PPL in the North-West - Options?

[JDA2012]

Hi all - as you can see, I'm very new here, though please note that I have done a lot of reading both on this site and others to try and make that my initial questions are not too stupid :O

I am, as I suppose all complete newbies must be, looking to obtain my PPL. This will be with a view to moving onto a CPL and hopefully eventually an ATPL (the ultimate goals being A) enjoying the simple joy of flying while B) making a living comparable with my current career and C) logging jet PIC time, which would seem to obscenely expensive outside of an airline).

I'm aware of the options to do the whole shebang as an integrated course (and the debate around this), as well as various sponsorship schemes, but right now none of these appear to be open, and I don't have the money to pay for such a course up-front whilst taking 18 months off work. Spreading it out to an average of £1k/month over around 3 years is quite possible though, so whilst I await a better option that is what I intend to do.

I am at this point rather regretting not taking the opportunity to join the RAF as a pilot back in 2002 - I had LASEK at this time (given the initial -3.25 prescription and 9 years with no problems I do not suppose this is a problem for the medical) and the employer with whom I took work to fund the operation offered me a better job with much better money, so I basically sold out and am now far too old for that route. :ugh:

I've looked at doing an FAA-PPL in Florida, but this seems not to be a good choice, both generally due to procedural differences and specifically given my situation. Given that, I have looked for courses available locally (to Manchester) and have come up with the following - I am aware that I would be well advised to get my Class I medical done at LGW before spending any cash!

I would be very grateful for either general advice or specific comments on the below or other local operators:

Flight Academy (Barton) - £6400 Xmas price quoted but the whole price list is dated 2008 and full payment is required in advance, which I understand is a big red flag. Cessna 152.

Ravenair (Liverpool) - £6639 is quoted and appears to be on a Pay-As-You-Go basis, but I am aware both that this company no longer flies from Barton (adding travel costs) and that several members here have negative views. PA38.

Target Aviation - £6941 is quoted as a price from Liverpool, with Barton apparently being available as an alternative (need to enquire about pricing). This seems a good deal given that everything and the kitchen sink is thrown in, though I note that Target are not an FTO and as such I will likely be dealing with one of the other companies mentioned here anyway. PA38 / Cessna 152.

Flight Academy Barton (appears to be distinct from the other Flight Academy - different website and prices) - £7425 is quoted as an all-in price once again, though I note that this seems to include quite a lot less that the Target price. Cessna 152.

LAC Flying School (Barton) - £7628 is quoted as an all-in price (once the VAT is added to the website price of £6357) but again falls short of everything thrown in by Target. Cessna 150 / Grob 115.

Thank you both for reading this far and for any advice offered! :D

[A and C]

As has been said don't put any money up front is the golden rule (a few clubs will give a discount for your account not going into the red so leaving a few quid in your account under these conditions is worth the risk).

I have started to have some dealings with the Flight Acadamy Barton and they seem to be good people.

I think that I would be a bit reluctant to fly a Grobb 115 from a short mudy runway having found the aircraft to be a little short on power so if the LAC is your preferred option I would go for the Cessna.

[Retired Redcap]

I am strictly PPL and learned to fly with LAC on the Grob115. I enjoyed it so much that I continue to fly the Grob. There was no up front price for the course at the time I started so I paid as I flew.
If you want any more info please PM me.

[140KIAS]

Stornoway or Oban :ok:

[DavidWoodward]

Have you considered NPPL 3-axis microlight with Mainair at Barton? Ikarus C42 is a lovely aircraft to fly. Just a thought.

[southport]

I have trained at Ravenair Liverpool & they are really good. The only place i have ever trained & got propper (in private / seperate room) pre & post flight briefings & handouts for next lesson.
I have also trained at Flight Academy Blackpool same company as Barton. They are also a great bunch of lads their A/C's are much newer & better than Ravenairs but i felt the breifings from Ravenair a big plus in my training. Flight Academy offer a monthly package & Ravenair offer blocks of 10 at a reduced cost. I would follow the advice & DONT pay all up front but i personnly would buy blocks of 10 / monthly for the discount. I am also starting my MEP with Flight Academy in Janruary

[Treadstone1]

I don't think Flight Academy Barton is anything to do with Flight Academy Blackpool, same name, different company, as i said in a previous post, i think the Barton school was taken over by a couple of new guys earlier this year.

I fly with them periodically. They are a good set up, with good instructors, they operate a PA28 Diesel, and a C152 which is the aircraft i fly.... and a really frendly atmosphere..i have noticed on their website that they are advertising FI courses, so are an FTO..Give them a call.

