JetGo Australia???? [Archive]

THE ORACLE

16th Jan 2012, 22:23

Grr,

You have made a really good statement and asked a very fair question concerning the limited success of 50 seat RJ's.

The CRJ 100,200 and EMB 145, 140 and 135 had huge sales success in the 1990's due to the very cheap price of avtur at that time, coupled with a few nasty turboprop incidents including the terrible ATR fatal accident at Roselawn Indiana, which, with the aid of clever RJ marketing caused american passengers in particular to shy away from RPT turboprops for the next few years. Since then the regional aircraft market has adjusted accordingly.

As the price of avtur exponentially increased and particularly post 9/11, airline accountants retired their 50 seat RJ's in favour of similarly sized turbos and larger 70 to 90 seat RJ's in order to make, rather than lose money.

Unlike RPT, FIFO operations are essentially 'closed charters', where the customer hires the entire aircraft regardless of the number of passengers carried.

I think the challenge for JetGo will be to secure RJ airframe lease rates that are cheap enough to offset the very high fuel burn (compared with the same sized turboprop) and secure continuing FIFO work that sits in the 400 to 600 nautical mile 'sweet spot'. Over this distance the 50 seat RJ costs can become competitive with the turpoprop (depending on finance arrangements, etc), due to the shorter sector cycle time afforded by the jet. I am also assuming here, that JetGo will pay at least market rates for their skilled labour force (pilots and engineers particularly).

Over distances shorter than 400 nautical miles, however, any jet loses the price/time advantage over a turbo and over distances longer than 600 nautical miles larger RJ's, such as the Fokker 70LR's recently acquired by Alliance, gain the pricing advantage when it comes to quoting for the job.

Although the passenger ride quality may be better above the weather in an RJ rather than through the weather in a turboprop, FIFO management accountants will always focus on the price cost/benefits of service due to the high frequency of FIFO crew change cycles. Any 'ride quality' improvements afforded by jet operations probably wouldn't be gven too much consideration by a mining company on short sector operations of less than 400 nautical miles, unless the job quote was comparable with turboprop prices.

Although Embraer made over 800 airframes in the EMB 145,140,135 RJ series and many of these are 'mothballed' around the world, lessors drive hard bargains on lease prices in order to sustain the residual values of their investment stock and I don't think JetGo will find too many real airframe 'bargains'. They might negotiate a spares package, simulator time and an initial deferral of some lease rental payments to get to start up, but in order to competitively 'buy' business other operators have historically traded at a consistent loss during the start up period and ultimately become insolvent when the inevitable full lease rental agreement start to 'bite'. The most recent high profile failure in this regard was Sky Air World.

So despite JetGo's website advertising "Jet Comfort at Turboprop Economies" and assuming as a speculative business, they don't have the millions in excess cash to buy their airframes and thus save all leasing costs, I doubt JetGo's ability to otherwise deliver on their advertising slogan.

However, as stated in the chinese proverb "be careful of what you wish for........"

The Oracle

Skystar320

21st Jan 2012, 04:05

Considering that a dry lease of a EMB-145 at around US$65k a month and an hourly maintenance fee of around US$400 they would have to find some lucrative contracts!

For that price you could easily get a ATR42 / FK100 / BAe 146

megle2

21st Jan 2012, 21:53

Web site states that they "comply" with BARS
As against "we are BARS accredited" - BIG difference
They do not get a mention on the BARS website

Looks to me that the leopard hasn't changed it's spots

THE ORACLE

21st Jan 2012, 22:14

Southeast Queensland Aviation's ******** is now showing some photos of an EMB 135 being prepared in the U.S. and reported as destined for JetGo.

In the EMB 145 RJ series the 135 has the worst economics of the lot due to 13 fewer seats than the 145. This will be a very interesting experiment.

The Oracle

http://southeastqldaviation.********.com/2012/01/jetgo-australia.html

CaptCaveman

21st Jan 2012, 23:26

Hi all,

If you can't get The Oracle's link, or BPA's earlier identical link, to work, try inserting the following letters for the asterisks.
1/ b
2/ l
3/ o
4/ g
5/ s
6/ p
7/ o
8/ t, apparently that word is not allowed on Pprune.

megle2,

I had a look at the FSI BARS website after your 2nd post on this thread; could you provide the list of approved aviation companies? The only companies that I can find on the website are the mining companies that use the system and the approved audit companies; I'd be interested in a list of the approved companies, as I can't find a list of BARS approved companies.

The Caveman

bizzybody

21st Jan 2012, 23:39

Wow an all white unmarked aircraft with an unknown rego in a hanger on the other side of the globe. Yep must be theirs.

flying-spike

22nd Jan 2012, 00:31

Copythisnumberdown

22nd Jan 2012, 03:08

My point is that in order to comply with BARS or be BARS accredited you need to have an AOC and all the trappings that go with it. The most basic requirement is regulatory approval and they don't have that.

I think you are missing the point, I know for a fact they are having a SMS written system which complies with the BARS audit. Its not a CASA requirement, its a requirement that most of the resource sector are asking of their suppliers and vendors in the interest of safety. 'Jetgo are simply implementing a SMS system into their operation early which makes perfect sense for any new operator as they have a clear slate and a system to follow from the beginning. Like Ascend Charlie say's, These guys are doing it all right from the start. They aren't required to have a SMS system but they are choosing to do it and i can tell you from experience, it isn't cheap.. I can also tell you this company is real and by all intents will be operational in the next few months! They have crew at FSI , and have crossed most of the "T'S.... I know of several operators have been turned away from clients because of non BARS compliance... It wont be long before its 'standard' to have these in place....Expensive for the operator at $20K a year but, good for people such as myself that are in the SMS industry!:ok:

morno

22nd Jan 2012, 03:16

I think you are missing the point though. According to the other post, you need CASA approval before you can even get a BARS Audit.

**** reply, none of that made sense.

morno

flying-spike

22nd Jan 2012, 05:36

You don't have to be a clairvoyant to see that an SMS will be required for all passenger carrying operations and smartest time to integrate an SMS into your organisation is while you build the organisation, you don't have to be a business genius to figure that out.
It does surprise me that they will be forking out $20K/year for what should be integrated from the start.
Is that what you are charging them for your product? Your last sentence really does point to your where your allegiance lies.
"Expensive for the operator at $20K a year but, good for people such as myself that are in the SMS industry!"
If they are your customer I would love to see the reaction on the CFO's face when he reads your post. Spruking about your little financial windfall won't see much return business. By the sound of it you haven't been in the SMS industry very long and probably won't be about much longer.

megle2

22nd Jan 2012, 07:32

An SMS is only a small part of BARS and thus won't be the saviour to promptly gain accreditation

You had better rethink your priorities

Note : The list of BARS accredited fixed wing operators is quite limited at this stage when you take out the big guns ie Q QL J V ect

Cactusjack

24th Jan 2012, 00:10

I know for a fact they are having a SMS written system which complies with the BARS audit.
Who cares. BARS is NOT the standard. SMS has to comply with the requirements outlined in 82.3 and 82.5. ICAO mandated SMS and CASA as the 'state' has implemented a set of rules and regs under SMS. BARS is merely a 'tool' that the resource sector get a chubby over as they think BARS is the solution to all things safety, which is absolute bollocks.
If their SMS is based solely on BARS then you can expect CASA to 'snicker in the corner and hold back the laughter' when they reveiw your SMS. BARS is a product marketed and created by some clever Consultants who are making big dollars flogging it as 'the pinacle of aviation safety' to the resource sector whose primary business is just that - resources, not aviation! I have assisted two organisations implement SMS and each of those organisations has a stronger SMS that far outweighs BARS. Also those two organisations receive regular scheduled CASA AOC audits and HART Aviation audits as well as numerous other external audits, and neither need BARS to make them safer or of a higher standard.

Its not a CASA requirement, its a requirement that most of the resource sector are asking of their suppliers and vendors in the interest of safety. Which is not a requirement - BARS or SMS? Just want to clarify that point.

'Jetgo are simply implementing a SMS system into their operation early which makes perfect sense for any new operator as they have a clear slate and a system to follow from the beginning. Like Ascend Charlie say's, These guys are doing it all right from the start. They aren't required to have a SMS system but they are choosing to do it and i can tell you from experience, it isn't cheap.. Oh dear. Not required to have an SMS you say? Obviosuly they aren't a HICAP or LOCAP operator because if they are then you are in deep sh#t as it is a requiremnt under 82.3 and 82.5 for them to have an SMS. The red flag is already at half mast on this mob!!

I can also tell you this company is real and by all intents will be operational in the next few months! They have crew at FSI , and have crossed most of the "T'S.... I know of several operators have been turned away from clients because of non BARS compliance... It wont be long before its 'standard' to have these in place....Expensive for the operator at $20K a year but, good for people such as myself that are in the SMS industry!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif 20k you reckon? Some consultant is bleeding you dry my friend. If you understood the principles and elements of a SMS you would realise it will not cost you a massive amount of the green stuff.
SMS is not an 'add on' to your company's safety structure, it is interwoven and the foundation of your safety structure, it is a living, breathing process, not some manual or 'add on'.

If you have been hoodwinked into setting up your company structure based upon BARS then you are doomed. Google ICAO and CASA as a starting point for SMS information as you obviously need some assistance. Otherwise I can set it up for you for 10k and still be home for dinner!!

flying-spike

24th Jan 2012, 10:05

Had a look at their website and it is full of promise. No aircraft, No Pilots, No AOC, everything is promised.

Copythisnumberdown

25th Jan 2012, 00:04

Had a look at their website and it is full of promise. No aircraft, No Pilots, No AOC, everything is promised

And apparently Flying-Spike has no idea. So why be so negative and down on a company that's going to employ people in our own aviation industry. Get your facts straight, there are people working all over the east and west coast on the JGA project with manuals, maintenance approvals etc etc. And pilots, so far Flight Safety have trained 4 crew for JGA. Yeah they don't have it now, but they will. And i bet your one of the first to put in a resume.... :=

flying-spike

25th Jan 2012, 01:51

Do you want to put some of your $20k on that? Or will it be an IOU?
My money would be on Jet Gone within 2 years.

Cactusjack

25th Jan 2012, 01:56

I too looked at the Website, it was about as in-depth as their SMS !!

flying-spike

25th Jan 2012, 02:35

4 pilots already trained and BARS compliant. What does BARS say about experience on type?

Cactusjack

25th Jan 2012, 03:05

4 pilots already trained and BARS compliant. What does BARS say about experience on type?
Wow! Did some underground coal miners train the pilots? Perhaps there is a specially built BARS SIM?
Perhaps 'BARS is the new black' ?

flying-spike

25th Jan 2012, 03:12

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Cactusjack

25th Jan 2012, 03:15

Is Linkedin BARS accredited? That might be the issue!

flying-spike

25th Jan 2012, 03:25

Did a search and found 3:
Comedian
Realestate agent
Loss prevention agent

All skills that he may need in coming months

flying-spike

25th Jan 2012, 04:22

Rather than flogging compliance to an external audit as the pinnacle of achievement, any half decent consultant in the "SMS Industry" would be helping their customer develop an effective internal audit process. If you can do that external audits are a doddle and you will be more likely to be compliant all of the time.
That is the goal and delivering the means to achieve it is the work of a real industry professional not bragging about flogging a bolt-on SMS to his client.

Copythisnumberdown

25th Jan 2012, 06:37

The 20K I was referring to is the money the operator, or the mining sector client has to fork out to have a third party audit them..... I was not referring to 'me' benefiting or receiving the fee. Quite to the contrary, as you say, as the consultant to the client we simply work as an agent to have their 'house in order' in prep for future audits..... What JG is referring to I believe in their website is that when they are operational, they will operate and comply with industry standards.... Perhaps it isn't worded the best..... Still, they deserve some positive support off this forum! :ok:

flying-spike

25th Jan 2012, 06:52

Quote:Expensive for the operator at $20K a year but, good for people such as myself that are in the SMS industry!

Do you want to rethink your last post or is the mining company now the operator ?
"we simply work as an agent to have their 'house in order' in prep for future audits....."

You still don't get it do you. The operator is required to"have their house in order" 100% of the time and not just brush the dust off the manuals for external audits. The operator cannot rely on a third party to manage their compliance. Such an arrangement would not meet the requirements of the act for a suitable organisaional structure.

Honestly, I fear for the operator if that is the quality of your advice.

BPA

27th Jan 2012, 09:56

Jet ready to go

Owen Jacques | 27th January 2012

THE Coast will become a $3 million base for new commuter charter airline JetGo Australia as it prepares to begin fly-in, fly-out routes by late March.

