New UK based charter company?

[Encorebaby]

Has anyone else heard about this new start up AOC to be based in the southeast? I heard about it whilst on a split duty the other day, apparently they have solid financial city backing and are talking about taking the charter market by storm. Initially talking about operating small Citations, possibly Bravo/XL. They seem to have a good idea about how to succeed where others have struggled. Should be good for the jobs market if they pull it off, there must be loads of Citation drivers out there! Not sure about base location yet, please pm if anyone has any more details

[BravoBoy]

Havn't heard anything but would like to find out more if it's legit. Got over 3000 hrs on Citations and fancy change from flying a principal about that doesn't appreciate me. Also be nice to move back to Blighty.

Lets hope its a goer.:ok:

[Pace]

EncoreBaby

SouthEast!!! Put two and two together? Expanded Southend with new fast raillink into London..... Somewhere someone might like to take advantage of the crumbs a big shark has created?
Has to be Southend on the Old Kudos 24/7 side!

Pace

[MisterT]

I can add a bit more clarity to what has been mentioned in the earlier posts.

Some City Boys have the finance to purchase three Bravos. They are also looking at the possibility of purchasing a Hawker.

They are looking to base the company in Southend / Biggin Hill.

Salary is undecided, but they are looking at offering good benefits such as profit share, roster, medical , 4* Hotels etc.

They will shorlty be be recruiting in Flight International for type rated guys.

So if you fed up with your boss and typed give it a shot:ok:

Best of luck

MisterT

[learjet50]

Taking the charter market by storm // Solid financial backing

In my 35 + years in the business I have heard this all before

Best of luck to them they will need it as there is a lot of competion out there which will eat them very quickly
We shall wait and see when the ducks arrive

[PPRuNe Towers]

Oh dear, two new posters writing from the same computer plumping and primping the market.

Were they trained by the famed easyJet hopefuls? I think we should be told.

Rob

[Phil Brockwell]

A startup offering profit share??? No-one will be retiring on that methinks.

Good idea though, there is a distinct lack of supply in the Bravo / CJ2 and XLS market at the moment, and I'm sure everyone will be flocking to use Southend once it has a fast train link. (Sarcasm!!)

No doubt the massive surge of charter demand during the Olyimpics is somewhere in the business plan too.

Oh, and as a bit of advice, if you are posting fake "articles of ineterest" one use the Ipad on 3g, the other use the laptop - hey presto, we no longer know that you are both sitting next to each other!!

Damn I'm too young to be this Synical!

[G-SPOTs Lost]

If there is a bit more capacity coming to the Market then that's great.

If these two jokers are in charge of marketing then the "city boys" would be better off putting the cash in the Halfax.

Schoolboy errors from the outset doesn't bode well for the future...

Numptys

[MisterT]

A few of the previous posters have hit the nail on the head.

Next year is going to be a big year for General Aviation especially with the London Olympics and having a plane based at an Olympic airport such as Southend or Biggin will prove to be valuable asset!*

The guys have done their research and see a gap in the market which I believe will work.

Some might say they are trying to reinvent the wheel, they believe it is because the wheel hasn't even been invented!

They see in this market, especially at the lower end that some companies are not well oiled machines ie passegeners get an inferior service, staff are treated badly! They wish to change this and good luck to them!

School boy error or honest explanation. I spoke with Encore Baby yesterday in the hotel we were sharing whilst he was on split duty - I think he's now back in the UK!

Encore was mistaken about the AoC *- this operator will piggy back on the back of another well known AoC and are in negotiations with two operators! I think once this summer is over they plan to get their own AoC - either way I think a lot of recruitment is on the way !:ok:

[Red Four]

Probably nor related but who knows?Jet Me There | London Southend Airport (http://jetmethere.biz/article/22)

Seems fairly typical of these sort of 'new entrants'. All singing, all dancing, promise the world - but believable? Think most of us have seen this sort of thing before, and know how long they are likely to be around.
Contact details look like a small unit in Westcliff (ie nothing to do with the airport)

[Encorebaby]

Hi prunetowers,

I got home late last night from a long duty and wasn't surprised to see, this morning, that my rumour has already been slated. *Its a real shame that your cynicism has got in the way of a good story! *:8

misterT and I were sharing the same hotel wifi ip address, this will show as the same computer, I think, we both posted from lap tops sat in the hotel lobby. *I said in my original post, I was on a split duty, killing time.:ugh:

I first heard the info from misterT, yesterday, not some days ago, i lied, and we both agreed that pprune was the best place to put it, though I don't know where she heard it from, she seemed to be in the know. *;)

We used new aliases for the obvious reason of anonymity from previous posts as neither of us wished to be identified. *The news is what it is, a rumour. *If true it would certainly be good news all round, bah humbug! :p

[Daifly]

Please tell the boys that they cannot and will not make money from this venture; they will lose money on the purchase of the aircraft and the market rates for them on charter will no produce a return that will either give them the free flying they probably want from it, or a profit.

In a year when they haven't and they are demanding to know why it's not worked as they were told it would, please send me £1,500 for the consultancy services I have just provided.

Many thanks.

I beat Brockwell in the cynical stakes.

[LGW Vulture]

Would someone kindly let me know who is financing these purchases and I will give them a 20% discount on my services now for future work when it all goes tits up and I have to mop up the ensuing mess.

Perhaps it will be called Gullible's Travel? :ugh:

[cldrvr]

Here we go again. Some smooth talker conned a few City boys out of a few million with some great spreadsheets and a glossy Powerpoint.

Do these City boys never learn, you can't make money at the bottom end of the market. The margins are razor thin and there are plenty of unscrupulous operators that will undercut you.

You are focusing on a saturated market segment where only price matters, even the few properly run companies that exist here will beat you on price, service and trading history.

I'll give it a year. There has never been a single startup funded by City boys that has made it.

Did you tell your City boys that they are competing with operators that cut so many corners that they can get a Bravo out for a price that won't cover your finance cost? Did you tell your City boys that your are competing with operators that don't care if the plane makes any money as long as it is turned over to offset the cost to the ultimate owner? Did you tell your City boys that there are Hawker operators that have written down their assets over a decade ago and can operate for a fraction of your cost? Did you tell you City boys that on a short leg there are plenty of other options that are a heck of a lot cheaper to the punter you are aiming for?

No? Didn't think so.

[LAS1997]

They must be completely mad. The market remains depressed; too much capacity still; razor thin profit margins.

[MisterT]

I hear what you cynics are saying, and to be quite honest I had the same concerns, heard it all before etc etc.

Thing is, I wouldn't have bothered posting this rumour if I didn't think it was a real goer! From what I can gather the city boys already back a very successful Geneva based operation in a different market and have based their business model on their current success.

They have identified a real Olympic potential. They seem to have number of clients already lined up to cover their fixed costs. They have fuel already hedged for a given pre arranged and signed flying schedule and the planes are on lease from the bank following a recent collapsed operator.

The reason for the good employee terms is that the cheif pilot (a good friend of mine) believes in looking after his best assets) .

I don't really know much else about the company yet but am happy to help where poss, I do know that the company will be looking for a good loyal hard working team to build.

Personally I am a Hawker pilot based in Europe so if this does pull off it would be great to get back to Blighty especially if they get the Hawker!:ok:

[BigNumber]

Why such negativity from our readers? Surely any start up is good news for the obvious pprune audience.

Is this a Sarf End thing; 247 always get a slagging too; even though they have fed and watered quite a few families in these dark hours.

Good luck to the start up; I wish you all every possible success.

BN

[Daifly]

Go to Southend casino and stick it all on red.

The Olympics will generate a significant amount of inbound traffic, but I can't help personally thinking that the beneficiaries are going to be any operator outside of the UK - day return, night stop for the spectators - not a lot of one ways in and out for a UK operator.

Harking back to my days of Euro 98 - lots of outbound traffic on day returns, Commonwealth Games 2002 - lots of inbound traffic on day returns. Scenario 98 - good for UK operators; Scenario 2002 - not so good for UK operators.

Can be incredibly enthusiastic and "uncynical" if you want me to be, but there was a thread on here of companies that have gone bang in the recession recently - look at what they were almost all operating. Then see if the trip to Southend Casino isn't less risky...

[STN Ramp Rat]

having attended a couple of seminars on the olympics operating corporate is not going to be that easy ......

Home (http://olympics.airspacesafety.com/)

http://www.acl-uk.org/UserFiles/File/slot%20leaflet.pdf

there are a couple of Grass strips that are having the same slot restrictions as Heathrow applied for the duration of the olympics! another development is that if the slot is not recorded on the flightplan or you have missed your slot then the flightplan will be rejected by Eurocontrol.