[JDA2012]

Thanks all - looking through the replies:

- If full payment in advance is a complete no-no (and I can well see why it might be!) then that would seem to count out Flight Academy Manchester & Blackpool (based at Barton) though not the similarly-named yet (possibly) independent Flight Academy Barton. I'm going to have a ring around to confirm payment arrangements (with a futher visit to site before I give anyone a penny)

- I've no real preference right now apart from not wanting to pay more for less - hence looking for advice. Again, something a visit to Barton and a little chat should help with I think.

- Aircraft-wise, a 152 would appear preferable to a 150, but if it comes down to it the differences seem fairly limited, and I'd guess as an absolute beginner not something I'm particularly likely to notice? The PA38 appears to be held in low regard by some but characterised as a more difficult plane to handle but with certain advantages (including enouragement of a greater overall skill level, and indeed interior space - I'm dead on 6', which will appearently fit in the 152 but not necessarily comfortably) if this can be achieved. Would this be an accurate assessment, or am I just going to kill myself with it? :eek: Regards the Grob, this again seems a better overall machine, and certainly both more modern and faster than the Cessna, but again I'm not sure if there is an element of subjectivity at play, or if it's anything which is genuinely going to make a difference to me?

- I've been SCUBA diving in Oban, and it's a bloody long way (though a nice scenic drive) in the car. Certainly a good motivator to get my license as it'd be a whole lot quicker going up there in a (more or less) straight line!

- I've thought about an NPPL, but as I understand it I'd need to upgrade this to a full PPL to add an IR, night ratings etc. I know I can do this but am not sure about where it will leave me in terms of skills to take the micro + conversion route?

- I'm going to give both FTOs operating as "Flight Academy" a call and find out what, if any, relationship they have to each other and also the payment arrangements. The £6400 price is very attractive if it can be paid in installments, but I do need to find out what is included vs. Target as I am well aware that £500 can easily be swallowed up by materials, fees etc.

Ultimately making some progress towards being able to make an informed choice, thanks once again! :ok:

[Bob Stinger]

Go and have a lesson at both places, however there is more to Blackpool than flight academy, it has just been sold recently. Try Westair at Blackpool or ANT both good places.

[Airlinepilot1687]

Hi there take a look at this link to Westair at Blackpool, I have recently joined them and find them very professional and a relaxed environment to learn in. The aircraft are well maintained and they offer the C150, C152 and C172, The 152 is a lovely aircraft to learn in. They also offer a package and you benefit from buying so many hours at a time and you recieve some free landings which would help when bashing the circuit. Go up and see them, maybe have a trial lesson. Hope to see you flying soon.

Westair Flying Services Limited :: Blackpool Airport, Blackpool, Lancashire :: Flying School - Costs - Packages (http://www.westair.uk.com/flyingschool/packages.html)

[JDA2012]

Thanks - I shall add those onto the candiate list. Westair seem to have a very very good price for the package at just £5800, but obviously that is far from the whole picture! As advised, I think I'll pop in for a chat at a few of these places and get a feel for them. I also need to do some more reading on the aircraft I think...

[Beethoven]

You won't go far wrong with Westair in my opinion. A few years ago I decided to finish my licence off there and really enjoyed it. In I were to be still living back up north I would still be a member. I always enjoyed flying in the local area too (coast line, big tower, hard to get lost!) and back then Blackpool was was very friendly airfield andwell worth the trip from Manchester I used to make.

[JDA2012]

The plot thickens! My parents have bought me a 60-minute trial lesson in a Piper PA-28 at Flight Academy Blackpool for Christmas, which should give me some idea of how they are at least!

FAB Blackpool are charging £6573.96 for a full PPL course, which can be paid on a monthly basis - unsure if the trial lesson will knock anything off that, but clearly not a great deal even if it does. That is a reasonable amount, still rather more than Westair, but I will see how things go as clearly it is not all about the price. Also unsure if there is room for negotiation, as the current economy plus the winter lull would seem to make this a favourable time to do so?

FAB are using the Slingsby T67A, unless an upgrade fee is paid, with which the Aquila A210, Cessna 172R and Cirrus SR20 G3 GTS become available. I have no knowledge at all on this particular aircraft, so have some more reading to do.

[JUST-local]

I would not waste any time looking into the T67A as it has not flown for some time and looks like its being sold!

GINFO Search Results | Aircraft Register | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=detailnosummary&fullregmark=GFAA)

I would not worry about the aircraft type you do your training in, as long as it is clean and tidy and your are comfortable in it, within reason you can fly anything when you have your licence in your hand.

The PA28 is a great aircraft, enjoy your T/L :ok:

[Legal Beagle]

Just a sideways thought, have you considered Flintshire Flying School at Hawarden (Chester)? Straight down the M56 from Manchester, no problem.

Great little school, three PA-38's for training, good availability, good bunch of instructors (but I may be biased as I finished off my PPL there years ago and now instruct there part-time!)

Hawarden is an excellent airfield to train at. No messing about with zone transits, straight into the local flying area immediately on leaving the ATZ. The opening hours are being extended too in the new year which will help. Have a look at the website for details.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

I have no direct relevant experience to add to this thread, as I did my PPL with LAC at barton in 1978. However, a few generic pointers:

Distance to the school is important. Stay local. Long drives mean lots of wasted petrol when WX is iffy. If your school is just down the road, you will be able to take advantage of WX windows. If distant, you will drive miles in hope of flying only to get dissapointed. You will soon get peed off with that. THIS IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYTHING ELSE unless you really like wasting time and fuel driving!

C150 is a better aeroplane than C152 because it has 40 flap. But this is not important at this stage.

PA38 is a nice trainer. Wider cockpit. Not at all difficult to fly, but handles better than the usual alternatives (but is still a spamcan handling-wise). They are getting old now and might run out of hours before major wing mod due. This is unlikely to be a problem with a big fleet.

Grob is underpowered (I checked out on one of Barton's, flew it solo, then the other, back in the '80s. They are the each as bad as the other). And Barton only has 2 and no-one else has any. If it goes tech (or you want to change school), you will have to change type. They look good, though, But don't be deceived. They don't fly good. Stick to 150/152/PA38.

So, to summise; Cessnas and Pipers OK (for training - you wouldn't want to fly them post PPL for fun). Driving distance to field IS vitally important. Don't pay up front. Avoid unusual types like Grobs.

It's amazing that the PPL aeroplane types have not changed since I was doing it back in 1978. My instinct, therefore, would be to go along to Chris Copple at Mainair at Barton and sample some new technology. That's the future!

[NYCSavage]

Good morning all, I would like to clear up a few rumours about Flight Academy.

Flight Academy was sold to 3 different owners. Flight Academy Barton, Flight Academy Wolverhampton, and the one I bought, Flight Academy Blackpool.

Although the company is now called Blackpool Flight School Limited, we still trade as Flight Academy Blackpool as it is a strong name at Blackpool Airport. It also reduced costs of creating new signage etc

The school is still operating from Hangar 8 with the only change being the Slingsby isn't airworthy and was sold to another school on the airport. I just haven't had time to update the website yet.

I noticed JDA2012 mentioning a trial lesson bought in a PA-28. We don't operate trial lessons in a PA-28 so I would like to help clear up the mixup. I would like to speak to you regarding our packages as it seems your information is outdated.

At Flight Academy Blackpool, we have 2 Aquila A210's that are a year old, 2 Cirrus SR20's about the same age, 2 Cessna 152's and a Cessna 172. We also have a Cessna 152 Aerobat for use until a new aircraft that has just been ordered is delivered in the new year.

I wholeheartedly agree with not purchasing upfront, its not good for anyone. The student is risking £6,500 if the business goes under, the school could operate at a loss if the lessons take a long time and the prices increase (fuel, insurance etc)

We offer package bundles that include discounts and we also accept PAYG students.

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings and hope to see you flying in the new year.

[Treadstone1]

NYC

Your a brave man.......But good luck

[JDA2012]

Hi NYC, thanks for dropping in. All of the info I have relating to the trial lesson (including the PA-28 data) is taken directly from the experience voucher pack supplied, which mentions FAB by name, whilst the rest of the training info (including the aircraft types and prices) is taken from the FAB website itself and is still present at the time of writing. If this info is incorrect, I'd suggest these items in particular need tidying up as it's only going to confuse people, especially new potential students. Appreciate you probably have other concerns at the minute if you've just taken the centre on though - will send you a PM to discuss in detail, thanks for the assistance and hope to see you soon.

[Grob Queen]

Grob is underpowered (I checked out on one of Barton's, flew it solo, then the other, back in the '80s. They are the each as bad as the other). And Barton only has 2 and no-one else has any. If it goes tech (or you want to change school), you will have to change type. They look good, though, But don't be deceived. They don't fly good. Stick to 150/152/PA38.

.....Avoid unusual types like Grobs.


As someone who is learning in Grobs I am truly in the pro-Grob camp and I must stick up for the type. Yes, they are slow, (and ours aren't aeros licenced) but as a student, are you really wanting to be whizzing around the sky?! Yes, they are slow in the climb, but that doesn't matter. 90kts cruise is absolutely fine, they respond, they can be thrown around to 60 degree AOB quite nicely and in an emergency break too. They are simple to understand for those of us who are not technically minded...If they go u/s, no worries....the Grob factory is still in operation and spare parts can be bought....

Are Grobs THAT unusual???!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

GQ, enjoy your Grob; they are fine aeroplanes once off the ground and if you are not concerned by what I said about them (in particular that there are only two, and both at one school), then enjoy!

[Retired Redcap]

I agree with Grob Queen. I love the Grob. I learned to fly on in in 2007-8 and also fly the PA28 and C150. Apart from getting it off the ground from Barton's short and soggy strip it is delightful to fly. Having said that I have never had a problem getting airbourne it just takes it's time.

[Grob Queen]

I have never had a problem getting airborne in a Grob either (well, not one which was the fault of the aircraft...;) ). Taking off from our grass strip is interesting, but that I am sure is just due to my inexperience (and preference for our tarmac runways)...

There are at least four Grob 115As in circulation as we have two and there are the two at Barton!!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Where are the non-Barton ones?

[rufus.t.firefly]

Used to be some north of the border I think - Dundee ?? , not 100% certain though :ok:

[A and C]

None of the aircraft above will be a problem to a normal and well taught student pilot.

Aircraft reliabilty is going to be a big issue as your training is likely to be disrupted if the aircraft goes "Tech". Look for a club that has aircraft that look well cared for, if the underside looks like it has not been cleaned since the Bay city rollers topped the charts and the inside smells like the home for some sort of pond life you can bet the aircraft is maintaned to the minimum standard.

As said above none of the aircraft are going to be a problem for a PPL to fly but the PA28 will burn about 36lt/hr and the C152 about 23lt/hr, with Avgas at about £2/lt this is going to favour the C150/C152 on cost grounds.

The C152 is from a maintenance point of view a very well sorted C150 and so should be more reliable but maintenance is key to this.

The Grob is a nice aircraft but is not to be confused with the RAF trainer of the same name, that is a carbon aircraft with a 180 hp engine, the 115A is a glass aircraft with 115 hp engine and not a good short field performer, a disadvantage when flying out of a short grass airfield.

Most of the new Rotax powered aircraft that get rave reviews on these pages (with the exeption of the Tecnam) are not man enough for the training enviroment and will be falling apart with very few hours in the log book.

The final problem with the more unusual aircraft is parts supply, you can get almost anything for Cessna or Piper from parts companies stock in the UK, with other aircraft the parts are likely to be on the shelf at the factory and take longer to arrive.

So to keep the costs of your training down you should be looking for the nearest club to your home that has C150/C152 or PA28's that get a good standard of maintenance, Im not saying that you wont get a good deal with another type of aircraft but by sticking to the usual aircraft you will load the dice in your favour.

[Grob Queen]

Where are the non-Barton ones?

SSG - I am learning on our 115As at RAF Cranwell

None of the aircraft above will be a problem to a normal and well taught student pilot.

Quite!! No issues with the Grob for me...its got low wings, engine, stick, flaps etc etc...good enough for me :ok:


The Grob is a nice aircraft but is not to be confused with the RAF trainer of the same name, that is a carbon aircraft with a 180 hp engine, the 115A is a glass aircraft with 115 hp engine and not a good short field performer, a disadvantage when flying out of a short grass airfield.

The 115A and the 115E (Tutor) are very similar however - even if the hp differs. I am using the Tutor training manual and Tutor tekky notes because of the similarity.

As I said, as far as I am concerned, the only problem with using a grass strip is pilot experience...the Grob has more than enough legs to use grass...its just inexperienced pilots getting the hang of more power on a grass take off run! (spoken with an aforementioned inexperienced pilot viewpoint). True, spare parts need to come from Germany, but is that such a bad thing??

As we seem to be discussing the technical abilities of the Grob 115A in TakeOff, I have the FRCs in front of me:

No wind t/o distance - 2310ft (2775ft grass)
No wind ground run - 1380ft (1850ft grass)

Fuel used in taxi and take off 5 litres
Fuel used in climb to 5,000ft 5 litres

Cruise - max weight, leaned, 2600rpm 103kts, 25litres fuel used per hour.

Ok so these figures add weight to the "Not good on grass strip t/o" argument; And of course yes, I love the Firefly, that is in a different class! But from what I have seen and experienced, the 115A is a good, reliable trainer.

[NYCSavage]

Treadman is that brave or stupid? lol

[A and C]

My point about spare parts is one of avalability, I can order most things for a Piper or Cessns and expect them to turn up the next day by standard post.