After a year of negotiation, the company has announced it will build a maintenance hangar at Sunshine Coast Airport.

It follows revelations earlier this month that Skytrans would fly workers from Marcoola to Queensland mines owned by Rio Tinto.

However, emerging airline JetGo has been chartered on behalf of at least one Sunshine Coast mining services firm.

"Essentially we are operating a fly-in, fly-out service from Sydney, Brisbane and the Sunshine Coast, " a spokesman said but he declined to name clients on the grounds of commercial confidentiality.

He said the Coast was a top choice because the cost of ground lease for hangar construction in Brisbane was more than $250,000 a year. Access would also be easier with fewer aircrafts demanding access to the tarmac.

JetGo will be the first Coast commuter airline to use jets in the under 50 seat market, matching the commuting time of those who drove to Brisbane to work.

"Typically, our competitor's aircraft are turbo prop - from Brisbane to Emerald takes about one hour 40 minutes in a typical Dash-8. Our flights are approximately 50 minutes," the spokesman said.

The 37-seat Embraer 135LR jets could begin flying twice a week by late March, following final regulatory approval from the Civil Aviation Safety Authority. "A lot of the companies (using JetGo) will pick up workers in Brisbane, go via the Sunshine Coast then fly to Moranbah," he said.

This high-speed travel would create "a new world" for Coast workers, according to economic development councillor Lew Brennan.

"It's an opportunity for us to break into new markets and new business," he said.

He credited airport general manager Peter Pallot with a "tremendous amount of hard work".

"I would also like to congratulate the company that has stepped up and committed to the Coast," Cr Brennan said.

megle2

28th Jan 2012, 02:17

That puts the Dash to Emerald with a block average of 220kts and the jet at 450kts

THE ORACLE

28th Jan 2012, 02:22

"Typically, our competitor's aircraft are turbo prop - from Brisbane to Emerald takes about one hour 40 minutes in a typical Dash-8. Our flights are approximately 50 minutes," the spokesman said.

The typical Dash 8 referred to by the spokesman is probably a SkyTrans DHC-8-100. The old 100 models TAS at 245-255 in typical Queensland ISA+ conditions. Other FIFO competitor operators, however, fly faster turbos and make the BNE-EML trip a lot quicker.

Certified high speed cruise in an EMB 135/140/145 is 444 KTAS. This isn't a speed you would fly around at if you wanted to make, rather than lose money. A more realistic cruise speed for this aircraft is M0.72 (around 425 KTAS) and at that speed, 50 minutes chock to chock BNE-EML is very optimistic.

Either way the fuel burn on a 37-50 seat RJ is prohibitive on a 50 minute sector and unless the RJ airframe is owned outright by 'JetGo' eventually turbo price competitiveness will see off such competition.

The Oracle

Mach E Avelli

28th Jan 2012, 03:05

From my logbook for the last three flights I did BNE-EMD-BNE in the ERJ-145, the block times were respectively 2.5, 2.7 and 2.6 hours, so one hour 18 minutes average one way, not 50 minutes. Sure, there would be ATC delays in that lot because we returned to BNE at peak hour, so those times equate to about a 280 knot block speed. I recall the aeroplane was only good for a cruise TAS around 375 knots and there were a bunch of low altitude speed restrictions which killed any chance of high speed all the way to the outer marker.
The 135 should be quicker but no way it would be 75 knots faster than a 145. It will certainly climb and cruise (but not descend) 100 knots faster than an older Dash 8 but over that sector length it wouldn't amount to anywhere near the time-saving they are claiming. Seems they are quoting the Dash at average scheduled block time for that route and their own machine at sales brochure TAS with no allowance for ATC or taxi.
I do wish the sales people would tell it how it is, or at least make the comparisons constant. When the client is disappointed in the on-time performance, the sales mob are always quick to field it to the Chief Pilot to 'please explain' all the delays.
Then the bean counters get in on the act asking why the hourly revenue is less than the hourly costs. Derrr.

Copythisnumberdown

28th Jan 2012, 10:46

You should apply, speaking to one of their new crew members the other day, the comment was that there was a shortage of guys with E145/Legacy time..They are crewing again soon for their 2nd aircraft..They are looking for DE Captains and FO's.. Hear they pay well to:ok:

THE ORACLE

28th Jan 2012, 19:51

Why apply for a job with a company that has such an obviously unsustainable business plan?

It seems JetGo's management is adhering to the old aviation adage that "to make a small fortune in aviation you must first start with a big fortune"

The Oracle

flying-spike

28th Jan 2012, 20:14

I reckon that Copythisnumberdown and his ilk may well be rewarded for their enthusiasm.
They may even get their super contributions back or even have their leave entitlements paid out but then again maybe not.

Plenty of operators have started off with a pile of cash and enthusiasm only to see both disappear as calculations based on optimism alone start to fall apart. I would be asking to see how they plan to sustain losses over the coming months.

Nobody wants to see a new start fall over but sickly enthusiasm in the face of logic and history does not win friends. Forewarned is forearmed.

megle2

28th Jan 2012, 22:14

This is all sounds like a windup
Lack of accuracy by the start up pushers suits a rumor network

flying-spike

28th Jan 2012, 23:12

If this isn't a windup, what's the bet that the individual with the initials D.C., ex Skyairworld is involved?

my oleo is extended

28th Jan 2012, 23:43

If this isn't a windup, what's the bet that the individual with the initials D.C., ex Skyairworld is involved?
Hmmm, sounds like it is all starting to make sense now if this is the case? Beware of the snake oil salesman is an old adage that comes to mind!

It seems JetGo's management is adhering to the old aviation adage that "to make a small fortune in aviation you must first start with a big fortune"
Oracle I always enjoy your well thought out comments and agree with everything you say including your analysis of the inflated JetGo figures that they have conveniently glossed up in an attempt to make their competitors look like a second rate option.
I would be very interested in looking beyond JetGo's 'enthusiasm' and sparkling analytical statements and peer beneath the veneer. What are the projected start up losses for the first 12 months? What are the initial start up costs in total? What is the projected or anticipated profit and loss estimates for years 1, 2 and 3?

And finaly, as for BARS being JetGo's benchmark, what can is say but 'oh dear'. To date this new start company has a lot of blowflies hanging around it.

Ascend Charlie

29th Jan 2012, 06:42

Jeez, I love this industry!!!

From a website (deliberately vague at this stage, to avoid showing their cards too soon) and a press release (again, not to reveal too much too soon) and an ineffective google search, all you experts have decided that JetGo is No Go.

What a pack of pud-pullers and knockers.

Sit back and see, it won't cost you anything, and you might avoid looking like a triple-headed d1ldo, sneaking back onto the thread to delete your post.

flying-spike

29th Jan 2012, 08:55

So the info is deliberately vague? I thought it was fairly specific. Aircraft type, market and base.
People with experience criticise the choice of aircraft and standard of advice their management are getting and you resort to refererring to your sexual dalliances?

Me thinks he doth protest too much!

Back in yer box clown

my oleo is extended

30th Jan 2012, 05:48

From a website (deliberately vague at this stage, to avoid showing their cards too soon) and a press release (again, not to reveal too much too soon) and an ineffective google search, all you experts have decided that JetGo is No Go.
Perhaps some of us have been burned by operators 'promising the world' and delivering nought, and in the process we have been robbed blind, hence the scepticism ?
So I would suggest that JetGo take some of the criticism, even it seems a little harsh, and look at applying the 'advice'. Maybe some of us are actually trying to save the company from some pain and inconvenience? If you think our comments are harsh then just wait and see what happens if the Regulator spots some giant holes in your processes, you will wish you had listended to some of your 'critics' instead.

What a pack of pud-pullers and knockers.
A 'pud puller' would not try to assist or correct these new guys with their start up operation.

Sit back and see, it won't cost you anything, and you might avoid looking like a triple-headed d1ldo, sneaking back onto the thread to delete your post.
I dont delete any of my posts, if I am incorrect then so be it. I don't sneak back in and delete anything, that may be your modus operandi but it's not mine. As for triple headed dildo's that sounds like you are talking about BARS!

Jetgo Management

30th Jan 2012, 08:29

Good Afternoon Fellow PPRuner's.... It has been brought to the managements attention of JGA that certain 'facts,figures and innuendo have been thrown about on this forum in the early stages of a launch of our new operation.

My purpose here is to TRY and answer any legitimate questions subscribers of this thread may have, directed at the operation, employment etc. As obviously we are quite busy doing our 'day jobs' , one or more of us will regularly monitor the forum and will endeavor to answer most posts or PM's.... We welcome constructive criticism but we wont accept nor acknowledge slanging matches.. Additionally due to the privacy our current staff, we cant answer questions about members, management or about salaries until which time you were asked to interview if ultimately that's where your interest is.

We thank you in advance for those of you who have wished us well in the daunting process of setting up and can only hope we prosper in this challenging industry.... :ok::ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

THE ORACLE

30th Jan 2012, 19:50

Dear JetGo management.

Thank you so much for your post. In a way it was illuminating, in that although I haven't had my TV on this morning, it seems after reading your post, that I have just read a section of Sir Humphrey's dialogue with Jim Hacker from an episode of.... "Yes Minister".

Surely you can do better than this first offering?

The Oracle

Ascend Charlie

30th Jan 2012, 20:11

Yes, he can, and don't call him Shirley.

gobbledock

31st Jan 2012, 11:28

Dear JetGo Management,
Fancy a rumor network that contains a mixture of 'facts, figures and innuendo, who would have thought?
I guess the troops have grown restless, they are no longer satisfied with 'snippets, teasers and trailers', the troops are hungering for more detail about your BARS accredited organization!

Your post was a poor attempt at 'being diplomatically turse' with all the naughty gossip mongers. Let me be undiplomatic in my retort - 'This is a bloody rumor network, not a relaible forthright accurate factual newspaper!!!(Refer to the work of one GT, aviation writer, critic and nimrod) If you dont appreciate, like or are emotionally able to accept critisism or innuendo then tell your 'staff' (or most likely yourself) not to post on this website.
Perhaps a posting on a mining website notice board or on a BARS accredited consultancy firms website would be more well suited and tailored to your emotional needs?

CaptCaveman

31st Jan 2012, 22:21

Gobbledock,

The words are "terse" not "turse"; "reliable" not "relaible", but as your stated location is "Alabama", we should, perhaps, expect a lack of knowledge of the English language.

Seems to me you might be the one who has "emotional needs" issues with the post/s if you get so worked up that you can't commuicate and spell correctly.:p:p:p

Get the knock back from them did you? Perhaps you should replace the second "o" in your handle with an "i", it might improve your employment prospects.:E:E:E

Waiting for your emotional reply to my "mixture of 'facts, figures and innuendo, who would have thought?"

The Caveman.:D:D:D

porch monkey

31st Jan 2012, 23:15

Gee, who would have thought? Another Pprune thread degenerates into a knob size contest. :rolleyes:

flying-spike

31st Jan 2012, 23:16

"Get the knock back from them did you? Perhaps you should replace the second "o" in your handle with an "i", it might improve your employment prospects.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif"

The quotation above is in the correct "APA" style.

As for the in-your-end o" is that how you get a job?

Caveman, you are not contributing to the thread as many have, constructively. IF Jetgo Management really do follow this thread I hope that they take notice of the information regarding performance of the aircraft and the quality of advice they are getting regarding SMS and compliance.

The people contributing do have experience and are worth listening to, Too many aviation entrepreneurs are dreamers and they build the dream on poor foundations. Better to take a gulp of humility than drown in ignorance.

Horatio Leafblower

1st Feb 2012, 01:12

Ignoring some of the names being bandied around here as being behind JGA, the rumours I am hearing - if true - would mean the people REALLY behind it actually DO have real experience, and are currently operating in Australia with at least 2 RPT AOCs.

When I read the publicity I hear an African-French accent. Pourquoi?

The viability or otherwise of operating baby Jungle-Jets in Australia is something I'm not qualified to comment on.

The probability of them being 100% BARS compliant is quite high, given that the BAR Standard is pretty much equivalent to the Australian regulatory standard for that level of operation in any case. Ho hum. :zzz:

Nevertheless, the relevance of spruiking the BAR Standard for this level of operation is dubious, as it is really just a pre-qualification for mining work and it is not universally applied. Most resource companies have their own more rigorous aviation risk standard and the operation will be audited against that AS WELL AS the FSF BARS.

Good luck to them, I hope it makes a motsa for all involved.

havick

1st Feb 2012, 01:29

Horatio Leafblower does raise an interesting point.

BARS isn't the be all and end all standard. Many resource companies have more onerous req's well above BARS (at least in the Helicopter world).

CaptCaveman

1st Feb 2012, 03:16

Jeez Spike, I didn’t know it was your thread and that stirring or pricking a pompous post wasn’t allowed, I thought this forum was Pprune.

So, do I need your permission to respond or make a post? I tell you what, I will anyway. It could be a glasshouse, not a cave that I’m in but maybe you’re in there as well as you seem to have forgotten a set of quotation marks regarding the second “o”; and as I’m a pilot not a desk jockey like you Spike, what’s “APA” style? Australian Posters Style? As you’re in Brisbane I’ll use another Queenslander's phrase, “Please explain?”

Regarding, whether the JetGo management should take that gulp of humility and listen to the posters on this thread.

The thread started as a question in response to an advertisement for pilots, which is a fair question but since that post. The thread has then had comments about possible involvement of people requiring a butterfly net; Aeropelican involvement; self proclaimed experts pontificating on the choice of aircraft; whether they’re going to get an AOC by the first quarter of 2012 with no consideration that their application could be, and probably is, well progressed if they’re hiring people; somebody complaining about the quality of their website; whether CASA would be sniggering in a corner about their SMS; whether they know about BARS and that it’s mainly a mining company/ service customer requirement and not a CASA qualification; somebody wanting to see the balance sheet(nobody other than their shareholders and financiers will ever get a peak at that I’m guessing); whether they’re going to fail or succeed (fair points); whether their quality of posting on this thread is to someone’s liking; whether JetGo management is able to handle the emotional stress of what’s being posted; etc.

People, this is an anonymous rumour forum, you can’t realistically expect to get all your desired answers on this forum, or not be lampooned for some of the arrogance and ignorance being shown, or the comments people make (as I probably will be for this post and my previous firmly tongue in cheek post has been), it’s a useful tool but not the font of all aviation knowledge. No business is going to give you all the answers you think you deserve, who’d realistically reveal all that information on an anonymous website for all to see.

I think if you want answers it might be best to contact the JetGo management as they’ve invited you to do.

Personally, I’d like to think that they may have suitable aviation experience (possibly more than you and I, or possibly less, who knows); a business plan; arranged financing, as no one’s giving money or aircraft away these days; done their homework on their market and what aircraft the market needs or wants; looked after their requirements regarding their desired AOC and SMS and their compliance with CASA’s requirements in that regard and the standard it’s written too; directed their energies into those tasks and excluded, or deferred, the non-core requirements(i.e. a fancy webpage).

Remember people, it’s the JetGo management and investor’s time and money. If they aren’t serious and professional about it all, then they’ll probably lose their money and have waisted their time, which is entirely their problem.

To those of you who’d say what about their employee’s time and money, well there’s no guarantees in this life other than Birth, Death and Taxes, all professional pilots know (or should realise) we’re all only one medical, or two check rides, away from a new career, and the Australian government rules regarding payment of salaries and entitlements are the same for all companies and employees. As the saying goes “You pays your money and you takes your chances”, if offered a job, take it or not, it’s your decision, you should be man, or woman, enough to accept that.

The reality for most of us in the aviation profession is that we need business people to have the desire to participate in aviation, the conviction of their ideas and business models, and a belief in themselves to put their time, energy and money into aviation to allow us to do what we all love. I’m grateful to my boss for allowing me to have a front row seat in a sweet aircraft; and no it isn’t JetGo, as I personally don’t want to live in the hillbilly state of Queensland ever again.

Either way, time will tell, and if you’re Fair Dinkum about wanting aviation in Australia to expand and provide opportunities for employment, any start up should be encouraged not criticized before you’ve seen the product in service.

The Caveman.

In my Cave, or possibly glasshouse:p:p:p

P.S. Spike, regarding the "i" and how I got my job; no I'm just a good bloke and **** hot pilot.:O:O:O Arrogant bastard to boot ;)

flying-spike

1st Feb 2012, 09:02

Firstly Caveman, I would never dictate to anybody that they shouldn't post to any forum.
Secondly, the passage with the missing inverted comma is a cut and paste from your post.
Thirdly, APA style is from the American Psychology Association and the style standard when writing material about psychology especially aviation psychology.

Lastly, I am sure you are a very capable pilot and thoroughly deserved of your position. I accept that you obviously wrote your last paragraph with your tongue firmly planted in both cheeks, hopefully your own.
Cheers

CaptCaveman

1st Feb 2012, 09:48

Spike,

1/ Sure sounded like it;

2/ The missing “o”, isn’t from my post, it’s from yours, check your 3rd paragraph; Gobbledock left out the inverted comma in his/her post and I simply cut and pasted it;

3/ Thanks, I didn’t know that, always good to learn something new;:ok::ok::ok:

4/ Finally picked up the tongue in check nature of my original post today after I pointed it out, good on you; Who said Queenslanders were slow?:p:p:p

The Caveman

gobbledock

1st Feb 2012, 11:58

Wow Caveman, what an emotion packed response. I always love it when a 'wordsmith' like yourself trots out the old boring insults about poor vocabulary etc. Blah blah it's been done to death. That style critisism is reactionary just like a toddler who is punished or scolded yet cannot control its emotional response due to immuturity and/or lack of brain development.
Strange how you criticize the vocabulary of other people and locations such as Alabama, Brisbane and Queensland, you are a very rude individual indeed. And the word hypocrisy comes to mind also.

Caveman, on a positive note it is great to see you so enthusiastically backing JetGo considering you are not an employee of JetGo as you pointed out.

Spike, your understanding of psychology is interesting, including your analysis of Caveman in which you break through his maze of emotions and comments
and accurately point out that for Caveman 'tongue in cheek' is most definitely a literal and physical act. I like your work Spike.

And who knows, JetGo may really set the BAR high as they enter the aviation scene. I hope they are looking forward to all those monthly reports they will be writing for all the mining companies they will be flying for. Any significant event that happens within their airline such as an incident, regulatory enforcement or punitive actions they receive, LTI or a fart out of place will endanger their contract!!! But they already knew that I am sure. Winning the contract is simple, keeping it is a different story.

Jetgo Management

1st Feb 2012, 12:10

Well Said and Factual.. Thank you for the support Caveman and Horatio! :ok:

gobbledock

1st Feb 2012, 12:32

Oh Christ, three of them spruiking the airline now!! What's next, nude Twister?

Well Said and Factual.. Thank you for the support Spike and Oracle! :ok:

CaptCaveman

1st Feb 2012, 18:09

Well come in Gobbledock,

The fish bite hard there in ‘Bama, eh! You’ve just got to be a Yank with your apparent lack of understanding of Australian humour and how we deal with each other regarding state rivalries. Remember, we often call each other “Bastard/s” as term of friendship over here in Oz but not “Turds”, is that ‘Bama slang for “Mate”?

The reactionary criticism, just like a toddler? Strange, it seemed to me that you were guilty of just that in your first post because you wanted answers on a public forum that you didn’t receive and believed you deserved. Hence, my response to your little Tanty (Aussie for tantrum/dummy spit [pacifier spit]) of a post.

Have you asked the JetGo management yet for those answers or are you afraid to ask them directly? Again, who’s got the emotional and maturity issues?????

Thanks for letting us all know about BARS administration and how it has to be handled. Who’d have thought that customers would want to know how things are going on a monthly basis or that a company would have to respond to any accidents or incidents; like a fart! I wonder if JetGo management ever thought about that before they decided to invest their time and money into getting their business going? I’d be willing to bet they did, I’d ask them directly but I reckon it’s their problem. Why don’t you ask them directly as they’ve invited you to do or are you only brave enough to do that on an anonymous public forum?

I’ve had another look at my posts and I can’t see where I’m spruiking JetGo, just pointing out a few things regarding the thread, it’s direction, claims of expertise and demands to be listened too; just like a toddler, eh? (By the way, FYI as you Yanks say, the “Eh?”, is a bit of a reference to the speech patterns of Queenslanders, specifically, North Queenslanders). I suppose if you believe anyone who isn’t negative about a start up company is “Spruiking” them, well then you could see it that way, but as I said I was just trying to point out that maybe, just maybe, the JetGo management and investors could have some expertise in aviation (obviously not as much as yourself or other posters on this forum of course), have done their sums and market research, and have decided to back themselves in starting an aviation company. As I said it’s their time and money, no one else’s, and if they screw it up it’s their problem. Time will tell.

Waiting for your next (non) emotional response to my post and some more in depth analysis to my complex “maze of emotions and comments”. (Hey Spike mate, did I get the quotation style correct, I like to try to improve each day)

The Caveman

(a seriously rude:cool:, hypocritical, immature and mentally under developed individual:confused:):p:p:p:p:p:p

P.S. Gobbledock, I forgot to ask, the naked twister sounds great but tell me please, is it still compulsory there in ‘Bama to bring a female relative and/or “Hawg”(for use during the game and eatin’ afterwards) if you don’t have a date? You see, it’s now only optional in certain parts of Oz (don’t say FNQ or Tassie, they might think I’m rude, etc) and definitely frowned upon were I live. I wouldn’t want to upset anybody or cause them to think that I had “issues” as you say in the US.;)

Cactusjack

1st Feb 2012, 19:58

Who the f:mad: is this caveman goon? Personal insults on individuals, states of Australia etc and then palming it off as good ol Aussie banter? What a croc. And yes I am an Aussie who is prone to taking the piss in the standard Aussie fashion but Caveman you are a tool.
P.S And your wording should say 'where I live' not 'were I live'. Thought I would point that out considering you are focusing on other people's language skills or apparent lack of.
Go get him Spike and Gobbler.

flying-spike

1st Feb 2012, 21:26

You are getting there Caveman but you must remember to italicize the quoted remark. See example below:-

" Remember people, it’s the JetGo management and investor’s time and money. If they aren’t serious and professional about it all, then they’ll probably lose their money and have waisted their time, which is entirely their problem."

That is a direct cut and paste from your post. Please note the spelling error in the use of the word "waisted", I think you mean "wasted" or it is an oblique reference to an hour glass. (just made myself laugh).

On a more serious note the problem is not JetGo's management alone. When they start employing people failure of the venture becomes the employee"s problem when, as as happened too many times already, they are left without entitlements including pay, superannuation and paid leave.

Anybody joining the organisation needs to have done due diligence before taking the leap of faith and I hope JetGo have enough factual information to satisfy their needs.

I did recognize the tongue in cheek nature of your remarks from the outset. Nobody could be that conceited even if they are a pilot. I also noted your use of emoticons in order to express yourself. Well done, my 4 year old niece also likes smiley faces but I am sure she will grow out of it in time. (that was thinly veiled sarcasm in case you weren't sure, also tongue in cheek)

I do honestly wish JetGo all the best not only for the sake of the management and investors but their employees and the industry as well. (and no, I am not sucking up for a job, I am quite happy where I am)

Horatio Leafblower

1st Feb 2012, 21:35

Dear Jet Go Management,

I politely wished you well and pointed out some facts to those hysterical about BARS.

I am refraining from saying a lot about this company.

"Support"? Not really.

CaptCaveman

2nd Feb 2012, 08:13

Well welcome back into the game Cactusjack, good to hear from you again, thanks for picking up that I left out the “h” in “where I live”, must’ve been rushing a bit too much this morning in my desire to go flying. But isn’t it a slippery slope we travel, could you clarify the “croc”, did you perhaps mean the shortened form of the reptile or “crock” with a “k”, as in “crock of sh@t”? I’ll assume the later. Is the banter OK when you’re “BARring up”, as in your previous post but to much for your delicate ears now? Rather quick to jump down on people about BARs and their perceived lack of knowledge to show off your claimed expertise. If you are Australian, as you claim, then I think you’d have to acknowledge that Australians have been having a dig at each other, and where they live, since the first European settlers (or invaders/conquerors as you will) left Sydney Cove to settle elsewhere in Oz. I tell what you mate; I’ll give you and everyone else a free hand to slag off where I come from, NSW, the “Premier State”, and me personally if it makes you feel better. I’ll even get you started with an ‘Oldie but a goodie’. “Did you hear about the big stink between Victoria and Queensland? No? It’s New South Wales” (for those of you who aren’t familiar with Aussie slang, a stink not only refers to a smell but a fight). Come on you Banana Benders, Mexicans, Two Headers, Crow Eaters and Sandgropers, pile on. Maybe you’ve been away from Oz to long Cactusjack, or perhaps, to use a current piece of Aussie slang, you need to, “Harden up, Buttercup”

With regards to personal insults, perhaps I should have been more culturally sensitive to Gobbledock and screwing around with the spelling of his/hers PPruNe handle (but it was to good to pass up after a few libations; cracked up some of my fellow Neanderthal/ bogan mates as well though), the sexual innuendo and suggesting how to advance his/her career was probably a step to far. I forgot that other than the Brits/ Kiwis/ Aussies, other cultures can easily take offence at how we often mercilessly tease each other; quite often I was reminded of this when working overseas years ago with a mixed crew of Downunder/ Godzone types and other nationalities, and the horror with which Europeans mostly, thought of our behaviour until it was pointed out to them, that this was often the way we interrelated and that no, we didn’t actually hate each other but were in fact good mates. Perhaps, Cactusjack in your new European home you’ve forgotten how rough that ribbing can be? So to Gobbledock, if that part of my post offended you, I do sincerely apologise; however, with relation to your “pop phycology babble” about my emotional state and level of maturity, if you think I’m not going to have a crack back at you, you’re dreaming! Will I retract what I said, or apologise for pointing out that it was you in fact who had the infantile response of a figurative footstamp to the JetGo management post with your undiplomatically worded retort and a demand for more information on a public forum when JetGo management had invited you to ask them direct questions, NO.

Spike, again thank you for the two pickups, the “waist/ waste” thing was a bit of a Freudian slip as I was thinking about the waist at which I was looking at the time:E:E:E; the italics thing, yes, I noticed it when you responded about the APA style but the penny didn’t quite drop that that was the important point, a bit of a Neanderthal Caveman I guess. With regard to the emoticons and your niece, well to be honest, she’s probably already got me covered with regards to maturity level and intelligence and I use them as the written word can’t convey my facial expressions, tone of voice, etc, that generally conveys my tongue in cheek attitude; so, I’ll keep using them for awhile, but I thought you had picked up on the overall tone:ok:.

As you said, now to the serious bit. I fully appreciate your concern over the potential well being of employees at JetGo, however as I said in the guts of one of my previous posts; “To those of you who’d say what about their employee’s time and money, well there’s no guarantees in this life other than Birth, Death and Taxes, all professional pilots know (or should realise) we’re all only one medical, or two check rides, away from a new career, and the Australian government rules regarding payment of salaries and entitlements are the same for all companies and employees. As the saying goes “You pays your money and you takes your chances”, if offered a job, take it or not, it’s your decision, you should be man, or woman, enough to accept that.” (Yes, vain quoting myself but I can’t be ars#d typing it again). There have been plenty of examples in Australia and elsewhere of people who’ve done their due diligence checks on employers, investment institutions and such, who’ve come unstuck; Ansett Airlines, Lehman Brothers, come to mind. There’s no guarantees in this world old mate, you, I and every one else has to go with their best judgement at the time.

If people want to know about JetGo to do those due diligence checks before applying for, or accepting, employment. Do what JetGo management has invited you to do, ask them! Maybe they’ll tell you (probably nothing commercially sensitive though) or maybe they won’t; but you’ll probably have to man up and actually ask them yourself, not rely on a rumour network and then make your decision either way.

As I said before, you’ll just have to trust that they’ve done their homework, as they’re obviously backing themselves, and that they’re correct. If not, it’s really their problem not yours. The people that they’ve started to employ obviously believe they’ve got their sh@t together and they’ve taken that leap of faith we all have when accepting a job.

Time will tell of course but I’m prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt at present.

The Caveman

P.S. Oh Cactusjack, you took offence apparently at my “Personal insults on individuals”, yet you jumped straight in there with some for me, and then pushed other people forward to do your dirty work. We have several names and insults here in Australia for those who have a go at someone, or thing, but then expect others to do the dirty work, none of them complementary but you should know that of course.:p:p:p

gobbledock

21st Feb 2012, 13:55

This thread has been quiet for a few weeks, whats happening Caveman, Spike, JetGo management et al? Any updates on the AOC application? Has CASA set the BARS to high perhaps?

flying-spike

21st Feb 2012, 19:30

Cactusjack

22nd Feb 2012, 22:46

Still lurking here GD. waiting for more movement at the camp. Perhaps JetGo management have had a change of heart after the Air Australia mess. Or, they have decided to incorporate an A330 into the operation and use it between Brizzy and Gladstone?

Perhaps a fleet of 727's would make a worthy addition to the JetNo fleet?
Spike, It would appear you are also lurking around here, along with the Gobbler? But where is Caveman? I somewhat miss that flying rascal and his witty banter, is he still busy with his 'tongue in cheek'?.

Has anybody heard yet whether this BARS accredited outfit has received its AOC yet?

falconx

22nd Feb 2012, 23:36

JetGo leases Embraer ERJ-135 for FIFO | Australian Aviation Magazine (http://australianaviation.com.au/2012/02/jetgo-leases-embraer-erj-135-for-fifo/)

Something coming of it, but no AOC approved as yet (as of today)

Jetgo Management

25th Feb 2012, 21:35

For those of you interested in "progress' if you take a quick look at our, " I quote from another visitor on this thread," crap website Home - JetGo Australia (http://www.jetgoaustralia.com.au) , you will see the aircraft in a hanger in prep for its ferry to Oz...

No its not photo-shopped, or a painted model.. All going well aircraft should touch down on Australian soil in the next couple of weeks.... for those of you interested in the "AOC" ... Again , from another quote here, its a bit hard to get an AOC without an aircraft.. True words none-the-less, We hope to have our flight testing phase completed with CASA by the end of March.... On track hopefully for the end of the first quarter of 2012.

Thanks everyone for your interest, cynical interest included!

falconx

8th Mar 2012, 02:12

Jetgo has leased ex (XA-AMM) now VH-JTG arriving in aus next week for its fifo operations

Skystar320

8th Mar 2012, 10:00

Well I guess they would be paying in the vicinity of US$65k a mth [EMB-145 lease] + maintenance reserves...

Would it have been better to lease a ATR42 for around US$50k a month?

falconx

8th Mar 2012, 20:29

Whats tas of an ATR to 145?

flying-spike

8th Mar 2012, 21:26

"With the deal, John Holland becomes the first Embraer Authorized Service Center in Asia Pacific, Embraer said."

Does that mean Air North, Virgin Australia and SkyAirworld are/were unauthorized?

Engineer_aus

9th Mar 2012, 03:09

I can see this failing, Ozjet, Sky, Strategic, Air Australia.

morno

9th Mar 2012, 03:49

Given that Alliance OWN all their aircraft outright and have a pretty firm grip on the resources market at the moment for those who want jets, I'm struggling why anyone would think they can really compete with them!

morno

Roger Greendeck

9th Mar 2012, 04:46

ATR TAS is mid 200's and EMB is low 400's. Obviously sector times influenced by climb, descent, holding etc

BPA

9th Mar 2012, 06:12

Photo of the aircraft:

Photos: Embraer EMB-135LR (ERJ-135LR) Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/JetGo-Australia/Embraer-EMB-135LR-(ERJ-135LR)/2076238/L/&sid=5c718cbe2e39a88176862f3034f7fad1)

springbokflyer145

17th Mar 2012, 22:40

JetGo are a start up and making their plans for what hopefully will be a great company.
There are so many pilots out there that just sit on this website and moan and groan about every single thread. If they are not happy with their present employer or job, then maybe they should think of a career change and let other keen aviators move on in the flying careers and get some constructive information from this website.

I bet if this start up makes it and is a great company to work for then all these moaning pilots that are not happy, will be wanting to apply for a position.

Just let JetGo do what it has to do until it can get established, instead of all the negative comments from you so called Experts. Just remember Virgin did not have a fleet of aircraft when it started so let time tell.

I will take a job with them.:ok:

Avturbound

18th Mar 2012, 01:28

Mate, Couldn't have said it better myself!

I would have thought if another company starts up it would be good for the industry if they succeed...

Bitter pilots, get over it or move on!

THE ORACLE

25th Mar 2012, 06:19

Yesterday afternoon I saw JetGo's EMB Jet sitting in the Eastern Park at Mascot. What struck me was how similar their choice of livery was to that of the REX Saab parked nearby.

Any one care to make a "conspiracy theory" comment in this regard?

And dear "Spring" I was quite amused by what I think was a somewhat introspective remark from you concerning 'all the negative comments from you so called experts'.

As one of the posters in your 'sights' with a critical opinion of JetGo's long term prospects, I offer you the following quote from the Nobel Prize winning physicist and father of quantum mechanics and it's uncertainty principle, Dr. Werner Heisenberg - "An expert is someone who knows some of the worst mistakes that can be made in his subject, and how to avoid them."

As I said in my earlier thread on 16th January, in order to succeed, JetGo needs to offer a service that is both attractive to their proposed customers and more price competitive than other competitors in their target market.

Unless JetGo own their assets outright and have a huge cash surplus to lose while they fight for a share of their market, they will ultimately be outpriced by the current market players due to the well documented and unsustainable high costs of operating 37 to 50 seat regional jets against turboprops over sector lengths of less than 400 nautical miles.

Should they choose not to fight against turbo's in the sub 400NM markets and instead seek FIFO work servicing clients at ranges between 400NM to 600NM (where EMB/CRJ DOC's can be cost effective), they will then be attempting to compete in markets suitable to 70 to 100 seat Jets such as the F70 and F100. Ultimately these larger operators will be more cost competitive with their greater economies of scale (1 crew change movement of the Fokker or Bae/RJ 70/100) compared with the 2 crew change movements required by the EMB Jet).

The Oracle

thrustpig

25th Mar 2012, 06:27

Gotta go with the "O" on the aircraft selection. The jungle jet a thirsty bird to feed with only 30 odd punters.

TWOTBAGS

25th Mar 2012, 11:27

You guys crack me up! There are only three people who really know what is going on at JetGo and its none of you.

The drivel being sprouted here once again displays the lack of knowledge of what is really happening in the industry that we all derive our living from.

I have been here since 1996 when PPrune was a two forum email BBS, and have a really good idea what the “R” stands for. However the “R” is only pertinent when you actually know something (which most of you don’t) . Made up concepts or ….”my ideas” do not constitute the “R”.

JetGo is bringing something very new to market, do you honestly think that you pluck a multi million dollar jet out of thin air, have it registered and operating in country without having backing or experience and a combination of the two.

Instead of sprouting how they are going to do this or that, the JetGo crew have let their plane do the talking, actions speak a lot louder than words in this industry. They slowly got on with the job of doing it. A new AOC, not re-birthed or borrowed, compliant with their customers demands and that of the department.

This project has been on the cards for over two years, the paperwork has been at CASA for nearly a year. They have put in place the right people with the right experience, without the hubbub and the show.

So instead sprouting how “airline economics” dictate that this or that, and which aircraft is not suited for whichever market. Not every customer needs 100 seats, nor do they want to go 400 miles.

At one stage every airline in Australia had one aircraft……JetGo is no different. These guys have popped up from under the radar….. only because most people here can only see as far as their own horizon.

JetGo have deliberately played their cards very close to their chest, they are a fresh breath to the Australian industry

Australians talk about giving the underdog a fair go, well how about you guys give them the support that they deserve, more jets means, more jobs, more jobs means more options, and more options is what all the pilots in this country want and need.

Its either that or part time contracts with a one star airline, the once icon of the global aviation industry is not going to hire for a very very long time or you can stick to flogging about the sky in geriatric turboprop.

Your choice.:E

Copythisnumberdown

25th Mar 2012, 11:53

Just thought I'd start to come back with a few classic "Fails" of the so called experts on this forum, this one by "Bizzybody"

"Wow an all white unmarked aircraft with an unknown rego in a hanger on the other side of the globe. Yep must be theirs"

Strangest thing happened to me today when I was pre-flighting my a/c beside JetGos new E135... Must be a mirage.. Yes this forum knows it all ...I shake my head in bewilderment.. Good Luck Jetgo.... Thumbs up for 'having a go" now how about a job!!!!:ok:

grrowler

25th Mar 2012, 21:49

Tell you what cracks me up - pilot's with jets in their eyes who think every new start up is going to be a wonderful, money spinning success, and can't handle any comments that aren't blowing smoke. It's got nothing to do with giving them a fair go, tall poppy syndrome or bitterness - it's about seeing through the spin and keeping it real.

Generally wary comments will be posted by those who have been personally affected by the collapse of yet another failed aviation venture, or have watched one unravel nearby. Every startup says they are bringing something new/ different, have the most experienced team, are more efficient. Problem is if the idea isn't good it doesn't make any difference.

