6RQI/AAAAAAAAJog/70wma-2cgFY/s720/F4G%2520PEC1.jpeg

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-fYjiDL05Dbs/UL0dHqDusrI/AAAAAAAAJok/MYGKm--HfrI/s512/F4G%2520PEC.jpeg

Now, my NBC PEC will not fit this seat, as the key dowel is on the wrong side, so I don't think it's for a German F4 Phantom (and it has a UK NATO socket, the German F4-s used a US NATO Socket), but if some of these seats had the PEC on the other side, or the block the other way round (conventional UK style) then my NBC PEC could be from a Phantom...

I'll have to research the UK Phantoms PEC's.

Still to find a conclusive answer... I think PN suggested I contact MB with the part number, may be easier!

Cheers, Scott.

[hangarman]

I know its an old post, but being an anorak myself I find it hard not to reply. Ill keep it brief though , just incase no one reads it. The phantom PEC is very narrow compared to all the other PEC's I have seen. The Jaguar used a PEC very similar to the Phantom but with one less connector.
Cheeers
Gary