I have no doubt that Grob could supply most of the parts for their aircraft in the same short order but this would require the use of FEDEX, UPS, DHL or the like, that can turn a 5 Euro part into a 50 Euro part if you want it overnight. This is more of a problem with European light aircraft as they tend to use Metric Nuts & Bolts Etc that is non standard from an Aerospace point of view.

So the result of this is the Grob operator is more likely to have an aircraft on the ground awaiting parts than the operator of an American aircraft Or having to charge the rate that takes into account the use of overnight frieght companys.

[vkw91]

Personally, I would be careful with Ravenair from personal experience, but I think everyone can list flying schools they like and don't. Its down to personal preference and what you want from your flying school.

Maybe go around a few and sit down with them have have a brew! Hanging around for a hour, you generally get a better feel for each of the schools and see how you fit in! You don't want to be at a school where you don't feel comfortable.

I would definitely look at Hawarden as like Legal Beagle said, its not too far away from liverpool, and once your up, your into the local area which is perfect for training as there is lots of free space. Flintshire flying school are a great bunch as well.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

SSG - I am learning on our 115As at RAF Cranwell

Ah, so the 2 Grobs at EGCB are indeed the only 2 north west ones?

[Grob Queen]

Ah, so the 2 Grobs at EGCB are indeed the only 2 north west ones?

SSG- Very possibly, but being based in Lincolnshire, I wouldn't know about the NW...my flying activities have not taken me further than Lincs and Notts at the moment :hmm:

My point about spare parts is one of avalability......

I have no doubt that Grob could supply most of the parts for their aircraft in the same short order but this would require the use of FEDEX, UPS, DHL or the like, that can turn a 5 Euro part into a 50 Euro part if you want it overnight. This is more of a problem with European light aircraft as they tend to use Metric Nuts & Bolts Etc that is non standard from an Aerospace point of view.

So the result of this is the Grob operator is more likely to have an aircraft on the ground awaiting parts than the operator of an American aircraft Or having to charge the rate that takes into account the use of overnight frieght companys.

Hmmm, I see what you mean A and C, and that could be an issue - I guess it depends how long you are willing to have an aircraft u/s in the Hangar for, how many aircraft the club/school has, and how many students the organisation has too.

[igarratt]

If your thinking of going commercial then the one thing everyone that has your interests in mind should say is get down to gatwick and make sure you can get you class 1, if you cant get this then it;s a non starter.

As others have said before you pick a school visit them, see how well they look after you, are they just telling what you want to hear ? do they show you around their planes ? do they make time for you, after all it's a lot of money.

Can also ask if they do anything specific for you considering your thinking of going commercial, CPL standards are much higher than PPL if you get into best practises from the start will make your CPL easier.

While there are data protection points to think about, ask the school to let you talk to a current student see what they say.

I've flown a grob at Barton, great ac, loved the seat and controls set up the most and it's very sensitive to control inputs. However the C152 is the most common training ac in the world and the PA38 is the most popular low wing trainer. There is a reason :) I teach on Pa38 and it makes life so much easier when an a/c is designed to be a trainer.
But go with what you like, its good to like the ac you fly :)

For sure the best addvice others have written is no money up front, if it's full upfront payment of all of the PPL I'd run, fast ! but pay as you fly is near always going to be more expensive than a package, this is mostly down to the second bigest cost being landing / circuit fees and these are usualy always all included in a pack, but check the small print some schools sneek small print in of 'only at base airfield' :=

When it comes to packs I've still to find one that does include all the costs and is upfront about the extras, having a bug bare on hidden costs, students paying over the odds and no real totaly impartial place to go to get advice from was how Target Aviation was born.

If you need any info on options be it ppl cpl or atpl, costs or how to attack it then drop me a mail to customers.first AT targetaviation.co.uk I also have some factsheets and pathway sheets that you may find helpful.

Regards
Oh and maybe looking like a good time to think about commercial know of 4 instructors that have been offered airline jobs in the last 2 months..... at last :ok:

[josh7]

Hi guys, just a quick video of a trial lesson from liverpool with merseyflight (minus the ground briefings) this is just a quick video i did on my break, i realise the quality isnt fantastic but hopefully gives a taster of what it entails. have a look anyway!

Merseyflight Trial Lesson - YouTube

[Viola]

How likely is it that you will become an ATPL or is it just a general aim?

If you want to gain an ATPL and become a Commercial pilot above everything else I would try to find out what airlines would require from you. As others have said, talk to other pilots with the same aim or with commercial experience; can you get a Class 1 medical? Does it make a difference how quickly you went solo, gained your PPL, how fast can you gain P1 hours? Should you train where there is ATC?

If it is just a general aim then convenience and enjoying the club/type of aircraft you fly has more importance.