how is airspeed reduced if no speed control instructions from controller?

[mxwbuaa]

hye, when descending from crusing level , how is airspeed reduced if no speed control instructions from controller? is KIAS or throttle level kept constant during descending?

[Trim Stab]

We balance rate of descent and throttle position to stay about 2-3knots below the overspeed alarm.

[Kelly Hopper]

2-3 knots? Pah! Why so slow? You could easily go 1-2 knots faster!

[Trim Stab]

2-3 knots? Pah! Why so slow? You could easily go 1-2 knots faster!


Yeah, I know that's pretty girls-blouse wimpy, but on the C525s there is no "barber pole" to warn if the buzzer is about to go off - it just blares suddenly and wakes the boss up!

[I.R.PIRATE]

Climb .80 , cruise .80 and descend at .80 , start reducing speed at about 12500 ft to ensure 250 knots at 10,000.

With a 2.7 degree descent angle this works out perfectly.

[mutt]

Climb .80 Isnt this a bit fast? We do .75:O

12500 ft to ensure 250 knots at 10,000. What do you understand in this part of the world by the words, "high speed approved", or "maintain high speed"?

Mutt

[G-SPOTs Lost]

2.7

Why so shallow?

3.7 is more of an airliner profile airbi and similar

[dirk85]

In our type (C56X) a descent with 2000/2500 fpm and maximum speed usually works fine.
At about 9000 ft we reduce to 250 (260 knots plane limitation at 8000 ft), with passengers on board we aim to be at 200 knots at about glide interception, and where passenger comfort is not a priority (ferry?) and if requested by ATC to maintain high speed we can maintain 250 until 6/7 nm on final.
Not personally a big fan of this super high speed approach but can be done.

[ksjc]

@ mutt. "Isnt this a bit fast? We do .75"

Some if us descend at .83/320KIAS.

[mutt]

Yea but your wing is 16 feet longer :):) and your max speed is 4 KIAS faster :)

Mutt

[MungoP]

I quite like the sound of the o/spd alarm on the LR35.. :O

[I.R.PIRATE]

Mutt, when leaving Jeddah, I like to do it as fast as possible :)

I use .75 when climbing between JED-RUH or else we tend to get held down in the mid thirties.

When given cleared high speed, I transition to 300 until asked to slow down or until it becomes too bumpy, or we need to slow down, so as to be 220 at LOC intercept, unless instructed otherwise. ATC has thanked us a few times for flying this profile so I guess we are ok??

Have a feeling I am about to get schooled here, but by you, no problem :ok:

Why 2.7% - we have found that it allows a nearly idle thrust descent without the use of speed brakes. Our principle doesn't like speed brakes being used. It just works for hitting numbers and speeds without being forced to work too hard. Plus I find that when we set anything over a three degree slope we never actually reach calculated top of descent before ATC descends us.

Cheers

[His dudeness]

I quite like the sound of the o/spd alarm on the LR35..

How do you know? You´re not supposed to hear it! :} :) :ok:

[Gulfstreamaviator]

many of the FMS procedures do not work very well in G550 at 3.0.....not quite enough margin before the POWER anuc, and loss of auto speed looms.....set 2.7....

true on G450 too, often set at 2.5 there, same logic...

certainly not FLC at TOD, and 4-5000 fpm downards......

glf

[what next]

How do you know? You´re not supposed to hear it! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif :) http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif I was taught flying jets by a guy (maybe the same one who taught you) who used to pull the circuit breaker of the overspeed warning and fly flat out until past the outer maker... Probably can't do that in a Lear because it will go supersonic :) But really: If you want to fly slowly, take a Cessna 152.

[His dudeness]

What next, probably or rather most likely the same little dude... :ok:

I remember the face of the predecessor of said guy as a DO when they flew an approach into your home base with said CB tripped and loads of thunderstorms and turbulence around. He really looked troubled...

[Pace]

How do you know? You´re not supposed to hear it!

Every time you do a rotary test :E and a few times when your not being attentive ;) Well in my bird anyway! Overspeed? dont massage my birds ego too much :E Slowtation!!! but in reality she easely busts it as do they all in the lower levels.

Pace

[Dream Land]

But really: If you want to fly slowly, take a Cessna 152 I totally agree, unfortunately I'm usually flying with some 500 hour wonder that likes to climb at GD and for the slightest turbulence will try to reduce speed to .76. :ugh::ugh:, impossible to teach them anything about jet operations, they already know it all.:mad:

[mattman]

In this part the world (somewhere near the ALPS) a well thought out and planned descent goes down the tubes when your told to descend 200nm before TOD.
Then it's fifty frequency changes of "slow down", "speed up", slow down", "Speed up" to a final cap of "if you dont speed up down the Glide I am going to ban you from our airspace", trying to softy place your noise around the bell triggers.