[x933]

What happens after the Olympics, upon which your business plan appears to hang?

[Ice Man]

Daifly,

Well said Tidy! How to make a fortune in aviation.....................!

[No RYR for me]

They seem to have a good idea about how to succeed where others have struggled.

Excellent news! That is what we all wanted to learn in the last X years... I think I know the answer they will come up with: Get utilisation up! :D

[flynowpaylater]

Like most others on here, I simply can't see where the gap is??

There's less demand and more supply. Surely the clever money would be in reducing supply or increasing the demand?? There are already some very good suppliers out there, and all struggling to make money.

I guess the profit share thing is the way to go....at least they know the overheads will be very low!

[Daifly]

http://s8.postimage.org/r2v3pkcfp/avinode.jpg

If your business plan includes anything based on demand and lack of availability in the market - think again....

[pabely]

Slots at SEN and BQH will be an issue. Might have missed the boat already....
Signature say they have secured access with the local SEN FBO? (Airport itself) and are Jet Avaition going to give business away at BQH?

[Encorebaby]

I was just wondering if it might be possible that a new start up company may just have considered the present market conditions when they put their business plan together.

Just because the sharks already in the pit are eating each other chasing an ever decreasing piece of meat doesn't mean to say that a new entrant, say, a bigger shark can not simply move and and take all!

It appears from what I have heard and read that this new company has been founded as a subsidiary of a much larger and successful company. If it were my venture and knowing the competion and the market, I would have already soaked up as many slots as possible without anyone being aware of who I am. A company who has not named itself nor begun operations has all to gain from sitting back and enjoying as much anonymity as possible till they enter the show.

Possible plan: large plane operator see a small gap in the Market for a quick profit but don't want to stick around long because it isn't their normal ops.

They use someone else's AOC to accommodate the plane of choice.

They have already established contracts for ops and fuel.

They have been offered cheap planes from a repo bank who just want a return.

They have slots and handling already sorted out.

All they need to do is literally start flying on day one of Olympics and finish once the job is done.

They could just enter the Market, do the job and then retreat (or not if they choose)

These City boys may also be smart gamblers!

[pabely]

So will the yet to be seen recruitment advert in Flight International say "enter the Market, do the job and then retreat" :eek:

[Phil Brockwell]

Just typed a 4 line post - but deleted it, it's just not worth the effort!

PB

[No RYR for me]

They have been offered cheap planes from a repo bank who just want a return.


First flaw in the plan. You are competing against mainly privately owned aircraft with owners who give nothing about a return... they just want cashflow to cover their running cost of the operation.. :{

[stuckgear]

They have been offered cheap planes from a repo bank who just want a return.


There's no such thing as a cheap plane. Banks want to recover their debt in the asset they dont give them away. Cheap aircraft are cheap for a reason engines are coming due, checks are due, outstanding AD's and SB's, then when this mysterious, 'hoovering up' of this olympics generated charter business (which incidentally as pointed out will be inbound - so if you have return trips you will have two dead heads to eat) is done the aircraft will still be a debt that the operation will have to carry.



These City boys may also be smart gamblers!


And equally they may well be dumb asses. There are established operators in, not only the country, but also the region, that have been at this game for decades, know their business and markets inside out and could educate a couple of city gamblers will to play with OPM in the harsh realities.

But he who pays the piper calls the tune. Is it their shirts they will be losing if/when it goes tango uniform ?

Best of luck.

[steveb15]

This cannot be for real.
May not be the biggest load of rubbish ever posted on here but it is close!

[AussieAndy]

Go on PB... I'm sure I speak for many when I say we have been awaiting your reply... give us your 4 lines of comical wisdom, go on!!

[dudleymoore]

Tell your city boys to keep their hands in their pockets, they will join a long line of failed and failing charter comopanies based in the south east, one certian outfit in the south has been quietly getting rid of long servung and experienced crew after loosng half a dozen contracts this year alone..

[suitcaseman]

Whilst I am normally the eternal optimist and encourage new start ups,......... to enter the European short range biz jet market when the Eurozone is close to possible collapse (Olympics or not) is just insanity.

(They use someone else's AOC to accommodate the plane of choice.) This comes at a cost with complications.