Try looking past one jet with a new coat of paint and look at what exactly they are doing and why it hasn't been done successfully before, otherwise you might be looking for the unemployment office.

bizzybody

25th Mar 2012, 23:42

Copythis.

I know their leased aircraft is in town. I know they took Photos of an all white plane claiming to be theirs. I know that it's also not their money, I know it's not their balls on the line and I know their application has not been in with CASA for over a year.

Ahhhh yes the Do 328 Jet concept?

My money is on the F50 operation starting up in the same area around the same time. At least they are using their own money and they have all been in the airline industry for longer than JR and AM have been alive.

3 Holer

25th Mar 2012, 23:54

Just remember Virgin did not have a fleet of aircraft when it started so let time tell.

Then Ansett went tits up and the rest is history. I don't think JetGo will get that lucky but we'll "let time tell" !:ok:

GADRIVR

26th Mar 2012, 00:27

"I know their leased aircraft is in town. I know they took Photos of an all white plane claiming to be theirs. I know that it's also not their money, I know it's not their balls on the line and I know their application has not been in with CASA for over a year.

Sure you do Bizzy old chum.....suurre you do!! I'd put forward the proposition that you're a worried competitor!!!!

I LOVE this thread!! :}

bizzybody

26th Mar 2012, 01:41

Please note I wish no harm on anyone. I really do wish them well as I do with another that wants to have a go.

Lol I really don't think you can compare jetgo to Virgin though. Skyair and strategic started the same way too

A worried competitor????? Baaaaahahahahahaha could not be further from the truth my friend..

TWOTBAGS

26th Mar 2012, 03:42

Actually Bizzy, you have just proven yourself to be a fool.

The first thing you learn to do when developing something, is you don't tell everyone all of the story.

Everyone gets a bout 80% of the news and the remaining 20% is divided up among the flock and to see what comes back full circle.... ie who can keep their mouth shut and who cant. A little bit of knowledge is a very dangerous thing because that is exactly what you have shot yourself with.

You are blatantly wrong about some details you sprout forth as fact. How do I know this, because I countersigned the documents you portray as not existing.

I think it could be wise for your to remove you incorrect statement, the word you should look up is Libel, but as you are a bit slow on the uptake I will give you a hint.

Related to defamation is public disclosure of private facts, which arises where one person reveals information that is not of public concern, and the release of which would offend a reasonable person.

Seaeagle109

26th Mar 2012, 07:32

Bizzybody, et al,

You may want to brush up on this;
Australian Defamation Laws and the Internet (http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor/defamation.html)

Especially after a statement of "material that could be found to be defamatory includes that which has the tendency to lower the person in the estimation of others" eg about their financial commitment in their company. That would, IMHO, lower the estimation of a fledgling business man, who's establishing a business in a small aviation community, in the eyes of a reasonable person. ie a client or potential supplier or employee.

A rumour is one thing, a statement is quite another, especially about individuals; can you back up this statement? I'm willing to bet you can't from Twotbags' reaction.

PPRuNe is an anonymous rumour network, but it's not going to be that anonymous for you, if the PPRuNe management is involved in a libel action, as has been hinted at by Twotbags.

Seaeagle109

"A man's character is his fate" Heraclitus, 535-475BC

gobbledock

26th Mar 2012, 11:41

Grrowler - nice post, nailed it in one!

And then come the 'libel' posts, right on cue. The threat of libel (by posters) is usually rolled out when people start sooking because they aren't reading 'wonderful, positive, enthralling statements'. I am wondering out of curiosity- how does one get sued for libel if one posts his/her comments from a public computer that is located well away from any pesky CCTV cameras and one has originally set up ones email account at Gmail with false details? Just curious, seriously.

Seaeagle109

26th Mar 2012, 21:31

Gobbledock,

Sorry if my “libel post” has offended you, but my interest was sparked by the hint of a libel threat/action, so I Goggled “libel”, as I’m a total legal layman, and found out about the Libel laws for electronic media in Australia to inform myself and posted a link for any other interested PPRuNer users. I am aware that there was a recent successful action against an Australian blogger over statements made in a blog, which were incorrect about an individual. If you read the linked page in my previous post you'll find even the truth is not a defense in some cases, if the disclosure of facts is not in the public interest; that I personally found very interesting as I thought the truth is the ultimate defense; Twotbags quite accurately pointed that out to Bizzybody.

Your question about how someone could be identified if they used a public computer and avoided CCTV is an interesting one but I thought PPRuNe wouldn’t let you set up an account using services like Hotmail and possibly Gmail, so that we can all actually be identified if required. I do know that a person can be tracked down by a knowledgeable computer user, look at the recent case of the “Collar Bomb” offender; he was tracked to a public computer in his local library and an anonymous email address . I’d hazard a guess that, like me, most PPRuNer users use either personal or work computers to view and post on this forum, so identification of an individual is probably easy. Cookies must be enabled | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/guilty-plea-over-collar-bomb-case/story-fn7x8me2-1226293153257)

Bizzybody has made a statement about individuals and their financial involvement in their company that I believe triggered the hint of legal action, not made a comment like “I believe or I’ve heard” or stated a negative opinion or comment like you and others have about JetGo, which you're entitled to do. So, that’s a bit of a difference in my opinion (only that of a legal layman) and reading the article/definitions on libel, it could be a prudent move to either retract it, or prove it, or apologise for it, as a “reasonable person” could form a negative opinion of the identified individuals and the subsequent post about meaning no harm to JetGo probably isn’t enough. JR was ID’d on the first page of this thread and anyone dealing with JetGo on a professional basis would know AM’s identity.

I'd guess there's real money on the line here and inflicting damage on some person or entity's reputation could cause them problems (financially or professionally) and ultimately the person making the offending statements, problems, should legal action be taken over the offending statements. I believe PPRuNe has in the past blocked posts about companies and individuals due to legal issues but I'm not sure if that is still happening.

However, it’s no problem of mine and maybe Bizzybody will either “put up or shut up” regarding his/her statement; I’ll be interested to see what happens.

Seaeagle109

“A man’s character is his fate” Heraclitus, 535-475BC.

GADRIVR

27th Mar 2012, 11:48

Love your work Gobbledock.... Sniping from the edges as usual. Nothing positive to say as usual. Nothing of any real consequence to say as usual. Just the usual flying club drivel!!!
Bizzy..... let's face it....you are worried mate. Didn't that new F-50 app die a quick death?! I mean really darling boy.... the cake is a lot larger than you think. Let somebody else have a slice you greedy bugger!!! ;-)

springbokflyer145

28th Mar 2012, 01:14

TWOTBAGS: You stated 'I have been here since 1996 when PPRuNe was a two forum email BBS'

Thats great mate but One question for you. How come your JOIN DATE is MAY 2001 :=

You dont need to answer that.

BizzyBody: not comparing the 2 companies but stating that Virgin did have a fleet of 10 B747 400's when they started. I hope that JetGo all the way.
:ok:Laters

Seaeagle109

28th Mar 2012, 03:22

Springbokflyer145,

Perhaps, like me, he had to re-register at some stage; from memory, back around the late '90s/2000 I changed service providers and also had a bit of a computer meltdown/virus, hence a new email address, which at the time required a re-registration. Anyway, I think that's why I re-registered, as my original joining date was around late'98/early'99.

Seaeagle109

"A man's character is his fate" Heraclitus, 535-475BC

scooterboy83

28th Mar 2012, 05:51

Landed Brissy!

falconx

29th Mar 2012, 04:28

sitting in cooly "because its cheaper fees"

tourismman

29th Mar 2012, 06:02

Still in BNE when i saw it a few hours ago !

falconx

29th Mar 2012, 06:19

Quite a few flights, not bad for someone that doesn't have an AOC yet

gobbledock

29th Mar 2012, 11:43

Now now GADRIVR, no taunting please. Otherwise I may snipe you from behind a sand dune or hill and fire a few shots across the bow of your little piston rig!

TBM-Legend

29th Mar 2012, 20:25

The real challenge will be running a single ship operation [at this stage] and keeping the customer happy when she goes tech...what do you x-hire to cover this baby?

flying-spike

29th Mar 2012, 21:41

You don't an AOC for private flights. You only need that when you start conducting revenue flights or training. Positioning flights can be conducted as private ops. Obviously enthusiasm is filling the knowledge and experience void. A dangerous precondition for a start up.

TWOTBAGS

30th Mar 2012, 02:51

Time to grab the tiller and set the ship straight again for those that obviously have no idea about ferry flights, training flights, proving flights, private flights and commercial operations.

JetGo have been conducting both training and proving flights with CASA on board observing the crew actions are in accordance with their published manuals.

As the company is yet to get its AOC, it is quite obvious that the training and proving flights are conducted as a private operation.

These flights have taken in multiple ports and sectors where the crew have been observed in real world operating conditions. Cobham did it a few weeks back when they brought the 717 back to Brisbane. Tiger did numerous flights to satisfy the above requirements (twice now) all as a private operation until they received their AOC.

What these guys are doing is not easy, if it was everyone would have a jet AOC. The reality is that you can count on one hand the number of new jet AOC's that have been issued by CASA in the last 2 decades.

So think before you make that next key stroke, the JetGo boys and girls are hard at work actually doing it, as opposed to the vast majority who have a word but dont have a show.

If you feel like shooting down your fellow aviators from the sideline with biased or as displayed in this thread, by a distinct lack of knowledge.
Then sure if it makes you feel like a big man have a dig, but you only look like a friday night fool in front of everyone else here.

Play the Ball, Not the Man. and right now, the JetGo boys are the only ones playing the Ball. To date they have been hitting 6's out of the park with not a peep from the department, which is a lot more than most people can say.

Actions speak a lot louder than words and JetGo are letting their plane do the talking.:ok:

CaptCaveman

30th Mar 2012, 02:52

“……………Obviously enthusiasm is filling the knowledge and experience void. A dangerous precondition for a start up.” flying-spike, Post#116

What monumental arrogance and ignorance is this load of cr@p statement? A previous poster says, probably after checking Flight Aware or similar:

“Quite a few flights, not bad for someone that doesn't have an AOC yet” Falconx, Post# 113

and the "flying-spike" is jumping to a conclusion about JetGo’s knowledge base and experience levels. Maybe these flights were with CASA to pass the various requirements for the AOC? For example, Check Approvals, Proving Flights, etc? It takes time to jump through all of CASA’s hoops, multiple flights are part of the process.

Really, Spike, that’s just a downright insult to the experience and professionalism of the crews flying the aircraft and the guys setting up JetGo. You might get away with questioning the advisability of establishing the operation, which is a fair question, but to infer these guys are setting up a dangerous operation is really bad form. You’ve crossed the line with that inference. You really need to apologise to the crews for that one!

The Caveman

Seaeagle109

30th Mar 2012, 03:32

flying-spike,

I've always tried too, as Twotbags says, "play the ball not the man" on this forum but you're sorely tempting me to say something very insulting about you after your last statement regarding the "knowledge and experience void" about your fellow aviation professionals.

I don't know about you but I believe that you give other aviation professionals the courtesy of professional respect until they prove to you beyond doubt that they're not worthy of it.

The crews flying the JetGo aircraft have not, as far as I know, shown any lack of experience or knowledge; if they have please enlighten us all, if not then I think you need to acknowledge that you have created an erroreous idea about their professional abilities and knowledge.

The idea that the people establishing JetGo are creating something dangerous because you don't think it's a good idea or business plan is very unprofessional and discourteous.

Sure, have at them as much as you like about whether they'll suceed or fail, and their aircraft choices but you've really impuned their reputations over their supposed lack of experience and knowledge with out any just reason.

Seaeagle109

"A man's character is his fate" Heraclitus, 535-475BC

Jetgo Management

30th Mar 2012, 05:28

Correct TBM-Legend.. Very Valid Comment, Where do we get back up aircraft! We have a few allies in the industry and will rely on them until we manage to go through the saga of importing aircraft 2 , 3 and 4 over the next 12 months.. Until then we agree, we will no doubt experience teething problems.

For those others of you out there that choose to sprout 'crap' about safety, and privacy of the companies officers and affairs ( You know who you are), I believe the real professionals following on this forum have already 'outed' you as being the clowns you really are.. Yes, we are in the midst of prooving flights, our crew are doing an excellent job thus far of getting through this daunting task. Thanks for the support guys, We always welcome help and advice!

flying-spike

30th Mar 2012, 07:02

My remarks are aimed at those that spruke that an AOC is required for the operations thus far, those that would pretend to know what is required for a start up. They are the type who would flounder. The remarks not aimed at JetGo who are obviously doing what is needed.

Lester Burnham

30th Mar 2012, 12:17

If JetGo are looking for respect why don't they reveal a little about themselves and their background? If you are relying on JR as your only front man can you seriously expect respect?

At this point in time they have no AOC, no clients and only JR as a front man. Some of us may know they have progressed a little further, but why would anyone else?

In all seriousness, you don't help yourself crapping on about aircraft 2, 3 & 4 in these circumstances. Your competition aren't dickheads either, I don't know anyone in the 30+ seat market in QLD that I would be so cocky about taking on.

I guess I am about to be threatened with libel now....

PPRuNeUser0182

30th Mar 2012, 14:06

If you are relying on JR as your only front man can you seriously expect respect?

:E :yuk: .....

tourismman

1st Apr 2012, 01:22

Why wouldn't you advertise on here Oracle, believe it or not there may be some non clowns on this site looking for a job .
JetGo management all the best .

GADRIVR

1st Apr 2012, 02:44

"there may be some non clowns on this site"

Well now....THAT is a truly wonderous case of wishful thinking!!!
I for one would love to see Jetgo prosper....and why not? The naysayers however here seem to be quite sure of the accuracy of their statements and good for them. I didn't realise there were so many aviation experts in this industry and in particular experts who have a detailed working knowledge of a start ups finances, business plan and client base?!?!!? On top of that they have the power of foreseeing the future...goodness!!
WOW....I'm gunna get me some of these experts together and take over an airline...Qantas looks like a likley target...or maybe Jetstar...perhaps they could even help restart Ansett!!! Whooowee...think of the cash that wiil start flowing in once I have these boys onboard. Of coarse the vast majority of that cash will go to the people that truly have earnt it...the pilots of course. Those steely eyed men .....and women with the right stuff who as we all know alone possess the intellectual power to ensure that the enterprise will become an instant success due no doubt to their superiour skills in....well....thats where I get a little lost however....no matter, press on. Please come work for me oh high priests of all things aviation...I like a lot of others with dreams of making a fortune in this industry need you now!!!:ok:
Clowns indeed!:E

my oleo is extended

1st Apr 2012, 09:07

Seems like GADRVR certainly has some emotional issues of some sort?
Yet again it would appear that unless all the posts are positive and backslapping good then some posters cannot emotionally handle criticism?
This thread actually contains a combination of positive and negative comments, some assclownery an yet some pretty savvy experienced comments.
Why can't the good and the bad be accepted by both sides?
And GADRVR there are actually some people who post on prune the are not just pilots and engineers only. There are actually experienced aviation managers, technical experts, successful business people, legal aviators, industry developers, regulatory experienced people and a host of highly skilled individuals, so some of the posts may just turn out to be well and truly in the money.....not everybody has the ability to think outside the box.

GADRIVR

1st Apr 2012, 09:35

Yep...you got it in one. I'm emotionally unstable!!

Just a quickie;

"Why can't the good and the bad be accepted by both sides?"

Because the "bad " exhibited here is generally laughable, more than likely libelous and generally off the money.

As for your host of highly skilled odds and sods posting on Pprune...that may well be true however I'd hazard the suggestion that perhaps they are found in other forums.
Now if you'll excuse me, it's time to take the medicine I so obviously need to settle down some.
Cheers,
Drivr

gobbledock

1st Apr 2012, 22:41

The naysayers however here seem to be quite sure of the accuracy of their statements and good for them. I didn't realise there were so many aviation experts in this industry and in particular experts who have a detailed working knowledge of a start ups finances, business plan and client base?!?!!?
Are you serious GADRVR? I think you would be surprised at who grace the prune pages. The website was created for pilots but has progressively expanded and has a stack of punters with various backgrounds commenting. There are a number of experienced pilots on here with literaly decades of flying/managerial/business experience mate.

Yep...you got it in one. I'm emotionally unstable!!
At least you are honest.

falconx

5th Apr 2012, 12:25

What's the latest?

my oleo is extended

5th Apr 2012, 13:09

Latest is GADRVR popped some neurons, had a melt down and is now scoffing 600 mgs of Lithium per day!!

Barry Mundy

12th Apr 2012, 05:09

Hi Jetgo Management.

Whats the latest. Is the AOC in process? when's blast off?

Jetgo Management

12th Apr 2012, 12:14

Hi Barry, Been a busy few weeks! We having our final proving flight next week with CASA. Fingers crossed all goes well.. We were a little held up with Maintenance systems of all things, but fixed now. Crew and Training all signed off, So all going well we hope to be operational in about 2 weeks from now. Its been a long and trying process, and we are fortunate to be working with great people, both within our own organisation and contractors alike. Additionally, CASA have been very pro-active in helping us along the way.. Thanks all for the support along the way, we hope to be in the air soon,

We are stoked to be able to offer more jobs for aviators like ourselves within the industry... :ok:

Barry Mundy

13th Apr 2012, 00:23

Thanks

All the very best.

falconx

19th Apr 2012, 01:26

Hope all goes well for the proving flight but unfortunately did not as the F/A couldn't close the door of which in turn meant an engineer had to be flown up from YSSY. Any updates, and toll doing your engineering?

prat985

19th Apr 2012, 02:51

Expat here seeking some intelligence about this Jetgo startup. Any payscale info, benefits, living costs, QOL issues???
Thanks

Jetgo Management

19th Apr 2012, 03:51

Yes Falconx you are correct... Murphy's Law and Aviation! Turns out the door was slightly out of alignment and required engineering to adjust and lubricate it .. Our first sector was completed with flying colours, thanks to all the volunteer students from Air Acadamy Australia for being good sports. Sorry we didnt get to finish the ride!.:ugh:

All planned again for next week to finish off what we didn't complete. Those whom want to come along again for a free lunch and a ride please PM me..

As for TOLL, we were simply hiring their hanger for the day. We utilize the guys at Execujet for all our MX, they do a great job and offer top service.

Thanks for the interest and support guys. As for the above post re terms and conditions, please PM me

prat985

19th Apr 2012, 12:43

Any intelligence about the pay and benefits with this startup would be appreciated..

falconx

24th Apr 2012, 03:45

Re: Jetgo E135 (http://www.jetspotter.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13119&start=15#p102546)

http://www.jetspotter.com/forum/phpBB3/styles/prosilver/imageset/icon_post_target.gif (http://www.jetspotter.com/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=102546#p102546)by lloyd fox (http://www.jetspotter.com/forum/phpBB3/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=71) » Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:22 pm
First of all Eddie i missed you today, but i spoke to the lady at Adagold who said you were in earlier.

The flight on JetGo was good with a few drills .Went north to Taroom and west to Oakey and then in on RWY 19.

70 MINS IN THE AIR.

Very Thankful to Arron and Jason for the opportunity. http://www.jetspotter.com/forum/phpBB3/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

David and me had a great flight.

tourismman

24th Apr 2012, 05:13

Yes JetGo have passed their proving flight today and congratulations to them on their hard work.The AOC will be issued in the next few days.

Well Done.:ok:

CaptCaveman

24th Apr 2012, 06:13

I saw a strange site at the airport today, several people walking around with egg on their faces and I wondered what had happened. Then I remembered:

“Has anybody heard yet whether this BARS accredited outfit has received its AOC yet?” Cactusjack, Post#81, 22 Feb 2012

Yes, they’ve completed all the CASA checks, been issued with their AOC, just waiting for CASA to finish the paperwork (i.e. type the bloody thing out) and it’s all go for operations to start. I believe the BARS accreditation is their next task, which should be a relative doddle as our PPRuNe experts seem think it’s a crap accreditation.

“I assure you that they will not be operating under their own HC AOC in Q1 of this year CASA dont move that quick”. Bizzybody, post #20, 16 Jan 2012

Apparently they (CASA) can, if you’ve been working on an AOC for a year or more, and that just doesn’t mean the time the application has been with CASA, but I suppose they (JetGo) just didn’t feel it was necessary to tell everybody of their plans. Three weeks after the end of Q1 2012 to be sure, but damned close. Or about right if you’re working with, or more likely against, a government department. As the saying goes, “Close enough for Government work”; or is it all a failure in the eyes of all our self proclaimed resident experts because of a few days delay in getting the AOC issued? Let’s be fair, getting an AOC off CASA isn’t that bloody easy. Well done, and now if it all does go to the wall, at least you’ll have an asset for the receivers to help payout the liabilities.

“If their SMS is based solely on BARS then you can expect CASA to 'snicker in the corner and hold back the laughter' when they reveiw your SMS” Cactus Jack, post #33, 24 Jan 2012

I suppose that CASA must have been satisfied with their SMS, as apparently there was no snickering to be heard; it complied with CASA’s requirements. Who’d have thought that JetGo might be able to get that organised? They did apparently and got it done to CASA’s satisfaction.

“Had a look at their website and it is full of promise. No aircraft, No Pilots, No AOC, everything is promised.” flying-spike, Post #34, 24 Jan 2012

Not only promised but delivered, and if the rumours I’m hearing are correct, on time (give or take a couple of days) and on budget as well, who’d have thought it possible. Not these posters obviously:

“I smell a rat...If it is who I think it is, then he really needs to have the butterfly net sent after him!” Fuel-Off, post#8, 24 Nov 2011

“This is all sounds like a windup” Megle2, Post#53, 28 Jan 2012

“If this isn't a windup, what's the bet that the individual with the initials D.C., ex Skyairworld is involved?” flying-spike, Post#54, 28 Jan 2012

“And finaly, as for BARS being JetGo's benchmark, what can is say but 'oh dear'. To date this new start company has a lot of blowflies hanging around it.” My oleo is extended, Post#55, 28 Jan 2012

I reckon the blowflies that you’re hearing are probably those attracted to the egg on your faces, or maybe by the stink of the some of the bull**** that’s been spouted, as alleged “expert” advice and opinion on this thread.

“……………Obviously enthusiasm is filling the knowledge and experience void. A dangerous precondition for a start up.” flying-spike, Post#116, 29 Mar 2012

“Really, Spike, that’s just a downright insult to the experience and professionalism of the crews flying the aircraft and the guys setting up JetGo. You might get away with questioning the advisability of establishing the operation, which is a fair question, but to infer these guys are setting up a dangerous operation is really bad form.” CaptCaveman, post#118, 30 Mar 2012

Again, I know it’s arrogance quoting myself, but again, I can’t arsed rephrasing it or retyping it. You still really do need to apologise for that one Spike, as your attempted correction and justification was piss weak!

“….I offer you the following quote from the Nobel Prize winning physicist and father of quantum mechanics and it's uncertainty principle, Dr. Werner Heisenberg - "An expert is someone who knows some of the worst mistakes that can be made in his subject, and how to avoid them." The Oracle, Post#94, 25 Mar 2012

Could it be that these guys are well aware of the mistakes made by others and have avoided them; so far at least? Who’d have thought that it would be possible for anybody but the self proclaimed oracles of PPRuNe to know anything about aviation?

“I know their leased aircraft is in town. I know they took Photos of an all white plane claiming to be theirs. I know that it's also not their money, I know it's not their balls on the line and I know their application has not been in with CASA for over a year. I know a lot more about AM and JR's little operation than you think.” Bizzybody, Post#99, 25 Mar 2012

Apparently not mate, apparently you know sweet FA. I note you haven’t backed up your claims as you’ve been challenged to do; inability, or maybe a testicular problem, had yours cut off perhaps? And in case you hadn’t noticed, there are now plenty of photos of the aircraft in JetGo Australia colours, and were even when you posted that comment, or haven’t you picked up on that yet?

“Given that Alliance OWN all their aircraft outright and have a pretty firm grip on the resources market at the moment for those who want jets, I'm struggling why anyone would think they can really compete with them” Morno, Post#89, 09 Mar 2012

Well, that’s a fair question but then again, established businesses everywhere have been challenged by start-ups since the world of commerce and industry began, and it’ll go on until commerce and industry is finished. Which in Australia’s case, will be very soon, if we go on as we’re going for a few more years without individuals backing themselves, and their ideas, but instead listening to the self proclaimed experts telling them it can’t be done, or that they can’t compete.

“I can see this failing, Ozjet, Sky, Strategic, Air Australia” Engineer aus, Post#88, 09 Mar 2012

Not quite the same is it? From memory; Ozjet, initially a Business class only operation between the big cities, then changed all that when it didn’t quite work; Sky, don’t know, wasn’t around at the time; Strategic/Air Australia, initially a government contract but then international RPT. JetGo Australia, FIFO and charter, not quite the same surely? Will they succeed or will they fail, who knows? I don’t.

“Why apply for a job with a company that has such an obviously unsustainable business plan?” The Oracle, Post#51, 28 Jan 2012

Is it unsustainable? You’ve made statements about their supposed plan and what you think they’re doing but do you actually know what it is, or how they’re planning on executing it? Are you on the inside, have you got the good oil, the straight gen, are you directly involved with the JetGo management, are you an investor? If not, then you’re just speculating, or are you like Bizzybody, and making statements that you can’t seem to actually back up? If you are on the inside, then you seem to be acting against your own interests.

Oracle, you do seem to have made plenty of good points regarding the relative merits of turboprops versus jets in this type of operation but it doesn’t appear as though you, and others, have grasped that they’ve seen an opportunity, a niche as it were,

“Not every customer needs 100 seats, nor do they want to go 400 miles.” Twotbags, Post#96, 25 Mar 2012

and are having a red hot go at filling it, whilst providing employment opportunities in the aviation industry. Does this happen? That a company, or person, finds an unexploited niche in a highly competitive industry and succeeds? Yes, there’s lots of very rich people in this world that have done just that; my current employer, did just that and has been raking the money in for years, which provides me with a very nice aircraft to operate, other people are trying to copy him, and his ideas, but not quite succeeding, and I’m bloody glad that they’re not succeeding because I love my current ride. Conversely, there are plenty of people that have done their dough when the niche hasn’t been there after all. Will that be the case for JetGo? Who knows, not me, and probably not you and the resident PPRuNe experts.

As the man on TV used to say “You’ve got to be in it, to win it”, so apply for a job or not, its “big boy’s rules” in this life, you have to make your own decisions and live with them, however things turn out. If you want an iron clad, guaranteed job for life that’ll bore the sh!t out of most aviation professionals, join the Public (dis)Service (RAAF sharps & the military helicopter operators excepted, as that’s the fun side of government employment), but now, these days, even the BS PS isn’t a dead cert.

“.....not everybody has the ability to think outside the box.” My oleo is extended, post#126, 01 Apr 2012

Very true. Can JetGo be thinking outside the school of conventional aviation thought? Maybe they are and that’s why there are so many doubters expressing their view on this thread but just because it’s not your particular way of thinking doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Is it wrong to believe that their business plan might work where others have failed? Just because another company failed using Jungle Jets doesn’t mean another can’t succeed, does it? There are plenty of instances in aviation where a particular idea hasn’t been as successful as originally hoped but later succeeded, e.g. Northrop’s “Flying Wing” in the 40/50’s and the B2 bomber.

Now waiting with bated breathe for the negative comments to come pouring in from the usual suspects, those who can’t see that not everyone sees the World and aviation as they see it, and that there are opportunities in this World for those with balls enough to back themselves; or those who don’t believe what JetGo believe, so therefore JetGo must be wrong, as they couldn’t possibly be wrong; or those who claim to be worried that it’ll all fail, and the World will end for those poor unfortunate souls that have, or will take, a punt by accepting a job with JetGo, just like it supposedly did for them when they were in a failed company; personally, been there, done that, got through it as they did, and anyone else will, if JetGo finishes tits up.

JetGo Management, investors and staff: Bon Chance, Mon Amis, Bon Chance! (A tip of my hat to this comment)

“When I read the publicity I hear an African-French accent. Pourquoi?” Horatio Leafblower, post #66, 01 Feb 2012

Again, apparently not; no, just a couple of Aussie blokes having a crack. One with a Shire accent and the other with a Queensland one, eh mate.

"There are those that make things happen;
those that watch things happen;
and those that wonder what happened... which one are you? ", Chocks Away (on a different thread)

Will it be me with the egg on my face if, or when, they fail? Who knows, however, I’d rather have that happen after I believed in giving some one the benefit of the doubt when they’re having a go and backing their ideas, rather than after knocking them and subsequently being proved wrong when they succeed.

As always, there’s two ways of looking at everything:

“Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!” Kelly’s Heroes, 1970

Which way do you look at the World?

The Caveman

My glass is half full and as always, it’s your shout mate!

(N.B. All quotes, with their spelling and grammar errors, lifted directly from the posts identified and hopefully in correct APA style; just for you Spikey)

chimbu warrior

24th Apr 2012, 06:28

Obtaining an AOC is a significant achievement, and reflects a lot of effort and commitment.

Congratulations and good luck.

grrowler

24th Apr 2012, 06:30

Well.... CaptCaveman has just blown his load:ooh:
A little prematurely I would say, as getting an AOC is hardly the money shot.

Jetgo Management

24th Apr 2012, 06:56

Wow, thanks for the Short Novel Caveman:) Yes what you say is correct, we today had our proving flight passed, AOC is now "In the mail" We should see commercial operations hopefully over the next week or so!

Was it an easy task.....Hell no!..... Would I attempt it again...No Chance!... But its done, and as Caveman mentioned, on time and budget ( give or take 3 weeks) as promised on our web site from late last year. A big thanks to all the staff at Jetgo that have pulled on years of industry experience to make this happen as it did!. Additionally a big thank you to all our contractors out their in their own specialized fields such as Safety Management and Maintenance Control and Ground handling and catering to name a few. A Special big thanks to the Staff at Brisbane Jet Base and AHA ground handling at Rockhampton for the help offered. ( Thanks Lyle for baby sitting our passengers for the day when we tech'd last week!)

PPruner's, thanks for following the thread, I see the critics have formed their own opinion and that's fine! Keep an eye out soon for our "Not so crap" website:rolleyes:

flying-spike

24th Apr 2012, 07:19

“Really, Spike, that’s just a downright insult to the experience and professionalism of the crews flying the aircraft and the guys setting up JetGo. You might get away with questioning the advisability of establishing the operation, which is a fair question, but to infer these guys are setting up a dangerous operation is really bad form.” CaptCaveman, post#118, 30 Mar 2012

You should also quote the subsequent post which clarifies the target of my comment.
To the Jet Go people:
Well done getting the AOC, I know how much work goes into it. Now your sites will be set on my making it pay and I genuinely hope you make a success of it.
As for your SMS, I hope you can make the move from a manual and intent to process in practice.
It would be privilege to be at the helm of the SMS when you have the ability to shape the safety culture of the organisation from scratch. All the best.

my oleo is extended

25th Apr 2012, 00:21

Being granted an AOC is one thing, keeping it is another.

Spike, your tongue has turned a shade of brown old son!

CaptCaveman

25th Apr 2012, 07:08

grrowler

I may have shot that load but don’t worry mate, there’s plenty more in the Bag(s), I’m not a one shot wonder. [No, that’s not a spelling error folks, just a nod and wink to the nickname of one of the JetGo principles] From the tone of your posts you’re obviously a “Glass half empty” kind of person.

However, to extend your sexual metaphor; it’s good to hear from the JetGo Management that the JetGo people are working together for a satisfactory outcome, I guess they’re all pulling together as a team for the money shot, where as you’re probably a solo kind of guy.

JetGo Management

My pleasure, I get bored.

flying-spike

No, I didn’t feel the need to include your next post, or it’s context, as even though you clarified who your were speaking too, although that was as clear as mud in the original and highlighted post, you still haven’t actually said sorry for the inference that you felt the need to clarify. That was the point of the jibe. However, if you feel the clarification was enough, then I guess we can agree to disagree, as is both our privilege.

It is interesting to note however, the change in the tone of your posts about JetGo as the thread has progressed; I almost thought your concluding paragraph was hinting at wanting a job. Don’t worry, I understood the real intent, if you’re in the SMS field, a fresh start company would be good, as you don’t have to change entrenched attitudes and practises, and deal with old smartarses like me.

My oleo is extended

Perhaps the reason it’s so difficult to obtain an AOC from CASA is that it takes rather a lot for them to revoke an AOC these days.

Do you have any “real” reason to believe JetGo will lose their AOC after putting in all the hard yards to be issued with an AOC? Or was your rather oblivious and easy rejoinder an attempt to justify your views on JetGo and perhaps to salve your ego?

The Caveman

Retiring not to my cave but a floating paradise, where perhaps I’ll be transformed into shark **** instead of just being a ****, some of you can only hope, see you next week.

flying-spike

25th Apr 2012, 07:45

1. I don't apologize for you grasping at the wrong end of the pineapple.

2. You have to read and understand who the barbs were aimed at, a braggard SMS snake oil salesman and the armchair critics who obviously didn't know what you can and can't do when you haven't yet got an AOC
.
3. I want a job with Jet Go? You are freaking joking! Let me say that again in case you are too thick (a fair chance) to understand. I don't choose who I work for or with based on a gamble and a shiny new aeroplane. I say again I wish them every success.

Stationair8

25th Apr 2012, 08:34

Funny business aviation.

my oleo is extended

25th Apr 2012, 12:49

Aagh yes Captcaveman and his knee-jerk emotional posts.
You seem to feel that I am hinting that JetGo may lose it's AOC? How odd indeed. Go back and read what I wrote as your emotions have clouded your synapsis. I quite simply said it is easier to obtain an AOC than to keep it. Nothing personal in that mate. But of course If anybody posts anything here that is anything short of praiseworthy or completely 'for' JetGo you have a shot at them.
Obtaining an entry level AOC is a relarively short process, keeping it is a long term process, that applies to any airline.
I agree with Spike, you are grasping the wrong end of the pineapple. Anyway enjoy your management meetings with JetGo management, all your posts indicate an already close active relationship!

flying-spike

25th Apr 2012, 23:37

I reckon you are on the money Oleo. Captain Caveman would appear to be prone to lash out at any perceived negative comment about JetGo in order to justify his decision to join them.
They will need more than blind faith and enthusiasm to stay in the air and hopefully operating at a profit. If he can't sort wheat from chaff now what would he be like when he is put under pressure in the cockpit?

Jetgo Management

26th Apr 2012, 00:38

Obtaining an entry level AOC is a relarively short process:rolleyes:

Really ! Maybe we should have asked for one of those instead!

my oleo is extended

26th Apr 2012, 01:05

JetGo management
Really ! Maybe we should have asked for one of those instead!
You did!! I have set up a number of AOC's and know the process very well. It is a relatively short process indeed, and takes around about 12 months as an average. Indeed a short process compared with a potential 10, 20+ years operating. The process is not without hard work but relatively straight forward if you are competent and know what you are doing, and know doubt 'Captcaveman the pineapple king' would have been thoroughly versed in this process (except perhaps aircraft door opening?).

Spike
If he can't sort wheat from chaff now what would he be like when he is put under pressure in the cockpit?I think he would end up reaching for the tissue box and handing over to the F/O as he does appear to be somewhat opinionated and emotional.

CaptCaveman

29th Apr 2012, 20:58

Jeez, a bloke has a quite weekend away and it’s like coming home and finding the kids have run amok.

flying-spike

How wide do you want to throw those barbs? Your original post, where I supposedly “grasped the wrong end of the pineapple”, was not target specific, you did clarify your comment and acknowledged that JetGo appeared to be getting the job done, as I’ve acknowledged, but you did not have the good grace to concede that the original post wasn’t clear and appeared to cast aspersions on the JetGo people, their experience and knowledge, and that it could have caused offence to those individuals, for that, I believe an apology is warranted. You obviously disagree, and as I said, that’s your privilege. But, to come back a second time and add an additional target, “a braggard SMS snake oil salesman”, who hadn’t posted for awhile before your comment, smacks of desperation to justify your miss thrown barb and possibly, an inability to admit an error or apologise if you’ve inadvertently or unintentionally caused offence. Is sorry, really the hardest word for you in those circumstances?

Now, as to whether I’m too thick to realise that you don’t want a job with JetGo, as I pointed out, I got that you didn’t, as I said, “I almost thought” but you did sound like you were changing your tune with regard to JetGo. You also stated that, “It would be privilege to be at the helm of the SMS when you have the ability to shape the safety culture of the organisation from scratch”, I did understand that you were thinking wistfully about such an opportunity, not asking for a job; but even your mate thought you were kissing JetGo’s arse.

My oleo is extended

I did read, and reread, your post, and I thought it was a glib and flippant comment designed to belittle JetGo’s achievement in gaining an AOC and I’m an expert (self proclaimed of course, in true Pprune tradition) in smartarse comments, as I make them all the time, but you blokes don’t seem to have picked up on that fact. So yeah, I reckon it was a comment aimed at JetGo maybe not being able to keep their new AOC. No personal offence taken by me though mate.

“an entry level AOC”, well I’ll bow to your expertise on this, as I’ve never been involved in helping any company obtain an AOC, contrary to the suspicions you, and flying-spike, hold. But I would have thought, being a non AOC procurement expert, unlike you who’s apparently been involved in the process multiple times, that perhaps an AOC for say, SE Pistons doing Aerial Work, would be generally thought of as an entry level type AOC, with High Capacity RPT being the top of the AOC pile, and JetGo’s new AOC, as being somewhere in between those levels of achievement.

So, I checked CASA’s website, out of interest, to see how many companies have an AOC with the privileges that I’ve heard JetGo will enjoy; Jet, International Operations, Charter and High Capacity (not positive about the HC, so I won’t quote the number on that); out of the 600 companies with a charter AOC, there were only 79 with Charter >5700kg (necessary for Jungle Jet operations if any readers are unfamiliar with JetGo’s aircraft), 68 with International Ops and 33 with Jet. Now as some of those 600 companies hold all of those privileges, and some of the 600 don’t operate either jets or aircraft over 5700kgs to the best of my knowledge, it would still appear that the total numbers who hold all the privileges that JetGo is rumoured to have gained, to be a small percentage of the 600. So, I filtered the search and it appears there are only 30 out of 600 that hold those 3 privileges, or 5%, I could of course have incorrectly filtered the AOC holders and will stand corrected if I have got the numbers wrong. I guess if JetGo have got High Capacity on their AOC, as rumoured as well, then that’ll be an even smaller percentage. I’ll go out on a limb and say that JetGo have actually achieved a lot more than only “an entry level AOC” (not a term CASA seems to use on their website, that I can find anyway), I suspect you’ll disagree, as is your privilege of course. I’d also guess that all our fellow Ppruners will soon be able to determine for themselves whether JetGo’s AOC is only a lowly “entry level AOC”, or perhaps a somewhat higher achievement than you’ve indicated, when the details are published on the CASA website in the next week or so, for all to view, and then perhaps workout for themselves how a high percentage of AOC holders actually enjoy the privileges that JetGo is rumoured to have obtained.

Now Boys,

Do I work for JetGo? No, guess again. I do know some, but not all, of the players who were involved on both sides of getting the AOC issued, as many Ppruners also would. You meet and work with lots of people over the years, and Australian Aviation isn’t that big, but that doesn’t mean you have a close relationship, either personal or professional with them, does it? I haven’t had any direct contact with some of the players I’ve heard mentioned, for up to 20 years. So, no JetGo Management meetings for me, I loathe having to attend my company’s meetings now; KPIs, operating costs, etc, BORING!

Do I have a go at anyone who’s less than positive about JetGo? I don’t think I have actually had a go at “all” those people but you’re free to disagree, though I’m sure having fun throwing a few barbs out of my own at some of you nay sayer’s and people making statements with either no basis, or an inability to defend their statements when challenged. I barrack for the underdog, always have, always will, and I love stirring the possum; that’s why I joined this little game. Do I know if JetGo is going to succeed or not? No, reread what I’ve said in previous posts, I just wish JetGo well, hope that they do succeed, and as always, I back the battler having a go.

Am I an emotional kneejerker (have I just made up a word?), who crumbles under pressure in the cockpit, well I’ll leave that up to the people who’ve actually flown with me, and the check and trainers, who’ve been putting me under the usual pressure for all these years; that’s for them to answer. Opinionated, of course, I’m a pilot, I kind of thought that it goes with the territory. I tell you what, if having a go at me gets your fluids circulating and helps you, figuratively, extended your personal oleos while doing it, have at it, I’m a big boy; I do hope that your oleo extension isn’t literal though while having a go at me.

FYI, the last time I needed a tissue in the cockpit and had to handover, was a few years ago now, when I had to wipe the drool off my chin after seeing one of the new glamours working down the back and before going to have a chat with her. Sorry, female FA’s, I’ve got to stop being a Neanderthal Caveman…………. narr, bugger that!

I will say in my defence though, I do know how to open most aircraft doors, you kind of pick that up over the years, but I can’t positively say that about a Jungle Jet, as I’m not endorsed, so fair point to you Oleo.

The Caveman

P.S. Boys, it’s nice to see Spike that Oleo has forgiven your positive JetGo comments, and Spike that you’ve forgotten Oleo’s “brown tongue” comment, as that tongue wouldn’t have been fun when, as you again seem to be, figuratively speaking, “swapping warm spit in the showers” (Clint Eastwood, Heartbreak Ridge). I truly don’t want to know if it’s actually physical though, as that would be a hideous image, unless you’re 2 women of course; in which case, please post some pictures :E.

slice

29th Apr 2012, 23:35

:ooh: A lot of emotional attachment there for someone who doesn't work for Jetgo. :uhoh:

flying-spike

30th Apr 2012, 00:22

Glad to see Oleo and I have caused you to waste a few more precious breaths.
As for Oleo, I have worked with him and he is a professional. It is not uncommon for he and I to exchange a few lighthearted barbs (but never spit). You are obviously the self opinionated, egomaniac pilot prig that we picked you to be. It has been fun playing with you.

my oleo is extended

30th Apr 2012, 01:08

Caveman, indeed welcome back to 'the game'. I thought it would be fun to pair up with Spike considering your pairing up with Jetgo Management.

Now I must say that your waffle about entry level AOC blah blah was so messy that I will pass on making comment. I do agree that 'time will tell' in relation to JetGo's success. Besides, the more that we all banter on about JetGo then the more free publicity the brand gets, so that must be good for the industry, yes?
A couple of things,
I do hope that your oleo extension isn’t literal though while having a go at me. Don't flatter yourself. Sorry to dissapoint you but the answer is 'no'.

FYI, the last time I needed a tissue in the cockpit and had to handover, was a few years ago now, when I had to wipe the drool off my chin after seeing one of the new glamours working down the back and before going to have a chat with her. Same thing happenned to me once. But I learned to contain my drool and save it for the post flight activities.

slice,A lot of emotional attachment there for someone who doesn't work for Jetgo.
Agreed. A lot of emotional waffle spoken by Caveman. I think an injection of testosterone and some prozac and lithium may get him back on track. Last thing an airline needs is an emotionally unstable pilot at the helm.

P.S. Boys, it’s nice to see Spike that Oleo has forgiven your positive JetGo comments, and Spike that you’ve forgotten Oleo’s “brown tongue” comment, as that tongue wouldn’t have been fun when, as you again seem to be, figuratively speaking, “swapping warm spit in the showers” (Clint Eastwood, Heartbreak Ridge). I truly don’t want to know if it’s actually physical though, as that would be a hideous image, unless you’re 2 women of course; in which case, please post some pictures I'm glad Spike has a sense of humour. It would appear that although worlds apart we are able to jab serious or stirring comments at each other with no hard feelings or 'emotional scarring'. Caveman you could learn a lesson.

You are obviously the self opinionated, egomaniac pilot prig that we picked you to be. It has been fun playing with you.
Spike, you know him well !

The first edition of H.W. Fowler's Modern English Useage has the following definition:
A prig is a believer in red tape; that is, he exalts the method above the work done. A prig, like the Pharisee, says: "God, I thank thee that I am not as other men are"—except that he often substitutes Self for God. A prig is one who works out his paltry accounts to the last farthing, while his millionaire neighbour lets accounts take care of themselves. A prig expects others to square themselves to his very inadequate measuring rod, and condemns them with confidence if they do not. A prig is wise beyond his years in all things that do not matter. A prig cracks nuts with a steamhammer: that is, calls in the first principles of morality to decide whether he may, or must, do something of as little importance as drinking a glass of beer. On the whole, one may, perhaps, say that all his different characteristics come from the combination, in varying proportions, of three things—the desire to do his duty, the belief that he knows better than other people, and blindness to the difference in value between different things.
The character of the prig was encapsulated in Charles Dickens portrait of the day-nurse Betsy Prig—capable of a "rapid change from banter to ferocity" but always referred to by night-nurse Sarah Gamp as "the best of creeturs"—in his novel Martin Chuzzlewit:
The best among us have their failings, and it must be conceded of
Mrs Prig, that if there were a blemish in the goodness of her disposition, it
was a habit she had of not bestowing all its sharp and acid properties upon her
patients (as a thoroughly amiable woman would have done), but of keeping a
considerable remainder for the service of her friends. Highly pickled salmon,
and lettuces chopped up in vinegar, may, as viands possessing some acidity of
their own, have encouraged and increased this failing in Mrs Prig; and every
application to the teapot certainly did; for it was often remarked of her by her
friends, that she was most contradictory when most elevated. It is certain that
her countenance became about this time derisive and defiant, and that she sat
with her arms folded, and one eye shut up, in a somewhat offensive, because
obstrusively [sic?] intelligent, manner.

CaptCaveman

30th Apr 2012, 07:51

flying-spike

Sorry to hear you’re leaving the game, I enjoyed the verbal jousting. Nice use of the English language though, I haven’t seen, or heard, anyone use the word “Prig” in a very long time, most people use much coarser terms these days. It was good of Oleo to include that explanation of the meaning of the word for those unfamiliar with it, but I probably would have gone for this definition from the online Urban Dictionary that includes a little Dickens as well,

"prig

Noun:
1. A person who demonstrates an exaggerated conformity or propriety, especially in an irritatingly arrogant or smug manner.
2. Chiefly British: A petty thief or pickpocket.
3. A person regarded as arrogant and annoying
4. Archaic: A conceited dandy; a fop.

Verb:
prigged, prig•ging, prigs Chiefly British
To steal or pilfer.

Synonym:
"If father was determined to make me either a Prig or a Mule, and I am not a Prig, why, it stands to reason, I must be a Mule." -Charles Dickens"

a bit more concise I think, but that’s probably my supposed priggishness.

I don’t think that I questioned Oleos professionalism, if I did, or you think I did, it was unintentional, sorry, as I thought I was merely questioning his opinion and his statement on the level of JetGo’s AOC, but it’s good to see that you defend others from perceived slights. It’s pity that you don’t see that could also be the case with some other comments on this thread.

My oleo is extended

Thanks for the welcome back; it was an enjoyable few days away.

Sorry if my comments and questions on JetGo’s AOC were too waffly for you, but I’m genuinely interested as to why you claim it’s merely “an entry level AOC”, when it appears to me to be not terribly common for an AOC holder to have the privileges that JetGo are rumoured to be about to enjoy and searching CASA’s website for any mention of “an entry level AOC”, doesn’t seem to yield any results. Is that clear enough for you? If so, in those famous words, “Please explain”, if you would be so good, why is it so?

Also, I’m glad to hear that you’ve learned to master your drool, me too, but it took a while in my case, slow learner I suppose, and glad to hear that you don’t find blokes attractive either, I actually didn’t think you would. I’ve just had a thought, terrible as it is to me and probably to you too, that we’ve perhaps got some things in common. That is a horrible thought, two aviation types who appear to hold opposing views possibly having the same, or similar, experiences. :yuk::yuk::yuk: Shock and horror, the end of the World is neigh! Oh, please don’t mistake that for an attempt to, as the Americans say, “Buddy up”, it’s not, it’s just a random thought.

The thing with the rush to prescribe pharmaceuticals to anyone you doesn’t agree with you is interesting though. Not enjoying the “Coffee houses” in Holland a bit too much and thinking you’re a Doctor, as well as being an AOC guru, are you? You want to stay off that weed mate; it’s not quite as benign as many believe from what I’ve seen and read; feel free to disagree if you will of course. We wouldn’t want either an emotionally unstable, or a self medicating pilot, at the controls, now would we? No, I know you wouldn’t be as unprofessional as to fly under the influence, so no problem for you there, only me supposedly.

Regarding the “no hard feelings or 'emotional scarring'”, none taken by me for any of the shots you and flying-spike are having at me, as I trust is the same with my questioning of your opinions and statements, although Spike seems to want to take his bat and ball and go home, pity, he was fun to play with, however neither of you seems to be getting the intended humour, again, pity. Perhaps I should use more emoticons to help you out but Spike told me previously they were juvenile. You’ll both have to try a lot harder if it’s personal animosity or, physiological damage, that you’re trying to achieve but I don’t actually think that you are, are you?

So, Oleo, yea of the AOC expertise, will you be so good as to explain your comments about JetGo’s AOC, or are questions from an emotionally scarred prig, who doesn’t really feel the need to team with anyone (see the arrogance part of the “Prig” definition) to get a rise out of you, Spike and others beneath your contempt?

I’m awaiting your next post with genuine interest; please educate me, and possibly others, who aren’t that familiar with the AOC issuance process or the various levels of AOC.

The Caveman

To steal another quote, “The victim of a bored God”, or a God awful bore, one or the other. I’ve got a feeling I know which of those options you and Spike will opt for Oleo. :):):):):)