Just before planting your rubber to the asphalt the principle wants to know why the scenic tour of rocks and snow was conducted at anal clenching (his words) height (he prefers some couple of thousands more, seeing he invested in something that can fly some 30000ft higher).


(story was given a slightly humours effect to those who want to start bashing)

[hawker750]

Quote
Probably can't do that in a Lear because it will go supersonic

Yes on 35's 25,s 24,s it would go supersonic about 5 seconds after the wings came off. In the late 60's early 70's a lot of lears crashed in the USA and very soon the investigators would go straght to the remains o the CB panel to see if the overspeed and mach CB's had ben pulled. Invariably yes. The straight wing lears had a nasty habit of tucking at about M .85, that is why the CAA reduced the MMO a tad.
Your Kapitan CB puller must have been ex Luftwaffer so he would have had permission to be a prat

[Tmbstory]

Some of the posts about speed control on descent show a lack of reality, in VIP Flying.. The DCM (don,t come Monday or any other Monday) termination cheque, would be at your last known contact address, pronto.

Tmb.

.

[His dudeness]

tmbstory, which posts do you refer to?

Your Kapitan CB puller must have been ex Luftwaffer so he would have had permission to be a prat

Luftwaffe pilots are prats? Let me have a guess, RAF pilots aren`t ?


But no, he wasn´t Luftwaffe, in fact he studied engineering (Dipl-Ing in 'Maschinenbau') and then went on to distribute his fathers wealth in aviation until being broke.
Then he continued to work as a pilot, was involved in the expansion and growth of a local little airline to an LH-Regional partner and then went on to head an air taxi company that now operates something like 8 executive aircraft. He retired but still flies a Jet for a private owner.

He certainly is a character, he is actually a very knowledgeable pilot with tendencies that are....well, not good (such as the overspeed CB thing).

[what next]

He certainly is a character, he is actually a very knowledgeable pilot with tendencies that are....well, not good (such as the overspeed CB thing). Don't we all have our little shortcomings? But to add to his praise: He recently got his little corporate one-man-show IS-BAO certified all on his own. Something that takes others with quite an organisation behind them a couple of years and several attempts.

And regarding the overspeed CB pulling:
1. Current production Citations don't have this CB any more. They don't even come with the nice little button "Audio to headphones only" that spares the passengers the annoying warning sounds. So no more temptation of overspeeding on approach in modern Citations... not even for our mentor - at least not with passengers aboard ;)

2. We were not talking about overspeeding during cruise (which certainly is a dangerous thing in any jet) but during approach. I doubt, that any straight-wing Citation has engines powerful enough to bring it close to dangerous Mach numbers in dense air. The things are much too draggy. You will burn out the engines long before you break the wings.

3. The low-level overspeed warning of the Citations is not related to aerodynamic or structural considerations, but to the fact, that birdstrike testing of the windscreens was only performed up to 260KT (so I was told during my typerating). This is why the barberpole jumps to 260KT when descending through FL80. Both these figure are totally arbitrary and don't have much practical meaning (do birds really stop flying above FL80? And if they do, would't it be much more dangerous to break the screen in thin air than in thick air?), especially in clouds and at night when there are no large birds around (in my part of the world).

[Tmbstory]

His Dudeness:

Not yours, I quite agree with your comments on pulling CB,s etc. Thrill seekers are not part of Corporate Aviation or VIP Flying. The people who build the aeroplanes put limitations on their aircraft for a good reason.

The idea of a different standard of flying just because you have passengers or no passengers on board, means you are better off in another Industry. The Pilot in Command is the most important person in the aircraft, If He or She has the safest, most comfortable and pleasant trip between A and B, then everybody behind , also has the same.

Some Corporate Jets in my day would not allow the throttles to be placed in Flight Idle at high level because of a lack of bleed air available to control and stop the cabin altitude from climbing. Flight Idle could be selected at a lower altitude.


Flying requires good sound common sense and nothing less.

Regards

Tmb

[His dudeness]

Our CJ2+ has a "Headphones Only" button and it's a 2011 model, so unless this has been incorporated in the last few months you are incorrect! IIRC, the warnings still will come thru the speakers as well, even if Headphones only is selected. Again, IIRC, thats the case for all FAR/JAR23 Citations.

Since I haven`t flown the CJ2+ for more than a year I stand to be corrected...

[Max Payne]

My preferred flight profile:

Climb: 300 (250 < 10.000) / .80
Cruise: .84
Descent: .84 / 350 (250 < 10.000)