(They have already established contracts for ops and fuel.) Cold hard cash talks and promises of things to come hold no value.

(They have been offered cheap planes from a repo bank who just want a return) Already covered.

(They have slots and handling already sorted out.) Would a company with no AOC or aircraft (and probably not even a registered company) be issued slots?

(All they need to do is literally start flying on day one of Olympics and finish once the job is done.) What happened to crew training, CAA observations and the rest of the very expensive processes involved with a new start up or AOC variation if piggy-backing?

(They could just enter the Market, do the job and then retreat (or not if they choose) In the highly competitive market that currently exists, the experienced operators will already have made their plans as well so I doubt some new guy is going to come in and make millions in a month and retreat. To believe this defies all logic.

(These City boys may also be smart gamblers!) or not in this case I'm afraid.

[pabely]

We said suitcaseman, we all await to be corrected but maybe the big players have got it all wrong.........knowing about things at LTN, I doubt they will get a lookin.

As a side note, with the R.A.F basing a few fighters at NHT during Olympics, I wonder if that will limit their capacity planning?

[potatowings]

Can I smell something funny? Is there a bull in my living room?

Another operator offering charter from their aircraft. How can that wheel be re-invented? Ambeo, Blink and the likes came in and tried with two different strategies.

And besides, a solid city backing, even the city doesn't have a solid city backing, it's backed by my taxes.

[stuckgear]

knowing about things at LTN, I doubt they will get a lookin.



and what it costs to friggin park at luton !

[pabely]

As most will be inbound, it is drop 'em off and go, even to park at Cranfield, Oxford aka and pick up later...

[MisterT]

From reading the previous posts it's seems this new outfit is worrying a few individuals.

What you have to remember their present business model is not to take the crumbs of the market that the small operators in GA are fighting over now.

They have signed CONTRACTS in place!

They realised the fact they need to know what they are doing and when in order to arrange slots.

The fuel price has been hedged and all they need to do now is finalise the AOC /piggy back issues and hire the staff.

The problem with GA in the UK that it has a small minded attitude and they do not believe the wheel can be reinvented, when in fact it can - all you need to do is open your eyes !

[No RYR for me]

it's seems this new outfit is worrying a few individuals.

Haha I think you misread what we are saying because worry was not really what we were trying to convey. But hey: good luck with you super idea and keep us posted! :D

ps give the guys at Ambeo, Sky Taxi, Blink, Bikkair etc a call as they are also very experienced in "their present business model is not to take the crumbs of the market that the small operators in GA are fighting over now." :hmm:

[Private jet]

I reckon they think opening a new shop next door to Tesco's would be a good idea as well.

[Spunky Monkey]

Ha ha Add me into the list of people currently mopping their beer of the key board.
People aren’t worried, except for your sanity and those city boys.
Probably the same clowns who backed Northern Rock and RBS et al.

I fly those small aircraft and also have a small amount of knowledge about running a business. How much profit do you think there really is in a charter?
Or will salaries and the bills be paid at the “End of The Month”?

How much fuel do they think they will be buying to make hedging worthwhile? Cash flow would be a better option.
Or perhaps they are just going to take deposits and “F...Off?”

I am available for interview...I haven’t had a good laugh since my last contract!

[stuckgear]

They have signed CONTRACTS in place!



bwahahahhahahahah !

ok so they have signed contracts to provide aircraft charter and they dont even have an AoC or in fact any aircraft or crew, or even ahem an office.

worried? nope. not in that sector anymore, just words of wisdom, having been senior management in the company that at the time had the worlds larget fleet of full time charter aircraft (all owned, none managed) and with our own AoC and a maintenance facility.

yep if you and your city boys want to educate people that have been in the business a while how to 'reinvent the wheel', then please, let me put some popcorn on first buddy.

[talkpedlar]

Maybe time to own-up, Mr T and Encore-Baby? This crusty ol'-timer has read some BS over the years but yours takes the biscuit..what a load of contrived b:mad:x!

Playstation broken?

I! have! never! met! a! Hawker! driver! who! used! exclamation! marks! so! inappropriately!

God Save Us..

[No RYR for me]

Hi Mr T err Encore Baby, I did not see/hear anything at EBACE this year and am very worried about the great plans announced on Pprunne so was interested to hear what is happening... Any updates? :oh: