First Officers and taxying

[Tee Emm]

There are operators who are so hung up on strict interpretation of SOP (areas of responsibilities etc) that there are first officers with thousands of hours on type who have never cut the engines at the end of a trip. With regards to allowing F/O's to taxi the aircraft even on straight taxiways using rudder pedal steering, there are some culture deficient captains who are pedantic fools. Unfortunately the F/O has to grit his teeth and wear it.

[Capt Claret]

None of the 717's I operate have tillers on the RHS and only limited steering through the rudder pedals.

[seat 0A]

Claret, I suppose that's a choice when ordering the aircraft.
I remember when my outfit got some used 737's from an airline they took over, there were no RH tillers in them. Quite a nuisance.

What happens in case of the Captains incapacitation?
The FO moves to the LH seat for landing? Seems to add a lot of extra workload for the poor sod.....

[reivilo]

First of all you don't need a tiller to safely land an aircraft and stop it on the runway...
In my airline we don't have tillers on the RH seat, however when the FO is the flying pilot he will land the aircraft and slow it down to taxi speed. At that moment the captain will take over control and use the tiller to exit the runway and taxi to the gate.
So if the capt. would be incapacitated the FO can safely land the aircraft but he will have to either stop the aircraft on the runway and request for towing equipment, or if the runway has a high speed exit, he could be able to use the rudder nosewheel steering and exit the runway.

@Superpilot In my opinion this policy where the FO never slows the aircraft to taxi speed is not very safe. Is this in the SOPs or is this a habit of the captains to say 'I have control' too early?

[Superpilot]

Hi,

The company has no official SOP regarding when the captain should take over control but I've never had control below 100 kts (90 at the absolute latest) and the few times I've had to use the brakes, I've been asked not too.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Super pilot,

What's the big deal? I used to enjoy the view whilst being chauffeured around the airport.

To stop the aircraft is simple. You put your feet on the pedals and apply the relevant amount of pressure. You will, sooner or later, come to a stop.

Have you asked the captains you fly with why they don't think you're competent enough to drive in a straight line below a hundred knots?

[fireflybob]

It's not a big deal until you come to upgrading to command!

Unless you have schooled yourself sensibly, you suddenly find you have the additional workload of navigating safely around complex airports (some of them which have yellow centerlines which are barely visible, looking for an inadequately illuminated stand being dazzled by the lights on the terminal building at night also looking for a marshaller who is not equipped with illuminated wands!) - whilst doing this you are monitoring the RT for any changes and also keeping a lookout for the odd errant vehicle or even a/c!

Ok, lots depends on good SOPs and having an FO that doesn't bury himself in the chart or the checklist, not to mention the odd one I have had that starts loading the FMC for the return sector before you've arrived at the gate.

And who is responsible if you biff anything?

Also if you haven't taxied the a/c ever before (ok you night have done the odd bit in the sim), you also have to learn how to taxi safely and smoothly.

Good game!

[Pull what]

FOs do the difficult job-navigating and reading the chart which prevents a runway incursion-thats more important that handling the tiller!

[fireflybob]

FOs do the difficult job-navigating and reading the chart which prevents a runway incursion-thats more important that handling the tiller!

Shouldn't both crew members confirm the taxi routing?

Of course, if in doubt stop and/or ask for progressive taxi instructions.

[Pull what]

Shouldn't both crew members confirm the taxi routing? But of course BT-didnt you used to have three-one to read the checklist as well?

[fireflybob]

But of course BT-didnt you used to have three-one to read the checklist as well?

Not since I started flying 2 crew aircraft circa 30 years ago but yes flight engineers were very useful!

[no sponsor]

My current airline allows us F/Os to taxi the aircraft, so we effectively swap roles of PF and PNF for each sector. Previously, in my previous airline, there was no tiller on the F/O side, and the captain would normally take control once the aircraft was slowing down after landing. There was no specific time/speed to hand over. But we always started/shut down the engines. Some operators don't even let their F/Os do that. I don't really understand why not.

To be honest with you, it took me about 2 taxi experiences to get the hang of it. It's no big deal at all. I still get the odd input from the captains on techniques and speeds, but its always welcome. :)

[xxxpil]

Hi
Where I work FO can't taxi by airline policy, I think it's not a question of trust but insurance companies put restrictions on some details of the operation when negotiating contracts. You are forgetting one thing also, that when parking at the gate the visual aids are made for the LHS. I'm Cpt and I dont have nothing against FO taxiing

[Max Angle]

Let 'em taxi? Sweet Jesus, they will be letting them fly the thing soon.

[Gulfstreamaviator]

re post 14....who / what is a CPT is this CaPTain or CoPoloT


glf

[Sygyzy]

1300+ posts and you haven't figure this out yet. This a Pilot's forum what the hell do you think it's discussing-knitting!!!!!!!!!!

S

[JChallenger]

Why does the FO need to taxi anyways? I could care less if I am taxing or not...

[RTO]

People moaning about not getting to taxi should note that its actually not that much fun, besides you get to do it all day when you get an upgrade. I've never heard this described as an issue before, and in my outfit I'm pretty sure none of the FO's are that desperate to taxi, regardless if they have 500 or 5000 hours on type. One tiller works absolutely brilliant, and the incap argument is not valid, you can manoeuvre the aircraft with diff brakes if you really have to.

[grounded27]

Really, first opportunity I had to taxi was in a 742, an AMT maybe 20 years old. Set up the panel for the qualified guy, jumped in the right seat and did a fine job. Maybe pilots should have experience towing an aircraft of this size first as I knew where my gear was and completely confident in what I was doing. Smooth breaking was a quick learn, not any different and actually easier than driving a car for my first time.

[Cosmo Beauregard]

Every operator I've worked for has no limitations on F/O's landing the aircraft up to and including bringing the aircraft to a stop or at least down to taxi speed. However, once the aircraft has left the runway and entered the taxiway/ramp areas control of the aircraft is dictated to the left seat. Not because the aircraft can't be taxied from the right seat, but rather statistics prove ground operations are hugely more dangerous than flight operations. Way too much going on in a limited space.
So I understand the Taxiing part, but not allowing F/O's to make landings? Something isn't right about that scenario.

[fireflybob]

My first flying job was as a Second Officer on the B707.

If we were flying the sector we did all the taxiing - cannot recall there ever being a problem, even with stand entry guidance systems the Captain would say "bit to the left/right etc"

[Superpilot]

Well thanks for the replies everyone.